Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

?

Thanks!

Aaron Fude

wrote:
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

?

Thanks!

Aaron Fude

G'day Aaron,
GMC have been around for awhile in Aust. Their tools are generally
regarded as good value for money. Remember there is not to much money
Tradesmen wouldn't be caught dead with them.
I have a GMC jigsaw. It's OK and probably as good as could be purchased
for the cash. I also have a GMC Platinum Circular saw and for $100.00
you couldn't ask for better. The 14.4v cordless GMC Drill,I was given is
completely different kettle of fish. It's not worth giving it away,
never mind paying for the thing.
My daughter thinks she did the right thing so it is kept in a prominent
position in the shed, but never used. The batteries hold their charge
for about an hour.

regards
John

Hi,

You will get several points of view regarding tool quality. The worst
part is the price difference between the cheap and the high end can be
as high as 10-20 fold. You can buy a jigsaw for 19.99$ and spend as
much as 240$. Where do you draw the line? What is a good purchase and
what's not?

Generally speaking I can say the following: If you're using your tools
on a fairly regular basis and you want to them to last long enough to
enjoy them for several years to come, I would say to stay away from all
the low end stuff. Aim for medium range well-known brand products like
DeWalt, Porter-Cable, Delta, Makita, Milwaukee, Bosch, Hitachi, and the
like and you won't be dissapointed. You will have a decent quality as
well as some level of precision not acheive by the cheap end tools.
Stay away from all the obvious cheap chinese imports.

On the other hand, if you need tools once a year and for 5 minutes each
time, go for the cheapest and they will last you a lifetime!

Hope this helps.

Beniboose


wrote:
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

?

Thanks!

Aaron Fude

Arron,

Your example of "good enough" is pretty darn entry level (from a price
perspective). As a general rule, I would say that the entry level price
point, in most tool categories, is going to be a quality crap shoot
(sometimes good buy, sometimes a waste).

I'm not surprised that a crapshoot would leave you constantly confused.

If you want consistent qaulity, you will have to look upmarket. It is
generally safe to go with the names that are in common use in the trades
(Milwaulkee, Makita, Dewalt, Bosch, PC, Hitachi....) because the have been
vetted by the trade community. Even then, best of breed will come from
different manufacturers.

Of course, that assurance of consistant quality co$ts.

-Steve




wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

?

Thanks!

Aaron Fude

My take on tool choices is simple.

When I depend on a tool, I don't want to have to doubt it, second guess
it or worry about it.
I think nothing of dropping $ 1000.00 on a sander/vacuum combo. It's
part of my life-line.... like my mitre saw.
An angle grinder I might use 2 times in 3 years, $ 25.00 tops!

Ask yourself this: "when I reach for a tool, on a regular basis, how
important is it that it works to a predictable standard?"

Often, I try to look for value, and not necessarily top of the line,
but a piece of crap won't do either......THAT is when it gets
difficult. You ask around, read reviews on line and search Wreck's
archives.

Good luck.

r

"Robatoy" wrote in message
My take on tool choices is simple.

When I depend on a tool, I don't want to have to doubt it, second guess
it or worry about it.
I think nothing of dropping $ 1000.00 on a sander/vacuum combo. It's
part of my life-line.... like my mitre saw.
An angle grinder I might use 2 times in 3 years, $ 25.00 tops!

Ask yourself this: "when I reach for a tool, on a regular basis, how
important is it that it works to a predictable standard?"

Often, I try to look for value, and not necessarily top of the line,
but a piece of crap won't do either......THAT is when it gets
difficult. You ask around, read reviews on line and search Wreck's
archives.

Nope, I didn't forget to trim/edit ... the above simply bears repeating
should be part of the FAC!


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/06

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:


http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...2-3322505-3267
349

?

Thanks!

Aaron Fude

Is that the tool or the job that wouldn't break in 3 to 5 years? All jokes
aside welcome to the problem of buying anything.
With tools you want one that will do the job required of it and no more,
anything else is just fluff. What is the job you want it to do, that is the
question. With a drill you want it to make a hole in something, lets say
wood. If you are only going to make one 1/8" hole 1" deep in one piece of
wood and no more ever, then a super cheap hand crank drill would probably
work out fine. If you are going to drill few hundred holes of various
sizes over the next few years and are not worried about speed, then a good
quality hand crank drill would work out fine. If you are going to drill a
lot of holes in a short time a power drill is easier to use and may be
needed. How accurate do you want the holes to be? Would a drill press be of
advantage. Floor or bench model? How much room do you have to devote to the
tool and how much time do you have to spend on drilling the hole or holes?
A good quality hand crank drill (I got mine at a flea market for $5) is just
as accurate as my $500 drill press, just a lot slower. If I am going to
drill 500 holes with an accuracy of 1/64 inch between holes and have only a
short time to do it then the drill press is worth the extra money, if I have
only one hole to drill and time to do it the hand crank drill is the tool
for the job. As to quality, what is good enough? If you are only going to
use the tool once in a while for a short period of time, then a low to
medium quality tool is probably good enough, unless it has a cutting edge
i.e.. drill bit, chisel, sawblade etc. The more you use the tool the better
the quality needed is, if you use it all the time there is never a good
enough quality tool. What do you need? If you are buying tools to last 3 to
five years it is false economy, a better tool will last 20 years and cost a
lot less then the cheaper tool over that time.( my jointer cost less then
$100 new out of the box 40 + years ago. a new one to day of the same
quality is around 4 to 5 hundred, I expect my grand child to still be using
this one in another 40+ years.) Cheap tools are cheap because they don't
use the quality of materials that better tools use. Look at your table saw,
doesn't cut angles properly you say. Why? Sometimes a good tool comes with
cheap parts, can you upgrade? A good TS may have a cheap miter gauge, you
can upgrade to a better miter gauge and have a good saw all around for
cutting angles. Look at the job you are going to be doing and pick the tool
to do the job, look at the tools avaible and get the BEST you can afford.
What is important to you on the tool? If you are buying a drill, will a
hand crank drill work, do you need a power drill or a drill press? do you
need a hammer drill or other features? what can you do without, what do you
have to have? When you have decided then buy the best you can afford, there
is no such thing as to good of a tool. In answer to your question I don't
like GMC tools, others here may have different ideas, listen to them and
make up your mind as to whether the tool will do the job for you and is the
best you can afford for the job. I would go with a good quality miter box
and back saw myself.

Hi,

Thanks for all the responses.
The reason why I say 3-5 years is because I assume that in that time
period my skill will increase and my needs and demands will change.

What I'm wondering specifically about this miter saw, among other
things that have already been addressed above" is whether it will give
me accurate enough angles for frames up to 16"x20".

Thanks!

Aaron Fude

Arron,

I reread your post an I think I missed your underlying question the first
time.

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years".

Not break... that's a good criteria

Here's the rub. You want a tool not to just do the job, but to do it well
(or at least to some standard). If that sounds overly simplistic, it is.
Figuring out what "performs well" means for a given tool is not always
obvious. Sure, it's even simple to say thinks like accurate repeatable
setting, minimal vibration. What's not so easy is to do is to is to quantify
how good is good enough (e.g., how much fence deflection can I tolerate
before the quality of cut or safety are unacceptably compromised).

Let me say outright that I am surprised at how bad I am at this. That is, I
have just about never purchased a type tool for the first time and been 98%
pleased with what the overall performance. IME, I have to own and use a
tool for a while to fully grasp the subtleties of what makes a makes a good
one good. Sometimes that is personal preference.

I own a lefty PC circular saw (not my first) which I like a lot. It's a
pound or so lighter than some models. I like the light weight and the lefty
orientation.... others might prefer righty, or additional power that comes
with more weight. YMMV.

So, do you research, cross your fingers, and if you're lucky, you might get
it right on the first try.

-Steve

wrote:
Hi,

Thanks for all the responses.
The reason why I say 3-5 years is because I assume that in that time
period my skill will increase and my needs and demands will change.

What I'm wondering specifically about this miter saw, among other
things that have already been addressed above" is whether it will give
me accurate enough angles for frames up to 16"x20".
....

Who knows??? That's the whole point w/ cheap-ass stuff---one time you
_might_ get lucky and get one that works pretty well, tell your b-in-l
and he buys (supposedly) the same thing and gets a pile o' scrap iron.

There's a whole ot more to judging the quality than has even been
touched on here--you might read the recent review in FWW of 10" miter
saws where one model was a cheapie -- not only did it not perform for
angles, etc., it was extremely difficult to use because the return
spring was way too strong so it took so much force that made
controlling a cut difficult.

Whether you in particular would be satisfied also has a lot to do w/
your own preferences and personality--how persnickety are you w/ the
final product? If a miter is "pretty close" to closing and a little
putty fixes it up, is that "good enough"? As for making picture
frames, that's one of the most demanding operations there is in order
to have a professional-looking result w/ expensive moulding that is
prone to splinter a prefinished surface consequently leaving a rough
looking joint. A single miter off by 1/4-degree is pretty easy to
disguise--cut four and you've got an accumulated error of a full
degree. If you're serious at all about making frames for anything but
barnwood rustic, the better the tool, the better.

And, BTW, the cheap saw will undoubtedly have a super-cheap blade, and
that's a point the FWW review made--they put a WWII (or equivalent, I
forget the exact one, but the point's immaterial of the brand itself)
on the Chicago Electric saw and improved its performance significantly,
but the blade was more expensive than the saw and their conclusion was
still it wasn't worth the expenditure.

Plus, when all is said and done, you've spent whatever you spend and
what assurance do you have the electrics won't fry the second time you
use it?

In summary, only you can determine whether you're more interested in
cheap initial investment and willing to take a chance or whether you
actually need a tool to count on.

Hi,
Thanks for all the responses.
What I'm wondering specifically about this miter saw, among other
things that have already been addressed above" is whether it will give
me accurate enough angles for frames up to 16"x20".


With these cheap tools, the accuracy is dependant on the operator.
Repeatability is also dependant on the user.
The reliability is dependant on the manufacturer.

The only Craftsman tool I own is a 20 year old Radial Arm Saw.
It will cut perfectly, if I take the time to re-check all of the variables
and tighten all of the set screws.
If I change it to a different angle, all bets are off. I have to recheck
everything.
However, my Delta Unisaw, its fire and forget. If the scale says its going
to rip 6" it rips exactly 6".
If the miter gauge (not delta) is set to 45 deg, it cuts exactly 45 deg.

Bottom line is even a cheap handsaw will cut wood. However, speed,
convenience, repeatability and reliability comes at increasing costs.

So to answer you main question, yes, but each cut will require tight
scrutiny.

Dave



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Teamcasa wrote:

Hi,
Thanks for all the responses.
What I'm wondering specifically about this miter saw, among other
things that have already been addressed above" is whether it will give
me accurate enough angles for frames up to 16"x20".


With these cheap tools, the accuracy is dependant on the operator.
Repeatability is also dependant on the user.
The reliability is dependant on the manufacturer.

The only Craftsman tool I own is a 20 year old Radial Arm Saw.
It will cut perfectly, if I take the time to re-check all of the variables
and tighten all of the set screws.
If I change it to a different angle, all bets are off. I have to recheck
everything.
However, my Delta Unisaw, its fire and forget. If the scale says its going
to rip 6" it rips exactly 6".
If the miter gauge (not delta) is set to 45 deg, it cuts exactly 45 deg.

Bottom line is even a cheap handsaw will cut wood. However, speed,
convenience, repeatability and reliability comes at increasing costs.

So to answer you main question, yes, but each cut will require tight
scrutiny.
....

Yes, but...

Your example is for a piece of equipment that started out significantly
more expensive in real terms than what OP is talking about and has
options/ability to make adjustments to compensate. It's unlikely the
tool OP is talking about will even have such flexibility designed into
it. Whether it works well or not will essentially be a crap shoot w/
the odds not likely (imo) being in favor of the purchaser for anything
other than rough work.

Again, whether that would be satisfactory to OP is a question only he
can answer.

On 7 Sep 2006 05:48:42 -0700, wrote:
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

Don't forget that talk is cheap - and there's nothing cheaper than
internet talk.

What I mean by that is when you ask for recommendations on the 'net
people will often say "oh, buy this" or "buy that" without having
any consideration of the price. When you ask them if that is what
they have, you may find that their answers are aspirational rather
than practical.
For example, when I was looking for a cordless screwdriver people
(on another forum/group) told me that I _had_ to buy Dewalt, or Makita
or a few other brands and that "anything else would be throwing my
money away, as they wouldn't last". Well, in fact I bought a 20 (UKP)
driver that has lasted me nearly 4 years. Given that the branded
ones were about 10 times the price, I reckon I got a pretty good deal.

Since that episode I have become more aware of the recommendations
of strangers on the internet.

The same thing happens a lot in PC reviews. Pick up a PC magazine
and see what systems they recommend for office use. Then, if you can,
check out photos of the magazine's office. Do they use the kit they
recommend or have they got generic Dell/HP boxes, just like everyone else?

Pete

--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

wrote:
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

?

Thanks!

Aaron Fude

I think some of Lowes in NJ carry GMC. Nothing on their website but it
might be worth a trip to the store.

Amazon has a fairly friendly return policy but I've never returned
anything that would incur serious shipping charges.

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 05:48:42 -0700, pashag wrote:

Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years".

My thinking is to buy the best quality tool I can afford for a job I
expect to do often and the cheapest tool that will work for a job I don't
expect to encounter with any frequency.

If I use the cheap tool often enough to wear it out, buy higher on the
food chain next time. My drill press is on that list.

That said, people new to woodworking seldom have deep pockets and I am of
the school that says to buy whatever you can afford to get started ...
it's a poor tool indeed that won't last long enough to earn its
replacement. Learning how to do acceptable work under varying
circumstances separates a 'craftsman' from a 'tool user'. If you've
learned how to do good work under trying circumstances, you'll likely bump
your quality up a notch or two when you have more capable gtools. However,
if you've learned to do barely acceptable work with good tools, where is
the next rung on the ladder going to come from?

wrote:
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately)

I don't understand. No table saw measures angles. And you should be
able to cut good angles on any TS that is in working order. Is it that
you expected to cut accurate angles with just the stock miter gage?

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

If your expectation is to take it out of the box and cut miters that
permit you to assemble square picture frames, then no. And the same
goes for the big Yellow and Green brands. You have to set it up and
fool with it and and check and recheck. The better tool should be
easier to set up and will hold its settings better. But hobbyists do
seem happier with the GMC products than with comparable tools in the
same price range.

I think cutting picture frames is an application demanding high
precision. If it were me, I'd make a table saw jig for that. To me,
miter saws excel at quick crosscuts. They're extremely convenient for
cutting studs, for example. But I think you can do more precise work
more easily on even a benchtop TS than an inexpensive miter saw, IF
you're willing to spend a little time on making jigs. Just my opinion,
and I'm sure someone will offer the exact opposite one sometime.

wrote:
From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

I forgot to mention that I have a virtually identical miter saw I
bought last weekend for $30 on sale from Harbor Freight. I've taken it
out of the box and fooled around with it some and found that I'm going
to have to take it apart some to see if I can get it to cut at an
accurate 90 degree angle. the 45 stop seems ok-ish, but the fence seems
a bit off somehow. I hope I can make it good enough for quick choppy
choppy, but it's not now, now will it ever be, what I would use to make
picture frames or any precise miter joint.

I do have a cheap saw I could use for that-- a Delta Shopmaster
benchtop table saw. Not with the miter gage, though. It's all in the
jigs.

On 7 Sep 2006 07:56:13 -0700, wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for all the responses.
The reason why I say 3-5 years is because I assume that in that time
period my skill will increase and my needs and demands will change.

What I'm wondering specifically about this miter saw, among other
things that have already been addressed above" is whether it will give
me accurate enough angles for frames up to 16"x20".

The question will be how accurately does it lock into it's 45 degree
setting. In other words you might get the stop perfectly set at 45
degrees, and then you move it back to 90 for a straight cut, move it
back to 45 and now it locks at 45 +/- 1 degree randomly every time.
So every time you move it you may have to mess with it. And if you
are moving it back and forth from 45 left to 45 right because your
moulding doesn't sit flat you may never get it right.

The other thing to keep in mind is the capacity of an 8-1/4 inch saw,
and availability of blades.

The easiest way to do miters is on the table saw with a miter sled.


-Leuf

Leuf wrote:

The question will be how accurately does it lock into it's 45 degree
setting. In other words you might get the stop perfectly set at 45
degrees, and then you move it back to 90 for a straight cut, move it
back to 45 and now it locks at 45 +/- 1 degree randomly every time.

Also, there's sure to be play at the stop, such that your cuts can be
off 45 by plus AND minus 1 degree.

I'm going to use mine for stuff like PT lumber for picnic tables. What
the hell, it's going together with lag bolts, eh?

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I'm constantly confused by the quality of tools one should by. I try to
follow rule of "buy a good enough tool to do the job that wouldn't
break in 3-5 years". I have found from that point of view that I bought
too crappy a table saw (doesn't measure angles accurately), but too
good a power drill (my friend's Ryobi does every bit as good a job as
my Rigid).

From that perspective, if all I want to do is make picture frames and
cut trim, will I be perfectly happy with this cheap miter saw:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000EOM...322505-3267349

?

Thanks!

Aaron Fude


First thing, if it has to be right or exact, you gotta buy a good tool, like
a compound miter, router and table, or table saw, etc.

It is definitely confusing. I have bought cheap tools, and they outlast
their more expensive counterparts. But, by and large, if I want a good
tool, I'll research it, find the tool I want, then shop price. The ones I
have paid more for have done better and lasted longer than the cheap ones,
except for the really cheap ones I got at yard sales and such. In those
cases, if it dies, it dies. You shoot it and walk away. And sometimes, you
can not intentionally kill it. It just WON'T die.

There are lots of tools, though, that are quarter, dollar, couple of dollar
items, though, that last a very long time, and when $$ is divided by years
of use, they are of better value than some of the finest tools made. Some
hand tools last for fifty years of longer, and aren't expensive, or one
picks them up cheap at yard sales.

Example: Go buy ONE Craftsman socket. Let's say a 7/8". I would say it
would be around $8 to $12. Now, what does that same socket cost at a yard
sale? A buck? Same way with chisels. Same way with pliers. I got a 14"
set of Channel Locks the other day with the blue padded handles in good
condition for $2. The examples go on and on.

POINT IS: Become familiar with tools. Sometimes you run into a deal.
Sometimes you run into a steal. (the gloat type, not hot merchandise) You
just gotta know what you're looking at and take it from there. I've seen as
many overpriced tools as underpriced ones. A knowledgeable man discerns
between the two.

One more thing: How many screwdrivers do you have? I have probably 40.
How many do I use? All of them, but only about six regularly. The others
are a once a year usage. So it is with special tools. It sits and sits and
sits, but when you need one, it sure makes life easier. Like an impact
driver. I got one for about $8, and since I use it once about every three
years, I figure it will last about 300 years. I'm not sorry that I didn't
spend a lot for a Snap-On or Craftsman. But then, if I used it twice a day,
I woulda gone for the spendy one.

A parting shot: If it's for a money job that HAS to be spot on, and the
money's there, there's more justification for buying the $1600 table saw
over the $100 saw.

I'm rambling.

Steve