"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

"technomaNge" wrote in message
news
Kenneth wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
wrote:
-------------------

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight. Now that would be a lesson...

If that truly is your position and experience, when the opportunity
arises to meet you and your misbehaving children I will politely
refuse.

For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

i


There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).

However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
are not.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.

For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.

Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.

Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.

The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.

The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
course.

Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.



Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.

There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

That was a little overboard don't you think? Isn't it possible that he has
raised a child to the age of 6 that is well adjusted? Just because he
doesn't agree with our methods does not mean his methods don't work.

No Dave I think his spin on hitting was a bit overboard, don't you?
You have no idea of my methods, I haven't stated them.
Answer the question..what in the world is a well adjusted 6 year old
boy. What is he adjusted to?
I raised 3 they were all different. My sister has 5 kids, each is
different.
I what to know what is the standard or means by which you can tell if
a 6 year old is "well adjusted" or is heading for prison. Just where
do you get one of those yardsticks to measure how adjusted your kid
is. Do they give you one at Barns and Noble when you buy a "How to
Raise A Well Adjusted Child" Book.
Don't you think he is just a little bit overboard with his response to
Swingmans post? Don't think he was spinning at Swingmans expense.
Anyone who has raised a few kids knows firsthand that a label like
well adjusted is BS.
You can tell abused kids, ask any school counselor. The rest are just
kids. Parents with perfect well adjusted kids drive school
administrators nuts. Their kids are all innocent and its always the
other kids fault.

I have great kids, why? Their mine and I love them. Their perfect in
my eyes, their mistakes don't detract from their image.
Was I a good parent? What I consider to be the acid test, as teens and
adults they come to me for advise when they have problems. They know I
won't judge them with a label or standard like "well adjusted".

Well, Dave, you still don't know what my methods are. But maybe you
know what I think about pigeon hole labels like"well adjusted". Or
parents who apply them in an attempt to spin an argument to say that
their method is perfect and anything less is abuse and will result in
a child who is less then "well adjusted". That also applies to the
other side of the argument. The notion that you can't raise a great
kid without spanking them is BS too

PS Dave,
Unless you are going to apply your "over the top" standard to all
involved, just shut up. I'm a baby booming Spock child, I was never
spanked and was always told how great and well adjusted I was, as such
I have never experienced any real limits to my behavior. I impose my
own limits.

I think Ken owes Swingman an apology for his over the top spin. That's
what any "well adjusted" child would do. He can ask his 6 year old
for advise!
Whoops, there I go again, over the top.
Peace to you Dave:-]

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:09:56 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter

wrote:
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.

For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.

Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.

Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.

The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.

The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has
to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue,
problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would
if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run
its
course.

Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per
research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of
the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.

Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
anti-tantrum centers...

Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.

There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the
son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which
can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that
might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped
out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of
nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

What a dumbass that guy is...

Yeah. I showed my son how to do it when he was 10. He said "OK. Like this?".
Then I called him a cool guy, and he's permanently damaged because of it.

Swingman wrote:

"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

Are you stupid or something? Are you related to Forrest Gump?

--
Ragheads - worthless pig **** eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

Swingman wrote:

I'm glad I can hide behind a computer and act a badass!

We're just glad you're behind the computer and not in public anywhere.

--
Ragheads - worthless pig **** eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

snip

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking
semi-clad women...



Wishful thinking!
T

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

No Dave I think his spin on hitting was a bit overboard, don't you?

Yes, I do, but that wasn't really my point. Of course usenet has a way of
filtering out ones intent, but it seemed to me you were attacking him for
his views. It appeared to me that you didn't believe his child was well
behaved (I intentionally didn't use "well adjusted")

You have no idea of my methods, I haven't stated them.

True, I simply made an assumption based on my interpretation of your
reaction.

Answer the question..what in the world is a well adjusted 6 year old
boy. What is he adjusted to?
I raised 3 they were all different. My sister has 5 kids, each is
different.
I what to know what is the standard or means by which you can tell if
a 6 year old is "well adjusted" or is heading for prison. Just where
do you get one of those yardsticks to measure how adjusted your kid
is. Do they give you one at Barns and Noble when you buy a "How to
Raise A Well Adjusted Child" Book.

Sorry, I guess I can't answer that question. I can however give examples of
behavior that is unacceptable to me. It's quite possible that his yardstick
for "well adjusted" is different than mine, or yours.




Parents with perfect well adjusted kids drive school
administrators nuts. Their kids are all innocent and its always the
other kids fault.

I've met plenty of parents like that. Their yardstick is obviously different
than mine.


I have great kids, why? Their mine and I love them. Their perfect in
my eyes, their mistakes don't detract from their image.

I have great kids too, but they're not perfect even to me.


Was I a good parent? What I consider to be the acid test, as teens and
adults they come to me for advise when they have problems. They know I
won't judge them with a label or standard like "well adjusted".

Well, Dave, you still don't know what my methods are. But maybe you
know what I think about pigeon hole labels like"well adjusted". Or
parents who apply them in an attempt to spin an argument to say that
their method is perfect and anything less is abuse and will result in
a child who is less then "well adjusted". That also applies to the
other side of the argument. The notion that you can't raise a great
kid without spanking them is BS too

I think we agree for the most part. It just seems like you are a little
caught up on the term "well adjusted". I read that phrase as "my child acts
appropriately for his age and the situation". Perhaps my interpretation is
wrong.



PS Dave,
Unless you are going to apply your "over the top" standard to all
involved, just shut up. I'm a baby booming Spock child, I was never
spanked and was always told how great and well adjusted I was, as such
I have never experienced any real limits to my behavior. I impose my
own limits.

I'm simply stating my opinion. Others are welcome to their opinion, even if
they're wrong.

BTW, I think Spock is an idiot. What's your opinion? Do you feal like your
parents did a good job, or do you wish they had done something different?



I think Ken owes Swingman an apology for his over the top spin. That's
what any "well adjusted" child would do. He can ask his 6 year old
for advise!
Whoops, there I go again, over the top.

True, Ken was trying to spin his post, doesn't everybody?

Peace to you Dave:-]

Right back at ya.

Deborah ,

sorry, I should have been more clear what I meant. This article implies
that if you have "perfect" relations between your family members there
is a less likelihood of need to spank.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

And you never said a thing? At the very least I would have been
knocking on the door of the school counselor.
I had a neighbor who was in the habit of kicking his dogs, I called
the cops.He stopped. I would do the same for a child. I had a neighbor
who left her 8 year old home alone, I called the cops. She came
pounding on my door threatening to have me taken care of. Oh well.If I
thought there was abuse of any kind I would report it to someone. You
call the cops a few times when he is screaming and he would start
thinking. Cops don't like parents who abuse their children, neither do
I.

Peace to you, Dave

wrote in message
...


I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the
son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which
can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that
might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped
out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of
nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

And you never said a thing? At the very least I would have been
knocking on the door of the school counselor.
I had a neighbor who was in the habit of kicking his dogs, I called
the cops.He stopped. I would do the same for a child. I had a neighbor
who left her 8 year old home alone, I called the cops. She came
pounding on my door threatening to have me taken care of. Oh well.If I
thought there was abuse of any kind I would report it to someone. You
call the cops a few times when he is screaming and he would start
thinking. Cops don't like parents who abuse their children, neither do
I.

Peace to you, Dave

Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)

Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!
Everyone one participating in this thread must read it before posting
thier opinion on spanking.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.

i


Do you have kids?

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:01:25 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:


Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.

Dave,I consider this to be the single most important statement made in
this thread. My one son was never spanked, he had such a developed
sense of empathy and had a very hard time dealing with anyone he felt
was being treated unfairly. We could "talk to him". Its funny, we
thought he would grow up to be a minister. He joined the Marines.

Dave, peace to you.

Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Doug, when I was kid, there was a boy down the street whose dad was a
drunk. Every time he would put one on he would come home and beat that
kid bloody. I mean bad. He used belts, boards, whatever was handy.
This was in the late 50's and the police would do nothing. I wonder
what happened to him. That image has stuck with me all these years.
It was ugly.
That more then my parents example (it was good) influenced how I
disciplined my kids.I tried to always put their welfare first and
never let anger motivate my discipline.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:27:39 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.

i


Do you have kids?

Yes, one. 4.5 yo.

i


Good. I assume you have the usual parental nightmares about what could
happen to a kid in a normal, well-maintained house, regardless of how
careful you are. Start writing them down. You'll have your answer.

The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

Mon, Nov 21, 2005, 10:35am (EST-3)
(Too_Many_Tools) did crosspost his crap:
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Crossposting dorky little troll. Should have figured from the
start.



JOAT
Just pretend I'm not here. That's what I'm doing.

In article ,
wrote:


Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Doug, when I was kid, there was a boy down the street whose dad was a
drunk. Every time he would put one on he would come home and beat that
kid bloody. I mean bad. He used belts, boards, whatever was handy.
This was in the late 50's and the police would do nothing. I wonder
what happened to him. That image has stuck with me all these years.
It was ugly.

snip

I think I've told this story on the group before, but what the heck?

I was still in grade 6 or 7, living in a little area south of Pottery
Addition near Steubenville, OH.

One night somebody knocked at our door. There was a hushed conversation
at the door and my mother told me to go upstairs to my room. Being the
typically -- or maybe more than typically -- curious teenager, I of
course listened in on things via the heating ducts.

It turned out a neighbor girl of about 18 or so thought she had killed
her father. He'd trapped her by pushing their kitchen table into her,
catching her between the table and sink cabinet. She managed to get a
knife out of a drawer and thrust it at him across the table. He
collapsed and she ran out aimlessly in a panic, finally coming to our
door, maybe because she had done some babysitting for me and my sister
and thought my folks could help her.

I remember vividly her saying how she couldn't stand him forcing her to
his bed any longer and that she just grabbed the first weapon that came
to hand she could fend him off with. She said she didn't mean to hurt
him more than enough to get him away from her, but she didn't know how
badly he was hurt.

My folks called the sheriffs, who took the girl to their office after
checking her house and finding her father dead in the kitchen, lying on
the floor with about four inches of a big chef's knife in his chest. The
knife went far enough in to hit his heart. They said later that it
lookedlike he had more fallen across the table lunging for the girl and
fell on the knife more than she had thrust it into him. That may have
been just to spare her any more trauma. Who knows?

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

Turned out the Sheriff and Humane Officer had been watching the family
for some time, but had too little evidence to bring Child Welfare into
the situation or make an arrest themselves. They'd had reports and
rumors about how the old man was treating his family, but nothing solid
to take to court.

What really ticked me off, even that young, was some people in the
neighborhood considering her somehow defiled by having been repeatedly
raped by her drunken ******* of a father!

They soon moved away and I hoped the girl recovered as much as possible
and got a decent chance at life somewhere.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:11:55 -0700,
wrote:


The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.



No, I am not joking.

i
--


Hell, I used to get out my dad's mercury and play with it. He had about
four fluid ounces.

Nothing bad happened, luckily
luckily
luckily
luckily
(slap!)

sorry

Steve, and it is a true story.

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

chuck

Chuck Sherwood wrote:
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff

writes:


The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.



When I was 11 I'd buy KNO3 and sulfer by the lb from the local
druggist. In those days, the pharmacist had barrels of
each in the basement. Add a little charcoal, voila!

Got my first rifle about then too.

Times sure have changed.

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!


Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!

"Alex" writes:
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


Fairly reliable research has identified Roe v. Wade as a large
contributor to the decrease in the crime rate over the last
15 years or so.

http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/1/abramsky-s.html

In article et,
Jeff McCann wrote:

Chuck Sherwood wrote:
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff

Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did.

(Pure speculation below)

Maybe the mother was beaten and browbeaten into outright submission.
Things were much different in the late 50s/early 60s in Steubenville.
There wasn't much "interference" with family doings in those days in
that place unless something like that happened. Even the police didn't
do much about domestic violence except maybe hit 'em with Disturbing the
Peace or somesuch.

Failed to take the steps? Certainly. But was she even psychologically
able to take the steps, given the near total domination her husband
exercised? Many women who were married in the 30s/40s were raised with
an attitude that the man of the house could do no wrong. He was
virtually a god in some societies. They didn't even have a phone and she
might have been terrified to leave the house without permission.

If the kids talked, they might have paid dearly for it. Father knows
best wasn't a Robert Young TV show to some older generation families.

I don't want to get into a ****ing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.

In article ,
Ignoramus1487 wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:05:36 GMT, Jeff McCann wrote:
Chuck Sherwood wrote:
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

That probably was before laws about child abuse/neglect took present
shape.

i

There was very little in the way of child abuse/neglect protection when
and where I grew up. Laws existed, but were often laxly enforced.

Hell, when my parents were trying to get a commission-paid trucking
terminal off the ground, I practically raised my sister. We were ten
years apart. My mother could check in several times a day because they
built the first office in the garage beside the house, but my baby
sister was my responsibility between times. (They did make sure I got
some breaks to go out and just be a kid.)

Nowadays, that would be child neglect, I suppose. It didn't hurt me
overmuch and my sister and I are very close ~40 years later. There
wasn't much resentment. We just did what had to be done to get out of
poverty after my dad got hurt and couldn't drive his truck any longer.

Must have worked. After a few years all the back bills were paid, we
owned our own house, and my dad's cars were Cadillacs when Cadillac was
still a respected make.

John Husvar wrote:
In article et,
Jeff McCann wrote:


Chuck Sherwood wrote:

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff


Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did.

Got it. I meant the question to be rhetorical. Sorry.

(Pure speculation below)

Maybe the mother was beaten and browbeaten into outright submission.
Things were much different in the late 50s/early 60s in Steubenville.
There wasn't much "interference" with family doings in those days in
that place unless something like that happened. Even the police didn't
do much about domestic violence except maybe hit 'em with Disturbing the
Peace or somesuch.

Failed to take the steps? Certainly. But was she even psychologically
able to take the steps, given the near total domination her husband
exercised? Many women who were married in the 30s/40s were raised with
an attitude that the man of the house could do no wrong. He was
virtually a god in some societies. They didn't even have a phone and she
might have been terrified to leave the house without permission.

If the kids talked, they might have paid dearly for it. Father knows
best wasn't a Robert Young TV show to some older generation families.

I don't want to get into a ****ing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. But in this more
"enlightened" era, we complain a lot about irresponsible kids.
Personally, I think that the root problem is irresponsible parents. So
I draw a pretty hard line when parents allow or cause their children to
come to harm, or cause harm to others, as a result of parental
negligence. That's not to say that I have no sympathy for battered
spouses, especially in a time before recent societal changes in
perspective, but letting your teenage daughter be repeatedly raped is
just beyond the pale, and should not be tolerated in a decent society.
Nor should we tolerate spousal abuse, but at least the abused spouse is,
presumably, an adult.

Jeff

Ignoramus1487 wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:05:36 GMT, Jeff McCann wrote:

Chuck Sherwood wrote:

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.


That probably was before laws about child abuse/neglect took present
shape.

Laws against rape and accessory to rape have been around for hundreds of
years, dating at least from English Common Law.

Jeff

wrote in message ...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

correct sir
I applaud your intuition.

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."

BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
18,000 to about 160,000).

My point is that you can't exclude factors just because they don't match
your philosophy/politics.

Jerry

When a child misbehaves, stick him in the corner.

Minor offense, he can sit facing outward.
Moderate offense, he stands with his nose in the corner.
Serious offense, he kneels with nose in the corner.

Only spanking offense: Leaving the corner when put in it for punishment.

How to administer spankings: 1) Never spank when your ****ed. 2) Put a
lot of drama into it, use fear and expectation more than pain. 3) Use a
softly rolled up newspaper, as it makes a lot of noise and doesn't sting
as much. The noise and the expectation of do the work for you. 4) The
newspaper trick almost always work. If not, then you have to escalate to
the bare hand. Never use belts, hotwheel tracks or such, as you can't
feel what your doing.

With any luck, after one or two spankings, you'll never have to do it
again and you can always use the corner. Of course, genetics give people
different dispositions. This technique may or may not work in your family.

In article
,
says...

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."

BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
18,000 to about 160,000).


"Three strikes and you're out" law.

Increased crowding leads to more opportunity and
stress-inspiration for crime.

More welfare ("Idle hands are the devil's workshop.")

Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
epidemic starting in the late 80s. Leading to
increases in direct drug-crime, like sales/possession,
but also to increases in indirect drug-crime, like
muggings/burglaries/prostitution, etc, to get money for
dope.

I suspect that the drugs are the biggest factor.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article ,
says...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...


Would you settle for spanking Tim May?


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

"A lot of stuff in school... you don't appreciate 'til you get to be older,
you know, little things, like being spanked everyday by a middle aged
woman... Stuff you'd pay good money for later in life." -- Emo Philips

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:QvGgf.592160$xm3.225156@attbi_s21...

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size
to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05



As long as he's acting in my best interest, and making sure I know why I'm
being punished, I'm not afraid of that 1000 lb gorilla. You can be he
wouldn't have to tell me something twice.


ok how small of a kid are we talking about? or is it how big of a person is
doing the spanking? 5 times their weight? must be a really big guy or really
small kid....

Deborah