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#1
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I have made drawers both ways and I found that I had an easier time
assembling the unit if I made the square first and slid the bottom in. Also, from the perspective of replacing the bottom- for whatever reason- it is easier if you slide it in. Marc |
#2
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"Dr. Deb" wrote in message news Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. Deb Sometimes things get spilled in a drawer that never dries or have a bad odor. Or the bottom gets broken. Doing it norms way enables you to replace the bottom easily. |
#3
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Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in
from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. Deb |
#4
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I use a slightly different method. I do what Norm does, just slide it
in on three sides, but the drawer back I trim the height equivalent to distance between the drawer bottom and top of the drawer. Then after sliding the drawer bottom in, I screw up from under the drawer bottom into the drawer back. This gives the stronger construction aspect that you're talking about while also permitting the option at any time of removing the screws and sliding the drawer bottom out. |
#5
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"Dr. Deb" wrote in message
Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. The ability to easily replace a part that is often the most abused, without destroying the unit, is a prudent design consideration. IME, the "slide in" method makes for a stronger drawer as there is arguably more resistance to racking forces, due to the mechanical fastening of the drawer bottom to the back, than you get with a "floating" drawer bottom captured in a groove. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 12/13/05 |
#6
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"Dr. Deb" wrote in message news Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. You mean groove, not rabbet, right? If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for expansion and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to move and should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary. Brads are actually pretty forgiving in this respect. If the bottom is plywood, I would capture it on all four sides and glue it in place using the plywood to add structural strength to the drawer. IMNSHO this is one applpication where plywood is superior to solid wood. _Steve |
#7
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On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:41:06 -0600, "Dr. Deb"
wrote: My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. OK, I suppose, so long as it fits to a hare's breath. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. Stronger which way? There are no strenuous forces pushing it back and forth, and it is well enough supported vertically in either case, even if one method might be measureably slightly stronger than another. There would have to be some considerable effort to deform the back of the drawer to prove a point, and tha simply doesn't occur naturally. There are other more important considerations such as replacement, which has been mentioned. |
#8
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"Dr. Deb" wrote in message news Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished. Looks like we are a minority. |
#9
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Toller wrote:
I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished. Looks like we are a minority. I think the consideration is what the drawer is fitted in. I repair a lot of kitchen drawers that are beat up pretty badly as they are overloaded with silverware, utensils, and some even put plates, etc. in them. The bottoms will bulge out until the drawer bottoms sag so much they fall out of the groove, or the drawer will not close easily, which results in the famous female "hip check" to make sure it does. I have also found that people put leaky things in them such as lamp oil, glue, solvent base cleaners, and all manner of other liquids. So replacing a drawer bottom is a good thing for them. On the other hand, if it is the prized family heirloom Federal style highboy, probably enough care is taken in its use to ensure that the drawers are not abused. Robert |
#10
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"Leon" wrote in message . net... "Dr. Deb" wrote in message news Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. Deb Sometimes things get spilled in a drawer that never dries or have a bad odor. Or the bottom gets broken. Doing it norms way enables you to replace the bottom easily. O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you? Thanks for all clarifications. |
#11
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On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:12:11 GMT, "Ivan Vegvary"
wrote: If you need to replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you? No. The back can be narrower in depth than the front [false or not] by the amount necessary to slide the bottom in and out. The bottom is supported by the rabbet on the front and sides. That is sufficient for normal abuse. So, the bottom can slide under the back portion for insertion or extraction. It can then be tacked to that back portion if the fit is near as dammit is to swearing. |
#12
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"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message news:v%ctf.40$0c.20@trnddc07... O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you? Thanks for all clarifications. No. Rabbit the two sides and front. Raise the blade up (assuming table saw here) and run the back through so it literally cuts all the way through right where the rabbit is on the other pieces. Assemble the pieces, slide the bottom in and attach the back of the bottom to the underside of the drawer back. Make sense? Probably not. Perhaps someone else can come through and explain it better. Cheers, cc |
#13
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"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message ... "Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message news:v%ctf.40$0c.20@trnddc07... O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you? Thanks for all clarifications. No. Rabbit the two sides and front. Raise the blade up (assuming table saw here) and run the back through so it literally cuts all the way through right where the rabbit is on the other pieces. Assemble the pieces, slide the bottom in and attach the back of the bottom to the underside of the drawer back. Make sense? Probably not. Perhaps someone else can come through and explain it better. Cheers, cc Whoops! Replace Rabbit with "Dado".....where's that cup of coffee? |
#14
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"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you? Nope ... the drawer back, while flush with the drawer sides at the top, only extends down to the top of the groove that holds the drawer bottom. (IOW, there is no groove in the drawer back). This allows you to slide the drawer bottom in from the back, then use fasteners to attach the drawer bottom to the bottom edge of the drawer back. ... a classic drawer construction technique that has stood the test of time for at least a couple of reasons: By sliding the drawer bottom snug to the groove in the drawer front, then fastening it to the underside of the drawer back with mechanical fasteners (no glue, or spot gluing to allow for side to side expansion in a solid wood bottom), you have made the drawer assembly a bit more resistant to racking by effectively uniting the drawer back and drawer front into a more solid unit, and in a direction that is not normally prone to wood expansion to any detrimental degree. And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer just because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the method and consider it for future drawers. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 12/13/05 |
#15
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Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Sometimes things get spilled in a drawer that never dries or have a bad odor.**Or*the*bottom*gets*broken.**Doing*it*norms* way*enables*you*to replace the bottom easily. O.K., I guess I don't understand.**If*you*rabbit*all*four*sides,*you still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you?**If*you*need*to replace*the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases.* Don't*you? No you don't. The back is not grooved, it stops at the top of the side grooves. The bottom overlaps the bottom of the back and is attached with one or two screws, depending on drawer width. To remove the bottom, just undo the screws and slide it out. P.S. Note I changed "rabbet" to "groove". A rabbet is along the edge of a piece. A groove (with the grain) or a dado (across the grain) is within a piece. -- It's turtles, all the way down |
#16
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I like the "Norm" method because it provides a quick and easy way to square
the drawer. Because you attach the bottom with brads along the back, you can use a square to true up the box as you put in the brads. "Dr. Deb" wrote in message news Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. Deb |
#17
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On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:31:45 GMT, "Toller" wrote:
"Dr. Deb" wrote in message news Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished. Looks like we are a minority. I'm with you two. Seems like if there is sufficient abuse to break the drawer bottom, you are also going to see sufficient force applied in the use of the drawer to make the brads pull loose and deform the bottom such that stuff falls out the back of the drawer. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |
#18
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wrote in message oups.com... Toller wrote: I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished. Looks like we are a minority. I think the consideration is what the drawer is fitted in. I repair a lot of kitchen drawers that are beat up pretty badly as they are overloaded with silverware, utensils, and some even put plates, etc. in them. The bottoms will bulge out until the drawer bottoms sag so much they fall out of the groove, or the drawer will not close easily, which results in the famous female "hip check" to make sure it does. I have also found that people put leaky things in them such as lamp oil, glue, solvent base cleaners, and all manner of other liquids. So replacing a drawer bottom is a good thing for them. On the other hand, if it is the prized family heirloom Federal style highboy, probably enough care is taken in its use to ensure that the drawers are not abused. You are right. I just assumed we were talking about fine furniture. |
#19
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Dr. Deb wrote:
Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. Deb Totally enclosed is stronger, makes the box stiffer, is slightly more difficult to assemble, but makes squaring the box easier. OTOH, it makes it somewhat more difficult to change the bottom, if needed. I always make my bottoms totally enclosed because I won't be able to change the bottom anyway; I glue the bottom in. I don't worry about wood movement because I use plywood for the sides and the rear, and the bottom is of Masonite or plywood. I have never had a problem with drawers due to wood movement, but I also live in a fairly dry climate. If you use solid wood for those parts you would be asking for trouble if glued in. |
#20
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On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:41:06 -0600, "Dr. Deb"
wrote: Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. Why do the slide in? It would seem that enclosing all four sides would make a much stronger drawer, especially as support for the bottom goes. I laminated all my plywood drawer bottoms (and shelves), doubt they'll wear or break first. Enclosed all 4 sides and glued. -------------------- Steve Jensen Abbotsford B.C. chopping out the mortise. BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps. Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95. WW'ing since 1985 LV Cust #4114 Nothing catchy to say, well maybe..... WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools! |
#21
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#22
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Swingman wrote:
"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you? Nope ... the drawer back, while flush with the drawer sides at the top, only extends down to the top of the groove that holds the drawer bottom. (IOW, there is no groove in the drawer back). This allows you to slide the drawer bottom in from the back, then use fasteners to attach the drawer bottom to the bottom edge of the drawer back. ... a classic drawer construction technique that has stood the test of time for at least a couple of reasons: By sliding the drawer bottom snug to the groove in the drawer front, then fastening it to the underside of the drawer back with mechanical fasteners (no glue, or spot gluing to allow for side to side expansion in a solid wood bottom), you have made the drawer assembly a bit more resistant to racking by effectively uniting the drawer back and drawer front into a more solid unit, and in a direction that is not normally prone to wood expansion to any detrimental degree. And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer just because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the method and consider it for future drawers. As long as the bottom isn't glued in, I don't see the problem in changing a bottom even if it is captured. You just rip the back on your table saw at the top of the bottom (top of the dado) and pull that thin strip out (which makes the drawer a standard non-captured bottom). Except you have a saw cut in each side at the back, which no one will ever see. And if you want to do extra and work you won't even have that cut. |
#23
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I know that I missed a" one heck of a "whing ding" I hope to one day
participate in your world famous get together. This year we had way too much going on. But maybe next year with a little more warning. Leon "Swingman" wrote in message ... "Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message O.K., I guess I don't understand. If you rabbit all four sides, you still slide it in and attach the back? Don't you? If you need to replace the bottom you still have to take off the back in both cases. Don't you? Nope ... the drawer back, while flush with the drawer sides at the top, only extends down to the top of the groove that holds the drawer bottom. (IOW, there is no groove in the drawer back). This allows you to slide the drawer bottom in from the back, then use fasteners to attach the drawer bottom to the bottom edge of the drawer back. ... a classic drawer construction technique that has stood the test of time for at least a couple of reasons: By sliding the drawer bottom snug to the groove in the drawer front, then fastening it to the underside of the drawer back with mechanical fasteners (no glue, or spot gluing to allow for side to side expansion in a solid wood bottom), you have made the drawer assembly a bit more resistant to racking by effectively uniting the drawer back and drawer front into a more solid unit, and in a direction that is not normally prone to wood expansion to any detrimental degree. And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer just because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the method and consider it for future drawers. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 12/13/05 |
#24
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Stephen M wrote: "Dr. Deb" wrote in message news Watching Norm and others make drawers, they always slide the bottom panel in from the back and hold it in with brads. My preferred way is to rabbit all four sides and totally enclose the bottom panel. You mean groove, not rabbet, right? If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for expansion and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to move and should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary. Brads are actually pretty forgiving in this respect. If the bottom is plywood, I would capture it on all four sides and glue it in place using the plywood to add structural strength to the drawer. IMNSHO this is one applpication where plywood is superior to solid wood. _Steve If it "has to be that way" why do frame and panel doors work OK? I think it only done this way as a carry over from the days before plywood was available. It is pretty rare to see an old drawer with it's original solid wood bottom that is NOT cracked. Leaving the back open just makes it easier to replace or R&R. One other reason might be simply to make construction easier, though I typically dado all for sides and have neaver had any trouble with assembly. Larry W |
#25
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If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for
expansion and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to move and should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary. Brads are actually pretty forgiving in this respect. If the bottom is plywood, I would capture it on all four sides and glue it in place using the plywood to add structural strength to the drawer. IMNSHO this is one applpication where plywood is superior to solid wood. _Steve If it "has to be that way" why do frame and panel doors work OK? With a F&P door you will have typically 2 inches or so into which you can oversize your groove by 1/8" to accomodate expansion. In a 1/2" thick drawer, there isn't a whole lot left after you subtract for the groove and the expansion allowance. I think it only done this way as a carry over from the days before plywood was available. I'll buy that. -Steve |
#26
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"C & S" wrote in message
If the bottom is solid wood, it has to be that way to allow for expansion and contraction of the bottom pannel. The pannel should be free to move and should be allowed to expand out the back if necessary. I think it only done this way as a carry over from the days before plywood was available. I'll buy that. -Steve Actually, the method of drawer making in question was devised to allow for ease of replacement of a drawer bottom and has little to do with expansion/contraction of wood. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 12/13/05 |
#27
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"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
Swingman wrote: And anyone who has ever had to rebuild/restore/replace an entire drawer just because the bottom failed/cracked is much more likely to appreciate the method and consider it for future drawers. As long as the bottom isn't glued in, I don't see the problem in changing a bottom even if it is captured. You just rip the back on your table saw at the top of the bottom (top of the dado) and pull that thin strip out (which makes the drawer a standard non-captured bottom). Except you have a saw cut in each side at the back, which no one will ever see. And if you want to do extra and work you won't even have that cut. That "no one will ever see" was another reason for circumventing that possibility and making the drawer bottom easy to replace in the first place. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 12/13/05 |
#28
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James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote...
Whoops! Replace Rabbit with "Dado".....where's that cup of coffee? Ok, these are nits to be picking, but technically (and since you seem to be well-humored :-)... (1) It's "rabbet," not "rabbit." (2) Dadoing is cutting a groove across the grain. Cutting a groove with the grain is ploughing. OTOH, I suppose the distinction could be considered archaic if the work is done with power tools. Jim |
#29
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Jim Wilson wrote:
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote... Whoops! Replace Rabbit with "Dado".....where's that cup of coffee? Ok, these are nits to be picking, but technically (and since you seem to be well-humored :-)... (1) It's "rabbet," not "rabbit." (2) Dadoing is cutting a groove across the grain. Cutting a groove with the grain is ploughing. OTOH, I suppose the distinction could be considered archaic if the work is done with power tools. Jim What does Norm use? "dado" (you seem to be well-humored, too) Dave |
#30
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Toller wrote...
I rabbet all 4 sides. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone wanting to remove a drawer bottom, and it certainly looks more finished. Looks like we are a minority. I groove all four sides, too, for the same reasons you mention. I figure that if you ever really had to remove a bottom, you could always plough a groove through the back (down to the drawer-bottom groove) and slide the bottom out that way. But I've never needed to. Incidentally, I don't use fasteners in drawer-boxes. (I do use them to secure false fronts). I only mention this in case someone does use a brad or two ("to hold it in place while the glue dries" :-), that they would need to exercise some care in ploughing (plowing) the groove to release the bottom. Jim Do I get a point deduction for excessive use of parentheses? (G) |
#31
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David wrote...
What does Norm use? "dado" (you seem to be well-humored, too) Of course! (G) Jim |
#32
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Jim Wilson wrote:
David wrote... What does Norm use? "dado" (you seem to be well-humored, too) Of course! (G) Jim but then again, he always uses a few brads "to hold it together until the glue dries"... g dave |
#33
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(1) It's "rabbet," not "rabbit."
(2) Dadoing is cutting a groove across the grain. Cutting a groove with the grain is ploughing. OTOH, I suppose the distinction could be considered archaic if the work is done with power tools. As long as we are being pedantic (and I love to be pedantic)..... In that case the verb would be "plough", but the object of that verb (the noun) would be "groove". Right? This is confusing because "dado", at least in the modern WW vernacular, is both a noun and verb. -Steve |
#34
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Jim Wilson wrote:
Do I get a point deduction for excessive use of parentheses? (G) Don't know why you would (or should) - I use more (a lot more). (G) -- It's turtles, all the way down |
#35
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C & S wrote:
This is confusing because "dado", at least in the modern WW vernacular, is both a noun and verb. So is "plane", "saw", "drill", etc.. :-). -- It's turtles, all the way down |
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