I bought a 12" Simonds backsaw No. 96 with 14 tpi which needs a jointing
and sharpening. The blade is 0.025" thick, but what kind of saw is it? Could
be a what... rip tenon or crosscut tenon, carcase? Mitre box?

TIA,

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:40:27 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:

what kind of saw is it?

Hard to tell without seeing it. 14tpi is probably crosscut rather rip,
which makes it a tenon or carcase saw, rather than dovetail. It's also a
bit big for dovetails. Mitre box saws are usually quite deep bladed.

As to the rest, then it depends how you sharpen it and use it. The rest
is up to you.

AAvK wrote:
I bought a 12" Simonds backsaw No. 96 with 14 tpi which needs a jointing
and sharpening. The blade is 0.025" thick, but what kind of saw is it? Could
be a what... rip tenon or crosscut tenon, carcase? Mitre box?

Tage Frid cuts all his saws with a rip tooth, claiming it gives a faster
cut all around. He implies (in TFTW I) it is more suitable to dry
hardwood, but doesn't make any comparison of the quality of the cuts
(seems like crosscutting with a rip profile would give a rougher cut.)

er
--
email not valid

Enoch Root wrote:

Tage Frid cuts all his saws with a rip tooth, claiming it gives a faster
cut all around. He implies (in TFTW I) it is more suitable to dry
hardwood, but doesn't make any comparison of the quality of the cuts
(seems like crosscutting with a rip profile would give a rougher cut.)

It probably would but cutting dovetails is more of a rip cut than a
crosscut.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

no(SPAM)vasys wrote:
Enoch Root wrote:

Tage Frid cuts all his saws with a rip tooth, claiming it gives a faster
cut all around. He implies (in TFTW I) it is more suitable to dry
hardwood, but doesn't make any comparison of the quality of the cuts
(seems like crosscutting with a rip profile would give a rougher cut.)

It probably would but cutting dovetails is more of a rip cut than a
crosscut.

That's very true, but Frid was known to cut a few tenons, and chose to
shape the teeth of all his blades that way anyway.

er
--
email not valid

Tage Frid cuts all his saws with a rip tooth, claiming it gives a faster
cut all around. He implies (in TFTW I) it is more suitable to dry
hardwood, but doesn't make any comparison of the quality of the cuts
(seems like crosscutting with a rip profile would give a rougher cut.)

er
--
email not valid

Yes it would or might tear the fibers. I can see it though, it would have to be tried,
with rip teeth it is the tops oh them that do the cutting so even with minor sized
cross cutting it might be cleaner that using the side cutting cross cut teeth, I would
have to find that text to get a thorough understanding from 'im. Which book is it?
Or is it online?

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Hard to tell without seeing it. 14tpi is probably crosscut rather rip,
which makes it a tenon or carcase saw, rather than dovetail. It's also a
bit big for dovetails. Mitre box saws are usually quite deep bladed.

As to the rest, then it depends how you sharpen it and use it. The rest
is up to you.


Thanks Andy, from what I have read or seen in saws for sale online, it can
go either way for this kind of work, a Japanese rip dovetailer can have 22 tpi.

BTW, Spear & Jackson just made it to the USA, do you use their saws? Got
an opinion?

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

AAvK wrote:
Tage Frid cuts all his saws with a rip tooth, claiming it gives a faster
cut all around. He implies (in TFTW I) it is more suitable to dry
hardwood, but doesn't make any comparison of the quality of the cuts
(seems like crosscutting with a rip profile would give a rougher cut.)

Yes it would or might tear the fibers. I can see it though, it would have to be tried,
with rip teeth it is the tops oh them that do the cutting so even with minor sized
cross cutting it might be cleaner that using the side cutting cross cut teeth, I would
have to find that text to get a thorough understanding from 'im. Which book is it?
Or is it online?

"Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking", there are two volumes (also available
combined), "Joinery" (which is relevant to the discussion), and
"Shaping, Veneering, Finishing".

He just kinda tosses it out there, though, with not much more to it than
what I've related.

er
--
email not valid

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:56:30 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:

Thanks Andy, from what I have read or seen in saws for sale online, it can
go either way for this kind of work, a Japanese rip dovetailer can have 22 tpi.

Japanese teeth - different shape altogether from Western teeth. At 22tpi
they're also rather fine for most timbers. I can only imagine using a
saw like that on the very smallest of work, in something like paulownia
or lime (linden)

BTW, Spear & Jackson just made it to the USA, do you use their saws?

Got a couple of old ones.

They're like any maker - used to be good once, but now the market is for
cheap rubbish and so that's what they're having to offer. They might
still be making good saws too, but anything you see in a mainstream
store will be home repair junk.

Japanese teeth - different shape altogether from Western teeth. At 22tpi
they're also rather fine for most timbers. I can only imagine using a
saw like that on the very smallest of work, in something like paulownia
or lime (linden)

BTW, Spear & Jackson just made it to the USA, do you use their saws?

Got a couple of old ones.

They're like any maker - used to be good once, but now the market is for
cheap rubbish and so that's what they're having to offer. They might
still be making good saws too, but anything you see in a mainstream
store will be home repair junk.


Oh you didn't understand then. I meant the saws made for carcase, tenon and
dovetail work, not home repair. Take a look:
tenon saws:
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com...ath=37_254_517
dovetail
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com...ucts_id=31 68

I saw them at another site, don't remember which site. Would you risk £22
or $40 on one?

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:54:41 +0000, with neither quill nor qualm, Andy
Dingley quickly quoth:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:56:30 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:

Thanks Andy, from what I have read or seen in saws for sale online, it can
go either way for this kind of work, a Japanese rip dovetailer can have 22 tpi.

Japanese teeth - different shape altogether from Western teeth. At 22tpi
they're also rather fine for most timbers. I can only imagine using a
saw like that on the very smallest of work, in something like paulownia
or lime (linden)

You'd be surprised, Andy. My razor saws cut very dense/hard jarrah at
an amazingly quick rate, quicker than the minty sharp Disstons.


-----
= Dain Bramaged...but having lots of fun! =
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

You'd be surprised, Andy. My razor saws cut very dense/hard jarrah at
an amazingly quick rate, quicker than the minty sharp Disstons.


Yeah? And I have been using a shark mini ryoba to cut/rip lignum vitae wedges
for my up and coming plane hammer, does the job swiftly and accurately.

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:18:31 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

You'd be surprised, Andy. My razor saws cut very dense/hard jarrah at
an amazingly quick rate, quicker than the minty sharp Disstons.

How do you shift the chips ? I've got Japanese saws of that sort of
pitch. Although they do cut pretty well on hard, stable timbers they
don't let the waste out fast enough to cut quickly. The only stuff I've
really found them to be well suited to is timber that's soft (squashy
chips) yet also fine-grained and stable. They might be good for ivory or
rosewood too, but I don't work much of either.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:37:18 +0000, with neither quill nor qualm, Andy
Dingley quickly quoth:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:18:31 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

You'd be surprised, Andy. My razor saws cut very dense/hard jarrah at
an amazingly quick rate, quicker than the minty sharp Disstons.

How do you shift the chips ? I've got Japanese saws of that sort of
pitch. Although they do cut pretty well on hard, stable timbers they
don't let the waste out fast enough to cut quickly. The only stuff I've

I hadn't noticed any problem so I haven't looked closely. It appears
to sweep them out as it cuts, IE, normally.


really found them to be well suited to is timber that's soft (squashy
chips) yet also fine-grained and stable.

Which timbers are you describing?


-----
= Dain Bramaged...but having lots of fun! =
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:06:54 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:

Oh you didn't understand then. I meant the saws made for carcase, tenon and
dovetail work, not home repair.

That's what I meant. Just putting a back on it doesn't make it a decent
saw, nor does a brownwood handle make it "professional". Besides which,
when did you ever see a "professional" tool that wasn't just a piece of
junk dressed up to fool the weekend warriors ?

tenon saws:
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com...ath=37_254_517

The cheap ones aren't cheap, and they're only cheaply made. Beech
handles and brass rivets mean a limited life before they work loose and
they're hard to tighten afterwards.

Worst of all, "Universal teeth pattern for versatility."
or in other words, "Saws for people who don't know the difference"

I don't know if anyone in Sheffield still makes backed rip saws - I
think Axminster/Clifton's Victor saws are, but even the Thomas Flinn
"Pax" saw (supposedly the best in production today) is this universal
cut. I also find that modern Sheffield dovetail saws are too short and
too deep. My own is a 1930's Preston and I'd prefer the Canadian Adria
pattern if I was buying new.

Would you risk £22 or $40 on one?

I bought a Disston "Warranted Superior" panel-sized rip this week. Rusty
as anything, but then it was only £1 8-)

I'm a dreadful skinflint at the best of times, but I'd rather spend
hours restoring an old saw than buy new.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:59:07 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

really found them to be well suited to is timber that's soft (squashy
chips) yet also fine-grained and stable.

Which timbers are you describing?

Paulownia, or (as I'm usually faking it) lime (linden / basswood
outside the UK).

I do a fair bit of tiny Japanese work, personal effects and little tansu
inner boxes, and my smallest saws are good for this. They clog up if I
try to use them on cedars or pines though.

That's what I meant. Just putting a back on it doesn't make it a decent
saw, nor does a brownwood handle make it "professional". Besides which,
when did you ever see a "professional" tool that wasn't just a piece of
junk dressed up to fool the weekend warriors ?

The cheap ones aren't cheap, and they're only cheaply made. Beech
handles and brass rivets mean a limited life before they work loose and
they're hard to tighten afterwards.

It DOES say "RIVETS" doesn't it?!?!?! Outrageous!

Worst of all, "Universal teeth pattern for versatility."
or in other words, "Saws for people who don't know the difference"

Yes but that could be redone.

I don't know if anyone in Sheffield still makes backed rip saws - I
think Axminster/Clifton's Victor saws are, but even the Thomas Flinn
"Pax" saw (supposedly the best in production today) is this universal
cut. I also find that modern Sheffield dovetail saws are too short and
too deep. My own is a 1930's Preston and I'd prefer the Canadian Adria
pattern if I was buying new.

Too poor for that... I only wish, but I'd still have a problem with hardness of
the steel of both Adria and Lie-Nielson.

Would you risk £22 or $40 on one?

I bought a Disston "Warranted Superior" panel-sized rip this week. Rusty
as anything, but then it was only £1 8-)

That is the way to go. You get RC 60 then.

I'm a dreadful skinflint at the best of times, but I'd rather spend
hours restoring an old saw than buy new.

I agree, and I've done that, but around here, Califoria southern central coast,
it is almost impossible to find the good old back saws, on the *bay the decent
ones are bidded up too high unless it's a Simonds.

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

"Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking", there are two volumes (also available
combined), "Joinery" (which is relevant to the discussion), and
"Shaping, Veneering, Finishing".


I have "Joinery" by him, it must be in there, thanks. And I scanned the entire
3rd book, still going to make it a full pdf, eventually.

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/