I've heard about the golden mean and fair curves and I can turn a bowl
with a reasonable approach to them. I can proceed thru twenty six grits
of sand-
paper, then buff from tripoli to carnauba by way of white diamond. I've
got wax and oil, lacquer and varnish, detergent and shoe polish. I can
draw overlapping leaves on my turnings and dremel them to a
fare-the-well. Then why are Andi's bowls basking in the Del Mano while
it's iffy if mine will grace the booth between the 4-H pigs and the
Future Farmer's goats at the Martin County Fair? It appears that the
only thing holding me back from greatness must be color, so I surfed the
net to learn all about Andi's colors of Fall, as well as the rest of the
year. I'm still barred from the Del Mano, but like any lout with a tiny
bit of shallow knowledge, I am compelled to force it on a long suffering
rcw.
So if all artists, photographers, physicists and anyone else who knows
anything at all about color will please leave, I'll try to write a
little primer & expose' for the rest of us. Like it or not, colored
turnings are here, so we better get with the program.
***********************************************
Color has to do with the wavelength and frequency of light. The colors
of a bowl will be perceived according to which
wave lengths the bowl absorbs; ie. you don't see the colors of the
absorbed waves.The visible wavelengths (colors) make up a spectrum
ranging from red to violet (Roy G. Biv) and can be thought of as a clock
face with red at 12, yellow at 4, and blue at 8. These are the pure or
primary colors, and all the rest are mixtures of them. The so-called
secondary colors are mixes of primaries. They are orange (red & yellow)
at 2, green (yellow & blue) at 6, and violet (blue & red) at 10. The
tertiary colors are mixes of a primary and a secondary color and are
named for the mix: red-orange at 1, yellow-orange at 3, yellow-green at
5, green-blue at 7, blue violet at 9 and red-violet at 11. Then there's
white, made up of all colors and black with none. That's all you need to
know about colors, so you should soon be in the Del Mano. But wait!
there's more. If you order today, you also get shades (a color + black),
tints (a color + white) and intensity (dull or bright). A bright color
contains relatively little gray, while dull colors contain relatively
more gray, compared to its pure component. We will also include hues and
tones if you order now. A hue is the resultant color that you see,
whether pure or a mix. Only women know the names for tones; names such
as watermelon, lemonade, etc. Tone depends upon what is mixed with a
pure color. A pure color (R,Y,G) has no tone. Everything else has some
tone depending on what's mixed up with the pure. (Sociologists and
Anthropologists should have left also.) Anyway, this important
knowledge about color that I am braying 'ex cathedra' should certainly
make you a great wood artist. _Except that I forgot to mention that
the colors those miserable critics appreciate vary with the spaces and
colors surrounding our masterpieces. Also different kinds of sunlight,
light bulbs and retinas of the beholders change viewer's perceptions .
We can't win, so let's hear it for pure unadulterated wood grain and
pretend not to care about color. That is, if anybody's still awake.
Arch

Fortiter,

Does any one know the exact color of the Jet 1642? What are the RGB
numbers? I want to paint some accessories to match. Thanks.

Jim Andersen
Lancaster, WI

I tried to post a light-hearted elementary primer about color as I have
tried to do previously about three phase electric power, cutting angles,
musings of a COC etc. Too often what I think and what I write are not
the same. Andi is gracious and forgiving, but I want to make it clear
that I admire her talent for beautiful art even more than her expert
turning ability. That goes for all the many others of you who make
lovely colored wood art. Arch

Fortiter,

Check out the textbooks used by foundations programs (freshman and
sophomore) in art and design schools. Look for names like Munsel and Faber.


"Arch" wrote in message
...
I've heard about the golden mean and fair curves and I can turn a bowl
with a reasonable approach to them. I can proceed thru twenty six grits
of sand-
paper, then buff from tripoli to carnauba by way of white diamond. I've
got wax and oil, lacquer and varnish, detergent and shoe polish. I can
draw overlapping leaves on my turnings and dremel them to a
fare-the-well. Then why are Andi's bowls basking in the Del Mano while
it's iffy if mine will grace the booth between the 4-H pigs and the
Future Farmer's goats at the Martin County Fair? It appears that the
only thing holding me back from greatness must be color, so I surfed the
net to learn all about Andi's colors of Fall, as well as the rest of the
year. I'm still barred from the Del Mano, but like any lout with a tiny
bit of shallow knowledge, I am compelled to force it on a long suffering
rcw.
So if all artists, photographers, physicists and anyone else who knows
anything at all about color will please leave, I'll try to write a
little primer & expose' for the rest of us. Like it or not, colored
turnings are here, so we better get with the program.
***********************************************
Color has to do with the wavelength and frequency of light. The colors
of a bowl will be perceived according to which
wave lengths the bowl absorbs; ie. you don't see the colors of the
absorbed waves.The visible wavelengths (colors) make up a spectrum
ranging from red to violet (Roy G. Biv) and can be thought of as a clock
face with red at 12, yellow at 4, and blue at 8. These are the pure or
primary colors, and all the rest are mixtures of them. The so-called
secondary colors are mixes of primaries. They are orange (red & yellow)
at 2, green (yellow & blue) at 6, and violet (blue & red) at 10. The
tertiary colors are mixes of a primary and a secondary color and are
named for the mix: red-orange at 1, yellow-orange at 3, yellow-green at
5, green-blue at 7, blue violet at 9 and red-violet at 11. Then there's
white, made up of all colors and black with none. That's all you need to
know about colors, so you should soon be in the Del Mano. But wait!
there's more. If you order today, you also get shades (a color + black),
tints (a color + white) and intensity (dull or bright). A bright color
contains relatively little gray, while dull colors contain relatively
more gray, compared to its pure component. We will also include hues and
tones if you order now. A hue is the resultant color that you see,
whether pure or a mix. Only women know the names for tones; names such
as watermelon, lemonade, etc. Tone depends upon what is mixed with a
pure color. A pure color (R,Y,G) has no tone. Everything else has some
tone depending on what's mixed up with the pure. (Sociologists and
Anthropologists should have left also.) Anyway, this important
knowledge about color that I am braying 'ex cathedra' should certainly
make you a great wood artist. _Except that I forgot to mention that
the colors those miserable critics appreciate vary with the spaces and
colors surrounding our masterpieces. Also different kinds of sunlight,
light bulbs and retinas of the beholders change viewer's perceptions .
We can't win, so let's hear it for pure unadulterated wood grain and
pretend not to care about color. That is, if anybody's still awake.
Arch

Fortiter,

Hello Arch,

I took it in the intended spirit, I am a sinner in the use of texturing and
coloring. My shame will be everlasting. I am sure that I have committed a
mortal sin by covering up something that God has created. But.... I think
that God had a hand in most of the dyes that I use too.

No Rules for me, but I am naturally unruly by choice.

Please keep posting Arch,
Yours are some of my favorites!!!!

Dave

David Peebles
Lyons, Ohio
Revolutions Woodturning
www.bowlturner.com

"Arch" wrote in message
...
I tried to post a light-hearted elementary primer about color as I have
tried to do previously about three phase electric power, cutting angles,
musings of a COC etc. Too often what I think and what I write are not
the same. Andi is gracious and forgiving, but I want to make it clear
that I admire her talent for beautiful art even more than her expert
turning ability. That goes for all the many others of you who make
lovely colored wood art. Arch

Fortiter,

Hey, Arch -

I didn't take offense to your primer. I do think it's interesting to
see how color is being used now in woodturning. When used
effectively, coloring the wood can highlight a beautiful grain rather
than detract from it. For example, figured maple is an excellent wood
that takes color well, and color can showcase some of the subtle grain
patterns that might otherwise be missed in the natural wood.

As with any surface enhancement technique in woodturning, the use of
color needs to be part of the entire composition of a piece. If a
woodturning is ugly prior to the application of color, it will still
be ugly after the color is added (and maybe more obviously so).

Understanding how colors work together or against each other is an
important tool, also. There are many different resource books in the
art section of every bookstore or library that spell out what color
combinations work well together. Observers of nature may have already
internalized this information, but others may need a little help. For
those of you that would prefer to not waste your time reading about
color theory, take a close look at plants, insects, reptiles, geology,
etc. What pleases your eye from nature will work well in wood art.

And, Arch - I'm glad to know you admire my woodturnings . . .

Andi
http://www.AndiWolfe.com

(Arch) wrote in message ...
I tried to post a light-hearted elementary primer about color as I have
tried to do previously about three phase electric power, cutting angles,
musings of a COC etc. Too often what I think and what I write are not
the same. Andi is gracious and forgiving, but I want to make it clear
that I admire her talent for beautiful art even more than her expert
turning ability. That goes for all the many others of you who make
lovely colored wood art. Arch

Fortiter,

Arch wrote: "I tried to post a light-hearted elementary primer about
color as I have tried to do previously about three phase electric power,
cutting angles, musings of a COC etc." .....snip......
******************************
And you did exactly that, Arch. No matter how something is written,
everyone reads the words as their own mind "hears" them. I thought you
did just fine and nothing indicated to me that you were being critical;
just your usual 'musing self! : )

To Ray I'd like to just say that it's a "fad". Just like in all the
arts (clothing, home products, etc), the collectors, gallery owners and
general public keep looking for "something new". I love most of the
dyed, burned and/or carved work; some is over done for my taste. I
like the work where you can see the grain and still know it's wood; some
make me ask "why waste the wood, take a piece of pottery and paint it"!

There is a great many people who want to buy pure wood (no enhancements)
and equal number of people who want "something new". I think gallerys
have to keep offering new or their clientele will go somewhere else
searching for the new piece.

The paint-it trend doesn't seem to affect the interest in fine pieces
that are pure wood; they still make all of us go "oohh"!
Check out Wally Dickerman's work for example; absolutely beautiful and
not a drop of paint!

Well, back to the shop to turn some naked bowls! : )

Ruth

Woodturners Logo
My shop and Turnings at
http://www.torne-lignum.com

Many thanks to all of you for your cordial understanding (standing?) of
this COC.
Humor, or what stands for it, is often a refuge for the mediocre. but of
course, not me.
In summary then: ornamentation of turned wood is a non-issue. Bad is
bad, Good is good. Arch

Fortiter,

Right on! I totally and wholeheartedly agree!

I'm afraid that I react to turned wooden items with color added (even if we
call it art) much in the same way that I react to a tattooed female breast.
Others may find great beauty in both.

One of life's great (and oft ignored) truths is that God's handiwork is
mighty hard to improve upon. I we still insist on trying, the effort should
be undertaken very, very carefully. Perhaps even reverently.

Let's not forget that wood, with its beautiful figure, burls, etc., is God's
work. Dare we even attempt to improve on that? How could we? Should we
not confine our efforts to revealing the beauty that is already there?
Same goes for the tattoo on the female anatomy. Shame on us!

Barry


"Ray Sandusky" wrote in message
...
Arch

If it takes color to be in a gallery, then I am with you! I would prefer
that the "Artistic" community look at our objects and see the beauty that
was put there by God and the form of the final product that we produced by
grace and divine intervention. I like some of the items that I see the
"community" tout as tremendous works, but I think most of it is a
travesty.

I can see painting over a poplar bowl, but if you are going to paint over
it, at least make the final exterior look more appealing than that which
you
have covered with the paint! There are some works in print that I would
rather see in the proverbial "circular file".

What happened to displaying the grain, figure and form of a turned object?
Why is there such a tendency for the gallery types to ignore the medium in
favor of the surface treatments. Why is it an embarrassment to say the
object was turned?

Now, some surface treatments are great - John Jordan's subtle carving and
texturing, Robyn Horn's chainsaw marks, Stoney Lamar's multi-axis
sculpting,
Andi Wolf's burned leaf patterns and Greame Priddle's ball peen hammer
marks
and burns - but why has the material been tossed out with the LDD water?
I
rather like seeing the grain pattern and figure of the wood. If I wanted
to
see a vessel with a completely covered surface I would look at pottery or
canvas. Our medium is wood - lowly, burnable, tossed to the side of the
road, pick your teeth with it - wood....and it is a wonderful living
thing.

Last week, an old friend of mine died - a very old friend - I could not
let
the death of this friend go without having it marked in some meaningful
way.
This old friend was a huge old Rock Elm tree that stood at the corner of
its
owner's property, providing a beautiful landmark and a site for all who
drove along the road where it lived. There was a storm and some wind and
then my friend was on the ground. I could think of no better way of
marking
its passing than by gathering up a few pieces and turning those pieces
into
something of lasting beauty. I chose to make an item that showed the
grain
and figure of the wood and the contrast between heart and sap woods. That
piece and the other 5 chunks that I gathered up will be preserved -
hopefully for as many years into the future as this tree stood. By the
way,
this tree was over 70 inches in diameter and estimated to be about 200
years
old.

Why would I want to gather this wood and cover it with paint, fake gold
leaf
or dental drill a million holes into it? I would rather have the wood
grain
and figure display the proud beauty that is a testament to the life and
wonder the living being provided to this world.

So, Mr., Mrs., Ms or Miss gallery curator, museum curator or artshow
jurist
please do not ignore the inherent beauty of our medium or reject those of
us
who like to let the material make our statement for us. I, for one, am
not
an artist who suffers from functional psychosis nor do I have the desire
to
cut my ear off! I just want my work to be appreciated for what it is; an
object I produced from a once living breathing being that unselfishly gave
its body to me to use to help me fulfill my passion for turning!

Oh, and Arch, thank you for foisting this subject upon the RCW at a time
when I had a few minutes to write my thoughts out in detail.

Ray Sandusky

www.artisticwoods.com

Dan Bollinger wrote:
Let's not forget that wood, with its beautiful figure, burls, etc., is
God's work.


Uh, daring to start a flaming, crusading war, let's stick to woodturning
instead of religion. However, if this thread is important to you, I
encourage you to take it to alt.religion where it would be more appropriate.

Uh, daring to react to a flaming, crusading war, let's let people post their
opinions w/o censor. To a committed Christian, Jew, what have you, all aspects
of their lives are relivant in light of their faith. Whether they appreciate
the sublime in a naturally finished burl or via more direct representational
artistic expressions they should be afforded the right to express it. Others
don't have to buy into it, but if the group can endure a discussion about female
sex toys w/o disintegrating, I think we can live with an occaisional reference
to deity. There's a difference between living your faith publically, and
cramming it down other's throats. IMHO, Barry is living his publically. On the
other hand, attemtps at censorship smack of cramming one's lack of faith down
another's throat. I find the latter much more offensive...

....Kevin
--
Kevin & Theresa Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb

Any belief is fine as long as you share it, eh?

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
news:PAK4b.246728$Oz4.65288@rwcrnsc54...
Let's not forget that wood, with its beautiful figure, burls, etc., is
God's
work.

Uh, daring to start a flaming, crusading war, let's stick to woodturning
instead of religion. However, if this thread is important to you, I
encourage you to take it to alt.religion where it would be more
appropriate.

Barry: Let's not forget that wood, with its beautiful figure, burls, etc.,
is God's work.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Dan: Uh, daring to start a flaming, crusading war, let's stick to
woodturning instead of religion.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Leo: I'm not religious, but when I read a statement like Barry's, I
substitute "nature's" for God's," and if it still makes sense, I deal with
it on that level. No need to fight a war on something we can agree on.

On the other hand, Barry, I think you are setting an arbitrary boundary
between acceptable modifications of natural beauty, and what is *going too
far.* I see beauty in a naturally formed piece of driftwood, or an eroded
stone, so how can I give myself permission to modify a piece of wood on the
lathe. And then, after I have altered its shape and texture, where do I get
permission to dope it up with oils, or varnishes, or other finishes? If I
stain it, to enhance the grain, is that OK? And then, if I add some color,
because I think that adds to the beauty of the finished object, how is that
different from the steps that preceded it?

All of these processes must be done in good taste, with artistry and
restraint. But, what is accepable, what we consider beautifuy, changes with
the times. Styles go in and out, and then come back. How different the
Victorian styles are from the arts and crafts. Yet both are valid--both can
be done well or badly, and neither can be justified by reference to any
*absolute*.

Uh, daring to start a flaming, crusading war, let's stick to woodturning
instead of religion. However, if this thread is important to you, I
encourage you to take it to alt.religion where it would be more
appropriate.

Uh, daring to react to a flaming, crusading war, let's let people post
their
opinions w/o censor. To a committed Christian, Jew, what have you, all
aspects
of their lives are relivant in light of their faith. Whether they
appreciate
the sublime in a naturally finished burl or via more direct
representational
artistic expressions they should be afforded the right to express it.
Others
don't have to buy into it, but if the group can endure a discussion about
female
sex toys w/o disintegrating, I think we can live with an occaisional
reference
to deity. There's a difference between living your faith publically, and
cramming it down other's throats. IMHO, Barry is living his publically.
On the
other hand, attemtps at censorship smack of cramming one's lack of faith
down
another's throat. I find the latter much more offensive...

...Kevin

Kevin, True, all true, and its STILL off topic. RCW was formed to talk
about one topic, turning. You are welcome to talk about religion at any of
the dozens of places on the web where it is not off topic.

Any belief is fine as long as you share it, eh?

Nope. I'd respond with, "Off topic" if someone who shared my belief posted
the same thing. And, perhaps they already have.

Leo.............I agree with you. I think. I wasn't trying to set new
boundaries..........just tell how my personal boundaries tend to run.

No one needs my permission or anyone else's to color, stain or do whatever
else they would like to a piece of wood (or to one's anatomy). Maybe I was
pleading for a little restraint and good taste in both arenas.

I was only offering my opinion. You and everyone else is certainly free
.........to take it or leave it. As for starting a war...........I think we
already have enough conflict in the world.

Barry




"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

Barry: Let's not forget that wood, with its beautiful figure, burls, etc.,
is God's work.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Dan: Uh, daring to start a flaming, crusading war, let's stick to
woodturning instead of religion.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Leo: I'm not religious, but when I read a statement like Barry's, I
substitute "nature's" for God's," and if it still makes sense, I deal with
it on that level. No need to fight a war on something we can agree on.

On the other hand, Barry, I think you are setting an arbitrary boundary
between acceptable modifications of natural beauty, and what is *going
too
far.* I see beauty in a naturally formed piece of driftwood, or an eroded
stone, so how can I give myself permission to modify a piece of wood on
the
lathe. And then, after I have altered its shape and texture, where do I
get
permission to dope it up with oils, or varnishes, or other finishes? If I
stain it, to enhance the grain, is that OK? And then, if I add some
color,
because I think that adds to the beauty of the finished object, how is
that
different from the steps that preceded it?

All of these processes must be done in good taste, with artistry and
restraint. But, what is accepable, what we consider beautifuy, changes
with
the times. Styles go in and out, and then come back. How different the
Victorian styles are from the arts and crafts. Yet both are valid--both
can
be done well or badly, and neither can be justified by reference to any
*absolute*.

Hay Barry, as much as I love woodturning and "natures" woods I must
admit that a womans breast is much more appealing. Now on the serious
side(oops) I have no problem with coloring being used to enhance the
wood grain of a bland piece of wood, but it should never be used to
cover up a turning that did not have any redeaming features to start with.

I had no intention of cramming my religion down anyone's throat or
flaunting it publicly. Sorry if my comments offended.

Barry

Barry, Good to hear that. And, I wasn't offended, so no apology is
necessary. My post was a practical one. Newsgroups go off topic on a
regular basis, and usually there is no harm. Some implode and never recover.
This is usually after a bout of OT religious or political discussion. RCW is
too valuable to me to loose. Hence, my shouts of "Off Topic!" Religion and
politics are two subjects best not disussed at the dinner table or in
newsgroups. imho, Dan

You showed all the class, Barry. What will we do when the word "god" is
forbidden? Will we have to burn or pull from the shelf every work of
Western (or Eastern) literature?


"Barry N. Turner" wrote in message
...
Uh.......Dan, please re-read my post. I still think its about
turning.............. in spite of my off-hand references to God and the
female anatomy. Everyone here is entitled to an opinion..........even
those
who would try to improve on perfection with some artist's colors. I was
simply offering mine...........along with a couple of examples. I just
don't think nature (God's handiwork) can be improved upon........no matter
if its a burl or a boob.

I had no intention of cramming my religion down anyone's throat or
flaunting it publicly. Sorry if my comments offended.

Barry

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
.net...
Uh, daring to start a flaming, crusading war, let's stick to
woodturning
instead of religion. However, if this thread is important to you, I
encourage you to take it to alt.religion where it would be more
appropriate.

Uh, daring to react to a flaming, crusading war, let's let people post
their
opinions w/o censor. To a committed Christian, Jew, what have you,
all
aspects
of their lives are relivant in light of their faith. Whether they
appreciate
the sublime in a naturally finished burl or via more direct
representational
artistic expressions they should be afforded the right to express it.
Others
don't have to buy into it, but if the group can endure a discussion
about
female
sex toys w/o disintegrating, I think we can live with an occaisional
reference
to deity. There's a difference between living your faith publically,
and
cramming it down other's throats. IMHO, Barry is living his
publically.
On the
other hand, attemtps at censorship smack of cramming one's lack of
faith
down
another's throat. I find the latter much more offensive...

...Kevin

Kevin, True, all true, and its STILL off topic. RCW was formed to talk
about one topic, turning. You are welcome to talk about religion at any
of
the dozens of places on the web where it is not off topic.

"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message . net...
I had no intention of cramming my religion down anyone's throat or
flaunting it publicly. Sorry if my comments offended.

Barry

Don't apologise Barry. If you give the bigamists an inch they will
take a mile. As far I'm concerned Dan and all of his wives can take a
long walk on a short pier.
God Bless,
Al Kyder

Don't apologise Barry. If you give the bigamists an inch they will
take a mile. As far I'm concerned Dan and all of his wives can take a
long walk on a short pier.
God Bless,
Al Kyder

Ya, see? This is exactly the kind of hatred and damage bringing religion
into a non-religious discussion does. Now, a formerly, reasonable member
like Al is making religious slurs, suggesting violence, and hoping my wife
and I die.

Dan

Dan Bollinger wrote: Ya, see? This is exactly the kind of hatred and
damage bringing religion into a non-religious discussion does. Now, a
formerly, reasonable member like Al is making religious slurs, suggesting
violence, and hoping my wife and I die.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dan, I have never known you to be disengenuous, so I have to assume you are
joking.

For those who may be new to the group, and who are not familiar with this
troll, he does not need an excuse to be obnoxious. Among his favorite
targets are all the residents of Utah, whom he classes as polygamists.

In no way is Barry's reference to the "natural" beauty of wood responsible
for this outburst.

Dan, I have never known you to be disengenuous, so I have to assume you
are
joking.
Leo,
No, not joking, but apparently mistaken. I'm not aware of Al Kyder's
history. Thanks for the update. I'll kill-file him right away. Dan

Dan Bollinger wrote:
Don't apologise Barry. If you give the bigamists an inch they will
take a mile. As far I'm concerned Dan and all of his wives can take a
long walk on a short pier.
God Bless,
Al Kyder


Ya, see? This is exactly the kind of hatred and damage bringing religion
into a non-religious discussion does. Now, a formerly, reasonable member
like Al is making religious slurs, suggesting violence, and hoping my wife
and I die.

Dan, if you had just skipped over Barry's original post, there wouldn't have
been a string of off-topic replies and maybe Al would have stayed in
hibernation. Well, at least for a little while longer. It wasn't Barry
mentioning God that is causing any problem, it's the net nazi censorship
attitude that solicits off-topic responses. If people want to mention their
intrepretation of turning in relation to their world view, then it's still on
topic as far as I'm concerned. People trying to censor others isn't.

You started your post with "Uh, daring to start a flaming, crusading war", so
it's pretty obvious that you were well aware of the potential bruhaha it would
start. If you really want to keep this group intact, you'd be well advised to
just skip/ignore posts you don't like/agree with. Responding to them inevitably
has just the opposite effect as you appparently know.

Funny how there's alwasy a huge outcry from the anti-God crowd, who then try to
blame all their off topic posts on some poor scapegoat...

....Kevin
--
Kevin & Theresa Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb

Truer words were never spoken Arch! Excellent treatise on color theory to
boot!

Dan
(Eccentric by Nature)

"Arch" wrote in message
...
snip
We can't win, so let's hear it for pure unadulterated wood grain and
pretend not to care about color. That is, if anybody's still awake.
Arch

Fortiter,

Thank you Dan. I guess that we have now come full circle around this
color wheel, and it sure presented a variety of shades, tints and bold
colors. My attitude toward the thread has also made a sort of circle.
I think I can now put it safely to rest.

As the thread unravelled, at first I was chagrined, then I was confused,
then embarrassed, then irked, then guilty and apprehensive. I reread
the entire thread and began musing (my excuse for wool gathering) about
what it says for our NG.

RCW is a healthy NG. In a small way like war, good things spin off from
bad threads. Embedded in the thread were many cogent comments. They are
important, but I believe that two characteristics that insure the
survival of RCW were displayed: a genuine and selfless interest in _all
facets of woodturning and the innate courtesy of our members. "Manners
Maketh Man" sure applies to this group, and as with family squabbles our
differences seem to make us stronger at the end of almost every COLORFUL
thread. I'm no Pollyanna, but somehow I'm not worried about having to
find a better woodturning group. Thanks for not laughing at my primer,
and thanks for each of your posts. Arch

(Aside to my COC chief. You can't tear my stripes off. You weren't very
crotchety either.)

Fortiter,

I think you're right, Dan, I've finally "seen the light." Oops, there I go
again.

Barry


"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
et...
Don't apologise Barry. If you give the bigamists an inch they will
take a mile. As far I'm concerned Dan and all of his wives can take a
long walk on a short pier.
God Bless,
Al Kyder

Ya, see? This is exactly the kind of hatred and damage bringing religion
into a non-religious discussion does. Now, a formerly, reasonable member
like Al is making religious slurs, suggesting violence, and hoping my wife
and I die.

Dan

Arch wrote:

(Aside to my COC chief. You can't tear my stripes off. You weren't very
crotchety either.)

Hmmm. Probably due to the two cohos (salmon) I caught. Went out the other day,
wind howlin' like a banshee, rain falling horizontally. Tossed some slightly
spalted herring out and just had an all around blast. Nice and snug in my
raingear and just happy as a clam. Hard to stay crotchety in weather like that
when the fish are biting. Did lose on.

Oh, and just to keep things on topic, I carefully watched the waves in case a
wayward cocobolo log happened to float up from Souch America. One didn't, but I
was looking.

Fishing & turning in God's country...

....Kevin
--
Kevin & Theresa Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb

Kevin, not understanding the situation,
wrote, "...in case a wayward cocobolo log happened to float up....."
**********************************************
Chief, you were on topic, but naive in your hopes. Those guys on the
coasts of
Caleefornia, Washington and B.C. would never let a log of any species
float by. A. ****************************************

Fortiter,

Chuck wrote: (clip) Does cocobolo even float? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Seems like a good question for David Letterman.

LOL! I'm surprised someone didn't Google this question instead of guess.
Ain't this the information age!? Cocobolo is the second most dense hardwood
in the world. Anything denser that water (specific gravity of 1.00 by
definition) will not float:

Lignum Vitae 1.05
Cocobolo 1.10
Ironwood 1.30


"Bob Pritchard" wrote in message
...
I could be way off but I think the only wood with a density high enough to
sink
is lignum vitae.

Does cocobolo even float? Ever see a hunk of cocobolo log? It's like
cement! AAMOF, they should call it cementwood. My wood guy has a
bunch of sections, I'll have to try and see if it floats.


Bob, Naugatuck Ct.
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

Dan:

Your research is a pretty good demonstration of why one must take with a
grain of salt just about any 'facts' from the internet.

The numbers for Lignum and Cocobolo are from samples. There can be
significant differences in the real world.

There is no such thing as ironwood -- not really. Every part of the
world has something which they call ironwood and they are all different
species. So, for ironwood to have any meaning at all, you need to know
who is calling the wood that and where they are. Then you might be able
to make a good guess.

Use of non-scientific names for species is a real problem. In Guatemala
the locals use the name Granadillo for the wood we call cocobolo. In
parts of Africa Granadillo is what we call African Blackwood (a
Dalbergia -- a rosewood, as is Cocobolo).

That said, most of the cocobolo I've ever tested, when dry, still will
not float.

There are thousands of known species and probably plenty that we don't
know. To say something is the most dense or the second most dense is
just asking for trouble.

BTW, do a little research on Snakewood -- the one from Guiana and
Surinam. The references indicate that it is less dense than lignum and
cocobolo but every sample I've ever messed with measured in the 1.4
range green. And, there isn't much moisture in them so dry they
shouldn't be much less.

Bill


In article f4Q6b.384899$Ho3.58215@sccrnsc03,
says...
LOL! I'm surprised someone didn't Google this question instead of guess.
Ain't this the information age!? Cocobolo is the second most dense hardwood
in the world. Anything denser that water (specific gravity of 1.00 by
definition) will not float:

Lignum Vitae 1.05
Cocobolo 1.10
Ironwood 1.30


"Bob Pritchard" wrote in message
...
I could be way off but I think the only wood with a density high enough to
sink
is lignum vitae.

Does cocobolo even float? Ever see a hunk of cocobolo log? It's like
cement! AAMOF, they should call it cementwood. My wood guy has a
bunch of sections, I'll have to try and see if it floats.


Bob, Naugatuck Ct.
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

Bill, Yep, anyone can say anything on a website. The claim that cocobolo
was the second most dense came from the cocobolo.net website. I figure they
ought to know. They could have said second most dense known wood and been
more accurate. I couldn't find my copy of the Wood Properties Handbook to do
a better check and I couldn't find anything at FPL, which is strange.

Your research is a pretty good demonstration of why one must take with a
grain of salt just about any 'facts' from the internet.

The numbers for Lignum and Cocobolo are from samples. There can be
significant differences in the real world.

There is no such thing as ironwood -- not really. Every part of the
world has something which they call ironwood and they are all different
species. So, for ironwood to have any meaning at all, you need to know
who is calling the wood that and where they are. Then you might be able
to make a good guess.

Use of non-scientific names for species is a real problem. In Guatemala
the locals use the name Granadillo for the wood we call cocobolo. In
parts of Africa Granadillo is what we call African Blackwood (a
Dalbergia -- a rosewood, as is Cocobolo).

That said, most of the cocobolo I've ever tested, when dry, still will
not float.

There are thousands of known species and probably plenty that we don't
know. To say something is the most dense or the second most dense is
just asking for trouble.

BTW, do a little research on Snakewood -- the one from Guiana and
Surinam. The references indicate that it is less dense than lignum and
cocobolo but every sample I've ever messed with measured in the 1.4
range green. And, there isn't much moisture in them so dry they
shouldn't be much less.

Bill


In article f4Q6b.384899$Ho3.58215@sccrnsc03,
says...
LOL! I'm surprised someone didn't Google this question instead of guess.
Ain't this the information age!? Cocobolo is the second most dense
hardwood
in the world. Anything denser that water (specific gravity of 1.00 by
definition) will not float:

Lignum Vitae 1.05
Cocobolo 1.10
Ironwood 1.30


"Bob Pritchard" wrote in message
...
I could be way off but I think the only wood with a density high
enough to
sink
is lignum vitae.

Does cocobolo even float? Ever see a hunk of cocobolo log? It's like
cement! AAMOF, they should call it cementwood. My wood guy has a
bunch of sections, I'll have to try and see if it floats.


Bob, Naugatuck Ct.
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

"Dan Bollinger" wrote:

Bill, Yep, anyone can say anything on a website. The claim that cocobolo
was the second most dense came from the cocobolo.net website

Dan, what is the cocobolo. net website?

TGIA,

Jay Sweeney in NH

Dan, what is the cocobolo. net website?

TGIA,

Jay Sweeney in NH

Check it out. www.cocobolo.net

I have a book on woods that puts Snakewood at a S. G. of 1.3 dry. The
book places Lignum at about 1.23 and Cocobolo at 1.1.

Sinkers!

I have a book on woods that puts Snakewood at a S. G. of 1.3 dry. The
book places Lignum at about 1.23 and Cocobolo at 1.1.

Jay:

The cocobolo.net website is marketing hype.

Bill

In article ,
says...
"Dan Bollinger" wrote:

Bill, Yep, anyone can say anything on a website. The claim that cocobolo
was the second most dense came from the cocobolo.net website

Dan, what is the cocobolo. net website?

TGIA,

Jay Sweeney in NH

That certainly agrees with my experience but I've seen books with
cocobolo in the .85 range, if I remember right. I've also seen two
purpleheart boards, same size, side-by-side, and one weighed at least
25% more than the other.

Bill

In article Pob7b.396892$o%2.178236@sccrnsc02,
says...
Sinkers!

I have a book on woods that puts Snakewood at a S. G. of 1.3 dry. The
book places Lignum at about 1.23 and Cocobolo at 1.1.