I requested and have received woodcraft catalogue for some time now. I have
ordered from their catalogue, and have been satisfied with the merchandise.
HOWEVER, I received an unsolicited copy of Woodcraft magazine, originating
at the same source as the catalogue, i.e. my name was obtained from their
catalogue mailing list. I phoned to advise that I did not desire to receive
their magazine. Today I received an invoice for the magazine. I phoned
again to advise them to not only pack their magazine where the sun won't
shine on it (I was actually much more discreet with the language, but you
get the picture.), but to remove me from their catalogue mailing list as
well. There are plenty of sources for such as is in their catalogue. I,
for one, refuse to encourage a company which engages in such sleazy
practices. Hope more will do the same.

God gave man the ability to reason for a reason.

Good ol' Bob

Woodworker's Journal (a magazine) tried a similar scam last year. They
started a 'book-a-month club' and sent out the premier issue unsolicited to
people who subscribed to their magazine. The book came with a request for
payment if you wanted to keep the book and prepaid, return postage if you
didn't want the book. I kept the book and tossed the bill and the return
postage coupon. Unsolicited stuff that comes in the mail is free as far as
I'm concerned.

"good ol' Bob" wrote in message
om...
I requested and have received woodcraft catalogue for some time now. I
have ordered from their catalogue, and have been satisfied with the
merchandise. HOWEVER, I received an unsolicited copy of Woodcraft magazine,
originating at the same source as the catalogue, i.e. my name was obtained
from their catalogue mailing list. I phoned to advise that I did not
desire to receive their magazine. Today I received an invoice for the
magazine. I phoned again to advise them to not only pack their magazine
where the sun won't shine on it (I was actually much more discreet with the
language, but you get the picture.), but to remove me from their catalogue
mailing list as well. There are plenty of sources for such as is in their
catalogue. I, for one, refuse to encourage a company which engages in such
sleazy practices. Hope more will do the same.

God gave man the ability to reason for a reason.

Good ol' Bob

Unsolicited stuff received via mail is free as far as the law's
concerned, too.

More than 10 years ago, I edited a magazine about BBSes and (later)
ISPs. One of our writers mentioned a new $12,000 workstation from Sun
(the Indigo) and how he'd "love to have one." The drooling comment was
directed at our readers, not Sun.

Sun sent him one. He wrote a lovely review of it. Almost a year later,
Sun sent him an invoice.
We told 'em to take a hike. They did.

Dhakala wrote:
One of our writers mentioned a new $12,000 workstation from Sun
(the Indigo)

SGI made the Indigo. Sun workstations of that era were SPARCstations.

On Tue, 03 May 2005 02:54:24 GMT, "Jim Giblin"
wrote:

Woodworker's Journal (a magazine) tried a similar scam last year. They
started a 'book-a-month club' and sent out the premier issue unsolicited to
people who subscribed to their magazine. The book came with a request for
payment if you wanted to keep the book and prepaid, return postage if you
didn't want the book. I kept the book and tossed the bill and the return
postage coupon. Unsolicited stuff that comes in the mail is free as far as
I'm concerned.

"good ol' Bob" wrote in message
. com...
I requested and have received woodcraft catalogue for some time now. I
have ordered from their catalogue, and have been satisfied with the
merchandise. HOWEVER, I received an unsolicited copy of Woodcraft magazine,
originating at the same source as the catalogue, i.e. my name was obtained
from their catalogue mailing list. I phoned to advise that I did not
desire to receive their magazine. Today I received an invoice for the
magazine. I phoned again to advise them to not only pack their magazine
where the sun won't shine on it (I was actually much more discreet with the
language, but you get the picture.), but to remove me from their catalogue
mailing list as well. There are plenty of sources for such as is in their
catalogue. I, for one, refuse to encourage a company which engages in such
sleazy practices. Hope more will do the same.

God gave man the ability to reason for a reason.

Good ol' Bob


I also get catalogs from Woodcraft, and subscribe to Woodworker's
Journal. I have NOT had the same experience as the two folks quoted
here. Just thought I'd add a bit of "fair and balanced" reporting.

jmac

pickypickypicky

"Joe User" wrote in message
...
Dhakala wrote:
One of our writers mentioned a new $12,000 workstation from Sun
(the Indigo)

SGI made the Indigo. Sun workstations of that era were SPARCstations.

Good ol' ...

Free sample copies of the magazine are included with orders from
Woodcraft Supply, no strings attached. It is a free gift, with no
obligation whatsoever. There is a sticker on the cover of the free
sample that says, simply, "Free trial issue, subscribe today, return
card inside." That's it. If someone wants to get the magazine, they
return the card. If they don't want the magazine, they don't return
the card. There's no obligation. You don't even have to read the free
issue if you don't want to; give it away if you'd like, or just toss it
out with the rest of the packing material.

You DID NOT receive an invoice for the free issue, or for a
subscription as a result of us sending you a free issue with your
order. No invoices are sent for the free issue of the magazine that is
included with Woodcraft Supply orders. We don't even have invoices
printed to use as follow-ups to the free issue. No process exists for
billing people for the free issue, nor do we have any plans to
institute such. Further, we here at the magazine have no idea who is
ordering from Woodcraft Supply (we're different companies, in different
buildings, located in different zipcodes), so it's not even possible to
know where to send an invoice.

We simply DO NOT send invoices to people who have not requested the
magazine; we only send invoices to people who have either requested the
magazine or who have returned the subscription card.

The free issue is not a sleaze. Not a scam. It's just a free issue.
Period.

A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

Good ol' ...

Free sample copies of the magazine are included with orders from
Woodcraft Supply, no strings attached. It is a free gift, with no
obligation whatsoever. There is a sticker on the cover of the free
sample that says, simply, "Free trial issue, subscribe today, return
card inside." That's it. If someone wants to get the magazine, they
return the card. If they don't want the magazine, they don't return
the card. There's no obligation. You don't even have to read the free
issue if you don't want to; give it away if you'd like, or just toss it
out with the rest of the packing material.

We have also sent sample issues out to names from the Woodcraft Supply
customer lists as part of a one-time mass mailing. Again, these are
free samples sent to entice folks to subscribe. Every magazine does
this. There is no obligation, and no invoice is sent unless the
recipient has returned the card or ordered the magazine

You DID NOT receive an invoice for the free issue, or for a
subscription as a result of us sending you a free issue, either with an
order or as part of the mass mailing.

No invoices are sent for the free issue of the magazine that is
included with Woodcraft Supply orders. We don't even have invoices
printed to use as follow-ups to the free issue. No process exists for
billing people for the free issue, nor do we have any plans to
institute such. Further, we here at the magazine have no idea who is
ordering from Woodcraft Supply (we're different companies, in different
buildings, located in different zipcodes), so it's not even possible to
know where to send an invoice.

We simply DO NOT send invoices to people who have not requested the
magazine; we only send invoices to people who have either requested the
magazine or who have returned the subscription card.

The free issue is not a sleaze. Not a scam. It's just a free issue.
Period.

A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

It takes a long time to stop a magazine subscription--it's been that
way for years despite computerized operations. I write "Cancel" on
the invoice and mail it back--that has always worked for me. I don't
ever order a "trial" copy of a magazine. After a subscription runs
out I get begging letters for 2 or 3 years to re-subscribe, so I
havn't ordered any magazines for over 10 years. I dislike junk mail.

On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:50:54 GMT, "good ol' Bob"
wrote:

I requested and have received woodcraft catalogue for some time now. I have
ordered from their catalogue, and have been satisfied with the merchandise.
HOWEVER, I received an unsolicited copy of Woodcraft magazine, originating
at the same source as the catalogue, i.e. my name was obtained from their
catalogue mailing list. I phoned to advise that I did not desire to receive
their magazine. Today I received an invoice for the magazine. I phoned
again to advise them to not only pack their magazine where the sun won't
shine on it (I was actually much more discreet with the language, but you
get the picture.), but to remove me from their catalogue mailing list as
well. There are plenty of sources for such as is in their catalogue. I,
for one, refuse to encourage a company which engages in such sleazy
practices. Hope more will do the same.

God gave man the ability to reason for a reason.

Good ol' Bob

Excellent response. Now maybe the OP will look again at the "invoice" and
let us know what he received.

At any rate, appreciate your input.

Bob S.


"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Good ol' ...

Free sample copies of the magazine are included with orders from
Woodcraft Supply, no strings attached. It is a free gift, with no
obligation whatsoever. There is a sticker on the cover of the free
sample that says, simply, "Free trial issue, subscribe today, return
card inside." That's it. If someone wants to get the magazine, they
return the card. If they don't want the magazine, they don't return
the card. There's no obligation. You don't even have to read the free
issue if you don't want to; give it away if you'd like, or just toss it
out with the rest of the packing material.

You DID NOT receive an invoice for the free issue, or for a
subscription as a result of us sending you a free issue with your
order. No invoices are sent for the free issue of the magazine that is
included with Woodcraft Supply orders. We don't even have invoices
printed to use as follow-ups to the free issue. No process exists for
billing people for the free issue, nor do we have any plans to
institute such. Further, we here at the magazine have no idea who is
ordering from Woodcraft Supply (we're different companies, in different
buildings, located in different zipcodes), so it's not even possible to
know where to send an invoice.

We simply DO NOT send invoices to people who have not requested the
magazine; we only send invoices to people who have either requested the
magazine or who have returned the subscription card.

The free issue is not a sleaze. Not a scam. It's just a free issue.
Period.

A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

Phisherman writes:

It takes a long time to stop a magazine subscription--it's been that
way for years despite computerized operations. I write "Cancel" on
the invoice and mail it back--that has always worked for me. I don't
ever order a "trial" copy of a magazine. After a subscription runs
out I get begging letters for 2 or 3 years to re-subscribe, so I
havn't ordered any magazines for over 10 years. I dislike junk mail.

Any print media pretty much makes more money on advertising than on
selling the magazine itself. Magazines will sometimes keep on sending out
issues so they count as circulation to boost advertising rates.

I work for a major newspaper and the amount we charge for the paper is
only a fraction more than what it costs for just the newsprint in each
paper. Advertising is what pays the bills for a newspaper. How many
people would pay $2 a day or more for a newspaper?

Brian Elfert

"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

Yes, but the twits sent a second request for payment. That is SLEAZY
marketing. No, I'm not sending it back, no I'm not paying for it. If they
are dumb enough to send a free book to me, that is their problem.

BTW, how do you know so much about someone else's business? Perhaps you
should mind your own and let WJ take care of their own lumps for such
marking ploys.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:


"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

Yes, but the twits sent a second request for payment. That is SLEAZY
marketing. No, I'm not sending it back, no I'm not paying for it. If they
are dumb enough to send a free book to me, that is their problem.

BTW, how do you know so much about someone else's business?
Sounds to me like someone who very wisely keeps a close watch on what
his competitor is doing.

Perhaps you
should mind your own and let WJ take care of their own lumps for such
marking ploys.
This sounds emotional for you. Frankly, I appreciate his trying to
"clear the air" about his competitor's action while he is addressing
concerns about his firm raised here. The fact that he is "defending"
his competitor gives a fair amount of credence to the idea that is a
misunderstanding of the nature of their solicitation.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

I also have not had that experience. I've receive no unsolitited
magazine or anything I dislike. In fact, when I receved a shipment from
Woodcraft today, it had several pieces of hard candy in it. The item
was backordered so I figured it was their form of an apology....nice
touch.

"alexy" wrote in message
This sounds emotional for you. Frankly, I appreciate his trying to
"clear the air" about his competitor's action while he is addressing
concerns about his firm raised here. The fact that he is "defending"
his competitor gives a fair amount of credence to the idea that is a
misunderstanding of the nature of their solicitation.

It gives credence in your opinion, but I'd think it more believable had I
not gotten a second request for payment.

It is also possible he has first hand knowledge of what the "competition" is
doing because the publishing house may be in cahoots with both. Who knows,
he may be the guy that brainstormed the WJ book deal.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's
Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it
came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the
club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or
you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

Yes, but the twits sent a second request for payment. That is SLEAZY

marketing. No, I'm not sending it back, no I'm not paying for it.
If they
are dumb enough to send a free book to me, that is their problem.

BTW, how do you know so much about someone else's business? Perhaps
you
should mind your own and let WJ take care of their own lumps for such

marking ploys.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

Usually, I agree with most of what you say. This time, no. A.J. is
right. And keeping track of the competition is what goes on in almost
any business, as you damned well know. You later state that he might
have brainstormed the deal...you need to slow down and think. A.J.
formerly was editor of Woodshop News, not related to either WSC or
Rockler. Add to that the fact he now works for WSC, a major competitor
of the owner of WWJ (Rockler). Add to that that A.J. has a pretty good
ethical standard, and I think you're way the hell off base here.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"alexy" wrote in message
This sounds emotional for you. Frankly, I appreciate his trying to
"clear the air" about his competitor's action while he is addressing
concerns about his firm raised here. The fact that he is "defending"
his competitor gives a fair amount of credence to the idea that is a
misunderstanding of the nature of their solicitation.

It gives credence in your opinion, but I'd think it more believable had I
not gotten a second request for payment.

It is also possible he has first hand knowledge of what the "competition"
is doing because the publishing house may be in cahoots with both. Who
knows, he may be the guy that brainstormed the WJ book deal.

Ed:
Like Charlie Self, I agree with most of what you post, but not on this one.
I worked in media for years, magazines and newspapers, and I can assure you
that competitors DO NOT get "in cahoots" about anything, least of all
circulation. Most of what you've written is just speculation with absolutely
no facts behind it.
The whole idea of the free issue ploy is to get the prospect to subscribe
using the bounce-back card that's enclosed. Invoicing after sending a free
issue is just a waste of time--actually counterproductive since it ****es
off too many of the prospects. And a "publishing house" is a term to
describe just that--the publisher. In this case we're talking about two
different, competing publishers.
It would best if you put down the keyboard and backed away on this one. 8-)

Bob

Mr. A.J. Hamler:

You, sir, are either completely unaware of what transpires within your own
company or are a bold face liar posting here on this newsgroup to deny your
company's practices. I have in my hand an INVOICE from your company,
numbered 101, and with an account number of 110116. It is in the amount of
$38.35, and is for a period of one year which includes 7 issues. I was
quite puzzled when I originally received a copy of the magazine as it was my
first awareness that such a magazine existed. I was concerned that there
had been a mix-up so I went to the trouble to call and advise your company
that I had no desire to receive the magazine. I recently received the now
much discussed INVOICE from your company, and followed up with yet another
phone call to cancel the magazine and the catalogue. The original magazine
did NOT come as part of any other package. There was no "sticker" anywhere
on or in the magazine explaining anything. Your desperate online denial of
these facts convinces me that I have done the right thing in terminating any
relationship with your company that I may have had in the future.


"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Good ol' ...

Free sample copies of the magazine are included with orders from
Woodcraft Supply, no strings attached. It is a free gift, with no
obligation whatsoever. There is a sticker on the cover of the free
sample that says, simply, "Free trial issue, subscribe today, return
card inside." That's it. If someone wants to get the magazine, they
return the card. If they don't want the magazine, they don't return
the card. There's no obligation. You don't even have to read the free
issue if you don't want to; give it away if you'd like, or just toss it
out with the rest of the packing material.

You DID NOT receive an invoice for the free issue, or for a
subscription as a result of us sending you a free issue with your
order. No invoices are sent for the free issue of the magazine that is
included with Woodcraft Supply orders. We don't even have invoices
printed to use as follow-ups to the free issue. No process exists for
billing people for the free issue, nor do we have any plans to
institute such. Further, we here at the magazine have no idea who is
ordering from Woodcraft Supply (we're different companies, in different
buildings, located in different zipcodes), so it's not even possible to
know where to send an invoice.

We simply DO NOT send invoices to people who have not requested the
magazine; we only send invoices to people who have either requested the
magazine or who have returned the subscription card.

The free issue is not a sleaze. Not a scam. It's just a free issue.
Period.

A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

Mr. Jones...

Thanks for the account number. The number made it easier to check
things out than do your ravings.

To make this easy for you to understand, I'll use short sentences.

You, or someone you know, returned an insert card asking to receive the
magazine. The card was of the bind-in type that you have to physically
tear out. It came from the October Woodcraft Supply Catalog. It was
filled out by hand with your name and address. We received the card on
12-1-04. We only send invoices to people who have filled out and sent
in the card. We received the card; the invoice followed. We still
have the card on file. Your computer record shows that the
subscription has been canceled.

However, because things take a bit of time, you will still likely
receive issue #4. Consider it a gift. Consider it junk mail. Consider
it a dead fish if you like.

By the way, the phrase is "bald-faced liar," not "bold face liar."

Have a nice day, and don't forget those meds.

A.J.

"A.J. Hamler" wrote:

Mr. Jones...

Thanks for the account number. The number made it easier to check
things out than do your ravings.

To make this easy for you to understand, I'll use short sentences.

You, or someone you know, returned an insert card asking to receive the
magazine. The card was of the bind-in type that you have to physically
tear out. It came from the October Woodcraft Supply Catalog. It was
filled out by hand with your name and address. We received the card on
12-1-04. We only send invoices to people who have filled out and sent
in the card. We received the card; the invoice followed. We still
have the card on file. Your computer record shows that the
subscription has been canceled.

However, because things take a bit of time, you will still likely
receive issue #4. Consider it a gift. Consider it junk mail. Consider
it a dead fish if you like.

By the way, the phrase is "bald-faced liar," not "bold face liar."

Have a nice day, and don't forget those meds.

A.J.

LOL! That was pretty easy to guess. I was going to suggest to "good
ol" that a statement of the facts and request for looking into them
might be more effective than name-calling, but you are to be commended
for rising above it.

P.S. While some folks complaining here have come out looking like the
north end of a south-bound horse, I still think it would be in order
for you to review procedures to see how a misunderstanding like this
got escalated to this degree of frustration.


--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Jim, I just got one of those 'Books of the Month' from Woodworkers
Journal & was ticked off to no end as well. I'm doing the same as you
did. It's a shame, too because the magazine is OK, but I'll wind up
dropping it if I get even a little grief from them.

Jim

A.J. Hamler - I'll disagree with you about the Woodworker's Journal
scam because the card that you can send back in only gives you 2 of the
3 choices that are in the letter. Unless you read the last paragraph
of the letter, your options are to pay $9 for a book you didn't order
OR send it back. There is no check box item for "Thanks, I'm keeping
it at no charge & don't want to participate." Just FYI, but the whole
thing seems sleazy to me. I have second thoughts about even
subscribing to the magazine now. I get enough junk mail & email. I
don't need more 'free' offers to wade through.

Jim

Jim ...

I'll disagree with you about the Woodworker's Journal
scam because the card that you can send back in only gives you 2 of the
3 choices that are in the letter. Unless you read the last paragraph
of the letter, your options are to pay $9 for a book you didn't order
OR send it back. There is no check box item for "Thanks, I'm keeping
it at no charge & don't want to participate."

The reason there is no third choice printed on the card is that there
doesn't need to be. The law says you may keep the book (or any unsolicited
merchandise a company might send you) as a "gift" and that's the end of it.
The company wants to know if you'll be ordering more books or you want to
keep the one they sent you but, for some reason known only to you, you don't
feel right about not paying for it. In each of those cases you would be
sending them money so they need you send in the card in order for them to
set up your account. In the event that you don't plan to pay for the
book, the company has no need for a paperwork trail so they just leave that
choice out of the equasion. (I guess it pays to read the last paragraph of
the letter that comes with stuff you didn't order.)
Think of it this way: if a telemarketer calls you during dinner trying to
sell you some crap you don't want, do feel the need to write the company a
letter saying "thanks but no thanks?" For me, hanging up on them is all the
response they require.

Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

In other words, just toss it out.

All companies do this, not just magazines. If you don't want the
offer, toss it out. What could be easier? When you pick up the
newspaper, there are hundreds of ads in it, each of which is doing
exactly the same thing that a magazine or book solicitation does: get
your business. Do you feel a need to contact every advertiser in your
newspaper and tell them no? I doubt it. You just toss it out. Same
thing. Like Lee said, hang up on them, keep it, or toss it out --
that's the end of it.

Look, you don't need a reason not to do business with someone or some
company or some publisher. No reason at all other than you just don't
wanna. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't hurt our feelings,
either. You don't want our magazine? Fine, we understand that it just
doesn't fit your needs. No hard feelings, keep the freebie,
love-ya-never-change.

You don't want the lawn service advertised in this morning's newspaper?
Well, don't call them. You don't like Woodworker's Journal and you
don't want to subscribe? OK, but don't blame their book club offer you
didn't bother to read the last paragraph of as your reason for never
looking at the magazine again. You didn't care for the free issue of
Woodcraft Magazine we sent you? Ditto. Don't subscribe. But don't
use that as a lame excuse to never order from the catalog. If you
don't like what's in the catalog, then just don't buy anything from it.
Why the need to make up some reason and claim sleaze 'n' scam when
it's just not there?

But please, don't accuse a magazine -- mine, or anyone else's -- of
sending invoices out willy-nilly to folks who didn't actively request
the magazine unless you know what you're talking about.

A.J.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
Usually, I agree with most of what you say. This time, no. A.J. is
right. And keeping track of the competition is what goes on in almost
any business, as you damned well know. You later state that he might
have brainstormed the deal...you need to slow down and think. A.J.
formerly was editor of Woodshop News, not related to either WSC or
Rockler. Add to that the fact he now works for WSC, a major competitor
of the owner of WWJ (Rockler). Add to that that A.J. has a pretty good
ethical standard, and I think you're way the hell off base here.


Bob said:
Like Charlie Self, I agree with most of what you post, but not on this
one.
I worked in media for years, magazines and newspapers, and I can assure
you
that competitors DO NOT get "in cahoots" about anything, least of all
circulation. Most of what you've written is just speculation with
absolutely
no facts behind it.

Looks like I touched a couple of nerves. That's not always a bad thing.

I have no idea of AJ's ethical standards, nor do I question them. It is,
however, very common for the management of a publisher, TV network, radio
network, newspaper, to all work under the same banner or corporate umbrella.

I'm sure you are well aware of NBC, CNBC MSNBC, USA, are all part of one
conglomerate, just like Time-Life and Reader Digest have many publications
under the same corporate banner.

AJ has every right to defend what his company did or did not do in the case
of unwanted subscriptions. I have no reason not to believe what he said. I
do, however, think he went a bit overboard to put the white hat on the guys
at Woodworker's Journal and the books/invoice they sent out.

I'm well aware of the law, but it is still sleazy marketing. How many times
have you seen postings here the a woodworker want to buy a tool buy has to
ask permission from his wife? Too many, IMO. But look at this scenario.
Using a fictitious name, let's say Charlie subscribes to Woodworker"s
Journal. They send him a free book unsolicited. AJ thinks he is not
interested and discards the material that came with it. Perfectly legal. A
month later, WJ sends Charlie a bill for the book again. This time it is in
the mail along with the electric bill and the liquor store bill. Charlie's
wife brings in the mail and puts it away. A few days later she decide to pay
the bills and just grabs the book bill, figuring her husband ordered it, and
just pays it. Far fetched? No, book and record company hustlers depends on
this sort of thing to eke out a living. Columbia Records will track you
down and send you offers for years, even if you change addresses four states
away.

It is strictly my own opinion (and a not humble one at all) that he
concentrate on his own business when he is posting about it in a public
forum and not try to justify what others do. I'd welcome a response from WJ
on the matter and they have every right to defend and explain themselves
when they are taken to task publicly. . If AJ wants to reply as an
uninterested party, he can do that, but once he posts under the Woodcraft
Magazine corporate banner he should stick with that only. If I was the CEO
of Woodcraft, I'd be ****ed that he overstepped his bounds bringing others
into the discussion, but that is just me..
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
But please, don't accuse a magazine -- mine, or anyone else's -- of
sending invoices out willy-nilly to folks who didn't actively request
the magazine unless you know what you're talking about.

A.J.


But I did get a couple of invoices from WJ for their stinkin' unsolicited
book. But your' right, they were not sent willy-nilly, they know exactly
what they are doing.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

... but that is just me.

You may be right.

A.J.

On Tue, 03 May 2005 16:33:42 GMT, "Vic Baron"
wrote:

pickypickypicky

"Joe User" wrote in message
...
Dhakala wrote:
One of our writers mentioned a new $12,000 workstation from Sun
(the Indigo)

SGI made the Indigo. Sun workstations of that era were SPARCstations.


Probably can get 'em for $50 on eBay these days.....

Ahhh, SGI.....

Ahhh, Sun.....

- daltec

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"A.J. Hamler" wrote in message
But please, don't accuse a magazine -- mine, or anyone else's -- of
sending invoices out willy-nilly to folks who didn't actively request
the magazine unless you know what you're talking about.

A.J.


But I did get a couple of invoices from WJ for their stinkin' unsolicited
book. But your' right, they were not sent willy-nilly, they know exactly
what they are doing.
--

So, you get an invoice for that drill gage the Handyman Club sent?

A.J. Hamler wrote:
Good ol' ...

Free sample copies of the magazine are included with orders from
Woodcraft Supply, no strings attached. It is a free gift, with no
obligation whatsoever. There is a sticker on the cover of the free
sample that says, simply, "Free trial issue, subscribe today, return
card inside." That's it. If someone wants to get the magazine, they
return the card. If they don't want the magazine, they don't return
the card. There's no obligation. You don't even have to read the
free
issue if you don't want to; give it away if you'd like, or just toss
it
out with the rest of the packing material.

We have also sent sample issues out to names from the Woodcraft
Supply
customer lists as part of a one-time mass mailing. Again, these are
free samples sent to entice folks to subscribe. Every magazine does
this. There is no obligation, and no invoice is sent unless the
recipient has returned the card or ordered the magazine

You DID NOT receive an invoice for the free issue, or for a
subscription as a result of us sending you a free issue, either with
an
order or as part of the mass mailing.

No invoices are sent for the free issue of the magazine that is
included with Woodcraft Supply orders. We don't even have invoices
printed to use as follow-ups to the free issue. No process exists
for
billing people for the free issue, nor do we have any plans to
institute such. Further, we here at the magazine have no idea who is
ordering from Woodcraft Supply (we're different companies, in
different
buildings, located in different zipcodes), so it's not even possible
to
know where to send an invoice.

We simply DO NOT send invoices to people who have not requested the
magazine; we only send invoices to people who have either requested
the
magazine or who have returned the subscription card.

The free issue is not a sleaze. Not a scam. It's just a free issue.
Period.

A.J. Hamler, editor
Woodcraft Magazine

PS... Someone else in this thread mentioned the "Woodworker's Journal
scam." It was no such thing. Their free book DID NOT come with a
request for payment if you want to keep the book. Their hope, of
course, was that you'd want to sign up for the book club, but it came
with crystal-clear instructions that whether you chose to join the
club
or not, that the book was a gift --- it was yours to keep, free, or
you
could send it back prepaid, without obligation.

I completely disagree with teh Woodworker's Journal information. I got
the book in the mail. I didn't want to join their club so I assumed it
was free. Several weeks later, I received an invoice wanting $9 for the
book or the book back. I went back and looked through the info they
had originally sent and it never stated the book was free - there was a
free coin or something. They wanted me to review the book and either
pay for it or return it - I figure the value of time for looking
through their book and packing it for them is worth more than the book.


I was very upset to get this letter. I have considered sending a
letter butI still haven't responded.

If I receive another invoice or anything else from them wanting money,
I'll complain to the state's attorney general's office and/or postal
inspectors. I'm suprised no one has done it already. If they do
something stupid like having a collector call, they deal with an
attorney.

"gaw2" wrote in message
oups.com...
I completely disagree with teh Woodworker's Journal information. I got
the book in the mail. I didn't want to join their club so I assumed it
was free. Several weeks later, I received an invoice wanting $9 for the
book or the book back. I went back and looked through the info they
had originally sent and it never stated the book was free - there was a
free coin or something. They wanted me to review the book and either
pay for it or return it - I figure the value of time for looking
through their book and packing it for them is worth more than the book.


I was very upset to get this letter. I have considered sending a
letter butI still haven't responded.

They do not point out the last option. Do nothing and keep the book.

You have no obligation to return it and the law supports this fact.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in
:


"gaw2" wrote in message
oups.com...
I completely disagree with teh Woodworker's Journal information. I got
the book in the mail. I didn't want to join their club so I assumed
it was free. Several weeks later, I received an invoice wanting $9
for the book or the book back. I went back and looked through the
info they had originally sent and it never stated the book was free -
there was a free coin or something. They wanted me to review the
book and either pay for it or return it - I figure the value of time
for looking through their book and packing it for them is worth more
than the book.


I was very upset to get this letter. I have considered sending a
letter butI still haven't responded.

They do not point out the last option. Do nothing and keep the book.

You have no obligation to return it and the law supports this fact.


Actually, in the letter(s) I got, that option was spelled out. In a
different, later, section, but spelled out. Perhaps a different letter
went to California residents, as our laws may differ here.

The intent was, I believe, as has been expressed in someone else's
earlier post, to have folks believe that they had to 'do something',
even though they had not initiated the transaction.

And that, I believe, is deceptive. Sleazy.

The 'red oak' coin went into my golf bag, possibly to be used as a ball
marker, if I decide not to use the Canadian Loonie that's also in the
collection...

Patriarch

"Patriarch" wrote in message
Actually, in the letter(s) I got, that option was spelled out. In a
different, later, section, but spelled out. Perhaps a different letter
went to California residents, as our laws may differ here.

The intent was, I believe, as has been expressed in someone else's
earlier post, to have folks believe that they had to 'do something',
even though they had not initiated the transaction.

And that, I believe, is deceptive. Sleazy.

I recall hte first letter has something like that. l The second bill did not
that I noticed. They tried to make you feel bad for not returning it. I
sent the invoice back with a note stating that if they are dumb enough to
send it to me, I'm smart enough to keep it.


if I decide not to use the Canadian Loonie that's also in the
collection...

Hey, don't call the Canadians Loonie, they are our friends

What happened to good ol' Bob in all of this?