I just got a lesson today from a Shopfox dealer. I had checking around
to buy a 15 inch planer. I looked at Jet, Delta, Grizzly, Woodtek,
Shopfox and Yorkcraft on the internet. Not having catalogs I compared
all the specs and decided on a Grizzly GO453. I come to find out that
Grizzly and Shopfox are the same parent company and Grizzly is mail
order and ShopFox is sold through dealers. Shopfox gave me the name of
dealers to call in my area and the shop fox dealer I called did not
recommend the Shopfox since it not the quality as some of the other
equipment. He suggested Seco, which is another brand he sells and
looks the same with same specs and for more money. He said some of
their stuff is made in China with soft and poor castings and the Seco
is made in Taiwan was better quality. He commented on a Jet Vacuum that
a customer had the impeller broke and was not available from Jet
anymore for that unit since Jet changed overseas manufactures of that
unit and they were not interchangeable. I wonder if anyone else has
had this experience.

Should I give up on Shopfox or find a different dealer? What is an ISO
manufacture?
Bill

"BT98" wrote in message
oups.com...
I just got a lesson today from a Shopfox dealer. I had checking around
to buy a 15 inch planer. I looked at Jet, Delta, Grizzly, Woodtek,
Shopfox and Yorkcraft on the internet. Not having catalogs I compared
all the specs and decided on a Grizzly GO453. I come to find out that
Grizzly and Shopfox are the same parent company and Grizzly is mail
order and ShopFox is sold through dealers. Shopfox gave me the name of
dealers to call in my area and the shop fox dealer I called did not
recommend the Shopfox since it not the quality as some of the other
equipment. He suggested Seco, which is another brand he sells and
looks the same with same specs and for more money. He said some of
their stuff is made in China with soft and poor castings and the Seco
is made in Taiwan was better quality. He commented on a Jet Vacuum that
a customer had the impeller broke and was not available from Jet
anymore for that unit since Jet changed overseas manufactures of that
unit and they were not interchangeable. I wonder if anyone else has
had this experience.

Should I give up on Shopfox or find a different dealer? What is an ISO
manufacture?
Bill

An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an international
agreement of set standards.

Leon wrote:
"BT98" wrote in message
oups.com...

I just got a lesson today from a Shopfox dealer. I had checking around
to buy a 15 inch planer. I looked at Jet, Delta, Grizzly, Woodtek,
Shopfox and Yorkcraft on the internet. Not having catalogs I compared
all the specs and decided on a Grizzly GO453. I come to find out that
Grizzly and Shopfox are the same parent company and Grizzly is mail
order and ShopFox is sold through dealers. Shopfox gave me the name of
dealers to call in my area and the shop fox dealer I called did not
recommend the Shopfox since it not the quality as some of the other
equipment. He suggested Seco, which is another brand he sells and
looks the same with same specs and for more money. He said some of
their stuff is made in China with soft and poor castings and the Seco
is made in Taiwan was better quality. He commented on a Jet Vacuum that
a customer had the impeller broke and was not available from Jet
anymore for that unit since Jet changed overseas manufactures of that
unit and they were not interchangeable. I wonder if anyone else has
had this experience.

Should I give up on Shopfox or find a different dealer? What is an ISO
manufacture?
Bill


An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an international
agreement of set standards.

....of quality assurance.

FWIW, I just got the G0555 BS from grizzly and it is built in an iso9001
factory, and also has a big "made in taiwan" cast into the body.

It has a nice finish and my only complaint is a slight dip on the right
rear of the table... don't know if I'm going to raise an issue until
I've measured it (it's more than a feeler gauge... :-/)

er
--
email not valid


er
--
email not valid

Enoch Root wrote:

my only complaint is a slight dip on the right
rear of the table... don't know if I'm going to raise an issue until
I've measured it (it's more than a feeler gauge... :-/)

Huh, just measured it and it's gone! Very slight dip in the left rear,
I get a little snick sliding a 0.007" gauge under a straight edge. Not
worth a complaint...

er
--
email not valid

"Leon" wrote in message
An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an international
agreement of set standards.

Under ISO 9000 the standards dictate the manufacturing process. This does
not mean it is of high quality, but it is going to be consistent in quality.
There are about 20 criteria addressed by the standards including design
control, purchasing procedures, specifications, process control, inspection,
handling, storage, job training, etc.

One company may set a tolerance on a machined part of .0001, another company
making a competitive part may set tolerance at .05. If proper procedure
is followed, you can be assured that what you buy will be in the
specifications, be that good or bad.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message

An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an international
agreement of set standards.


Under ISO 9000 the standards dictate the manufacturing process. This does
not mean it is of high quality, but it is going to be consistent in quality.
There are about 20 criteria addressed by the standards including design
control, purchasing procedures, specifications, process control, inspection,
handling, storage, job training, etc.

One company may set a tolerance on a machined part of .0001, another company
making a competitive part may set tolerance at .05. If proper procedure
is followed, you can be assured that what you buy will be in the
specifications, be that good or bad.

I once heard a story, and it might be apocryphal, of a quality spec.
given by (IBM?) to a japanese company they'd tapped for a supply of
(stepper?) motors. Although they had misread the intent of the spec.,
they very diligently included 1.5 defective motors per hundred, and
asked why IBM should want that.

er
--
email not valid

"Enoch Root" wrote in message
news:tuidnbNm_c3iQqLZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@forethought. net...


An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an
international
agreement of set standards.

...of quality assurance.

If you are going to list "an" ISO standard, you might as well list all of
the standards. Specific packaging, shipping, billing, to name a few, are
required to be ISO certified. A quality standard is but one of many.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:EUR%f.28$uK.0@trndny03...

"Leon" wrote in message
An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an
international agreement of set standards.

Under ISO 9000 the standards dictate the manufacturing process. This does
not mean it is of high quality, but it is going to be consistent in
quality. There are about 20 criteria addressed by the standards including
design control, purchasing procedures, specifications, process control,
inspection, handling, storage, job training, etc.


OK, I only mentioned the agreement of set standards and no mention of
particular degree of quality. :~) Enoch Root mentioned quality assurance.

"Enoch Root" wrote in message
...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

I once heard a story, and it might be apocryphal, of a quality spec.
given by (IBM?) to a japanese company they'd tapped for a supply of
(stepper?) motors. Although they had misread the intent of the spec.,
they very diligently included 1.5 defective motors per hundred, and
asked why IBM should want that.


LOL. Well at least IBM would know which 1.5 motors per hundred would be
defective and would not have to allow for the liability quantity of motors
to fail. :~)

Incorrect.

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...

An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an international
agreement of set standards.

And an ISO standard is not standard. It varies widely from company to
company.

"Leon" wrote in message
. com...

If you are going to list "an" ISO standard, you might as well list all of
the standards. Specific packaging, shipping, billing, to name a few,
are
required to be ISO certified. A quality standard is but one of many.

Finally, someone who knows.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:EUR%f.28$uK.0@trndny03...

"Leon" wrote in message
An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an
international
agreement of set standards.

Under ISO 9000 the standards dictate the manufacturing process. This does
not mean it is of high quality, but it is going to be consistent in
quality.
There are about 20 criteria addressed by the standards including design
control, purchasing procedures, specifications, process control,
inspection,
handling, storage, job training, etc.

One company may set a tolerance on a machined part of .0001, another
company
making a competitive part may set tolerance at .05. If proper procedure
is followed, you can be assured that what you buy will be in the
specifications, be that good or bad.

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
And an ISO standard is not standard. It varies widely from company to
company.


I suspect that has a lot to do with which particular ISO certification that
they go by.

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Incorrect.

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...

An ISO manufacturer is one that subscribes and adheres to an
international
agreement of set standards.


Well let me rephrase, a company that is ISO "certified" subscribes to.



http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?... ndardization

No, it doesn't. ISO is not a set of standards as the advertising
(advertising being the only real benefit of certification) would have you
believe. In a nutshell, you tell them what your company standards are and
they drop by from time to time and make sure that you have the documentation
to show that you are fallowing those standards. As long as it is on paper,
you have satisfied their inspectors. If your company standards say that
every third part is crap, as long as you have the documentation to show that
that is the case, you meet standards. They do not, nor are they capable of,
dictate any manufacturing process or procedure. We recently had an ISO audit
(yes, our shop is certified). At no time did the inspector come into the
shop area. They stayed in the office and looked over the documentation. Even
if they had come into the shop, they would not have any idea what they were
looking at. ISO certification has two benefits. (1) It is good advertising.
People don't know what it is but it sounds technical so they think it must
mean something. (2) It provides jobs pushing meaningless paper. Our largest
customer builds heavy jets. They do not require us or any of their suppliers
to have ISO certification. They know it is BS and would never rely on that
to ensure quality, they can't afford to be that lax.

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
And an ISO standard is not standard. It varies widely from company to
company.


I suspect that has a lot to do with which particular ISO certification
that
they go by.

I've got to hand it to them, they know how to BS.

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Finally, someone who knows.


I wrote the manual for our company. We are not certified, but our QC manual
follows the ISO90001 guidelines and is sufficient for our customers. It
took me a couple of days following a book I bought for $20. A real ISO
certification would probably cost $10k+

I used to buy 90% of our poly bags from one supplier. They became ISO
certified and every order after that was botched and I've not bought from
them since.

CW wrote:
And an ISO standard is not standard. It varies widely from company to
company.

"Leon" wrote in message
. com...

If you are going to list "an" ISO standard, you might as well list all of
the standards. Specific packaging, shipping, billing, to name a few,

are

required to be ISO certified. A quality standard is but one of many.

It's not of the quality, but of the quality assurance. How's that?

er
--
email not valid

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
No, it doesn't. ISO is not a set of standards as the advertising
(advertising being the only real benefit of certification) would have you
believe. In a nutshell, you tell them what your company standards are and
they drop by from time to time and make sure that you have the
documentation
to show that you are fallowing those standards. As long as it is on paper,
you have satisfied their inspectors. If your company standards say that
every third part is crap, as long as you have the documentation to show
that
that is the case, you meet standards. They do not, nor are they capable
of,
dictate any manufacturing process or procedure. We recently had an ISO
audit
(yes, our shop is certified). At no time did the inspector come into the
shop area. They stayed in the office and looked over the documentation.
Even
if they had come into the shop, they would not have any idea what they
were
looking at. ISO certification has two benefits. (1) It is good
advertising.
People don't know what it is but it sounds technical so they think it must
mean something. (2) It provides jobs pushing meaningless paper. Our
largest
customer builds heavy jets. They do not require us or any of their
suppliers
to have ISO certification. They know it is BS and would never rely on that
to ensure quality, they can't afford to be that lax.

Then either the inspectors are not all consistent or things have changed
drastically in the last 4 years. My sister in-law was the operations
manager for a high end electronics company that built job specific one of a
kind electrical tools and equipment for extreme environment conditions.
Their product did not exist until commissioned and they carried no inventory
of products ready to be sold. About 7 or 8 years ago they were having to
make specific operations changes to become ISO certified. They had
apparently been trying to be certified for several months prior to hiring my
sister in-law.
Any way to make a long story short they had more than office visits.

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
I've got to hand it to them, they know how to BS.

That very well may be. A relatives experience fit the links description.
Perhaps some companies with a more select group of customers that want the
whole 9 yards. Some government contracts might require the links
description.
I also have a friend that worked at NASA in Houston several years ago and
ISO standards eliminated a lot of vendors from the list of "qualified"
providers.

Leon wrote:
"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...

I've got to hand it to them, they know how to BS.


That very well may be. A relatives experience fit the links description.
Perhaps some companies with a more select group of customers that want the
whole 9 yards. Some government contracts might require the links
description.
I also have a friend that worked at NASA in Houston several years ago and
ISO standards eliminated a lot of vendors from the list of "qualified"
providers.

I think bespoke stuff and research stuff isn't really amenable to that
process. But cranking out timeproven designs is.

I was doing drug discovery research in a company when the
parasite^Win-house consulting group started making noises about ISO in
discovery, and there was a general revolt in the division. No
discussion, no plans, just everyone knew what they were going to do.

er
--
email not valid

Doesn't mean squat. All that says is that they eliminated anyone that didn't
have the certification. That's like eliminating a job applicant because you
didn't like the stationary he wrote his resume on.

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
I also have a friend that worked at NASA in Houston several years ago and
ISO standards eliminated a lot of vendors from the list of "qualified"
providers.

More than office visits? They walked around the plant once, pretending that
they had a clue. The pile of paperwork required makes extremely expensive to
be ISO certified. In a one off shop, this would be hard to do and, unless
forced to do so, they woud not waste that much time and manpower. Paper
pushers love ISO. It gives them a reason to exist.

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...

Then either the inspectors are not all consistent or things have changed
drastically in the last 4 years. My sister in-law was the operations
manager for a high end electronics company that built job specific one of
a
kind electrical tools and equipment for extreme environment conditions.
Their product did not exist until commissioned and they carried no
inventory
of products ready to be sold. About 7 or 8 years ago they were having
to
make specific operations changes to become ISO certified. They had
apparently been trying to be certified for several months prior to hiring
my
sister in-law.
Any way to make a long story short they had more than office visits.

They simply ensure that you, on paper, do what you said that you would do.

"Enoch Root" wrote in message
...
It's not of the quality, but of the quality assurance. How's that?

er
--
email not valid

This doesn't surprise me at all. The fall in quality likely was not a direct
result of ISO certification but that certification in no way could have
prevented it.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
om...

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Finally, someone who knows.


I used to buy 90% of our poly bags from one supplier. They became ISO
certified and every order after that was botched and I've not bought from
them since.

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Doesn't mean squat. All that says is that they eliminated anyone that
didn't
have the certification. That's like eliminating a job applicant because
you
didn't like the stationary he wrote his resume on.


Well it meant that if you were not ISO certified you did not get considered
for the job. I do know that ISO certification does not mean that you do or
do not have the capacity to perform the job.
Basically politics.

I'd find a different dealer. His impetus may be to sell you the
product that makes him the most money. His story about Jet is
suspicious. Their customer service has always been outstanding
in my experience.

BT98 wrote:

Should I give up on Shopfox or find a different dealer? What is an ISO
manufacture?
Bill

CW wrote:
More than office visits? They walked around the plant once, pretending that
they had a clue. The pile of paperwork required makes extremely expensive to
be ISO certified. In a one off shop, this would be hard to do and, unless
forced to do so, they woud not waste that much time and manpower. Paper
pushers love ISO. It gives them a reason to exist.


I agree with you, but I will say that some auditors are more thorough
than others. Some actually try to do a good job. But most are just like
you say, meaningless paper pushers.

It's really a conflict of interest. The company hires the auditor to do
the audit.. The auditor wants return business, so usually they only
find a couple very minor things, but pass the audit.. If an auditor
came and reamed out the company, chances are the company would hire a
new audit firm.

And I agree. ISO 9001 is meaningless. Definitely don't let it help sway
a tool buying decision.

"bf" wrote in message
ups.com...


And I agree. ISO 9001 is meaningless. Definitely don't let it help sway
a tool buying decision.


Typically the ISO certification means nothing to the end consumer. It is
more for of a between businesses relationship.

Yep, meaningless advertising.

"Leon" wrote in message
. com...

"bf" wrote in message
ups.com...


And I agree. ISO 9001 is meaningless. Definitely don't let it help sway
a tool buying decision.


Typically the ISO certification means nothing to the end consumer. It is
more for of a between businesses relationship.

"CW" wrote in message
ink.net...
Yep, meaningless advertising.

Having participated in the process of getting a large manufacturing company
ISO 9001 certified, I wouldn't say it's meaningless, but it also doesn't
mean that the company makes high-quality products, either. All it means is
that the company has documented procedures and follows them. They could
make total crap products as long as the way they made the crappy products is
fully documented.

todd

Leon Mentioned:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?... ndardization

CW mused

".I've got to hand it to them, they know how to BS"

John added with a wry scottish smile and tongue firmly in cheek .... and they certainly know how to make URL's! ;-)) My God!, thats' the longest damned URL I've ever clapped eyes on ... oops! may have offended Mike Z there, .......oh, seems he's gone off to pray and rescue us from previous damnations(sp??)?

John

--
Remove 'spamfree' to reply

"John (aka wheelzuk)" wrote in
message news:n1D0g.110167

My God!, thats' the longest damned URL I've ever clapped eyes on ... oops!
may have offended Mike Z there, .......oh, seems he's gone off to pray and
rescue us from previous damnations(sp??)?

LOL IMHO that was only moderately long. I have seen some go 3 times that
long.