I've been in great need of a jointer, and since I've been working
mainly with small projects lately, boxes and cutting boards mostly, I
was willing to settle for a cheap, used tabletop jointer.

Since they're heavy, and shipping costs are high, I've been perusing
the Denver Craigslist. As usual with Craigslist, the few jointers I
found were way overpriced.

Then on Monday I saw an ad for a "Planer" for $75, but the guy's ad had
a picture of the Woodtek tabletop jointer copied from the Woodworker's
Supply web site. The guy said it wasn't a picture of the actual
"planer," and that the actual machine looked about the same except it
was on an enclosed stand. (!?)

I figured that even if it was the tabletop unit it would be worth $75,
as long as it was in OK shape.

Gloat #1: When I got to his place, it turned out to be a regular
full-sized 6" Woodtek jointer! Old, but in pretty good shape. He said
that it had been give to him by a friend. He had intended to use it to
build a bunch of oak furniture but never got around to it and had sold
his house and was moving to Norfolk VA on Friday. I did explain to him
that it was actually a jointer not a planer, and what it was used for.

Gloat #2: He said I also had to take the OAK that he was going to use,
because he didn't want to pay to have it hauled off. 65+ bd ft of s4s
1x6 and 1x8 white and red oak boards and 8 2-1/4 x 2-1/4 s4s oak table
leg blanks.

Some days you eat the bear...

--
Vince Heuring To email, remove the Vince.

You suck!

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
om...

I've been in great need of a jointer, and since I've been working
mainly with small projects lately, boxes and cutting boards mostly, I
was willing to settle for a cheap, used tabletop jointer.

Since they're heavy, and shipping costs are high, I've been perusing
the Denver Craigslist. As usual with Craigslist, the few jointers I
found were way overpriced.

Then on Monday I saw an ad for a "Planer" for $75, but the guy's ad had
a picture of the Woodtek tabletop jointer copied from the Woodworker's
Supply web site. The guy said it wasn't a picture of the actual
"planer," and that the actual machine looked about the same except it
was on an enclosed stand. (!?)

I figured that even if it was the tabletop unit it would be worth $75,
as long as it was in OK shape.

Gloat #1: When I got to his place, it turned out to be a regular
full-sized 6" Woodtek jointer! Old, but in pretty good shape. He said
that it had been give to him by a friend. He had intended to use it to
build a bunch of oak furniture but never got around to it and had sold
his house and was moving to Norfolk VA on Friday. I did explain to him
that it was actually a jointer not a planer, and what it was used for.

Gloat #2: He said I also had to take the OAK that he was going to use,
because he didn't want to pay to have it hauled off. 65+ bd ft of s4s
1x6 and 1x8 white and red oak boards and 8 2-1/4 x 2-1/4 s4s oak table
leg blanks.

No doubt about it, you suck.

Don't you wonder where these guys come from?

"Vince Heuring" babbles about some kinda obscenely good deal

Did he have to twist your arm behind your back to force you to take the oak?

It just goes to show you that the best deals are from folks who have to
leave town and need to dispose of this stuff before they go.

There is truly a GREAT whooshing sound here - must be a huge dust
collector running in the background.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

" Don't you wonder where these guys come from?


I know I sure wonder where they come from, 'cuz I never can find them!
Last "deal" I saw on wood was a bunch some guy had for sale in the local
rag. It was mostly cut offs, with a few 8 foot lengths of oak, plus a couple
of lengths of walnut. Plus about 1/2 of it was construction grade pine. He
was asking pretty darned close to retail price for the full sized pieces. I
offered him around 1/4th of his asking price and never heard from him again.
I suppose somebody got sucked in on the "deal"!
Any used power tools I see get sold for darned near retail, or more too.
Greg

Do you own a commerrcial shop? You must if you have a great need of a
jointer. I have never felt the need for one myself as I only do this as a
hobby.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
om...

I've been in great need of a jointer,

So your shop consists of a few hand saws and some planes? Maybe a brace for
drilling holes?

todd

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Do you own a commerrcial shop? You must if you have a great need of a
jointer. I have never felt the need for one myself as I only do this as a
hobby.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
om...

I've been in great need of a jointer,

CW wrote:
Do you own a commerrcial shop? You must if you have a great need of a
jointer. I have never felt the need for one myself as I only do this as a
hobby.


I do this as a hobby too. I also felt the need for a jointer, so I bought an 8"
bohemoth. You could land a small aircraft on its deck.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

No aircraft in my shop (that's my day job). I'm not willing to put out the
money or dedicate the space to a tool that would be, at best, a minor
convenience.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. ..
CW wrote:
Do you own a commerrcial shop? You must if you have a great need of a
jointer. I have never felt the need for one myself as I only do this as
a
hobby.


I do this as a hobby too. I also felt the need for a jointer, so I bought
an 8"
bohemoth. You could land a small aircraft on its deck.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

I've got those and more. A jointer though, is way, way down on my list of
needed tools.

"todd" wrote in message
. ..
So your shop consists of a few hand saws and some planes? Maybe a brace
for
drilling holes?

todd

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Do you own a commerrcial shop? You must if you have a great need of a
jointer. I have never felt the need for one myself as I only do this as
a
hobby.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
om...

I've been in great need of a jointer,

CW wrote:
No aircraft in my shop (that's my day job). I'm not willing to put out the
money or dedicate the space to a tool that would be, at best, a minor
convenience.



No aircraft in mine either, though I like having the ability to land one there.
Seriously, having a jointer has allowed me to buy rough wood in the species I
want and then mill it to the finished size I want (in conjunction with a power
planer). No longer am I at the mercy of the Borg and their limited selection.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

In article . net, CW
wrote:

Do you own a commerrcial shop? You must if you have a great need of a
jointer. I have never felt the need for one myself as I only do this as a
hobby.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
om...

I've been in great need of a jointer,

If you only buy s4s lumber from the Borg or have your local lumber
dealer surface it "s1s1e," surfaced on one side and one edge, you will
never need a jointer, it's ready for planing as is.

But buy some unsurfaced wood and try to make, say, a tabletop after
using just a planer to surface the wood, and you'll feel the need.

In my case I had some 1x4x18 purpleheart, padauk, and cocobolo boards
to surface for a cutting board. The padauk and purpleheart were both
cupped and twisted. Just enough to make them unusable unless jointed.

Oh, and while I think of it, does anybody have a manual for an
old-style 6" Woodtek jointer. :-)

--
Vince Heuring To email, remove the Vince.

I do the same. I do have a planer. No jointer. Not needed.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
...


Seriously, having a jointer has allowed me to buy rough wood in the
species I
want and then mill it to the finished size I want (in conjunction with a
power
planer). No longer am I at the mercy of the Borg and their limited
selection.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

I do, I have and I don't have a jointer. What's the problem? The jointer in
the home shop is a relativlely recent thing. So many put it on the "must
have" list these days. It is far down the list as far as I'm concerned.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
om...


buy some unsurfaced wood and try to make, say, a tabletop

You must my pretty surfaced and consistant thickness stock. OR you
build small stuff. My aircraft carrier is used on EVERY project and I
often use the handplanes as well after the jointer does the heavy work.

If a piece has a crook, then I will take the scrub to even it out a
bit, or use the scrub to clean up the edge before those blades see it.

Alan

You must buy surfaced and consistant thickness stock. OR you build
small stuff. My aircraft carrier is used on EVERY project and I often
use the handplanes as well after the jointer does the heavy work. I
did make my son's bed only with a table saw, hand planes, router, and a
jitterbug sander. Solid beech with three drawers underneath. 3x3
beech posts a bit higher than the sides/ends.

If a piece has a crook, then I will take the scrub to even it out a
bit, or use the scrub to clean up the edge before those blades see it.

Alan

arw01 wrote:
You must buy surfaced and consistant thickness stock. OR you build
small stuff.

Maybe he uses hand planes and a belt sander.

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:12:37 -0600, Vince Heuring
wrote:

He can ride the tail wind from your suckage to Norfolk!


I've been in great need of a jointer, and since I've been working
mainly with small projects lately, boxes and cutting boards mostly, I
was willing to settle for a cheap, used tabletop jointer.

Since they're heavy, and shipping costs are high, I've been perusing
the Denver Craigslist. As usual with Craigslist, the few jointers I
found were way overpriced.

Then on Monday I saw an ad for a "Planer" for $75, but the guy's ad had
a picture of the Woodtek tabletop jointer copied from the Woodworker's
Supply web site. The guy said it wasn't a picture of the actual
"planer," and that the actual machine looked about the same except it
was on an enclosed stand. (!?)

I figured that even if it was the tabletop unit it would be worth $75,
as long as it was in OK shape.

Gloat #1: When I got to his place, it turned out to be a regular
full-sized 6" Woodtek jointer! Old, but in pretty good shape. He said
that it had been give to him by a friend. He had intended to use it to
build a bunch of oak furniture but never got around to it and had sold
his house and was moving to Norfolk VA on Friday. I did explain to him
that it was actually a jointer not a planer, and what it was used for.

Gloat #2: He said I also had to take the OAK that he was going to use,
because he didn't want to pay to have it hauled off. 65+ bd ft of s4s
1x6 and 1x8 white and red oak boards and 8 2-1/4 x 2-1/4 s4s oak table
leg blanks.

Some days you eat the bear...

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 01:47:39 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

CW wrote:
Do you own a commerrcial shop? You must if you have a great need of a
jointer. I have never felt the need for one myself as I only do this as a
hobby.


I do this as a hobby too. I also felt the need for a jointer, so I bought an 8"
bohemoth. You could land a small aircraft on its deck.

Or a black helicopter.. *lol*

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:06:50 GMT, "CW" wrote:

I do, I have and I don't have a jointer. What's the problem? The jointer in
the home shop is a relativlely recent thing. So many put it on the "must
have" list these days. It is far down the list as far as I'm concerned.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
news:280420060743169895%VinceHeuring@dimensional. com...


buy some unsurfaced wood and try to make, say, a tabletop

I don't have a jointer or planer, but IMHO, the planer is the new item..

I can remember when I was a kid (like 50 years ago) seeing jointers in most home
shops.. big heavy cast iron monsters...
I never saw a planer in a home shop before the Dewalts came out a few years
ago...

(In my younger days I lusted after the Shopsmith planer attachment but it was
way too expensive)

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:06:50 GMT, "CW" wrote:

I do, I have and I don't have a jointer. What's the problem? The jointer
in
the home shop is a relativlely recent thing. So many put it on the "must
have" list these days. It is far down the list as far as I'm concerned.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
news:280420060743169895%VinceHeuring@dimensional .com...


buy some unsurfaced wood and try to make, say, a tabletop

I don't have a jointer or planer, but IMHO, the planer is the new item..

I can remember when I was a kid (like 50 years ago) seeing jointers in
most home
shops.. big heavy cast iron monsters...
I never saw a planer in a home shop before the Dewalts came out a few
years
ago...

(In my younger days I lusted after the Shopsmith planer attachment but it
was
way too expensive)

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Someone asked earlier what the big deal was about "top posting"

The sequence of posts I just quoted is a prime example when someone top
posts.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
om...

I've been in great need of a jointer, and since I've been working
mainly with small projects lately, boxes and cutting boards mostly, I
was willing to settle for a cheap, used tabletop jointer.

Since they're heavy, and shipping costs are high, I've been perusing
the Denver Craigslist. As usual with Craigslist, the few jointers I
found were way overpriced.

Then on Monday I saw an ad for a "Planer" for $75, but the guy's ad had
a picture of the Woodtek tabletop jointer copied from the Woodworker's
Supply web site. The guy said it wasn't a picture of the actual
"planer," and that the actual machine looked about the same except it
was on an enclosed stand. (!?)

I figured that even if it was the tabletop unit it would be worth $75,
as long as it was in OK shape.

Gloat #1: When I got to his place, it turned out to be a regular
full-sized 6" Woodtek jointer! Old, but in pretty good shape. He said
that it had been give to him by a friend. He had intended to use it to
build a bunch of oak furniture but never got around to it and had sold
his house and was moving to Norfolk VA on Friday. I did explain to him
that it was actually a jointer not a planer, and what it was used for.

Gloat #2: He said I also had to take the OAK that he was going to use,
because he didn't want to pay to have it hauled off. 65+ bd ft of s4s
1x6 and 1x8 white and red oak boards and 8 2-1/4 x 2-1/4 s4s oak table
leg blanks.

Some days you eat the bear...

--
Vince Heuring To email, remove the Vince.


you suck big time!

Vic

I buy rough cut. What's your definition of small? Coffee tables, end tables,
ect are small compared to houses. Define.

"arw01" wrote in message
oups.com...
You must my pretty surfaced and consistant thickness stock. OR you
build small stuff. My aircraft carrier is used on EVERY project and I
often use the handplanes as well after the jointer does the heavy work.

If a piece has a crook, then I will take the scrub to even it out a
bit, or use the scrub to clean up the edge before those blades see it.

Alan

I have a planner. 12 inch Delta.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
t...
arw01 wrote:
You must buy surfaced and consistant thickness stock. OR you build
small stuff.

Maybe he uses hand planes and a belt sander.

Yeah, if the bottom posters would quit screwing up the sequence, everything
would be fine.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:06:50 GMT, "CW" wrote:

I do, I have and I don't have a jointer. What's the problem? The jointer
in
the home shop is a relativlely recent thing. So many put it on the "must
have" list these days. It is far down the list as far as I'm concerned.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
news:280420060743169895%VinceHeuring@dimensional .com...


buy some unsurfaced wood and try to make, say, a tabletop

I don't have a jointer or planer, but IMHO, the planer is the new item..

I can remember when I was a kid (like 50 years ago) seeing jointers in
most home
shops.. big heavy cast iron monsters...
I never saw a planer in a home shop before the Dewalts came out a few
years
ago...

(In my younger days I lusted after the Shopsmith planer attachment but
it
was
way too expensive)

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Someone asked earlier what the big deal was about "top posting"

The sequence of posts I just quoted is a prime example when someone top
posts.

No, the problem is the combination of top and bottom posting. This post
would be an prime example of that (and of not snipping, which another cause
of "problems").



Personally, I like reading top posted messages because I can read through
the threads, in order, and I don't have to scroll down to the bottom of
every posting to read what the last person said. You can just "CTRL-U" (or
whatever your readers "Next Unread Message" key is), and never use your
mouse. And I can figure out that the top block of text is the most recent,
the next block is the second most recent, etc. So it still makes sense.
And regardless of your opinion, there is no "right" answer on top vs. bottom
vs. middle posting, although anyone who middle posts is insane. That's MHO,
anyway.

Clint

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:06:50 GMT, "CW" wrote:

I do, I have and I don't have a jointer. What's the problem? The jointer
in
the home shop is a relativlely recent thing. So many put it on the "must
have" list these days. It is far down the list as far as I'm concerned.

"Vince Heuring" wrote in message
news:280420060743169895%VinceHeuring@dimensiona l.com...


buy some unsurfaced wood and try to make, say, a tabletop

I don't have a jointer or planer, but IMHO, the planer is the new item..

I can remember when I was a kid (like 50 years ago) seeing jointers in
most home
shops.. big heavy cast iron monsters...
I never saw a planer in a home shop before the Dewalts came out a few
years
ago...

(In my younger days I lusted after the Shopsmith planer attachment but it
was
way too expensive)

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Someone asked earlier what the big deal was about "top posting"

The sequence of posts I just quoted is a prime example when someone top
posts.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:06:50 +0000, CW wrote:

I do, I have and I don't have a jointer. What's the problem? The jointer
in the home shop is a relativlely recent thing.

I guess that depends on what you consider "recent". Small "home shop"
jointers have been in wide use since at least the early 30s. Check the
catalogs for Delta, Walker-Turner, and Craftsman on owwm.com if you would
like. Then check to see how many of those little critters are available on
eBay and the like.

So in geological terms, sure, jointers are a recent addition to the home
shop.

--
-Joe Wells

"Here stands baseball's perfect warrior. Here stands baseball's perfect knight."
-Ford Frick upon Stan Musial's retirement

"CW" wrote in message
news
Yeah, if the bottom posters would quit screwing up the sequence,
everything
would be fine.


Before OE, no one "top posted", but because OE top posts by default,
everyone else is supposed to change how they posted to the usenet for years
before OE even existed?

The MAJORITY of usenet posters still bottom post, so you should too.

Top posting makes more sense, unless you have Alzheimer's. Most of us can
remember what was said for more than a few minutes and don't want to have to
scroll through the old message to get to the new one. If you have a
handicap, I'm sorry but most of us don't.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
news
Yeah, if the bottom posters would quit screwing up the sequence,
everything
would be fine.


Before OE, no one "top posted", but because OE top posts by default,
everyone else is supposed to change how they posted to the usenet for
years
before OE even existed?

The MAJORITY of usenet posters still bottom post, so you should too.

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Top posting makes more sense, unless you have Alzheimer's. Most of us can
remember what was said for more than a few minutes and don't want to have
to
scroll through the old message to get to the new one. If you have a
handicap, I'm sorry but most of us don't.


It may make more sense to you, because of how your news reader displays
messages. There are many ways to read messages on tghe usenet. Do you
realize that not all news readers thread messages? Since you are using OE,
go to View Current View and uncheck "Group Messages by Conversation"

That is how MANY people view posts on the usenet, so proper quoting is very
important.

Regardless, it is no reason to be insulting.

Kind of sounds like asking the lead car in a race to slow down because
others can't keep up with him.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Top posting makes more sense, unless you have Alzheimer's. Most of us
can
remember what was said for more than a few minutes and don't want to
have
to
scroll through the old message to get to the new one. If you have a
handicap, I'm sorry but most of us don't.


It may make more sense to you, because of how your news reader displays
messages. There are many ways to read messages on tghe usenet. Do you
realize that not all news readers thread messages? Since you are using OE,
go to View Current View and uncheck "Group Messages by Conversation"

That is how MANY people view posts on the usenet, so proper quoting is
very
important.

Regardless, it is no reason to be insulting.

"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Kind of sounds like asking the lead car in a race to slow down because
others can't keep up with him.


We are in a race?
To me it sounds like posting in a way that makes the Usenet useable to
everyone, and not just people using outlook express. It called "being
polite".

Personally, I use OE with threaded messages, so it's not that big of a deal
to me. But do whatever you feel you need to do, I will continue to be
considerate of other Usenet users.

Usable software is cheap and widely available. I will not adjust the way I
do things for the benefit of those that won't help themselves. It's the same
with the people on the binary groups that want you to process your post
because someone may only have dialup and can't take the time to download
something large. If they have inferior tools, don't expect me to adjust my
way of doing things to accommodate them. In this world there are haves and
have nots. Just the way it is.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Personally, I use OE with threaded messages, so it's not that big of a
deal
to me. But do whatever you feel you need to do, I will continue to be
considerate of other Usenet users.

"CW" wrote in message
k.net...
Usable software is cheap and widely available. I will not adjust the way I
do things for the benefit of those that won't help themselves. It's the
same
with the people on the binary groups that want you to process your post
because someone may only have dialup and can't take the time to download
something large. If they have inferior tools, don't expect me to adjust my
way of doing things to accommodate them. In this world there are haves and
have nots. Just the way it is.


LOL! Well aren't you full of yourself? Actually, majority of newsreaders are
SUPERIOR to Outlook Express, and the way you are choosing to post hampers
the superior functions of those newsreaders. So your comments are actually
quite funny, and it shows your ignorance of the Usenet.

Maybe you need to get a real newsreader, useable news readers are cheap and
widely available you know?

As I said, I will continue to be considerate of others, just as I would in
real life. You can continue to be a jerk, just as I suspect you might in
real life.

mac davis wrote:

I can remember when I was a kid (like 50 years ago) seeing jointers in
most home shops.. big heavy cast iron monsters...
I never saw a planer in a home shop before the Dewalts came out a few
years ago...

(In my younger days I lusted after the Shopsmith planer attachment but
it was way too expensive)


Still is.

You mean they now have a newsreader that takes those annoying bottom posts
and automatically puts them on top were they should be? If so, I'd like to
have that one.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

Maybe you need to get a real newsreader, useable news readers are cheap
and
widely available you know?

Top posting corrected to middle posting:

The CW entity posted thusly:

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
news
Yeah, if the bottom posters would quit screwing up the sequence,
everything
would be fine.


Before OE, no one "top posted", but because OE top posts by default,

I see you suffer from having a strange compulsion to actually read the
included material. Most of us have the mental horsepower to simply
ignore that which we don't nee.

Top posting makes more sense, unless you have Alzheimer's. Most of us can
remember what was said for more than a few minutes and don't want to have to
scroll through the old message to get to the new one. If you have a
handicap, I'm sorry but most of us don't.


everyone else is supposed to change how they posted to the usenet for
years
before OE even existed?

The MAJORITY of usenet posters still bottom post, so you should too.

I could care less where anybody posts, top, bottom, crisscross, or sideways.
What's the big deal as to where you post?


"Oleg Lego" wrote in message
...
Top posting corrected to middle posting:

The CW entity posted thusly:

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
news Yeah, if the bottom posters would quit screwing up the sequence,
everything
would be fine.


Before OE, no one "top posted", but because OE top posts by default,

I see you suffer from having a strange compulsion to actually read the
included material. Most of us have the mental horsepower to simply
ignore that which we don't nee.

Top posting makes more sense, unless you have Alzheimer's. Most of us can
remember what was said for more than a few minutes and don't want to have
to
scroll through the old message to get to the new one. If you have a
handicap, I'm sorry but most of us don't.


everyone else is supposed to change how they posted to the usenet for
years
before OE even existed?

The MAJORITY of usenet posters still bottom post, so you should too.

There is none but the bottom crowd seem to be on a (loosing) crusade.

"Tom" wrote in message
news:zc75g.925247$x96.78227@attbi_s72...
I could care less where anybody posts, top, bottom, crisscross, or
sideways.
What's the big deal as to where you post?


"Oleg Lego" wrote in message
...
Top posting corrected to middle posting:

The CW entity posted thusly:

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
news Yeah, if the bottom posters would quit screwing up the sequence,
everything
would be fine.


Before OE, no one "top posted", but because OE top posts by default,

I see you suffer from having a strange compulsion to actually read the
included material. Most of us have the mental horsepower to simply
ignore that which we don't nee.

Top posting makes more sense, unless you have Alzheimer's. Most of us
can
remember what was said for more than a few minutes and don't want to
have
to
scroll through the old message to get to the new one. If you have a
handicap, I'm sorry but most of us don't.


everyone else is supposed to change how they posted to the usenet for
years
before OE even existed?

The MAJORITY of usenet posters still bottom post, so you should too.