Recent threads here and on other forums about deciding the worth of our
turnings seem to raise more questions than answers. For me, interesting
enough to send me to my armchair to doze and wonder. If you permit, here
is some personal thoughts, no doubt plagiarized and long forgotten.

The worth of a turning can have two meanings; price and value. Price can
be determined by formula. It's variables a time, equipment, shop,
materials, learning, experience and all the costs of selling. A fair and
reasonable price can be established for a worthy _product made by a good
_workman.

Value is determined by what the buyer gets out and will pay for, not by
what the turner puts in. A turning's quality has nothing to do with how
expensive or novel it is or how hard it is to make.

I'm getting dangerously close to that worn out and forbidden subject of
'Art vs Craft'. Further, these musings may have been better put in Fine
Arts 101 or your local newspaper's arts column. Sorry if I've crossed
the line. Nothing is more tiresome than someone who believes he has had
an original thought and feels compelled to bray about it. Anyway, I'd
enjoy reading yours, whether you agree or not. Arch

Fortiter,

Arch

Great point! The value of an object is indeed not just the amount a person
will pay for it, but, also it is inclusive of any intrinsic significance
that may add perceived value.

For example, when I have a sale, I price my works based upon 2 or 3 factors.
First, I look at the item. Is it an object of beauty? An almost beautiful
object? Or is it ugly? If it is high on the beauty scale, the value goes
up. Beauty is a combination of form, the wood's figure and the other types
of markings - spalting, bullet holes, staining, etc.

The second significant value driver is the story behind the tree. If the
tree stood along main street in Your Town, USA and was planted by one of the
founding fathers, or if it was the tree that stood on an estate or if it was
felled in a particularly violent way, then the value goes up - the story is
important. If there is no story, then there is nothing that sets this
object apart! If I have a tree that has no story, then I have nothing to
assist in hiking the price other than the beauty of the object. So I try to
find wood that has significance.

The other things that can increase the value of the item - the rarity of the
wood - IE: American Elm - this species is going extinct and there are few
trees available that are large enough to produce a large item. Another is
the placement of the piece in the tree - "that piece was made from the
branch that fell through the courthouse window."

So, I say, the value is what you make it - you produce the item on your
lathe, but the tree that stood on that particular spot for the last 120
years is what you made it from - there has to be a story behind that tree!

Find the story (even if that story says "this artist has 3 pieces of his
work in such and such museum") and you will definitely find buyers - no
matter the price!

That's my two cents!

Ray









"Arch" wrote in message
...
Recent threads here and on other forums about deciding the worth of our
turnings seem to raise more questions than answers. For me, interesting
enough to send me to my armchair to doze and wonder. If you permit, here
is some personal thoughts, no doubt plagiarized and long forgotten.

The worth of a turning can have two meanings; price and value. Price can
be determined by formula. It's variables a time, equipment, shop,
materials, learning, experience and all the costs of selling. A fair and
reasonable price can be established for a worthy _product made by a good
_workman.

Value is determined by what the buyer gets out and will pay for, not by
what the turner puts in. A turning's quality has nothing to do with how
expensive or novel it is or how hard it is to make.

I'm getting dangerously close to that worn out and forbidden subject of
'Art vs Craft'. Further, these musings may have been better put in Fine
Arts 101 or your local newspaper's arts column. Sorry if I've crossed
the line. Nothing is more tiresome than someone who believes he has had
an original thought and feels compelled to bray about it. Anyway, I'd
enjoy reading yours, whether you agree or not. Arch

Fortiter,

Arch
This question brings up the whole topic of whether what we make has any
value at all. After all, as I told a lady who was complaining that my
salad bowls were too expensive, you can buy a serviceable facsimile at
the local Wal-Mart or whatever for three bucks in good plastic. What we
make is obtainable cheaper in mass produced form in various materials
including quick turned and poorly finished but adequate wood. What we
sell may be good or great craft, but I believe it is purchased for the
esthetic qualities of the wood itself coupled with the nuances of the
turner who produced it. Some of us at some times are able to produce
true art, whatever that is and I am not trying to open that can of worms
again. The price may depend on the time and material, but the sale
depends on the wants and needs of the purchaser. As a salad bowl, that
12 inch piece of ash may be worth about three bucks, as a nice piece of
wood that begs to be held and admired for the beauty of the wood and, I
hope, the turning, it may be worth $85 or more. Thanks for a chance to
ramble Arch.
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS, Canada
http://www.roundthewoods.com

Arch,

I would split the distinction as "cost to produce" vs "value". My rule of
thumb is that the price I can charge is based upon the value as perceived by
the customer/market. I determine this by looking at what other turners
charge for like items in my area. I also have a rule of thumb that it costs
me $30 per hour (including my pay) plus the cost of the wood to make
things. I generally don't turn items that don't fit this model unless I
want to turn them for fun.

For example, I used to turn Dick Sing-like ornaments, but I couldn't produce
them fast enough to make it worth my while. Instead, I've switched my
ornament design to something that is less demanding on my time.

On the other hand, my current fancy is off-center turning and vessels. I'll
spend as much time as I want on these right now because they are
particularly fun for me and I don't care about the cost.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
=======================================
"Arch" wrote in message
...
Recent threads here and on other forums about deciding the worth of our
turnings seem to raise more questions than answers. For me, interesting
enough to send me to my armchair to doze and wonder. If you permit, here
is some personal thoughts, no doubt plagiarized and long forgotten.

The worth of a turning can have two meanings; price and value. Price can
be determined by formula. It's variables a time, equipment, shop,
materials, learning, experience and all the costs of selling. A fair and
reasonable price can be established for a worthy _product made by a good
_workman.

Value is determined by what the buyer gets out and will pay for, not by
what the turner puts in. A turning's quality has nothing to do with how
expensive or novel it is or how hard it is to make.

I'm getting dangerously close to that worn out and forbidden subject of
'Art vs Craft'. Further, these musings may have been better put in Fine
Arts 101 or your local newspaper's arts column. Sorry if I've crossed
the line. Nothing is more tiresome than someone who believes he has had
an original thought and feels compelled to bray about it. Anyway, I'd
enjoy reading yours, whether you agree or not. Arch

Fortiter,

Arch

I read your post with interest. I think you touched on the key factors in
pricing our work but as the group COCIR (crusty old coot in resident) I was
expecting a little bit more.

When we set a selling price we consider the value to the customer. The
customer sets the final price and value, but there is still a value to the
turner. This is a non-monetary value. The questions that set the value are
is this your first piece, is it your best piece to date, did it come out
better than expected. Are you turning this piece to be sold or is it for
someone special.

Each piece of wood we turn is special. That is why we are turners. We grow
from each piece of wood we turn as each bowl grows from our efforts. I just
finished turning 2 candle sticks from wood used as decorations at a wedding.
I do not know the value the young couple will set on the candle sticks but
becouse of the honor of being asked to turn something the non-monetary value
to me as the turner is far greater than any price set on the candle sticks.

Henry

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Recent threads here and on other forums about deciding the worth of our
turnings seem to raise more questions than answers. For me, interesting
enough to send me to my armchair to doze and wonder. If you permit, here
is some personal thoughts, no doubt plagiarized and long forgotten.

The worth of a turning can have two meanings; price and value. Price can
be determined by formula. It's variables a time, equipment, shop,
materials, learning, experience and all the costs of selling. A fair and
reasonable price can be established for a worthy _product made by a good
_workman.

Value is determined by what the buyer gets out and will pay for, not by
what the turner puts in. A turning's quality has nothing to do with how
expensive or novel it is or how hard it is to make.

I'm getting dangerously close to that worn out and forbidden subject of
'Art vs Craft'. Further, these musings may have been better put in Fine
Arts 101 or your local newspaper's arts column. Sorry if I've crossed
the line. Nothing is more tiresome than someone who believes he has had
an original thought and feels compelled to bray about it. Anyway, I'd
enjoy reading yours, whether you agree or not. Arch

Fortiter,

Folks,

Part of the perceived value are tangible items such as business cards and
boxes and bags with your name on them.

A larger intangible value is that customers who purchase our work are
"buying" a piece of the "craftsperson/artist", so your "story" is a large
part of what cause them to open their wallets. In my case, the story is a
little bit of technical, but mostly what "inspires me to pursue my efforts.

I have had customers say to me at shows - "It was so nice to put a face to
the name of the work I bought at a gallery several years ago" and "... I
bought a piece of yours before you became 'someone'".

Customer comments have reinforced the image that educating my customers
about how and why I create my craft/art is the most important aspect of
discussions with them when they visit my booth.

George

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Recent threads here and on other forums about deciding the worth of our
turnings seem to raise more questions than answers. For me, interesting
enough to send me to my armchair to doze and wonder. If you permit, here
is some personal thoughts, no doubt plagiarized and long forgotten.

The worth of a turning can have two meanings; price and value. Price can
be determined by formula. It's variables a time, equipment, shop,
materials, learning, experience and all the costs of selling. A fair and
reasonable price can be established for a worthy _product made by a good
_workman.

Value is determined by what the buyer gets out and will pay for, not by
what the turner puts in. A turning's quality has nothing to do with how
expensive or novel it is or how hard it is to make.

I'm getting dangerously close to that worn out and forbidden subject of
'Art vs Craft'. Further, these musings may have been better put in Fine
Arts 101 or your local newspaper's arts column. Sorry if I've crossed
the line. Nothing is more tiresome than someone who believes he has had
an original thought and feels compelled to bray about it. Anyway, I'd
enjoy reading yours, whether you agree or not. Arch

Fortiter,

This is an interesting discussion. I am new to turning, but have a lot
of experience with pricing. The principles are always the same.

Setting price has nothing to do with the cost of an article or
service. It has everything to do with the value in the marketplace. If
a piece is for utility only, then contrasting it with other
substitutes can give an idea of market price. If it is more durable
than substitute X (and durability is important or a "good"), the price
will be higher than X's price. If it is less attractive than
substitute Y (and being attractive is a "good"), then the price will
be lower than Y's price. These examples are "all else being equal".

The same thinking applies to all the other attributes discussed like
beauty, value of handmade, uniqueness, etc.

Cost. Cost does have one important function at this point. After we
determine what the market price is, we all decide whether or not to
supply the article based on our cost.

So, what happens if you use cost (sometimes called Cost Plus Pricing)
to determine your price. Three cases: If your Cost Plus (CP) is below
the market, you leave money on the table. If CP is the same as market,
you are right by accident. If CP is higher than market, noone will buy
your products.

This is a simplistic explanation, but it is true and useful to
understand. I have explained this to marketing VPs and CEO who didn't
get it.

I hope that I didn't bore anyone. Being a turning newbie I thought
that I might be able to contribute for once.

John

The worth of a turning can have two meanings; price and value.
I'm not so sure. An item of extremely high worth may actually be priceless.

Price can
be determined by formula. It's variables a time, equipment, shop,
materials, learning, experience and all the costs of selling.
You forgot to add the turner's reputation. That can multiply the price, all
other things being equal.

Value is determined by what the buyer gets out and will pay for, not by
what the turner puts in. A turning's quality has nothing to do with how
expensive or novel it is or how hard it is to make.
The easy test for value is to keep changing your price and see what happens to
sales. You will soon find the optimal balance between price and quantity sold.

Nothing is more tiresome than someone who believes he has had
an original thought and feels compelled to bray about it. Anyway, I'd
enjoy reading yours, whether you agree or not. Arch
Not to me. Original thoughts are hard to come by. Many people go through their
entire lives without having one. If someone has an original thought I think they
have a right to brag about it.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:46:18 -0500 (EST), (Arch) wrote:


The worth of a turning can have two meanings; price and value. Price can
be determined by formula. It's variables a time, equipment, shop,
materials, learning, experience and all the costs of selling. A fair and
reasonable price can be established for a worthy _product made by a good
_workman.

Value is determined by what the buyer gets out and will pay for, not by
what the turner puts in. A turning's quality has nothing to do with how
expensive or novel it is or how hard it is to make.
I long ago gave up trying to price work by time & materials...Of course,
it is important to know what you are spending and how fast you are
working if you do repeatable items like stoppers and pens, but when you
begin dabbling in 'art' and one-of-a-kind stuff, the rules vary!

If I take a large, rare piece of expensive wood, work for a month on it,
and it comes out awkward & ugly...is it 'worth' $4000? Or if I take a
free piece from by back yard and in 3 hours end up with something
drop-dead gorgeous and elegant, should I sell it for $60?

A LOT depends on 'image' (surroundings and circumstances of the sale)
and literally, WHERE you are selling....the same piece may be looked at
differently at a local high school craft fair or in a decent
gallery...and one $200 piece surrounded by a bunch of $30 pieces may
seem awkward.

I am heading for the biggest show of the year this weekend, and I have 2
or 3 of the nicest things I have done...including the single most
expensive item I have ever priced! The wood was free, but it was 3 days
of HARD work, including 4-5 hours of sanding! (preceded by an hour of
delicate bandsawing to get it to a point I could even mount it on the
lathe!)
What was it? It was a 7" tall hollow vase made from the root of a Yew
bush (it was just a mass of roots and dirt when I started,,...you may
see it he
http://users.starpower.net/extree/wood/PB235564.JPG
and here is a larger piece (low & wide) from the same root...(twice the
size and 4 times the weight of the vase...but cheaper!)
http://users.starpower.net/extree/wood/PB235536.JPG
and me, holding one while the vase sits on the kind of root they came
from
http://users.starpower.net/extree/wood/PB235624.JPG
(these are pretty large files..slow on dial-up connection.)
(does anyone have an idea why I get the amazing purples in the part that
was way below ground?)

....anyway..I will see this weekend how they go over with a
discriminating audience! *grin*

Very nice work, Bill I can't speak for the rest of the group but I sure
would like to know If you got what you were expecting for the pieces.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:35:22 GMT, Ralph Fedorak
wrote:

Very nice work, Bill I can't speak for the rest of the group but I sure
would like to know If you got what you were expecting for the pieces.
thank you, Ralph! I appreciate the vote. It makes me nervous to post
those here where so many turners I respect hang out!..... I will post
something next week on how it went.
I have made 2 other 'major' pieces from Yew root, and they both sold so
fast it scared me, for $185 and $225...so I know that unusual pieces
WILL sell if they have the right audience. 10 years ago, I never
dreamed I'd be making pieces with holes and broken edges, but now I have
to force myself to do something with a simple, solid rim.

I was just thinking...one way I do price is to take several pieces that
I do feel I have a sane, fair price on, and ask myself how the NEW piece
stacks up...and then my wife and a couple of friends tell me to raise
the price by 20% *grin*. (One piece I had for 5-6 years and it just
would NOT sell...so every season I raised the price, starting at
$65....when it reached $110, it sold!...go figger!)

Hi Bill, Thanks for you thoughts and pics. You need not be nervous
about showing your work. The pieces are a pleasure to view. The biped
holder perhaps a little less so! I know the show will be a success
for you. Best, Arch

Fortiter,

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:39:57 -0500 (EST), (Arch) wrote:

Hi Bill, Thanks for you thoughts and pics. You need not be nervous
about showing your work. The pieces are a pleasure to view. The biped
holder perhaps a little less so! I know the show will be a success
for you. Best, Arch

Fortiter,

ah, Arch...that biped display holder has seen better days! It wishes it
had learned about wood at 20, rather than 50! But like those Bristlecone
Pines, it just keeps hanging on! Thanks......

"Bill Day" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:46:18 -0500 (EST), (Arch) wrote:

snip
(does anyone have an idea why I get the amazing purples in the part that
was way below ground?)

I'd suspect minerals in the soil.

- Ray

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:39:57 -0500 (EST), (Arch) wrote:

Hi Bill, Thanks for you thoughts and pics. You need not be nervous
about showing your work. The pieces are a pleasure to view. The biped
holder perhaps a little less so! I know the show will be a success
for you. Best, Arch

Fortiter,

well, I learned something today, the first day of that 3 day show. The
'cheaper' piece ,
http://users.starpower.net/extree/wood/PB235536.JPG
sold within an hour and a half at $245...ane the little piece at the
bottom right, which was just a flat section I had bandsawed off in the
mounting process and then polished, brought $20 soon after!..The woman
who got it said she was going to pierce the edges with a Dremel and add
thread or fiber windings and wear it as a necklace.

The only point of this is to note that there is a market for almost ANY
pretty piece of wood, and that it is terribly hard to answer Arch's
original question easily...since it took me 4-5 hours of hard work to
make that bowl, and the little flat slices took maybe 10-15 minutes
each..You do the math..*wry smile*.......I did learn long ago that
'perceived value' is the important thing....if a shiny piece of wood is
going to be used as jewelry by a woman, it is worth more than the same
thing made into a refrigerator magnet......

In the same way, turned items are *usually* of greater 'perceived value'
as art objects than as candy dishes...especially if they have
natural/rough edges or holes in the sides! Later in the day today, I
finally sold a few 'useful' bowls with solid edges......but I am aware I
always need to have some of both types available, as some people WANT
functional items and/or have a limited budget.

Maybe in a few more years, I'll write a treatise on pricing! (I HATE
pricing! I know now why many turners keep everything or just give stuff
away as gifts..
.....so, we shall see how it all goes for two more days.....

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:22:01 -0500, Bill Day
wrote:

well, I learned something today, the first day of that 3 day show. The
'cheaper' piece ,
http://users.starpower.net/extree/wood/PB235536.JPG
sold within an hour and a half at $245...ane the little piece at the
bottom right, which was just a flat section I had bandsawed off in the
mounting process and then polished, brought $20 soon after!..The woman
who got it said she was going to pierce the edges with a Dremel and add
thread or fiber windings and wear it as a necklace.

The only point of this is to note that there is a market for almost ANY
pretty piece of wood, and that it is terribly hard to answer Arch's
original question easily...since it took me 4-5 hours of hard work to
make that bowl, and the little flat slices took maybe 10-15 minutes
each..You do the math..*wry smile*.......I did learn long ago that
'perceived value' is the important thing....if a shiny piece of wood is
going to be used as jewelry by a woman, it is worth more than the same
thing made into a refrigerator magnet......

In the same way, turned items are *usually* of greater 'perceived value'
as art objects than as candy dishes...especially if they have
natural/rough edges or holes in the sides! Later in the day today, I
finally sold a few 'useful' bowls with solid edges......but I am aware I
always need to have some of both types available, as some people WANT
functional items and/or have a limited budget.

Maybe in a few more years, I'll write a treatise on pricing! (I HATE
pricing! I know now why many turners keep everything or just give stuff
away as gifts..
....so, we shall see how it all goes for two more days.....

I have a few more thoughts on value, following one of the best shows I
have ever had......thus, I am appending them to this earlier post so
they can all be read as one unit for those who may have missed the
first.

We all know there are several things which can bring 'value' to a
turning..
usefulness: lidded boxes, candy dishes,goblets, salad bowls...etc..

aesthetics: shape, color, grain, finish, size (large OR small)..etc.. A
subset of this is 'features' like worm holes , bark, voids, limbs, etc.
Somewhere in the list is things that are 'added', like dying, painting,
inlay, bleaching..etc.

name recognition: work by a 'known' artist, or from a famous wood or
tree (The Wye Oak in Maryland was recently cut up for projects). Pink
Ivory 'could' be considered here, as I HAVE sold some simply because of
the appeal of owning something considered to be rare.

personal interest: a tree they know, a wood from their home or friends
home or town...etc.

now, let me add also...the ARTISTS own input and interest. That is, the
customers realization that the maker cared and thought and struggled to
create the item.....
These last 3 categories I sort of summarize with the idea that people
like to buy a *story*, not just a turning.
What I have found recently is that the more I talk about wood and
it's folklore and history and properties, the more I sell it. (If, of
course, it is a decent item fairly priced). .......Sure...you have to
learn when to be quiet and let the folks just look, but sitting in a
corner reading a book and having no 'information' beyond a common name
of the wood is courting disaster, unless you have really amazing pieces
and/or prices. (Yes, pieces sell in galleries without the artist there
to explain it all, but usually only the best pieces...and I suspect that
IF one was able to be there to add the 'story' dimension, sales would be
even better)
It is possible to provide some printed information with wooden
items (beyond noting the wood type), but I am SURE that several of my
sales this past weekend were concluded because I gave the potential
customer a 'feel' for the wood over & above the standard aesthetics and
usefulness values. (The last sale of the day was a pretty , but simple
bowl of Chechem--'Metopium browneii', also known as "Black Poisonwood",
from the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico...Explaining why this wood was only
fairly recently available because of the nasty sap in the bark made it
much more interesting than just a bowl of pretty wood.)
I try to learn ALL the genus/species names of the wood and know where
it comes from and what its characteristics are, and provide them IF the
customer seems to care..(not all do! *wry grin*)

I hope this long-winded analysis doesn't sound like I'm preaching, or
that I think you all don't already realize much of this, whether you
have written it out or not!...I just wanted to put these thoughts in one
place where they might stimulate more musings like Arch's and maybe
serve to focus more ideas on one of the most sticky issues in
crafts....value.