wrote:
Most of the furniture that I've made, if I didn't have a purchased
plan, came from going into high end furniture stores and getting basic
dimensions on a piece. What I made never exactly matched what was in
the store. sales people look at you funny when you measure pieces.

If it is against the law, I'm guilty.

On 2 Jun 2005 11:35:38 -0700, "TrailRat"
wrote:

A little debate between friends has led me to spill it among the
newsgroup. The debate is over mass produced furniture and the
reproduction of it in a private workshop.

The question goes along these lines. Is approaching a flat-pack
supermarket or furniture store with the intention of copying a piece
illegal.

A few of the answers state that it must be a breach of copyright laws.
Another answer states that if a carpenter copies a piece
unintentionally, then he'd break a copy right law. Other answers state
that various pieces follow the same basic principles, i.e the design of
a wardrobe is the same on many levels but there are many variants.

So whats the opinion of the group. Maybe I'll share it with my friend
next time I'm down the pub. Yes, the debate started over pint.

I've never understand why they get upset about it. Unless your house is
the size of Grand Central Station, or some of the places I saw in Ft.
Lauderdale this past week, measuring furniture makes a lot of sense
even if you're planning to buy it.

Charlie Self wrote:

TrailRat wrote:

One of the guys I drink with is a solicitor. His only comment when
pressed was "must be nice for insperation". Apart from that he said
very little on the subject.

TR


In the U.S., you'd want to ask your question of an intellectual
property lawyer. Copyright and trade mark law is complex and
convoluted, as is most law, far beyond need. I cannot imagine wanting
to copy WalMart or KMart or Costco furniture in the shop, but there's
really no accounting for taste, so I guess it's possible. I'm not sure
you could get the cheesy look using real wood even if you tried, though.

LOL! But he could always buy some Contac Paper with nice butcher block
pattern to cover that walnut!

BTW, just picked up a copy of your book, Charlie, and I'm half way
through it must say that I'm impressed with the quality of the print job
(from China, no less) as well as the amount of concise, handy
information arranged in such orderly fashion. Looks like a winner.

Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:

TrailRat wrote:

One of the guys I drink with is a solicitor. His only comment when
pressed was "must be nice for insperation". Apart from that he said
very little on the subject.

TR


In the U.S., you'd want to ask your question of an intellectual
property lawyer. Copyright and trade mark law is complex and
convoluted, as is most law, far beyond need. I cannot imagine wanting
to copy WalMart or KMart or Costco furniture in the shop, but there's
really no accounting for taste, so I guess it's possible. I'm not sure
you could get the cheesy look using real wood even if you tried, though.

LOL! But he could always buy some Contac Paper with nice butcher block
pattern to cover that walnut!

BTW, just picked up a copy of your book, Charlie, and I'm half way
through it must say that I'm impressed with the quality of the print job
(from China, no less) as well as the amount of concise, handy
information arranged in such orderly fashion. Looks like a winner.

Good. I'm delighted you like it. With any luck, it will pay me enough
to let me get rid of all my WalMart furniture (in truth, one computer
desk that I bought for temporary use three or four years ago). It was
probably worth the $49 it cost.

WillR wrote:

Robert Bonomi wrote:

snip

I always suggest that people read the acts and make up their own mine.

The trouble with "read the acts" as advice is that the "acts" are only part
of the story, you also have to read the case law to find out what the
courts think that the "acts" mean.

And before you say "the acts are clear", consider the wide variation in
interpretation of something as simple as "the right of the people to keep
and bear arms shall not be infringed".

*PLUS! I always caution that Copyright violation is in the eye of the
original creator. *

Actually, it is in the eye of the court. In the US you can sue anybody for
anything, but bringing suit doesn't mean that you are going to win.

Suggest you be more careful at claiming expertise unless your contracts
stand up in court. Mine do -- and I still won't make the claims you do.

And yet you claim that the plaintiff rather than the court decides what
constitutes copyright violation and lead people down the primrose path of
"reading the acts" and ignoring the case law.

Err on the part of caution.

Good general advice.

snip


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Most of it is designed on the euro 32-mm system, which is public domain.
So you would probably be safe, unless there are some very distinct
features. The alternative is to look into the 32-mm system, and design
your own from scratch. Given the same dimensional constraints for size,
and similar woods, it is going to come out very similar.

My personal choice, back when I was still copying things, was the thrift
stores. They will frequently sell you a damaged prototype for less than
a set of commercial plans, and you get the hardware to boot.

TrailRat wrote:

A little debate between friends has led me to spill it among the
newsgroup. The debate is over mass produced furniture and the
reproduction of it in a private workshop.

The question goes along these lines. Is approaching a flat-pack
supermarket or furniture store with the intention of copying a piece
illegal.

A few of the answers state that it must be a breach of copyright laws.
Another answer states that if a carpenter copies a piece
unintentionally, then he'd break a copy right law. Other answers state
that various pieces follow the same basic principles, i.e the design of
a wardrobe is the same on many levels but there are many variants.

So whats the opinion of the group. Maybe I'll share it with my friend
next time I'm down the pub. Yes, the debate started over pint.

TR

Greetings and Salutations....

TrailRat wrote:
A little debate between friends has led me to spill it among the
newsgroup. The debate is over mass produced furniture and the
reproduction of it in a private workshop.

The question goes along these lines. Is approaching a flat-pack
supermarket or furniture store with the intention of copying a piece
illegal.

I suspect that "approaching" is not a crime (yet). however,
if you reproduce the piece exactly without the original creator's
permission, you WOULD be in violation of copyright laws.
Now...having said that, it seems that for many cases,
there is a 'wink and a nod' exemption. Most places are not going
to get bent out of shape over an individual making a copy of
their product.
Also, frankly, most of the furniture I see in those places
is really butt-ugly, and I would not want to reproduce it in the first
place. Rather what I would do is get reference materials (books on
furniture design, etc), find something elegant, and build my version
of that.
I will say, though, that I HAVE, in the past, used design
details from several different sources, merged together in one unit.
If one piece of commercial design has an interesting design for
a tambour cover, for example, and, another one has an interesting
drawer/pedestal layout, I might well take those elements and
recombine them. Of course, I always end up changing them slightly
anyway, because I NEVER seem to be satisfied with the exact design.
If we were too strict about the whole idea of copyright,
I suspect that innovation would grind to a halt, as much of that
sort of progress DOES come from exactly the above process...little
bits of ideas from other folks being combined in new ways, and added
to by the person doing the combining.
Regards
Dave Mundt

Suppose you see a plain white T shirt that you like and that you are
an accomplished tailor. You make a white T shirt that appears
identical. Is that OK?

Or, suppose I have a 4 foot long piece of pine lumber that is 3/4"
thick and 4.5" wide. Is it OK for you to rip a 4 foot 1X6 to 4.5"
width, or do I have some kind of "rights" to those dimensions.

How about a shipping pallet? Is it OK for someone to build a duplicate
of one?

What about a plain, slab door? What about a cigar box? How about a
clipboard?

And of course, is it OK to copy a Pointy Stick?



--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

Copyrights, I believe, apply to written or recorded work such as
books, music, movies, etc, and not to items like chairs or tables. The
PLANS to the chair or table could certainly be copyrighted.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

In article ,
Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
Suppose you see a plain white T shirt that you like and that you are
an accomplished tailor. You make a white T shirt that appears
identical. Is that OK?

Or, suppose I have a 4 foot long piece of pine lumber that is 3/4"
thick and 4.5" wide. Is it OK for you to rip a 4 foot 1X6 to 4.5"
width, or do I have some kind of "rights" to those dimensions.

How about a shipping pallet? Is it OK for someone to build a duplicate
of one?

What about a plain, slab door? What about a cigar box? How about a
clipboard?

And of course, is it OK to copy a Pointy Stick?

The answer to "all of the above" is that copyright only protects the
"unique" creative effort that goes into a work.

"Non-unique" characteristics are not protected.

A special Wasserman test will be administered, to see if you can identify
the unique creative elements in each of the above items.

In article ,
Lawrence Wasserman wrote:
Copyrights, I believe, apply to written or recorded work such as
books, music, movies, etc, and not to items like chairs or tables. The
PLANS to the chair or table could certainly be copyrighted.

You are in error.

"ships hulls" are one item that is _specifically_ mentioned in the copyright
statutes.

In article ,
Dave Mundt wrote:
Greetings and Salutations....

TrailRat wrote:
A little debate between friends has led me to spill it among the
newsgroup. The debate is over mass produced furniture and the
reproduction of it in a private workshop.

The question goes along these lines. Is approaching a flat-pack
supermarket or furniture store with the intention of copying a piece
illegal.

I suspect that "approaching" is not a crime (yet). however,
if you reproduce the piece exactly without the original creator's
permission, you WOULD be in violation of copyright laws.

*IF*and *ONLY*IF*, there is sufficient "unique creative effort" in the
piece to merit copyright protection of those 'unique' features.

Absent 'unqiue creative effort' copyright does *not* attach.

The textbook example is the 'white pages' of a telephone directory.
It is just a mechanical compliation of facts. the creative effort
element is lacking. Copyright protection of those 'facts does _not_
exist. *NOT* my opinion -- so said the U.S. Sup. Ct.

Now...having said that, it seems that for many cases,
there is a 'wink and a nod' exemption. Most places are not going
to get bent out of shape over an individual making a copy of
their product.
Also, frankly, most of the furniture I see in those places
is really butt-ugly, and I would not want to reproduce it in the first
place. Rather what I would do is get reference materials (books on
furniture design, etc), find something elegant, and build my version
of that.
I will say, though, that I HAVE, in the past, used design
details from several different sources, merged together in one unit.
If one piece of commercial design has an interesting design for
a tambour cover, for example, and, another one has an interesting
drawer/pedestal layout, I might well take those elements and
recombine them. Of course, I always end up changing them slightly
anyway, because I NEVER seem to be satisfied with the exact design.
If we were too strict about the whole idea of copyright,
I suspect that innovation would grind to a halt, as much of that
sort of progress DOES come from exactly the above process...little
bits of ideas from other folks being combined in new ways, and added
to by the person doing the combining.
Regards
Dave Mundt

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article ,
WillR wrote:

TrailRat wrote:

A little debate between friends has led me to spill it among the
newsgroup. The debate is over mass produced furniture and the
reproduction of it in a private workshop.

The question goes along these lines. Is approaching a flat-pack
supermarket or furniture store with the intention of copying a piece
illegal.

It is. More importantly is that it is a waste of time.


WRONG. What law does "approaching the store" violate? There is _no_
violation of _copyright_ laws, until a "copying" is performed.

((snipped))


You missed a couple of important points in this
message. Time! The piece one copys may well be
a copy of some long ago expression. Even if it is
not, the "copyright" may well have expired, if it
ever existed. More importantly, the piece being
copied, may not be copyrightable, i.e., it is a
common idea.

The subject keeps coming up, but I really can't
imagine anyone giving this idea much concern
except for pieces that are considered "art." Even
in that case, an actual copy in wood of someone
else's art, would be very difficult. And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.

George E. Cawthon wrote:
... And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.

I don't think there is any 'one-off for personal use'
exception in the statutes.

As a practical matter it just isn't worth suing someone for
that sort of violation.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...sup_01_17.html

--

FF

wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote:
... And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.

I don't think there is any 'one-off for personal use'
exception in the statutes.

As a practical matter it just isn't worth suing someone for
that sort of violation.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...sup_01_17.html

--

FF

Some pretty good info he http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q11

wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:

... And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.


I don't think there is any 'one-off for personal use'
exception in the statutes.

As a practical matter it just isn't worth suing someone for
that sort of violation.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...sup_01_17.html


I didn't say anything about a "one off." Make
anything you want in any amount for personal
use--copyrighted, patented. We're talking about
normal stuff and not computer programs which are a
confused mess with shrink wrapped licenses, etc.

Still, the chance of violating a copyright in
furniture by looking at and measuring an item is
virtually zero because the designer is long dead,
the expression is obvious and inevitable, or you
wasn't get it exactly like the model anyway.

George E. Cawthon wrote:
wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:

... And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.


I don't think there is any 'one-off for personal use'
exception in the statutes.

As a practical matter it just isn't worth suing someone for
that sort of violation.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...sup_01_17.html


I didn't say anything about a "one off." Make
anything you want in any amount for personal
use--copyrighted, patented. We're talking about
normal stuff and not computer programs which are a
confused mess with shrink wrapped licenses, etc.

OK, I misrepresented your remarks.

There is no exception in copyright or patent law for items
copied for personal use.

--

FF

George E. Cawthon wrote:

wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:

... And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.


I don't think there is any 'one-off for personal use'
exception in the statutes.

As a practical matter it just isn't worth suing someone for
that sort of violation.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...sup_01_17.html


I didn't say anything about a "one off." Make
anything you want in any amount for personal
use--copyrighted, patented. We're talking about
normal stuff and not computer programs which are a
confused mess with shrink wrapped licenses, etc.

Actually, computer programs are the one area where the statutes specifically
_allow_ making a copy regardless of any licenses or contracts or anything
else.

Still, the chance of violating a copyright in
furniture by looking at and measuring an item is
virtually zero because the designer is long dead,
the expression is obvious and inevitable, or you
wasn't get it exactly like the model anyway.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article ,
George E. Cawthon wrote:
wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:

... And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.


I don't think there is any 'one-off for personal use'
exception in the statutes.

As a practical matter it just isn't worth suing someone for
that sort of violation.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...sup_01_17.html


I didn't say anything about a "one off." Make
anything you want in any amount for personal
use--copyrighted, patented.

You, sir, "know not that of which you speak".

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article ,
George E. Cawthon wrote:

wrote:

George E. Cawthon wrote:


... And of
course there is always the exception of making
something for one for personal use.


I don't think there is any 'one-off for personal use'
exception in the statutes.

As a practical matter it just isn't worth suing someone for
that sort of violation.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...sup_01_17.html


I didn't say anything about a "one off." Make
anything you want in any amount for personal
use--copyrighted, patented.


You, sir, "know not that of which you speak".


Ok, I don't know what I speak of.

Most of the furniture that I've made, if I didn't have a purchased
plan, came from going into high end furniture stores and getting basic
dimensions on a piece. What I made never exactly matched what was in
the store. sales people look at you funny when you measure pieces.

If it is against the law, I'm guilty.

On 2 Jun 2005 11:35:38 -0700, "TrailRat"
wrote:

A little debate between friends has led me to spill it among the
newsgroup. The debate is over mass produced furniture and the
reproduction of it in a private workshop.

The question goes along these lines. Is approaching a flat-pack
supermarket or furniture store with the intention of copying a piece
illegal.

A few of the answers state that it must be a breach of copyright laws.
Another answer states that if a carpenter copies a piece
unintentionally, then he'd break a copy right law. Other answers state
that various pieces follow the same basic principles, i.e the design of
a wardrobe is the same on many levels but there are many variants.

So whats the opinion of the group. Maybe I'll share it with my friend
next time I'm down the pub. Yes, the debate started over pint.

TR