Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage? If you do, is it effective enough for you, or does it barely
make a difference? I had such a hard time when gluing up 9 pieces of a
lamination, I ended up doing the piece over. The next time, I took each
piece to the DP and drilled holes for dowels. The first lamination was
gonna get milled and stupid me had used a finish nailer every 3 pieces,
forgetting that I'd be running the completed lamination through a dado.
Besides which, with the glue causing slippage, each time I squeezed the
trigger, the pieces would move slightly. Not a good method.

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

Dave

David wrote:

Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage?

Never even heard of it....can't imagine how one could have anything w/
enough grit to be effective and get the joint to close, nor if the
pieces are able to move, what would keep the grit from simply moving as
well since it's essentially floating in the glue film...

....
When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

I would make every effort to

a. Make the piece such that final milling is done after glue-up,

b. a. being impossible, create a jig to hold the pieces.

Depending on the form of the piece you could:
- Use biscuits
- Make the pieces longer than needed and cut of the slipped ends
later
- Clamp end blocks across the table and drop the pieces in between
them
- Use less glue and let it dry for a few minutes before putting the
pieces together. Probably the best/easiest fix.

I've never heard of using sand. Can't imagine I'd want to introduce
anything like that into a joint.

on 6/21/2005 4:31 PM SonomaProducts.com said the following:

I've never heard of using sand. Can't imagine I'd want to introduce
anything like that into a joint.

Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.

I agree, cutting a dado through nails is not a good idea. I've never
tried cutting one through glued sand, but I have a feeling that might
not be a good idea also. Sam

I agree that for the project I was laminating and dadoing, I wouldn't
want sand in the glue. That Freud dado is tres expensive!

Since no one here so far has tried it, when I get a chance I'll glue
some scrap with Titebond and sand, and give a brief report.

Dave

Sam wrote:

I agree, cutting a dado through nails is not a good idea. I've never
tried cutting one through glued sand, but I have a feeling that might
not be a good idea also. Sam

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:45:11 -0700, David wrote:

Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage? If you do, is it effective enough for you, or does it barely
make a difference? I had such a hard time when gluing up 9 pieces of a
lamination, I ended up doing the piece over. The next time, I took each
piece to the DP and drilled holes for dowels. The first lamination was
gonna get milled and stupid me had used a finish nailer every 3 pieces,
forgetting that I'd be running the completed lamination through a dado.
Besides which, with the glue causing slippage, each time I squeezed the
trigger, the pieces would move slightly. Not a good method.

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

Dave


sand is as big a no-no for saw blades as nails.

I agree; please see my response to Sam.

s wrote:


Dave



sand is as big a no-no for saw blades as nails.

s wrote:
....

sand is as big a no-no for saw blades as nails.

Well, that's stretching it for the subject case...

Try salt - a tip I found in the "Glue Book" that seems to work great.
Craig

"David" wrote in message
...


When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

Dave

Never tried it myself but have known several people that use it all the
time. Works great according to them. Wouldn't want to plane the joint
afterwards though.

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
. ..
on 6/21/2005 4:31 PM SonomaProducts.com said the following:

I've never heard of using sand. Can't imagine I'd want to introduce
anything like that into a joint.

Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.

David wrote:

snip a sad tale of glue slippage

Do the glue up with say a max of three (3) laminations.

When cured, laminate a max of 3 laminations together which provides a
total of 9 layers.

Use epoxy and let cure at least 48-72 hours in the clamps.

Been there, done that.

BTW, forget sand in the glue, does nothing but make a sandy, weak, joint.

Lew

I was expecting that if sand works, I'd sprinkle it in the middle of the
joint away from the edges. I'd only consider it for face gluing where
slippage is such a bear. For gluing up panels, I don't have a slippage
problem--I'm using biscuits and or cauls.

Dave

CW wrote:

Never tried it myself but have known several people that use it all the
time. Works great according to them. Wouldn't want to plane the joint
afterwards though.

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
. ..

on 6/21/2005 4:31 PM SonomaProducts.com said the following:


I've never heard of using sand. Can't imagine I'd want to introduce
anything like that into a joint.

Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:52:10 -0700, David wrote:

I was expecting that if sand works, I'd sprinkle it in the middle of the
joint away from the edges. I'd only consider it for face gluing where
slippage is such a bear. For gluing up panels, I don't have a slippage
problem--I'm using biscuits and or cauls.

Dave

If you can get sand (and glue for that matter) to only stay in the middle
of the joint, I'd say you have enough control to keep things from slipping.
:-)


CW wrote:

Never tried it myself but have known several people that use it all the
time. Works great according to them. Wouldn't want to plane the joint
afterwards though.

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
. ..

on 6/21/2005 4:31 PM SonomaProducts.com said the following:


I've never heard of using sand. Can't imagine I'd want to introduce
anything like that into a joint.

Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.









+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

An alternative method that I use when I've _no_ other choice is to partially
drive two or three small brads an inch or so apart in the middle of the
joint/work-piece, then using a pair of pliers snip 'em off as close to the
surface as possible.

I've found it works well, but I don't recommend it as "common" practice...
although you know where they are and can avoid tooling near 'em, no-one can
predict what or who will happen to 'em after they've left your hands.

I "discovered" this method when trying to replace a stringer and destroyed a
good japanese pull-saw while seperating the joint. I'm lucky it wasn't a
power tool, I guess.

- Andy

David wrote:
Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage? If you do, is it effective enough for you, or does it barely
make a difference? I had such a hard time when gluing up 9 pieces of a
lamination, I ended up doing the piece over. The next time, I took each
piece to the DP and drilled holes for dowels. The first lamination was
gonna get milled and stupid me had used a finish nailer every 3 pieces,
forgetting that I'd be running the completed lamination through a dado.
Besides which, with the glue causing slippage, each time I squeezed the
trigger, the pieces would move slightly. Not a good method.

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

Good grief! Sand is going to screw up the joint fit and add an abrasive
that will screw up later operations...little stuff, like knocking
sharpness off any cutting tools used after glue-up. By itself, glue
dulls tools. Adding sand...no thanks!

You must not know the theory of glue. Glue is a chemical that swaps wood
molecules from one piece to the other, thus making the joint the strongest
part of the wood. The sand would only prevent the change. "David"
wrote in message
...
Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce slippage?
If you do, is it effective enough for you, or does it barely make a
difference? I had such a hard time when gluing up 9 pieces of a
lamination, I ended up doing the piece over. The next time, I took each
piece to the DP and drilled holes for dowels. The first lamination was
gonna get milled and stupid me had used a finish nailer every 3 pieces,
forgetting that I'd be running the completed lamination through a dado.
Besides which, with the glue causing slippage, each time I squeezed the
trigger, the pieces would move slightly. Not a good method.

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

Dave

David wrote:
Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage? If you do, is it effective enough for you, or does it barely
make a difference? I had such a hard time when gluing up 9 pieces of a
lamination, I ended up doing the piece over. The next time, I took each
piece to the DP and drilled holes for dowels. The first lamination was
gonna get milled and stupid me had used a finish nailer every 3 pieces,
forgetting that I'd be running the completed lamination through a dado.
Besides which, with the glue causing slippage, each time I squeezed the
trigger, the pieces would move slightly. Not a good method.

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

Dave

What didn't you like about drilling for dowels? I do this for headplates and
the underlying thin veneers
on classical guitar heads - it's pretty standard.

JK



--
James T. Kirby
Center for Applied Coastal Research
University of Delaware
Newark, DE 19716

phone: 302-831-2438
fax: 302-831-1228
email:
http://chinacat.coastal.udel.edu/~kirby

As I wrote that, I thought it sounds like a fussy procedure.

Dave

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:52:10 -0700, David wrote:


I was expecting that if sand works, I'd sprinkle it in the middle of the
joint away from the edges. I'd only consider it for face gluing where
slippage is such a bear. For gluing up panels, I don't have a slippage
problem--I'm using biscuits and or cauls.

Dave


If you can get sand (and glue for that matter) to only stay in the middle
of the joint, I'd say you have enough control to keep things from slipping.
:-)

I have plenty of drill bits but the dowel material on hand was slightly
smaller than it's marked size and didn't match any standard bits. The
closest size I could drill a hole was a bit too large for the dowel,
making alignment more sloppy than I wanted. I'm always in search of a
fast, fuss-free method to add to my repertoire of ww skills.


James T. Kirby wrote:

David wrote:

Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage? If you do, is it effective enough for you, or does it
barely make a difference? I had such a hard time when gluing up 9
pieces of a lamination, I ended up doing the piece over. The next
time, I took each piece to the DP and drilled holes for dowels. The
first lamination was gonna get milled and stupid me had used a finish
nailer every 3 pieces, forgetting that I'd be running the completed
lamination through a dado. Besides which, with the glue causing
slippage, each time I squeezed the trigger, the pieces would move
slightly. Not a good method.

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task?
How about for laminations?

Dave


What didn't you like about drilling for dowels? I do this for
headplates and the underlying thin veneers
on classical guitar heads - it's pretty standard.

JK

"David" wrote in message
...
As I wrote that, I thought it sounds like a fussy procedure.

Think snug on all clamps, then tight. Even the quick-clamps apply enough
gentle pressure to reduce creep prior to torquing the big boys.

On Tue 21 Jun 2005 03:45:11p, David wrote in
:

Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage?

I've read that someplace, and I heard somebody talk about it in a video or
a TV show a long time ago, but they laughed after they said it. I thought
it was joke, like telling the guy in the leaky rowboat to drill a few holes
in the bottom so the water could run out.

Dan

In article ,
David wrote:
Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage? If you do, is it effective enough for you, or does it barely
make a difference? I had such a hard time when gluing up 9 pieces of a
lamination, I ended up doing the piece over. The next time, I took each
piece to the DP and drilled holes for dowels. The first lamination was
gonna get milled and stupid me had used a finish nailer every 3 pieces,
forgetting that I'd be running the completed lamination through a dado.
Besides which, with the glue causing slippage, each time I squeezed the
trigger, the pieces would move slightly. Not a good method.

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

Dave

I've never tried it, but I have read of sprinkling a small bit of sharp
sand onto a surface that has been coated with glue before the mating
surface is brought into contact, to help prevent shifting of the 2
pieces. I've never seen anything about actually adding sand to the
glue itself. i

One thing I have done a few times, is to put a few short brads
between the pieces, then snip the heads off before clamping. If there
weill be any more cutting operations after gluing you need to watch
the brad placement of course.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

In article ,
W. Wells wrote:
You must not know the theory of glue. Glue is a chemical that swaps wood
molecules from one piece to the other, thus making the joint the strongest
part of the wood.

Sounds more like quantum theory, not glue theory.




--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

"W. Wells" wrote:

You must not know the theory of glue. Glue is a chemical that swaps wood
molecules from one piece to the other, ...

???

David wrote:

I have plenty of drill bits but the dowel material on hand was slightly
smaller than it's marked size and didn't match any standard bits. The
closest size I could drill a hole was a bit too large for the dowel,
making alignment more sloppy than I wanted. I'm always in search of a
fast, fuss-free method to add to my repertoire of ww skills.
....

I think the sand trick isn't it, myself, but guess it never hurts to
"'spearmint"

The best trick I think is the very short, small brad/tack route someone
else has already mentioned.

I can't remember where I read it, but it was a serious piece. Haven't
been able to find a ref on line to the practice. If it isn't a common
practice, I doubt I should waste my time doing a test with it (I stated
yesterday I'd test it out).

Dave

Dan wrote:

On Tue 21 Jun 2005 03:45:11p, David wrote in
:


Does anyone here use the trick of adding sand to glue to reduce
slippage?


I've read that someplace, and I heard somebody talk about it in a video or
a TV show a long time ago, but they laughed after they said it. I thought
it was joke, like telling the guy in the leaky rowboat to drill a few holes
in the bottom so the water could run out.

Dan

Larry, I think the snipped brad idea is the quickest method for securing
a number of laminations. I should have done that instead of drilling
holes that really didn't fit the dowel I had on hand. Plus it would be
much quicker to implement.

Dave

Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

Snip

One thing I have done a few times, is to put a few short brads
between the pieces, then snip the heads off before clamping. If there
weill be any more cutting operations after gluing you need to watch
the brad placement of course.

Thanks to all the suggestions and to the good-natured comments. I think
the quickest/best way to accomplish alignment for the type of piece I
was assembling (9 lams) would be the "snipped brad" method. Thanks to
the guys who mentioned that.

Dave

David wrote:

Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

In article ,
W. Wells wrote:
You must not know the theory of glue. Glue is a chemical that swaps wood
molecules from one piece to the other, thus making the joint the strongest
part of the wood.

Sounds more like quantum theory, not glue theory.

I was thinking more on the line of alchemy...

DJM usually tapes things together "to prevent slippage".
Tom

"David" wrote in message
news
Thanks to all the suggestions and to the good-natured comments. I think
the quickest/best way to accomplish alignment for the type of piece I was
assembling (9 lams) would be the "snipped brad" method. Thanks to the
guys who mentioned that.

Dave

David wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:38:48 +1000, "Andy McArdle"
wrote:

When a glue-up must not slip is sand not completely up to the task? How
about for laminations?

An alternative method that I use when I've _no_ other choice is to partially
drive two or three small brads an inch or so apart in the middle of the
joint/work-piece, then using a pair of pliers snip 'em off as close to the
surface as possible.

I've found it works well, but I don't recommend it as "common" practice...
although you know where they are and can avoid tooling near 'em, no-one can
predict what or who will happen to 'em after they've left your hands.

I "discovered" this method when trying to replace a stringer and destroyed a
good japanese pull-saw while seperating the joint. I'm lucky it wasn't a
power tool, I guess.

- Andy


Power tool (except for jointer or planer blades) wouldn't even notice a
small brad. Not recommended practice, but something that small shouldn't
adversely affect a good tablesaw blade.





+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

Power tool (except for jointer or planer blades) wouldn't even notice a
small brad. Not recommended practice, but something that small shouldn't
adversely affect a good tablesaw blade.

Once or twice, I've inadvertently cut through a 4" nail on my tablesaw
without any problem whatsoever. Never knew until I looked at the freshly cut
edge and noticed a 3/16" shiny spot of metal glistening back at me. 1HP
Table saw and carbide tipped blade took it without a hint complaint.

Upscale wrote:
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

Power tool (except for jointer or planer blades) wouldn't even notice a
small brad. Not recommended practice, but something that small shouldn't
adversely affect a good tablesaw blade.

Once or twice, I've inadvertently cut through a 4" nail on my tablesaw
without any problem whatsoever. Never knew until I looked at the freshly cut
edge and noticed a 3/16" shiny spot of metal glistening back at me. 1HP
Table saw and carbide tipped blade took it without a hint complaint.

Generally not a problem. Mild steel cuts fairly easily if therre's only
a tiny bit of it. I've never hit a 4" nail--and hope I don't--but brads
and staples, sure, as have most of us.

You don't want to be like a friend of mine who hit a hardened nail,
though. The carbide tips zinging by made him feel like he was back in
'Nam.

In article ,
Unquestionably Confused wrote:

on 6/21/2005 4:31 PM SonomaProducts.com said the following:

I've never heard of using sand. Can't imagine I'd want to introduce
anything like that into a joint.

Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.

Sounds logical to me. The clamping pressure will bury the few grains and
stop the whole mess from sliding around. But you know how it is around
here..say sand, and they're thinking a whole sandbox..mixing glue with
sand, making some kind of concoction that Johnny Hart's Wizard would be
proud of. ONE grain of sand. One grain... coming up:
http://www.latsi.com/latsipix/wizard-of-id.jpg

Robatoy wrote:
....
Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.

Sounds logical to me. The clamping pressure will bury the few grains and
stop the whole mess from sliding around. But you know how it is around
here..say sand, and they're thinking a whole sandbox..mixing glue with
sand, making some kind of concoction that Johnny Hart's Wizard would be
proud of. ONE grain of sand. One grain... coming up:
http://www.latsi.com/latsipix/wizard-of-id.jpg

Seems to me (again I haven't actually tried it) that if the piece wants
to move since the sand is in the glue film, it would be quite likely it
will simply move along with it first, before it sticks. Guess if there
were a flat starting point you could avoid that, but in that case you
would likely be able to hold it with simply the clamping pressure
anyway.

Just way I thought about it...

Why would U want to sprinkle sand into the joint? Sounds ridiculous to me.
What I do is sprinkle saw dust from the type wood I am using into the glue
joint and after it dries sand off and it hides it.


"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Robatoy wrote:
...
Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.

Sounds logical to me. The clamping pressure will bury the few grains and
stop the whole mess from sliding around. But you know how it is around
here..say sand, and they're thinking a whole sandbox..mixing glue with
sand, making some kind of concoction that Johnny Hart's Wizard would be
proud of. ONE grain of sand. One grain... coming up:
http://www.latsi.com/latsipix/wizard-of-id.jpg

Seems to me (again I haven't actually tried it) that if the piece wants
to move since the sand is in the glue film, it would be quite likely it
will simply move along with it first, before it sticks. Guess if there
were a flat starting point you could avoid that, but in that case you
would likely be able to hold it with simply the clamping pressure
anyway.

Just way I thought about it...

I can see you mis-understood the issue! We are talking about face
gluing (esp for lams) to prevent slippage. NOT for putting sand that
would run all over the edges

Dave

Dave wrote:

Why would U want to sprinkle sand into the joint? Sounds ridiculous to me.
What I do is sprinkle saw dust from the type wood I am using into the glue
joint and after it dries sand off and it hides it.


"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

Robatoy wrote:
...

Read it here on the rec recently. I believe the trick is to sprinkle
just a few grains into the joint. Once the joint closes up those few
grain puncture the otherwise smooth surface of the glue joint and
prevent movement as the pressure is applied. The plan sounded logical
to me when I read it here but will admit that I've not yet tried it.

Sounds logical to me. The clamping pressure will bury the few grains and
stop the whole mess from sliding around. But you know how it is around
here..say sand, and they're thinking a whole sandbox..mixing glue with
sand, making some kind of concoction that Johnny Hart's Wizard would be
proud of. ONE grain of sand. One grain... coming up:
http://www.latsi.com/latsipix/wizard-of-id.jpg

Seems to me (again I haven't actually tried it) that if the piece wants
to move since the sand is in the glue film, it would be quite likely it
will simply move along with it first, before it sticks. Guess if there
were a flat starting point you could avoid that, but in that case you
would likely be able to hold it with simply the clamping pressure
anyway.

Just way I thought about it...

Power tool (except for jointer or planer blades) wouldn't even notice
a small brad. Not recommended practice, but something that small
shouldn't adversely affect a good tablesaw blade.

Once or twice, I've inadvertently cut through a 4" nail on my tablesaw
without any problem whatsoever. Never knew until I looked at the freshly
cut edge and noticed a 3/16" shiny spot of metal glistening back at me.
1HP Table saw and carbide tipped blade took it without a hint complaint.

I was actually thinking along different lines, but didn't want to be too
verbose.

The stringer I was cutting free wasn't accessible to a table saw without
dismantling more than I was prepared to do.

When I was younger (and invulnerable) I used to use a small circ blade in a
4" hand-grinder to do the same job... a tricky task at the best of times.
I'm amazed I still have both hands complete with all ten thumbs. ;]
Thankfully I've learned since then, which is why 'twas the pull-saw that was
defanged.

May it RIP, I was very fond of that particular saw... it was the first
japanese style hand-tool I owned and it changed many of my methods for the
better.

--
- Andy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why don't you? Lister I don't know how. --Holly.

"Andy McArdle" writes:

[...]

Thankfully I've learned since then, which is why 'twas the pull-saw that was
defanged.

May it RIP, I was very fond of that particular saw... it was the first

There is an afterlife to saws as scrapers, specialty knifes,
whatever-can-be-made-out-of-thin-tool-steel, so when it no longer rips
it's not yet time for it ti RIP...

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23