I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2 cabinets
look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

Guidance wanted!

Cheers!
Duke

"Dukester" wrote in message
news
I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2
cabinets look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.


I don't know if this will help.

I have built a number of shelves that needed to be supported over distances
of up to twelve feet. What I did was to glue and screw some one by stock
(on edge) to the bottom of the shelf. I then filled the holes with wood
plugs. I used a minimum of two wood strips underneath the shelf. But more
if needed. One shelf that was to support some heavy items received five wood
support beams underneath.

I suppose you could even close in the bottom and make a torsion box. I never
went that far though. The above operations definitely added to the labor
involved. The extra materials did not amount to much though.

Well, I checked it with that "sagulator"
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm that someone posted the
other day. A 6 foot shelf of Ponderosa Pine 1" thick and 8" wide with
10 lb load at the center only sagged .09 inches. Even with a 50lb
center load it deflected less than 1/2" and a 50 lb uniform load
deflected 1/4"

Just go with a full 1" thick shelf. Adding .25 to the thickness halved
the deflection and going to a 3/4" shelf doubled the sag.

If you are worried about it you could go to a thicker shelf and/or you
could attach a few screws through the back. as long as the back slats
have some float you shouldn't have any problem or need slotted holes,
etc.

"Dukester" wrote in
news
I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the
two "Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure
out how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is
a no-no without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the
hutch is requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions.
I know it's possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on
these 2 cabinets look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

Guidance wanted!

Cheers!
Duke



There's a good article on shelf engineering in Woodworking Magazine, the
one currently on the shelves at the stores, with a Stickley inspired
bookshelf on the front. This magazine, no ads, no subscriptions (yet), is
written by the PopWood editors, and has, so far, been worth the price to
pick it up.

Four pages or so on shelves - wood species, loading points, solid vs ply,
thicknesses, length, face trim, etc. They did their homework, and seem to
have gotten it right.

Patriarch

The top shelf is screwed to the backboard, I'd bet, so it's extremely strong
at the back.
The lower shelf looks like it may have a piece of angle iron behind it.
Getting a board with a little camber and putting it convex side up will help
a lot.
Remember, these aren't meant for books.
Wilson
"Dukester" wrote in message
news
I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2
cabinets look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

Guidance wanted!

Cheers!
Duke

You've gotten some excellent responses so far.
Everything depends on how much weight your friend plans
to load the shelf with.

Here's a few tricks I've used for long shelves in the past.
- Use a stronger wood for the shelf. i.e. oak instead of pine.
- Use a thicker shelf and put a chamfer on the underside of the
front edge to maintain the visual effect of a thinner shelf.
- Add a steel strap to the front and rear edges and hide it
under a thin strip you previously cut off the shelf.

HTH.

Art



"Dukester" wrote in message
news
I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2 cabinets
look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

Guidance wanted!

Cheers!
Duke

"Dukester" wrote in message
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2
cabinets look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

How about a groove routed in the front bottom of the shelf with a
piece of steel cable secured to the sides of the unit?

has anyone seen something like that done?

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

Here's a couple options:

1. Fasten the back of the shelf to the back of the cabinet

2. Put a lip on the front, back or both to add strength to the shelf. If the
lip is in the back it would be less noticable. Routing a detail on a front
lip could make it appear less weighty.

3. A thicker shelf. If you don't care for the look of a thick shelf, taper
the underside of the front edge, to create the illusion of thinness.

4. Imbed some angle iron or screw a steel plate to the back edge.


Personally I would favor 1,3 or both.

Steve


"Dukester" wrote in message
news
I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2
cabinets
look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

Guidance wanted!

Cheers!
Duke

Regarding a steel cable under the shelf, it would have to be stretched
pretty tight to make any difference, so you'd probably need to attach
it very securely to the sides of the frame. A strong connection of
cable to wood would be hard to hide, I think. Very interesting idea,
but if it were up to me, I'd use a thicker shelf or put a band of
thicker wood on the outer face of the shelf (which would also hide the
plywood, if you choose to use it). Good luck - let us know what you
end up doing!
Andy

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Regarding a steel cable under the shelf, it would have to be stretched
pretty tight to make any difference, so you'd probably need to attach
it very securely to the sides of the frame. A strong connection of
cable to wood would be hard to hide, I think.

What about a length of hardened steel rod? Maybe have it sitting in an
underneath dado. Alternatives might be a length of square steel stock also
sitting in an underneath dado, at least partially.

"Upscale" writes:
"Andy" wrote in message
roups.com...
Regarding a steel cable under the shelf, it would have to be stretched
pretty tight to make any difference, so you'd probably need to attach
it very securely to the sides of the frame. A strong connection of
cable to wood would be hard to hide, I think.

What about a length of hardened steel rod? Maybe have it sitting in an
underneath dado. Alternatives might be a length of square steel stock also
sitting in an underneath dado, at least partially.



I wouldn't expect a steel rod (under 1.5" dia) having much
resistance to bending. Square stock, on the other hand
would work.

scott

"Dukester" wrote in message
news
I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider.

First off, will a plain piece of 3/4" wood over 42" sag? No. This is a
hutch, not a library with books.

How much weight is going to be put on the hutch? A few dishes, some
glasses, maybe a candle holder. You'd be very hard pressed to hit over 15
pounds. IMO, nothing is needed, but if you ere to put a single screw though
the back into the shelf, you can probably sit on it safely.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Dukester" wrote in message
news
I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider.


First off, will a plain piece of 3/4" wood over 42" sag? No. This is a
hutch, not a library with books.

How much weight is going to be put on the hutch? A few dishes, some
glasses, maybe a candle holder. You'd be very hard pressed to hit over 15
pounds. IMO, nothing is needed, but if you ere to put a single screw though
the back into the shelf, you can probably sit on it safely.



The subject of shelves sagging has been discussed
over and over and most people don't seem to
understand anything about what shelves will hold.
Shelves supported at only the end, will sag
with not that much weight, but shelves supported
at the ends and at the back with a few
screws/nails will support tremendous amounts of
weight.

As an example I have a book case I made nearly 30
years ago. It is made of 3/4 ponderosa pine
called yellow pine in the west (but not SYP which
much denser and harder) except the back which is
1/4 plywood. The shelves are 46 inches between
supports, 9 inches deep, and nailed through the
back with 4 penny nails every 8" or so. None of
the shelves have sagged and 2 of the shelves are
fully loaded with magazines. Just imagine the
weight of 46 inches of your favorite 8" x 10"
magazines. Those shelves hold a lot of weight.

In article ,
"Lee Michaels" wrote:

I suppose you could even close in the bottom and make a torsion box.

I'm a big torsion box user. I have built tables with solid surface tops
which protruded out from a wall by 4 feet...without legs.
16" overhang for breakfast bars are common...fully warranted.
You need to prepare the wall ahead of time, mind you...but man, torsion
boxes hold a ton of weight without sagging.

"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message news:21Kse.3646

I wouldn't expect a steel rod (under 1.5" dia) having much
resistance to bending. Square stock, on the other hand
would work.

Everything bends with enough force, however I've seen 6' lengths of 1/4"
steel rod that I couldn't bend my hand. As well, it's not as if the rod
would be supporting the entire load, it would just be reinforcing the shelf
while the rear part of the shelf would be carrying the bulk of whatever is
on the shelves.

"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message news:21Kse.3646

I wouldn't expect a steel rod (under 1.5" dia) having much
resistance to bending. Square stock, on the other hand
would work.

Everything bends with enough force, however I've seen 6' lengths of 1/4"
steel rod that I couldn't bend my hand. As well, it's not as if the rod
would be supporting the entire load, it would just be reinforcing the shelf
while the rear part of the shelf would be carrying the bulk of whatever is
on the shelves.

Dukester wrote:

I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2 cabinets
look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

Those shelves are just what they appeat to be--long shelves w/ no center
support. They're function is for display items of no significant weight,
not storage of heavy items--that's reserved for the lower section...

If you're expecting to load 'em up, you'll have to either add some
support or go w/ some other technique.

I could see it possible to build a composite shelf w/ some steel support
hidden in or some such, but in actuality, I'd probably just accept the
limitation for the look...

Dukester wrote:

I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2 cabinets
look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.


Think hollow door core construction.

A shelf a couple of inches thick thick, framed up with say 1x3 stock and
covered with a plywood skins will do the trick.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Dukester wrote:

I'm looking at making a hutch/china cabinet/etc. Take a look at the two
"Open step-back hutches" on this page:

http://www.camlenantiques.com/e/repro/cupboards.htm

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind except I can't figure out
how to do the shelves that long. I thought anything over 42" is a no-no
without some center support/divider. My friend who wants the hutch is
requesting just that; long open shelves with no partitions. I know it's
possible, I just don't know how you do it! The shelves on these 2 cabinets
look to be at least 5 and 6 feet long.

Think hollow door core construction.

A shelf a couple of inches thick thick, framed up with say 1x3 stock and
covered with a plywood skins will do the trick.

But what would it look like? Not good in the subject piece, I'm
thinkin' ...

I wouldn't expect a steel rod (under 1.5" dia) having much
resistance to bending. Square stock, on the other hand
would work.

Endless thread, slipped through a tube and anchored at both ends with
recessed nuts/washers will work, I've seen industrial shelving made this way
although haven't done it myself. Plugs can cover the nuts for a better
finish.

This will still bend given enough pressure, but first the nuts will have to
pull through the timbers... and if things get that bad the rod bending would
be my last concern!

- Andy

In article ,
"Andy McArdle" wrote:

I wouldn't expect a steel rod (under 1.5" dia) having much
resistance to bending. Square stock, on the other hand
would work.

Endless thread, slipped through a tube and anchored at both ends with
recessed nuts/washers will work

What's "endless thread"? Are you talking about threaded rod?

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
"Andy McArdle" wrote:

I wouldn't expect a steel rod (under 1.5" dia) having much
resistance to bending. Square stock, on the other hand
would work.

Endless thread, slipped through a tube and anchored at both ends with
recessed nuts/washers will work

What's "endless thread"? Are you talking about threaded rod?

yes...