Mike:

I just wanted to give you a quick update on how much use I have gotten
out of your advice on spraying finishes.

First, in the "get to know your gun" department, I have now sprayed
about 4 gallons (yup, FOUR) of paint through my little Binks 115
knockoff. I have sprayed a lot of different items with it, but I am
proudest of the way my doors are now coming out. I actually know
enough now that I can diagnose what I am seeing on my piece of
sheetmetal (my gun setup/test medium) that I use to set the
pattern/flow and can now adjust and change the gun to what I need. I
have been having a blast with the Japan drier, and while I haven't
actually ruined a finish yet, I have made the gloss go to satin, which
is a sign of too much drier. So now I know my limits on that. I am at
about 1oz of Japan drier plus one oz of thinner per quart and it works
great on 70-75 degree days. I will certainly be toning that down for
our hot summer days.

As for flow, pattern, viscosity, and pressure, I have the most well
protected piece of plywood you can imagine in my backyard by my shop.
I don't know how much different materials and mixtures it has on it,
but they all dried up and it is now thoroughly plasticized. I have
taken some of oil base materials I had left over on one of my jobs (the
industrial stuff I am using starts catalyzing the moment it is opened
to air, and it not good even in a sealed container after about 10 days)
and tried all kinds of mixtures and settings.... all at 6 ozs. at a
time.

I have found that my 2hp compressor is the one to use to shoot finish,
as the one that is just a little bit smaller is painful to use. Like
when shooting latex on doors, I like long unbroken spraying to spray
the entire door side without stopping. Even with the little gun, it
strains it just a little. But the 2 hp is perfect.

After the last exchange here, I decided to buy some urethane and set
the gun up on my piece of plywood before getting on the doors for my
client. I called them and moved the date to refinish, and got busy
with the urethane. I used the Deftane Satin that I got from my local
paint supplier and then went onto the Deft site to get the info on
thinning. It couldn't have been easier. Still mixing in the gradient
marked cheap sports bottles I have, I was able to measure out and thin
exactly according to their specs. I was surprised when I started my
practice runs as I had to turn the pressure all the way down to about
35 lbs since I was getting fog at 45. I was thinking it would take a
little more air than that.

It just wasn't needed. After I got the handspeed and gun position
down, it worked great. I was glad I shot a quart up on the plywood
because I was getting it too wet, and I had sags. I put the halogen
lights on it where I could see the reflection when it was wet, and then
adjust to about 30% coverage on the next pass (instead of the tried and
true 50% for oils and spray can stuff) and it worked like a champ.

The instructions said they were looking for about 3 mil wet finish
(!!!) and that it would dry to 1.5 mil. To me, that seemed really
thick for one application (especially vertical application), but in the
end, it is their product. So I followed you cue and sprayed one coat,
then another about twenty minutes later, just when I could see the
material starting to change from looking really wet. Worked like a big
dog!

So out to the job. I stripped, sanded as needed, cleaned that nasty 15
panel door up and let it have it with the Defthane. I have to admit...
I was a little surprised.... the doors turned out great. I mixed up a
couple of different colors of gel stain for the door to match the
interior trims on the house, and the match was good. And with the
Defthane on it, the door turned out like a million bucks. And I was SO
damn thankful I didn't have to brush that damn door. The door took
about 8-9 hours to dry before hanging, but with the heavy coat on it,
it looked totally sealed, and my client was thrilled. I hung it that
night around 7 or so, and I was finished with the job.

I can't make enough money finishing doors to just do that when I go out
for repairs and installations. But I CAN do well for my door
installations, etc., if I can install and finish the doors for people
since I can get them coming and going. And it is easy enough to set up
and spray a door and go finish more repairs in the house while it is
drying, so that make finshing a good thing. I just reinstall whatever
I finished/refinished before I walk out for the day.

Since all the new construction around here has sprayed oil on the metal
entry/garage/rear doors, people really want to see that on their new
doors that they purchase from the lumberyard I am affliliated with
since they see their new doors as new construction. And I don't care
how good a brush man is, nothing looks as sleek and clean as a sprayed
door. So I think there is a demand there, but I am still looking into
that. And of course, I can just add this to my toolbox of things my
company does when I am out on a job and someone says, "hey Robert, do
you have anyone that can refinish my cabinet doors/garage door/bathroom
door/bookcase?"

Next on the gun trials: lacquer. I have an amigo that swears by the
"Old Masters" brand, and I will try to coax some out of him. I can't
see spraying lacquer on one or two doors, though. I use Deft lacquer
for interior doors and just pad it on. I use a disposable pad, and
pitch it when I am through. Too easy to do it that way, and Deft
lacquer is so forgiving it is almost foolproof.

BTW, here is the gun I finally settled on to be a companion to the
little wannabe Binks:

http://tinyurl.com/44fd

I haven't fired it up yet, but I will soon. I was interested because
of the low CFMs, especially since it is all metal and has a really
smooth action. It really seems like a nice gun, and when I got it it
was on sale for $11.95.

I just thought you might be interested to see how things went since you
were so generous with your time and suggestions. Both were a big help
to me. And for me, I always wonder what happened later when I have
taken the time and made some effort to help someone out. A follow up
seems like a simple courtesy to me, and certainly a sign of
appreciation for the help. This is mine.

So anyway, how you doin'?

Robert

wrote in message
oups.com...
Mike:

I just wanted to give you a quick update on how much use I have gotten
out of your advice on spraying finishes.

Thanks for the update Robert - it really is good to see follow ups on things
that have been discussed.


First, in the "get to know your gun" department, I have now sprayed
about 4 gallons (yup, FOUR) of paint through my little Binks 115
knockoff. I have sprayed a lot of different items with it, but I am
proudest of the way my doors are now coming out. I actually know
enough now that I can diagnose what I am seeing on my piece of
sheetmetal (my gun setup/test medium) that I use to set the
pattern/flow and can now adjust and change the gun to what I need.

I'm feeling like a new papa. If there is one single thing that I think a
person really needs to know about spray painting, this is it. Every thing
else becomes so much easier afterwards. Problems can be figured out,
tweeked, etc. You can start to misuse your gun a bit too, to accomplish
things in different ways - narrow the pattern way down in order to get into
tight places where you really don't want to try to contort yourself to
reach, etc. Fog areas in that might otherwise result in runs - like the
aforementioned narrow pattern, and still end up with a wet edge so that you
don't have orange peel in the fog areas, etc.

I
have been having a blast with the Japan drier, and while I haven't
actually ruined a finish yet, I have made the gloss go to satin, which
is a sign of too much drier. So now I know my limits on that. I am at
about 1oz of Japan drier plus one oz of thinner per quart and it works
great on 70-75 degree days. I will certainly be toning that down for
our hot summer days.

This is the never ending experiment. Retarders, relative humidity,
temperature, the cycle of some female paint goddess somewhere in the ozone,
and a couple of lesser definable factors can provide countless hours of
entertainment. Sometimes ya do it all right and shazam(!), it don't flow
right. But that's for another time.


As for flow, pattern, viscosity, and pressure, I have the most well
protected piece of plywood you can imagine in my backyard by my shop.

Hey - I have one of those too.



After the last exchange here, I decided to buy some urethane and set
the gun up on my piece of plywood before getting on the doors for my
client. I called them and moved the date to refinish, and got busy
with the urethane. I used the Deftane Satin that I got from my local
paint supplier and then went onto the Deft site to get the info on
thinning. It couldn't have been easier. Still mixing in the gradient
marked cheap sports bottles I have, I was able to measure out and thin
exactly according to their specs. I was surprised when I started my
practice runs as I had to turn the pressure all the way down to about
35 lbs since I was getting fog at 45. I was thinking it would take a
little more air than that.

I use mixing sticks that are calibrated in parts versus quantity, but your
"cheap sports bottles" should be just fine. If you want to check into other
things, stop by a real automotive paint supplier (not the autozone type
places) and look at the couple of things they typically carry. Some are
sticks like I use, some are graduated containers. But they're generally
graduated in parts not volume, and are cleverly done to accomodate just
about any ratio of materials. Easier to say than to explain. It does take
the thinking out of it and that can be important since these things are
pretty sensative to mix ratios.



The instructions said they were looking for about 3 mil wet finish
(!!!) and that it would dry to 1.5 mil. To me, that seemed really
thick for one application (especially vertical application), but in the
end, it is their product. So I followed you cue and sprayed one coat,
then another about twenty minutes later, just when I could see the
material starting to change from looking really wet. Worked like a big
dog!

Isn't it cool when it comes together. I still get a gas and a half watching
final paint come together. It's like magic happening before your very eyes.



Next on the gun trials: lacquer. I have an amigo that swears by the
"Old Masters" brand, and I will try to coax some out of him. I can't
see spraying lacquer on one or two doors, though. I use Deft lacquer
for interior doors and just pad it on. I use a disposable pad, and
pitch it when I am through. Too easy to do it that way, and Deft
lacquer is so forgiving it is almost foolproof.

I agree. I posted in another thread recently that to me a spray job has to
be "big enough" (whatever that means...) to make it worth my time in prep
and clean up - especially clean up.


BTW, here is the gun I finally settled on to be a companion to the
little wannabe Binks:

http://tinyurl.com/44fd

This link wouldn't work for me. How about posting the HF model number. Is
it one of the guns we talked about way back when?


I just thought you might be interested to see how things went since you
were so generous with your time and suggestions. Both were a big help
to me. And for me, I always wonder what happened later when I have
taken the time and made some effort to help someone out. A follow up
seems like a simple courtesy to me, and certainly a sign of
appreciation for the help. This is mine.

Thanks again for that. It really does feel like you helped someone out when
they post a follow up like this. It's sorta like that old adage - "Build a
man a fire and you'll keep him warm for a while. Light a man on fire and
you'll keep him warm for his whole life".

I've really gotten a lot of good information from this group and it feels
good to be able to provide something of value in return.


So anyway, how you doin'?


Life is good. Started with a new band and it's a band that plays much more
modern music than I'm accustomed to. Stretching me some. I am having a lot
of fun with it though. Been out of work for a couple of months now so I've
had some time to catch up on some small projects that have gone unfinished
for a while around the house. Nothing significant enough to really talk
about. Plus - I'm feeling a little guilty because some of these projects
have not matured the required 12 years, so I feel like I'm letting down the
male gender to some degree. I'm not a man without a conscience though - I'm
dutifully putting off a touch up paint job on my daughter's Malibu in the
name of waiting for "better weather".

--

-Mike-

wrote in message

I just thought you might be interested to see how things went since you
were so generous with your time and suggestions. Both were a big help
to me. And for me, I always wonder what happened later when I have
taken the time and made some effort to help someone out. A follow up
seems like a simple courtesy to me, and certainly a sign of
appreciation for the help. This is mine.

Kudos to you both ... I've saved most of Mike's posts on spraying, so ditto
for me.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

Mike:

If anyone should feel like a proud Papa, you should. That's how I felt
when I watched the urethane drying perfectly on the 15 panel door. I
know the next one (or two!) might not go as well, but this one let me
know I am set. I will continue to brush doors as needed, but on bigger
projects when I have a lot to spray or if I have a client that insists
on it, I can now approach them with confidence.

As long as I have been doing this, working in the trades, repairs,
remodels, etc., it never ceases to amaze me how much I actually don't
know about the finer points of the other trades. And since I have been
in the trades, I am even more baffled by how little some actually know
about what they are doing. Remember, I couldn't find anyone here
locally that would get me going in the right direction with spraying
solvent based materials.

I still get a lot of pleasure when I learn something new, and I have
been at the the point in my life where I like sharing what I know for
some time. I tend to forget that most people in the trades learn how
to do one thing, and that's "their line of work". For them, what they
do is a job, nothing more. It is to the point around here that trim
carpenters don't know how to cut in a roof or set concrete forms (or
the other way around with the other guys) and as I found out, our
"latex" painters feel like oil painting is specialized work. Sheesh.
I remember when painters were "painters".

A couple of years ago I took my "stuff" to Houston and completely
trimmed out my sister's newly remodeled house with two part crown
molding, archways, new door casings, base and show molding, site made
window stools, and some on site custom trim for a couple of stand alone
areas. My brother in law is an engineer that writes safety manuals
procedural literature for the oil industry, so he isn't some knothead.
Quite the contrary, and on top of that he is a great guy. For all of
us that do that kind of work all day long, it was a mildly interesting
project, like most people doing their daily work. I was enjoying being
Uncle Robert to my nephew a lot more than doing the work.

But for my BIL, he was stunned. He felt like he was "watching the
master". I laughed my butt off when he would say things like that,
because when I am on my own turf, my fellow workers are like me, they
expect "good work". And my clients hire me for just that; it is what
they expect, not what they appreciate.

I showed my BIL how to cut moldings, how to shave them with a good saw,
how to mark and scribe outside corners for crown installation, how to
cope the inside joints, how to measure an RCH, all the stuff we all
take for granted. He had never shot a nail gun before; never used a
12" miter saw before... it was like working with a new helper. He
absolutely loved it, and actually took notes! I bought him a set of
leather nail bags, a speed square, and a few other necessities, and now
if we are going to work on his fence he puts "his rig" on. It makes me
laugh, but it also makes me feel good.

I am now doing the same thing with my nephew, who is five. He has a
tiny set of leather bags, a seven oz hammer, a big orange plastic speed
square, and a 12' tape. A giant carpenter's pencil and pair of goggles
and he is set. I even bought him a stainless steel mug like his
uncle's, mine for coffee, his for water. He feels like a pro already.
His tool tote with his tools in it is actually one of the few things he
actually takes care of, surprising at his age. I guess life is good
around here, too.

Before I forget, the HF gun I bought was the Central Pnuematic #91011.
I have the aforementioned Houston group coming in today for Mom's 77th
birthday or I would be out there spraying with it today.

Started with a new band and it's a band that plays much more
modern music than I'm accustomed to. Stretching me some. I am having
a lot
of fun with it though.

OK.. this says a lot about a person. What kind of music do you play?
What do you prefer to play? And do tell, what is the modern music that
is stretching you?

Can't wait to hear this one...

Robert

wrote in message
ups.com...

Started with a new band and it's a band that plays much more
modern music than I'm accustomed to. Stretching me some. I am having
a lot
of fun with it though.

OK.. this says a lot about a person. What kind of music do you play?
What do you prefer to play? And do tell, what is the modern music that
is stretching you?

Can't wait to hear this one...


Well you asked Robert... I'm an old fart of sorts. A product of the 60's -
which means I should actually remember all of the 60's but dutifully, can't.
I've played a bit of country over time but mostly have hung in the 70's and
80's rock era. To me that was better music and more fun to play than most
of the 60's rock. Like a lot of guys my age, blues and rock of that era
seemed to be what we played most.

This new band is made up of a few younger folks (from 19 to 36) and a couple
of us not-so-younger-folks (another guitar player in his late 40's and me...
well, over 50). We do play some stuff from yesteryear (80's-ish stuff), but
most of it is late 90's to current. It's probably what kids today would
consider to be on the milder side of sound - none of the screaming crap.
Lots and lots of distortion and gain though. Stuff by bands like Foo
Fighters, Jimmy Eat World (who in the hell could have ever thought up a name
like that???), HIM, Collective Soul, etc. A lot of the bands I had never
even heard of before getting into this.

It's surprising how much there is to learn about picking up a new sound like
this. Not because it's so technically challenging, but because it
intentionally violates every musical precept that most of us played by for
decades. No more 1-4-5 (for those who are musicians out there). The
progressions in songs are often a mode of what we have adopted as the norm
over time. Rhythms are radically different too and it's not that they are
hard, but habits kick in and it does take an effort of sorts to internalize
the new stuff. And the part that can sometimes be the hardest... they like
a lot of very fast picking or "strumming" (if one could call what is done
today strumming), with a heavy attack. Well let me tell ya, you do slow
down some over time. Don't let anyone over 50 tell you that they haven't
slowed down. Fast takes on a whole new meaning. You find yourself asking
"why didn't I ever have problems doing something like this 10 years ago?"

Earplugs are the order of the day.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

Well you asked Robert... I'm an old fart of sorts. A product of the
60's -
which means I should actually remember all of the 60's but dutifully,
can't.

Funny you say that. Isn't everybody here an old fart of sorts, or an old
fart in the making? I think it's a prerequisite to working or trying to work
with wood.

Funny you say that. Isn't everybody here an old fart of sorts, or an old
fart in the making? I think it's a prerequisite to working or trying to
work
with wood.

REALLY!
I loved working with wood when in my early 30's but it fell by the wayside
with corporate busy life, etc.

Now, with gray hair past 60, I'm back and that age and then some seems to be
the norm. Woodturning meetings seem more like AARP kind than AAW. Guess it's
great that some folks can now do what they want to do instead of what they
have to.

TomNie