I am having catches and gouges one after the other trying to back
hollow end grain with a spindle gouge.The tool just bounces all over
the place. Any tricks and techniques you can share would be great. How
high should the tool rest be for example. I am trying to make endgrain
boxes.

Thanks for your help!

When you say 'back hollowing' what do you mean? If you are talking
about the upside down, Raffin method, you need to use a gouge with some
meat on it and you need to be firm with it. This is a technique which
is easy to learn if somebody who knows how to do it will show you how.
I don't think videos hold a candle to a hands-on session.

But, if you must, try with a 1/2" bowl gouge and see if that works better.

Bill

Jay wrote:
I am having catches and gouges one after the other trying to back
hollow end grain with a spindle gouge.The tool just bounces all over
the place. Any tricks and techniques you can share would be great. How
high should the tool rest be for example. I am trying to make endgrain
boxes.

Thanks for your help!

Jay wrote:

Just so you know you are not being ignored... :-)

I think turners go to bed early BTW...

I am having catches and gouges one after the other trying to back
hollow end grain with a spindle gouge.The tool just bounces all over
the place. Any tricks and techniques you can share would be great. How
high should the tool rest be for example. I am trying to make endgrain
boxes.
=20
Thanks for your help!

Checked books by Irons, and Darlow in my collection. Nothing about your=20
problem.

Are you turning dry or wet wood? I think that they would use different=20
techniques.

I assume you have seen Bill's answer.



--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

When back hollowing, use a shallow gouge with a fingernail grind. You
*will* be rubbing the heel (but obviously not the bevel), you want the
wood to be pushing into the edge, not down onto the edge. You will
also be rubbing the tool shaft against the near edge of the opening.

The edge cuts around 45 degrees right of the top (about 1-2 o'clock).

The shaft should contact the opposite edge and the toolrest, so set
the toolrest height about at the centerline. The only purpose of the
toolrest is to keep the tool from rotating down - the contact against
the wood (heel and shaft) does most of the work. The angle of your
bevel will determine where the toolrest ends up.

To start the cut, put the tool on the toolrest, flute down. Contact
the tool shaft against the left side of the wood (so it's wedged
between the toolrest and the wood). Contact the heel next, around
11-12 o'clock, then push the tool in (the heel will move around to
12-1 o'clock) until the edge contacts the wood on the right side.

Or something like that. It's easier to do than describe.

If you want to see end grain cutting look at the following links

56k modem
http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/me...ng%20Tools.wmv

256k modem
http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/me...20Tools256.swf

or you can see the tools working on the web site below
--
www.woodcut-tools.com

All the best,
from Ken @ the Woodcut Sales team

"Jay" wrote in message
om...
I am having catches and gouges one after the other trying to back
hollow end grain with a spindle gouge.The tool just bounces all over
the place. Any tricks and techniques you can share would be great. How
high should the tool rest be for example. I am trying to make endgrain
boxes.

Thanks for your help!

Woodcut tools 2000 Ltd sales wrote:
If you want to see end grain cutting look at the following links

56k modem
http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/me...ng%20Tools.wmv

256k modem
http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/me...20Tools256.swf

That's nice -- which tool again?

A link to the exact tool demonstrated would have been nice. The video is
too quick and does not really show "which tool".

You probably make great tools -- just don't switch to a career in
cinematography. LOL

Nice shavings.


or you can see the tools working on the web site below


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

Jay, since you are making end grain boxes, I'll assume with the others
that the back hollowing you refer to is the gouging out cut to right of
center. It's fast, swanky and fine to learn how to do, but in my hands
the depth is limited and it's no faster than an easier similar cut to
the left with the gouge's flute at about 10 O'Clock.

Just don't hesitate or timid making either of these cuts, be firm &
deliberate.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch:

Your admonition to be "firm & deliberate" is right on.

We have a chapter mentoring program and I taught the technique to
another member of our group who is a somewhat experienced turner. He was
learning with one of my gouges (not one of his was ground reasonably,
imho) and was worried about breaking it. I told him not to worry. When
he left my house, he knew how to do it!

Several months later I watched him turn something end grain and he was
not using the technique. The firmness required to do it just went
against his grain, I guess. He is one of those who uses a dead center as
a drive center for spindle work so any catch or even any firm cut just
causes the blank to stop turning. He's way bigger than I am but way
timid when turning.

Bill

Arch wrote:
Jay, since you are making end grain boxes, I'll assume with the others
that the back hollowing you refer to is the gouging out cut to right of
center. It's fast, swanky and fine to learn how to do, but in my hands
the depth is limited and it's no faster than an easier similar cut to
the left with the gouge's flute at about 10 O'Clock.

Just don't hesitate or timid making either of these cuts, be firm &
deliberate.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Bill Rubenstein wrote:

Bill -- see below...

Arch:

Your admonition to be "firm & deliberate" is right on.

We have a chapter mentoring program and I taught the technique to
another member of our group who is a somewhat experienced turner. He was
learning with one of my gouges (not one of his was ground reasonably,
imho) and was worried about breaking it.

What grind would that be? -- if I may be so bold to ask. I have
reground all my other chisels based on info here, and a Darlow book --
so what the heck. Worst I can do is not like it and change it back. LOL

Willing to learn...

And I presume you could be referring to roughing gouges and scrapers
both maybe - all I have for now...


I told him not to worry. When
he left my house, he knew how to do it!

Several months later I watched him turn something end grain and he was
not using the technique. The firmness required to do it just went
against his grain, I guess. He is one of those who uses a dead center as
a drive center for spindle work so any catch or even any firm cut just
causes the blank to stop turning. He's way bigger than I am but way
timid when turning.


Aren't we all guilty of recidivism at one time or another? :-)

Bill

Arch wrote:

Jay, since you are making end grain boxes, I'll assume with the others
that the back hollowing you refer to is the gouging out cut to right of
center. It's fast, swanky and fine to learn how to do, but in my hands
the depth is limited and it's no faster than an easier similar cut to
the left with the gouge's flute at about 10 O'Clock.

Just don't hesitate or timid making either of these cuts, be firm &
deliberate.

I find the same issue with the skew - especially the big 'uns. If you
lose confidence - you better have another piece of wood handy. Or be
handy with wood filler. :-)

SWMBO was doing some intarsia last night. She had the same issue with
the spokeshaves and the drum sanders on the drill press. Lack of
firmness -- chatter = stuff don't fit no more.

So when I turn my first bowl (did I mention I'm getting tired of doing
spindles? :-) )I will remember your advice.




Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

The tool is the Pro-forme and is on our web site below.
The full video is available on CD ROM for free or DVD at a minimal cost.

I am trying to avoid being too commercial. But the point is that a gouge was
never designed for end grain hollowing particularly deep hollowing. If you
want a safe clean cut then use a proper hollowing tool.

I have been turning wood since 1973 professionally for 16yrs and tool making
for 20yrs so I am speaking from experience. The purpose of a hollowing tool
is to use a blade and slice the wood at the correct cutting angle, common to
all woodcutting tools.

My experience with shallow fluted gouges is that they are limited in the
time in which the tool can present itself to the wood at the correct cutting
angle. (particularly noticeable in the center of the form where end grain
fiber's are present. Whereas the hooked blade has a shape which can slice
those end grain fiber's through all planes in both end grain and
face )cross) grain situations. The hook was used long before gouges were
ever even thought of.

I am here to help where I can but I like other professionals get discouraged
by the put down attitudes of a few critics who often dominate this group. I
thrive on new ideas and enjoy innovation but submit to the basic laws of
nature eventually.
If we truly desire to learn and grow then we need to be teachable.
Thanks

Ken Port
--
www.woodcut-tools.com


"WillR" wrote in message
.. .
Woodcut tools 2000 Ltd sales wrote:
If you want to see end grain cutting look at the following links

56k modem

http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/me...ng%20Tools.wmv

256k modem

http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/me...20Tools256.swf

That's nice -- which tool again?

A link to the exact tool demonstrated would have been nice. The video is
too quick and does not really show "which tool".

You probably make great tools -- just don't switch to a career in
cinematography. LOL

Nice shavings.


or you can see the tools working on the web site below


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

Please read this with a grin on your face... :-) If you can take this
abuse nothing should bother you. RTFLMAO.


Woodcut tools 2000 Ltd sales wrote:
The tool is the Pro-forme and is on our web site below.
The full video is available on CD ROM for free or DVD at a minimal cost.

Again - would appreciate the link. Make it easy. WHICH TOOL?


I am trying to avoid being too commercial.

Be my guest. Point me at the tools. Or go to my site and email me
personally. Since I asked and have the same issue as the other guy I
will not be the least bit offended. If you do be commercial get it
right. You might make a sale. And that would make any abuse worthwhile
-- right? Well almost any. :-))

I like to sell my stuff too - at least I won't be offended. ...Unless
you won't tell me exactly which tools you were using and why it was
effective. g

But the point is that a gouge was
never designed for end grain hollowing particularly deep hollowing. If you
want a safe clean cut then use a proper hollowing tool.

OK great! Link? which tool (tools)


I have been turning wood since 1973 professionally for 16yrs and tool making
for 20yrs so I am speaking from experience. The purpose of a hollowing tool
is to use a blade and slice the wood at the correct cutting angle, common to
all woodcutting tools.

I can see that. Link?

My experience with shallow fluted gouges is that they are limited in the
time in which the tool can present itself to the wood at the correct cutting
angle. (particularly noticeable in the center of the form where end grain
fiber's are present. Whereas the hooked blade has a shape which can slice
those end grain fiber's through all planes in both end grain and
face )cross) grain situations. The hook was used long before gouges were
ever even thought of.


I am here to help where I can but I like other professionals get discouraged
by the put down attitudes of a few critics who often dominate this group.

I thrive on new ideas and enjoy innovation but submit to the basic laws of
nature eventually.

Link? I personally don't give **** who complains. You might. I don't.

If we truly desire to learn and grow then we need to be teachable.

Love to learn -- what in the ---- is the exact tool.

And if you make a video make ---- sure I can tell which one you are
demonstrating. :-) I might buy it -- if I can afford it.

Thanks

Thank you too. LOL


Hope you do have thick skin. You need it in sales. :-) (or on usenet)

Hint: make your posts shorter and answer the question And fix your video
so I don't even need to ask. Even point me at the right link on your
page where these tools are grouped.

I am re-learning everything after many years away from the craft. Since
I am re-learning clearly I am in the market for tools -- and am
vulnerable to a good sales pitch where I can learn what I need -- and if
I can afford the product.

Suspect others here are in the same boat.

Suspect others here will be offended. oh well can't win em all!

Sorry If I am hard on you - but I really am interested and don't even
know what I am looking at on your site. And while you guys are handsome
and all that and have wonderful accents your video doesn't help me.
Maybe an experienced turner would find them useful - but I suspect not.
I suspect that a good write-up and good still pictures would be far more
useful to a person like me -- i.e. not that knowledgeable and puppy dog
enthusiastic. LOL

No idea what would help the original poster.

Maybe a newbie isn't your market. Don't be afraid to say so if that is
the case. Again -- at least _I_ won't be offended.

Feel free to email me if you can still handle it. :-) I do need a hook
and ring someday... and not where my wife says either...

Hoping you have a sense of humour and/or a thick skin...

Ken Port


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

Ok...

WillR wrote:

snip...
What grind would that be? -- if I may be so bold to ask. I have
reground all my other chisels based on info here, and a Darlow book --
so what the heck. Worst I can do is not like it and change it back. LOL

Willing to learn...

And I presume you could be referring to roughing gouges and scrapers
both maybe - all I have for now...


....

Now, some people think that I'm all wrong but...

I back hollowed with a Taylor HS7 1/2" spindle gouge -- that is what
they call it. A number of people would call it a bowl gouge because the
flute is pretty deep for a spindle gouge. The reason for the past tense
-- this is one of the first tools I bought and it has finally gotten too
short to grind.

Then, to compound the 'error' -- I grind it with a Oneway vari-grind jig
set somewhere near its mid range. It comes out looking much like a
steep Ellsworth grind. There are advantages and disadvantages in
grinding it this way -- aren't there always? The advantage is that
there is that there seems to be a lot more meat near the cutting edge,
hence less vibration and a better cut. The disadvantage is that if you
use the tool for cutting beads (I don't usually, I use a 3/8 beading and
parting tool) you need to swing the handle a lot farther to keep the
bevel rubbing. That isn't all bad, just different.

I will say that I also grind a 3/8" spindle gouge that way. Here the
improvement in vibration is major.

Scrapers are such are a special issue and I can't see as if there are
too many ways to do these. Nor are there too many ways to screw them
up. BTW, if you can't get a good burr on a scraper to cut with, turn it
over, adjust the angle of your grinders tool rest and grind it upside down.

Also, my fine wheel is 80 grit (a blue one from Oneway) and my rough
wheel is a cheap blue 36 grit. Since the Oneway jig is usually set up
on the 80 and I don't want to move it, I grind the scrapers on the 36.
They work just fine, though.

Bill

Bill, your post gives me the courage (fortiter, not the Dan Rather kind)
to disagree with many superior and/or professional turners, but I'm
often wrong.

Many accomplished turners do use a dead tailcenter that by slipping can
prevent a catch. Maybe some do _not use it, but they teach or suggest it
to others.

Whatever, I find this way to prevent catches a useless pain. IMO, its
promoted more for its novelty and sends the wrong message re learning
techniques that make for good woodturning and prevent catches. Of course
I get catches and big ones too, but they would have been prevented
better by good turning than by a spinning dead center. For me, a few
catches are much less troubling than continually having to tighten the
tailstock or more often giving up to hunt for my spur center.

There are times when a reasonable cut using proper technique would make
a dead center spin. Maybe a dead center would have prevented a catch
that was never there.

Tell me why I'm wrong again? I'm still teachable. TIA


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"WillR" wrote in message
...
Please read this with a grin on your face... :-) If you can take this
abuse nothing should bother you. RTFLMAO.


Woodcut tools 2000 Ltd sales wrote:
The tool is the Pro-forme and is on our web site below.
The full video is available on CD ROM for free or DVD at a minimal cost.

Again - would appreciate the link. Make it easy. WHICH TOOL?


Ken's a bit strange in his approach to prospective customers at times. He
likely presumed you knew that Pro-forme was the name of the tool and were
tugging his trouser cuff.
http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/se...a0f 67c19b742

His tool is a version of a hook/ring tool with a moveable chip limiter.
Principle is the same as any of the ilk - it's a gouge at right angles, more
or less, to the tool shaft. It allows you to cut as you would with a gouge
across the end grain. Pricey, takes some learning, but works a treat when
you see it in operation.

Arch:

As is often the case -- I find myself agreeing with you. What can I say?

Bill

Arch wrote:
Bill, your post gives me the courage (fortiter, not the Dan Rather kind)
to disagree with many superior and/or professional turners, but I'm
often wrong.

Many accomplished turners do use a dead tailcenter that by slipping can
prevent a catch. Maybe some do _not use it, but they teach or suggest it
to others.

Whatever, I find this way to prevent catches a useless pain. IMO, its
promoted more for its novelty and sends the wrong message re learning
techniques that make for good woodturning and prevent catches. Of course
I get catches and big ones too, but they would have been prevented
better by good turning than by a spinning dead center. For me, a few
catches are much less troubling than continually having to tighten the
tailstock or more often giving up to hunt for my spur center.

There are times when a reasonable cut using proper technique would make
a dead center spin. Maybe a dead center would have prevented a catch
that was never there.

Tell me why I'm wrong again? I'm still teachable. TIA


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

George wrote:
"WillR" wrote in message
...

Please read this with a grin on your face... :-) If you can take this
abuse nothing should bother you. RTFLMAO.


Woodcut tools 2000 Ltd sales wrote:

The tool is the Pro-forme and is on our web site below.
The full video is available on CD ROM for free or DVD at a minimal cost.

Again - would appreciate the link. Make it easy. WHICH TOOL?



Ken's a bit strange in his approach to prospective customers at times.

Since I know almost nothing these days it was a bad assumption. But he
is forgiven. LOL

His stuff lookes real good.


If someone makes good stuff they can be as strange as they like. LOL


He
likely presumed you knew that Pro-forme was the name of the tool and were
tugging his trouser cuff.
http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/se...a0f 67c19b742

Didn't, wasn't and did not have a clue. Now I have a clue. :-)


His tool is a version of a hook/ring tool with a moveable chip limiter.
Principle is the same as any of the ilk - it's a gouge at right angles, more
or less, to the tool shaft. It allows you to cut as you would with a gouge
across the end grain. Pricey, takes some learning, but works a treat when
you see it in operation.

Thanks. Helps a lot.

Being a "techy" myself -- I get frustrated when someone doesn't
understand -- so I try not to "hold a grudge" when the tables are
reversed. Which happens more and more these days... :-)







--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

WillR wrote:
Please read this with a grin on your face... :-) If you can take this
abuse nothing should bother you. RTFLMAO.


Woodcut tools 2000 Ltd sales wrote:
The tool is the Pro-forme and is on our web site below.
The full video is available on CD ROM for free or DVD at a minimal cost.

Again - would appreciate the link. Make it easy. WHICH TOOL?

Try this: http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/section.php?xSec=2

....evin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska

Kevin Miller wrote:
WillR wrote:
=20
Please read this with a grin on your face... :-) If you can take this =

abuse nothing should bother you. RTFLMAO.


Woodcut tools 2000 Ltd sales wrote:

The tool is the Pro-forme and is on our web site below.
The full video is available on CD ROM for free or DVD at a minimal co=
st.


Again - would appreciate the link. Make it easy. WHICH TOOL?
=20
=20
Try this: http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/section.php?xSec=3D2
=20
...evin

The fellow emailed me yesterday.

Had a good look yesterday - like the tools. Now must keep SWMBO near=20
some cardiac care -- for when I purchase and the bill comes in.

Wish they were local - it would make things easier...

--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw