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| Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
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#81
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 21:12:21 GMT, David Harmon
wrote: The dorm cafeteria where I went to college had toasters that ran on 220V. I really used to cringe when I saw people stick forks into them to retrieve stuck pieces of toast. I guess that is routine in the UK though. It's hardly _routine_ to stick forks into live toasters. Few people do it more than once. (Actually it's pretty safe. Only a real moron does it when they're hot and when the power is off, the elements are isolated. Toaster makers _know_ that there will be fools poking Darwin's Fork where they shouldn't, and they do try to take account of this) -- Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet. |
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#82
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Rich Grise wrote:
.... When I was an electronics tech in the US Air Force, ... We also were required to take off all rings and watches, and it was strongly recommended to put one hand in your pocket. There was also the UL about the guy who ohmed out the igniter on an AIM-7 or AIM-9 missile, and the fins cut off both of his hands. Did he then keep one of them in his pocket? |
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#83
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 18:30:38 -0400, Robatoy
wrote: In article 36, Patriarch wrote: Ed & Sue Beresnikow wrote in : Andy Dingley wrote: ....snip... cable and to carry on using it is just pikey. ?? What is the definition here? 'pikey' - don't recognize it as a Canajun term. Andy is a Brit. Do your best to translate from context. ;-) Watch the movie "Snatch" on DVD. Listen carefully to how Brad Pitt talks in that flick. Then, when reading a post from Andy, superimpose, in your mind, Pitt's accent with Andy's words. It will all make sense then. *ducking* A Guy Ritchie film. Snatch, as well as Lock Stock And Two Smoking Barrels are amongst my favourite movies. Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English. There's also the series "A Car Is Reborn", basically the "New Yankee Workshop" approach to restoring a Jaguar XKE. They do occasional segments from some track up north, where a maniac flogs the bejeezus out of some vintage British racing car, usually in ****ing-down rain, jabbering away in what I think is supposed to be English. On average I understand about one word in three. The car's owner is usually in the passenger seat, scared ****less, and AFAICT he doesn't understand what the driver is saying any better than I do. Lee |
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#84
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"Rich Grise" wrote in message news  When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the 4KV plate supply. "Which one killed you?" If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~) If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a different body? Cheers! Rich |
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#85
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On 2005/5/15 12:52 PM, "toller" wrote:
don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100 milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation. You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in sal****er. Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change everything! The situation that you described is worse than standing in salt water. If you really had one hand on the Hot and the other on the Neutral, then the current went right through your chest. |
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#86
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In article , Lee DeRaud wrote:
Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English. It's been done before - remember 'Airplane'? Cracked me up when the guy says "shiiiiiiit" and the subtitle shows "golly!" -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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#87
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#89
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#91
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In article ,
WillR wrote: Good advice Doug. I do triple checks and am used the the rolled eyes from "knowledgeable" people. F** em. It's less stress to do what you suggest, and it's better advice to give. Hear hear! |
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#92
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#93
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In article , toller wrote:
Benton has a chunk of the information in that 120VAC is _DANGEROUS_!! ...and yes at these voltages and frequencies (60Hz) 100mA is almost assuredly deadly. However, under not that unusual conditions fatalities can occur with 120VAC at currents under even 10mA! ..no you don't need to be taking a salt-water bath as there are numerous other items that will drop the skin resistance to permit these fatal current flows including excessive sweating and even more so a break/burn in the skin. Yes, excessive sweating and a break in the skin can allow higher than normal CURRENTS for a given VOLTAGE by lowering the skin RESISTANCE. (though they are unlikely to lower the resistance of your shoes to make you grounded, and without a ground connection, it doesn't matter how low your skin resistance is.) But they will not make 10ma anymore harmful. Exactly what "not that unusual conditions" will 10ma cause fatalities? Being tied up with the wires? Just, for starters, EIGHT to TEN milliamps at the skin surface is sufficient to cause seizure of the muscles, If you are grasping the live contact, you *will*not* be able to let go of it. That same ten milli-amps or so, _while_you_remain_in_contact_with_it_, has all sorts of 'interesting" secondary effects. Affected musculature is spasming -- which differs from *very* heavy exercise only in that the muscles do not get the chance relax completely between contractions. The body reacts to this by increasing the blood-flow to the area; by secreting moisture to the surface of the skin, for evaporative cooling; by migration of intra-cellular fluids into the area to provide more 'food' for the muscle cells, etc. ALL of those things have an effect on the resistance to the electrical current. They all _decrease_ it. Thus, the current flow *CLIMBS*. In addition, as the internal "chemistry" shifts around, the -path- of the current flow changes. All skin/muscles/etc, are _not_ created equal. Some conduct electricity better than others. "nerve cells" are especially good conductors. As the conductivity of the body parts increases -- for the reasons discussed in the previous paragraph -- current flow also tends to become more 'localized'; rather than a low current flow across a wide cross-section, you get high current in relatively small areas, and very little current in adjacent areas. Note well that the conductivity of those 'adjacent areas' has *NOT* decreased. The 'localization' happens because the conductivity of those 'local' areas is *much* better. Oddly enough, this results in increased current flow over-all, as well as radically higher current 'density' in those 'better path' routes. Also, effects on muscle tissue (*and* nerve fiber) depend not only on the current flow, but *HOW*LONG* the current flows. Once you get above a very low threshold (sub-milli-amp), degree of "injury" does increase with continued exposure. And, of course, the higher the current flow, the faster the 'damage' accumulates. "Given time" 10-15 ma, *or*less*, CAN kill you. Disruption of autonomic nervous system functions -- including heart-beat -- "slow cooking" of nervous pathways, etc. Remember, even at that level, if muscles spasm so that you are in contact with the live wire, you will *NOT* get free _by_yourself_. Thus, in a very real sense, "how quickly" things happen is not an issue.  |
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#94
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In article , Robatoy wrote:
In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Lee DeRaud wrote: Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English. It's been done before - remember 'Airplane'? Cracked me up when the guy says "shiiiiiiit" and the subtitle shows "golly!" Do you like watching gladiator movies, Doug? Not particularly; why do you ask? -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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#96
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:
"Rich Grise" wrote in message news When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the 4KV plate supply. "Which one killed you?" If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~) If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a different body? I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-) Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your eyes. Where is your finger pointing? Cheers! Rich |
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#97
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:34:07 -0400, Robatoy wrote:
In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In fact, I do more than that: I plug my tester into something that I'm sure *is* live, to make sure it lights up when it's supposed to, before using on something that I believe to be not live. That's exactly the same thing I do. I don't even trust voltmeters or testers. I want to see them work first. THAT is how electricity is handled. I read something in one of those "home handyman" articles about when you're working on the wiring in, say, a bedroom, but the breaker panel is in the basement, and not labeled well. You get a line- operated radio, and plug it in in the room you want to deenergize, and turn it up loud enough so you can hear it from the basement. Switch off the breakers one at a time, and when you've got the right one, the radio will quit. If any given breaker doesn't turn off the radio, you can turn it back on so you can still see your way up the stairs, of course. :-) Cheers! Rich |
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#98
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In article , Robatoy wrote:
In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: Do you like watching gladiator movies, Doug? Not particularly; why do you ask? 'Twas an Airplane! reference, not funny at this time. DUH! Of course it was. My morning coffee hadn't kicked in yet, I guess. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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#99
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In article , Rich Grise wrote:
I read something in one of those "home handyman" articles about when you're working on the wiring in, say, a bedroom, but the breaker panel is in the basement, and not labeled well. You get a line- operated radio, and plug it in in the room you want to deenergize, and turn it up loud enough so you can hear it from the basement. Switch off the breakers one at a time, and when you've got the right one, the radio will quit. If any given breaker doesn't turn off the radio, you can turn it back on so you can still see your way up the stairs, of course. :-) Yes, that works -- but one of these is a *lot* easier: http://www.lowes. com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12334-1781-GET-1200 -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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#100
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In article ,
Rich Grise wrote: On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote: "Rich Grise" wrote in message news When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the 4KV plate supply. "Which one killed you?" If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~) If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a different body? I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-) Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your eyes. Where is your finger pointing? Cheers! Rich Why...in my nose, of course! |
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#101
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#102
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Rich Grise wrote:
On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote: "Rich Grise" wrote in message news
When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the 4KV plate supply. "Which one killed you?" If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~) If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a different body? I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-) Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your eyes. Where is your finger pointing? At my face. -- Odinn RCOS #7 "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply |
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#103
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Robatoy wrote:
In article , Rich Grise wrote: On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote: "Rich Grise" wrote in message news
When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the 4KV plate supply. "Which one killed you?" If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~) If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a different body? I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-) Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your eyes. Where is your finger pointing? Cheers! Rich Why...in my nose, of course! Well, I wasn't going to say it was THAT close to my face -- Odinn RCOS #7 "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply |
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#104
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Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Don Bruder wrote: In article , LRod wrote: Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check, and the potential consequences of not checking are too high. Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until proven otherwise." If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot, then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise. Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be provided by insert name funeral home." I have been told there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many who were both. My father said the same thing about electricians. - Don Klipstein ) No, but I've met a few who were "Moldy oldie electricians". ;-) -- Former professional electron wrangler. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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#105
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On Sat, 21 May 2005 15:14:50 +0100, Fred Abse wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:33:16 +0000, Don Bruder wrote: Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until proven otherwise." The guy that taught me to shoot had this maxim: "On a range, loaded guns don't kill people. Only unloaded ones" Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of ****. Of course they do, that's what they're for. The problem is stupid people and the governments that they elect killing the _wrong_ people. Thanks, Rich |
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#106
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On Sat, 21 May 2005 04:22:02 +0000, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote: In article , Don Bruder wrote: In article , LRod wrote: Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check, and the potential consequences of not checking are too high. Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until proven otherwise." If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot, then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise. Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be provided by insert name funeral home." I have been told there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many who were both. My father said the same thing about electricians. - Don Klipstein ) No, but I've met a few who were "Moldy oldie electricians". ;-) They check for live circuits with the back of their hand, so that when they clench, it's away from the conductor. ;-) Cheers! Rich |
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#107
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Mine don't. Left alone, they just lay there. You must be talking about the
new animated ones, the ones with free will. Never seen one. "Richard the Dreaded Libertarian" wrote in message news Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of ****. Of course they do, that's what they're for. |
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#108
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In article , Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:
Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of ****. Of course they do, that's what they're for. Nonsense. When has a gun ever pulled its own trigger? As to "what they're for"... most of mine are for killing deer. At least in theory. In practice, it seems that for the most part, they're just for making my arms tired while I sit in a tree stand. Kill people? Yeah, they'd probably work for that, too, but I don't plan to find out. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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