This is a sort of follow up to Owen Lowe's excellent thread about our
history and whether I'm right or wrong, please add your thoughts.

Woodturning is a great and growing hobby and/or small business that many
seem to consider a second rate art form. Why? Probably the percentage
of our 'good enough' work to that highly acclaimed by a discriminating
public is the same as that for most other art/crafts. There are an awful
lot of happy hobby painters who are failed artists.

Are we too inbred? Isn't the great majority of our art work done to
please our peers? Are our peers discriminating critics or just an
ordinary support group? A true critique with no dissembling praise of a
picayune turning nowadays is hard to find. Are the really successful
artists in other mediums nice guys like our leaders who share their
knowledge and works and involve themselves with any and every level of
woodturning? Are our organizations, net forums, websites, magazines,
instant galleries and symposiums mostly geared toward hobbyists who
dabble in the difficult professions of good craft and fine art?

For me this state of affairs is fine and entirely satisfactory, but then
perhaps I shouldn't deplore the current state of the public's acceptance
of turned wood. I wonder if the efforts we make and objects we turn to
please each other and the objects that hold their own with other media
might not be mutually exclusive.

Just a thought. What's your take?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Arch" wrote in message
...
This is a sort of follow up to Owen Lowe's excellent thread about our
history and whether I'm right or wrong, please add your thoughts.

Woodturning is a great and growing hobby and/or small business that many
seem to consider a second rate art form. Why? Probably the percentage
of our 'good enough' work to that highly acclaimed by a discriminating
public is the same as that for most other art/crafts. There are an awful
lot of happy hobby painters who are failed artists.

Are we too inbred? Isn't the great majority of our art work done to
please our peers? Are our peers discriminating critics or just an
ordinary support group? A true critique with no dissembling praise of a
picayune turning nowadays is hard to find. Are the really successful
artists in other mediums nice guys like our leaders who share their
knowledge and works and involve themselves with any and every level of
woodturning? Are our organizations, net forums, websites, magazines,
instant galleries and symposiums mostly geared toward hobbyists who
dabble in the difficult professions of good craft and fine art?

For me this state of affairs is fine and entirely satisfactory, but then
perhaps I shouldn't deplore the current state of the public's acceptance
of turned wood. I wonder if the efforts we make and objects we turn to
please each other and the objects that hold their own with other media
might not be mutually exclusive.

Just a thought. What's your take?

Strange you should bring this up, though perhaps you're looking at the same
Molly thread on WC as I was this morning. I'll cut and paste from an e-mail
I sent to another turner.

"Rejection and juries under discussion reminds me.

I can still remember a "how to enter juried shows" presentation I attended
years ago, where this ditsy (photographer) who was dean at the A&D
department at the college taught me a valuable lesson. She looked at a
piece I had turned end grain with both heart in and a knot with reaction
wood running on the side, and said "it has more than one center of interest.
It will distract people, and detract from the piece if you don't limit it."
The lesson? Never pay to have "experts" jury anything. I avoid shows with
a non-refundable jury fee now. Of course, it's easy to do, given my limited
production capability, but I always think back to her, and her type, who
think I can make a knot go away, as if I were a painter, and base their
judgment on that.

Oh well, all but one entry has been sent to the tender mercies of other
"artists," normally painters, so nothing to be done. Looks like today will
have abundant sunlight to shoot for the final one. They said they'd take
digital, so that's what I'll do."

I'd be nice to have a potter, a turner, and maybe a flat wood worker on the
jury. They would understand the limitations placed on us by method and
material, though works not in the current "trendy" genre might still be
rejected. We just do what we must to gain the opportunity to place our work
before the real jury - the buying public. I tend to shoot one standard
bowl, one spalted, and one interrupted edge as my three slides. A little
bit for the practical as well as the artsy types.

(Arch) writes:

Are we too inbred? Isn't the great majority of our art work done to
please our peers? Are our peers discriminating critics or just an
ordinary support group?

Well, some feel that true art requires some sort of risk.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be art.

And peers can recognize risk. But an artist will do it for the sheer
challenge. Then again many times the artist isn't recognized while
alive.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

George, thanks for your usual good response. I looked over at WC, but I
wasn't musing about Molly or Dave or any of the respondents to that
thread. I count each one a superior turner with intellectual integrity.
Should any of them look this way, please know that you aren't who I had
in mind or meant to allude to and I'm not supporting mediocrity by
saying so.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"George" george@least wrote:

Of course, it's easy to do, given my limited
production capability, but I always think back to her, and her type, who
think I can make a knot go away, as if I were a painter, and base their
judgment on that.



It is easy to make the knot go away. Just don't enter the piece. I'm not
saying she was right, but it sounds like she gave a fair judgement based on
'art' and her background. Photographers probably never show more than 10%
of the shots they take.

We do have limitations in the material we use and it is correspondingly
more difficult for us to reject a piece we have put so much effort into,
but if we want to be judged as 'artists' we will be judged by the standards
of 'art'.

I turn wood for the pleasure and relaxation it gives me. I find when
working on an interesting piece of wood my mind is free from a thousand
other pressures. I don't turn to exhibit or sell, I enjoy giving my
turnings away to those who genuinely appreciate them. When I finish a
turning and I like it then really, that's all that matters to me. I guess
if I worried about the "discriminating public" then I wouldn't want this as
a hobby.
--
Bill Gooch
Kemptville, ON.
www.northgrenville.on.ca

Lobby Dosser wrote in
news:hHh2e.15533$Go4.6574@trnddc05:

"George" george@least wrote:

Of course, it's easy to do, given my limited
production capability, but I always think back to her, and her type,
who think I can make a knot go away, as if I were a painter, and base
their judgment on that.



It is easy to make the knot go away. Just don't enter the piece. I'm
not saying she was right, but it sounds like she gave a fair judgement
based on 'art' and her background. Photographers probably never show
more than 10% of the shots they take.


Potters refer to the experience as 'making rocks'. So much of the output
is dependent on variables which are quite difficult to control, outside of
a factory.

Knowing what to keep, and what to convert back to fuel, is something the
woodworker needs to learn, as fundamental as sharpening a tool edge.

Patriarch

"Bruce Barnett"
Well, some feel that true art requires some sort of risk.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be art.

Andy Warhol did a movie once of the empire state building shot from however
many angles and going for however many hours. I can only imagine the risk he
took was that of looking like a fool.

'High art' forms have their existance justified by themselves. (Art for
Art's sake) Yet turning wood is necessary to create a round leg for a chair
or a hollowed out bowl.
I think that as our art has a purpose (other than itself) we aren't
considered true art.
mick

Patriarch wrote:

Lobby Dosser wrote in
news:hHh2e.15533$Go4.6574@trnddc05:

"George" george@least wrote:

Of course, it's easy to do, given my limited
production capability, but I always think back to her, and her type,
who think I can make a knot go away, as if I were a painter, and
base their judgment on that.



It is easy to make the knot go away. Just don't enter the piece. I'm
not saying she was right, but it sounds like she gave a fair
judgement based on 'art' and her background. Photographers probably
never show more than 10% of the shots they take.


Potters refer to the experience as 'making rocks'. So much of the
output is dependent on variables which are quite difficult to control,
outside of a factory.

Knowing what to keep, and what to convert back to fuel, is something
the woodworker needs to learn, as fundamental as sharpening a tool
edge.

Yep. And I create a Lot of Fuel.


Patriarch

"Bill Gooch" wrote in message
...
I turn wood for the pleasure and relaxation it gives me. I find when
working on an interesting piece of wood my mind is free from a thousand
other pressures. I don't turn to exhibit or sell, I enjoy giving my
turnings away to those who genuinely appreciate them. When I finish a
turning and I like it then really, that's all that matters to me. I guess
if I worried about the "discriminating public" then I wouldn't want this as
a hobby.
--
Bill Gooch
Kemptville, ON.
www.northgrenville.on.ca


Truly, a hobby is something done strictly for oneself. Not for profit. Not
for glory. Only for self gratification. I have a second hobby. For nearly
twenty years, I've sang barbershop music. Although I sing in front of
audiences and wanted to please them, my only real pleasure was the
harmonizing and "doing it the best I could". Although the chorus will
charge for singing, it's to keep the chapter alive and support music
education in schools. No money comes to me. In fact, like wood turning,
it's costing me to maintain the hobby.

My wood turning (for what it's worth at this early stage) is little
different than my barbershop singing. I do it for myself. Sure others are
going to see what I've done and I'd like them to appreciate it. However,
everyone has their opinion just like I do. I reshaped a piece of wood to
make something I found pleasant to my eye. If others like it, great. If
they don't, so be it. I have my pleasure and that's all that matters to me.

I think that once a profit is being made from the "hobby" that it has
progressed into a business - no matter how small it is. Pleasure can still
be derived from the business but it's no longer a true hobby.

Bill, I hope to get to the point you are at. I expect to take additional
pleasure in giving my pieces away. I suppose you can call a smile and thank
you a payment, but it's no profit.

10sc

Arch,

I would say that some woodturners view their critique group as their
club members or other turners. Some view their customer base as their
critique group. Some view gallery owners as the critique group. All
have a part to play in our development, but none should be considered
exclusively.

I once made a very nice vase with a good form that had a big knot hole
in the side. I thought it was great. My wife didn't like the knot
hole. She is not a woodturner and has no appreciation for that. I had
another piece that had a crack which I filled with red epoxy. My mom
loved that piece and still displays it in her house to this day. The
consumer often cares very little for the process or the difficulty of a
piece. They just go for what they like - however artistically informed
they may or may not be.

A gallery owner has his/her eye toward what sells. It that always the
best art? Maybe - maybe not. I was traveling through the redwoods
last summer and ran across a little souvenir shop. They had 10"
redwood bowls for $100 and more. These were quite chunky with poor
form (IMHO). They had screw holes in the bottom. They probably sell
quite well.

Woodturners are often the most likely reviewers of our work. They
stick their fingers in hollow vessels to feel for ridges. They hold
thin bowls up to the light to see translucence. They hold object to
judge balance. They look for sanding marks. My wife has never done
any of these things.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

You're right Joe. As woodturners, we tend to place a higher expectation
on our work. Similarly, we seek affirmation for what we do from others.
What I may see as a very nice piece, because I know what went into
making it, may be seen by others as a piece of junk. If my reaction to
that is to try to please others, then I will go from creating art to
creating consumer goods. I have a piece that I will never give away
because, a) I don't think it's good enough to go elswhere and, more
importantly, b) there is something about the piece that just makes me
want to handle and look at it. Other people say it's very nice, but
there is not the passion that I feel. If I could produce pieces like
that all the time I would be very happy but the house would be full of
stuff that only I like.

I guess we need to compromise. Creating pieces that we enjoy and then
pieces that others enjoy. Both are equally challenging but have
different satisfaction levels.

I think you'll find this with any form of artisanship or craftsmanship
as well as trades. I remember as an apprentice fitter and turner, being
told by a very old tradesman that it is important to make sure that your
work looks good as well as doing the job it was designed for. That
attitude seems to be lacking somewhat now as can be seen by the huge
amount of commercial stuff being produced by woodturners. I accept that
they need to make money, but a lot of the stuff looks so similar that
you can hardly tell the difference.

Sorry for the long rave, but it's my humble opinion that we need to
remain true to ourselves as well as our art. Don't stop making
commercial pieces, but try to put some of yourself into them.

Paul.

When I began to get seriously interested in woodturning (over 3 years ago),
I made up my mind, early on, that I was going to get a decent starter lathe,
buy some good quality tools, read a lot and learn how to do it properly.

I had seen some very feeble attempts by others at wood turning. These
efforts usually manifested themselves in objects that looked a lot like tire
knockers, ashtrays, etc. This type of woodturning was not for me.

Everyone has seen these things. We have all seen guys who starts with a
piece of wood in the lathe, but doesn't decide what it's going to be until
he is almost finished. Then he only has to decide what it looks most like.
No plan. No purpose. Just making shavings.

Well, it's over three years later and I don't do tire knocker or ashtrays.
I have turned a few decent paperweights, boxes and bowls. I've come a long
way (in my humble opinion), but I still have a long, long way to go before
my skills are anywhere near respectable.

That's what I like about woodturning, the more you learn, the more you find
you don't know. But, it's a fascinating hobby that I would heartily
recommend to anyone.

Barry


"Arch" wrote in message
...
This is a sort of follow up to Owen Lowe's excellent thread about our
history and whether I'm right or wrong, please add your thoughts.

Woodturning is a great and growing hobby and/or small business that many
seem to consider a second rate art form. Why? Probably the percentage
of our 'good enough' work to that highly acclaimed by a discriminating
public is the same as that for most other art/crafts. There are an awful
lot of happy hobby painters who are failed artists.

Are we too inbred? Isn't the great majority of our art work done to
please our peers? Are our peers discriminating critics or just an
ordinary support group? A true critique with no dissembling praise of a
picayune turning nowadays is hard to find. Are the really successful
artists in other mediums nice guys like our leaders who share their
knowledge and works and involve themselves with any and every level of
woodturning? Are our organizations, net forums, websites, magazines,
instant galleries and symposiums mostly geared toward hobbyists who
dabble in the difficult professions of good craft and fine art?

For me this state of affairs is fine and entirely satisfactory, but then
perhaps I shouldn't deplore the current state of the public's acceptance
of turned wood. I wonder if the efforts we make and objects we turn to
please each other and the objects that hold their own with other media
might not be mutually exclusive.

Just a thought. What's your take?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Sorry Arch.

I couldn't care less what my "peers" think, and I certainly doubt they
care what I think. Altogether too many "clubs", be they orchid
societies or woodturning organizations, are merely mutual admiration
societies and venues for (often only nominal) "experts" to stroke their
ego.

I spend an inordinate amount of time picking through available wood
(either in the lumber yard or in the wild) to find a stick that speaks
to me. In using that special piece I attempt to avoid "murder in the
woodshop". Only I know if I succed. And even if I do "It doesn't mean
**** to a tree" (Jefferson Airplane, 1969)

I know a lot of us turn so we will not get critiqued to severe by our
fellow turners and others don't give a flip. My sister owns a shop
which sells my bowls in East Glacier, Montana and she asked me to watch
customers when they handled my bowls as they shopped. They chose the
heaver bowls, I guess they thought they were getting more for their
money or they liked the way the bowls looked and felt. I had been
thinking thin was in, but the customers wanted thicker. Oh Well, lesson
learned. Sometimes we should listen to the people that buy rather than
the experts when it comes to design. Just my 2 cents....
Glenn Hodges
Nashville, GA

Glenn wrote:
I know a lot of us turn so we will not get critiqued to severe by our
fellow turners and others don't give a flip. My sister owns a shop
which sells my bowls in East Glacier, Montana and she asked me to watch
customers when they handled my bowls as they shopped. They chose the
heaver bowls, I guess they thought they were getting more for their
money or they liked the way the bowls looked and felt. I had been
thinking thin was in, but the customers wanted thicker. Oh Well, lesson
learned. Sometimes we should listen to the people that buy rather than
the experts when it comes to design. Just my 2 cents....

I tend to agree with you Glenn. Sometimes I'll do a thin bowl,
especially if it's a small natural edge piece, but for a 'working bowl'
like a 12" or 13" salad bowl it seems like folks want something that'll
take some handling. I usually make the walls about a half inch to 5/8"
thick and it gives a good heft to the bowl w/o making it too heavy...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska