Just made a bowl for my granddaughter. I took a lot of care over it and
was especially proud of the finish I achieved. When I gave it to her she
said " Gee, thanks granddad, it looks just like plastic". I think that
probably we can go too far with this finishing lark and we are likely to
loose sight of the beauty of the wood itself. The finish should enhance
not detract.

Tom

On Dec 18, 9:01 am, "Tom Dougall" wrote:
Just made a bowl for my granddaughter. I took a lot of care over it and
was especially proud of the finish I achieved. When I gave it to her she
said " Gee, thanks granddad, it looks just like plastic". I think that
probably we can go too far with this finishing lark and we are likely to
loose sight of the beauty of the wood itself. The finish should enhance
not detract.

Tom

Hi Tom, I couldn't agree more and I have been guilty of making plastic
looking woodturnings. It's something I have been struggling with all
the time I've been turning. I think as woodturners we sand too high. I
rarely sand above 320 or 400 anymore. If the finish is going to be
lacquer 320 is fine. I'm sure most will say this is not high enough
but it's what works best for me. I believe sanding to very high grits
is the beginning of a plastic looking turning. Lately I have been
using a very simple finishing method that works very well with most
woods. After sanding to 320 apply a couple coats of Danish oil and let
it dry for a week. The Danish oil makes the color and the grain pop
out. Less than a week and this won't work. The oil needs to cure. Then
2-3 coats of a good quality finishing wax and buff. This gives a
finish almost anyone will like. It gives a real nice sheen and feels
nice too.
I do a lot of segmented work with very dense exotics and sometimes use
lacquer. I've found that sanding the actual finish to too high a grit
will result in a plastic looking turning. I used to spray a couple
coats flattening between with 4/0 steel wool and have found this makes
a plastic looking turning. Now I sand between coats with 320 grit
paper and this reduces the plastic look. I can't tell you why this
works as it goes against the theorie of lacquer but it works for me.
Bob
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

Tom Dougall said:

Just made a bowl for my granddaughter. I took a lot of care over it and
was especially proud of the finish I achieved. When I gave it to her she
said " Gee, thanks granddad, it looks just like plastic". I think that
probably we can go too far with this finishing lark and we are likely to
loose sight of the beauty of the wood itself. The finish should enhance
not detract.

Tom,
Like you, I have been on a quest for the ultimate finish, and have
dabbled with most of the contemporary finishes. I can offer you my
personal opinions on what I have perceived to be the strengths and
weaknesses of each.

Oil (BLO, Walnut, Tung, Mineral)
Easy to apply and repair. Catches dust, generally requires
reapplication as maintenance. Only walnut and mineral oil are
considered food safe. Not waterproof. Can take weeks to cure,
depending on the blend. Luster rather than gloss, but can be waxed and
polished to a pretty high sheen. Some woods absorb irregularly and
may look splotchy over time.

Petroleum based Poly
Slow drying time, but faster than oil. Fumes toxic. Very hard, and
tends to crack rather than moving with wood. Can achieve high gloss.
Waterproof. Solvent proof. Not easily repairable. Yellows over time
and can aggravate glue creep. Probably food safe unless you eat the
turning.

Water-borne Poly
Fast dry time. Fumes moderately toxic. Hard, seems to move better with
wood than spirits poly. High gloss can be achieved. Water proof once
cured. Resistant to most solvents, including alcohol. Not easily
repaired. Doesn't yellow or affect glue. Can blush. Probably food
safe, unless you eat the turning.

Shellac
Easy to apply. Very fast drying time. Fumes annoying. High gloss can
be achieved. Water proof, but not alcohol proof. Fairly easily
repaired. Nice depth. Comes in a variety of "colors" depending on the
degree of purification. Can yellow, but the ultra-blonde 100% dewaxed
I've been using hasn't yet in several years. Definitely food safe if
you enjoy eating bug secretions.

Nitro-Lacquer
Very fast dry time. Extremely toxic fumes. High gloss can be achieved.
Water and alcohol proof. Not easily repaired. Doesn't yellow, seems to
offer a lot of "depth". Can blush. Probably food safe if you don't
eat the turning.


All of these may (and with the exception of oil, should) be leveled by
sanding between coats, but sandpaper clogs quickly with shellac. Fibre
pads and steel wool are preferred by me when applying shellac. Do not
use steel wool with acrylic poly. I apply multiple coats, sanded in
between, of all finishes. Too coarse or too fine grades of sandpaper
( 220 or 320) should be avoided except on the final coat. I tend to
avoid highly polished "plastic dipped" finishes as they detract from
the character of the wood.. I generally reserve oil for cutting
boards, etc. 1-2 lb cut shellac is becoming one of my favorites - for
the quick dry, easy wiping application, and depth. Lacquer is another
favorite, for it's durability, resistance to chemicals, and depth, but
the fumes are really serious - especially in winter. I avoid petroleum
poly period, even thinned wiping poly. The water based poly seems
better, albeit a bit "plastic" looking. I apply thin, as a wipe, and
sand between coats to avoid excessive build.

On the final coat, I either sand to 400-600 for a satin finish, or you
may progress upwards and polish with compounds and wax to really bring
out the gloss, but this tends to make wooden items look artificial,
kinda like a bowling ball. A satin finish, sometimes waxed with
Johnson's non-silicon paste furniture/floor wax, is my personal
preference. Whatever you and your market prefers should be yours.
Either way, it is important to make certain the sanding swirls are
removed before applying any finish. You can wet the wood with alcohol
or naphtha under good lighting to highlight sanding marks.

My 2 cents worth...
FWIW,


Greg G.

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:37:54 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

Shellac
Easy to apply. Very fast drying time. Fumes annoying. High gloss can
be achieved. Water proof, but not alcohol proof. Fairly easily
repaired. Nice depth. Comes in a variety of "colors" depending on the
degree of purification. Can yellow, but the ultra-blonde 100% dewaxed
I've been using hasn't yet in several years. Definitely food safe if
you enjoy eating bug secretions.

You've never eaten M&Ms?

Larry Blanchard said:

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:37:54 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

Shellac
Easy to apply. Very fast drying time. Fumes annoying. High gloss can
be achieved. Water proof, but not alcohol proof. Fairly easily
repaired. Nice depth. Comes in a variety of "colors" depending on the
degree of purification. Can yellow, but the ultra-blonde 100% dewaxed
I've been using hasn't yet in several years. Definitely food safe if
you enjoy eating bug secretions.

You've never eaten M&Ms?

Yes, I know.


Greg G.

Nitro-Lacquer
Very fast dry time. Extremely toxic fumes. High gloss can be achieved.
Water and alcohol proof. Not easily repaired. Doesn't yellow, seems to
offer a lot of "depth". Can blush. Probably food safe if you don't
eat the turning.


My 2 cents worth...
FWIW,

Greg G.

Hi Greg, This may just be a typo but a lacquer finish is by far the
easiest of all finishes to repair. Most lacquer repairs can be done
simply by adding more lacquer to the affected area. Even blushing can
be repaired occasionally by adding more lacquer. Blushing is not a
lacquer problem but a problem created by the person applying the
lacquer either by applying it when the RH is too high or by an
incorrect mixture.
Lacquer having the ability to melt the previous layer is what makes it
so easy to repair. And unlike other film finishes you can spot repair
rather than having to refinish the whole piece. Bob
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

On Dec 18, 7:37 pm, Greg wrote:
Tom Dougall said:

Just made a bowl for my granddaughter. I took a lot of care over it and
was especially proud of the finish I achieved. When I gave it to her she
said " Gee, thanks granddad, it looks just like plastic". I think that
probably we can go too far with this finishing lark and we are likely to
loose sight of the beauty of the wood itself. The finish should enhance
not detract.

Tom,
Like you, I have been on a quest for the ultimate finish, and have
dabbled with most of the contemporary finishes. I can offer you my
personal opinions on what I have perceived to be the strengths and
weaknesses of each.

Oil (BLO, Walnut, Tung, Mineral)
Easy to apply and repair. Catches dust, generally requires
reapplication as maintenance. Only walnut and mineral oil are
considered food safe. Not waterproof. Can take weeks to cure,
depending on the blend. Luster rather than gloss, but can be waxed and
polished to a pretty high sheen. Some woods absorb irregularly and
may look splotchy over time.

Petroleum based Poly
Slow drying time, but faster than oil. Fumes toxic. Very hard, and
tends to crack rather than moving with wood. Can achieve high gloss.
Waterproof. Solvent proof. Not easily repairable. Yellows over time
and can aggravate glue creep. Probably food safe unless you eat the
turning.

Water-borne Poly
Fast dry time. Fumes moderately toxic. Hard, seems to move better with
wood than spirits poly. High gloss can be achieved. Water proof once
cured. Resistant to most solvents, including alcohol. Not easily
repaired. Doesn't yellow or affect glue. Can blush. Probably food
safe, unless you eat the turning.

Shellac
Easy to apply. Very fast drying time. Fumes annoying. High gloss can
be achieved. Water proof, but not alcohol proof. Fairly easily
repaired. Nice depth. Comes in a variety of "colors" depending on the
degree of purification. Can yellow, but the ultra-blonde 100% dewaxed
I've been using hasn't yet in several years. Definitely food safe if
you enjoy eating bug secretions.

Nitro-Lacquer
Very fast dry time. Extremely toxic fumes. High gloss can be achieved.
Water and alcohol proof. Not easily repaired. Doesn't yellow, seems to
offer a lot of "depth". Can blush. Probably food safe if you don't
eat the turning.

All of these may (and with the exception of oil, should) be leveled by
sanding between coats, but sandpaper clogs quickly with shellac. Fibre
pads and steel wool are preferred by me when applying shellac. Do not
use steel wool with acrylic poly. I apply multiple coats, sanded in
between, of all finishes. Too coarse or too fine grades of sandpaper
( 220 or 320) should be avoided except on the final coat. I tend to
avoid highly polished "plastic dipped" finishes as they detract from
the character of the wood.. I generally reserve oil for cutting
boards, etc. 1-2 lb cut shellac is becoming one of my favorites - for
the quick dry, easy wiping application, and depth. Lacquer is another
favorite, for it's durability, resistance to chemicals, and depth, but
the fumes are really serious - especially in winter. I avoid petroleum
poly period, even thinned wiping poly. The water based poly seems
better, albeit a bit "plastic" looking. I apply thin, as a wipe, and
sand between coats to avoid excessive build.

You say only walnut and mineral oil are considered food safe ???
Unless extracted without the protein walnut oil is no safer than
peanut oil for allergy sufferers.
Mineral oil is used as a laxative, as the body rejects it and all
that's in there with it ;-.
Pure tung oil is food safe, here's some info to that extend.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,190,42942

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

On the final coat, I either sand to 400-600 for a satin finish, or you
may progress upwards and polish with compounds and wax to really bring
out the gloss, but this tends to make wooden items look artificial,
kinda like a bowling ball. A satin finish, sometimes waxed with
Johnson's non-silicon paste furniture/floor wax, is my personal
preference. Whatever you and your market prefers should be yours.
Either way, it is important to make certain the sanding swirls are
removed before applying any finish. You can wet the wood with alcohol
or naphtha under good lighting to highlight sanding marks.

My 2 cents worth...
FWIW,

Greg G.

turnerbob said:

Nitro-Lacquer
...

Hi Greg, This may just be a typo but a lacquer finish is by far the
easiest of all finishes to repair. Most lacquer repairs can be done
simply by adding more lacquer to the affected area. Even blushing can
be repaired occasionally by adding more lacquer. Blushing is not a
lacquer problem but a problem created by the person applying the
lacquer either by applying it when the RH is too high or by an
incorrect mixture.
Lacquer having the ability to melt the previous layer is what makes it
so easy to repair. And unlike other film finishes you can spot repair
rather than having to refinish the whole piece. Bob
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

Sorry, yes, it was a typo. And you are correct about the blush, but
due to the rapid evaporation of the solvent, it seems to me to be more
prone than some other finishes. Low temps seem to aggravate it as
well. Not a problem for me, as I work in a semi-controlled environ
only during certain times of the year. (Full moon. In leap years...)

;-)



Greg G.

said:

You say only walnut and mineral oil are considered food safe ???
Unless extracted without the protein walnut oil is no safer than
peanut oil for allergy sufferers.

Well... that's an allergy problem, not an innate toxicity problem for
most people, but I understand...

Mineral oil is used as a laxative, as the body rejects it and all
that's in there with it ;-.

In quantity, yes. You may not be aware that many food and candy
products are coated with mineral oil. Gummy bear/worms and pectins to
mention a few.

And of course, shellac is used on food products sold at the grocery as
well. M&Ms for instance.

Pure tung oil is food safe, here's some info to that extend.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,190,42942

Didn't know that. I've always heard otherwise, but it could be the
dryers in some products which propagate that rumor. BLO might be
non-toxic without the dryers as well, but it could take months to
harden...

Have fun and take care

Thanks, Leo.


Greg G.

Mineral oil is used as a laxative, as the body rejects it and all
that's in there with it ;-.

In quantity, yes. *You may not be aware that many food and candy
products are coated with mineral oil. Gummy bear/worms and pectins to
mention a few.

I never heard anyone being able to make a "coat" with extra refined
engine oil, as that's what mineral oil is basically, it will never
harden, and a bag with candy with the bottom having a bunch of oil in
it doesn't sound to appetizing to me, but I do know that Carnauba wax
and also shellack is used as a food/candy glosser/cover

And of course, shellac is used on food products sold at the grocery as
well. *M&Ms for instance.

Pure tung oil is food safe, here's some info to that extend.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,190,42942

Didn't know that. *I've always heard otherwise, but it could be the
dryers in some products which propagate that rumor. BLO might be
non-toxic without the dryers as well, but it could take months to
harden...

unlike line seed oil. tung will polymerize much faster, usually in
less 24 hours in warm conditions.

Have fun and take care

Thanks, Leo.

Greg G.

On Dec 21, 7:48*am, Greg wrote:
turnerbob said:

Nitro-Lacquer
...
Hi Greg, This may just be a typo but a lacquer finish is by far the
easiest of all finishes to repair. Most lacquer repairs can be done
simply by adding more lacquer to the affected area. Even blushing can
be repaired occasionally by adding more lacquer. Blushing is not a
lacquer problem but a problem created by the person applying the
lacquer either by applying it when the RH is too high or by an
incorrect mixture.
Lacquer having the ability to melt the previous layer is what makes it
so easy to repair. And unlike other film finishes you can spot repair
rather than having to refinish the whole piece. Bob
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

Sorry, yes, it was a typo. And you are correct about the blush, but
due to the rapid evaporation of the solvent, it seems to me to be more
prone than some other finishes. Low temps seem to aggravate it as
well. *Not a problem for me, as I work in a semi-controlled environ
only during certain times of the year. (Full moon. In leap years...)

;-)

Greg G.

Hi Greg, Yes I have to agree about the blush but only when conditions
are incorrect.
I hope all have a nice holiday. I have actually sent a letter to santa
requesting all get that turning tool they have been wanting. All
except for Greg who I have requested that santa send him a half dozen
highly colored exotic hardwood boards for the kaleidoscope turning we
all expect to see from him the first of the year. :-) Sorry Greg I
couldn't resist. All in good fun. Bob
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com

turnerbob said:

I hope all have a nice holiday. I have actually sent a letter to santa
requesting all get that turning tool they have been wanting. All
except for Greg who I have requested that santa send him a half dozen
highly colored exotic hardwood boards for the kaleidoscope turning we
all expect to see from him the first of the year. :-) Sorry Greg I
couldn't resist. All in good fun. Bob

Bob, I'll second your first request with the addition of a small load
of scrap M2-11 steel so that everyone can build their own endless
supply of turning tools with creativity and ingenuity as their guide.

As for me, wood is always good. It's getting pretty pricey these days.
I'd like to build more furniture, but the wood costs a chunk. The
segmented woodturnings are an inexpensive way to experience first hand
various woods; their gluing, cutting, and finishing characteristics.

For instance, did you know that if you use water-borne poly on
Honduras mahogany, it will pick up a pinkish tinge? How would you
like to find that out after applying it to a wall sized media center.
(Yeah, I know, always check your finishes for compatibility... And no,
it's not moisture, it's a chemical in the poly.)
Or that Makore releases a crystalline chemical when glued and will
turn soft maple bluish black. Ah, live and learn.

Reality bestows a lump of coal. Being a very bad boy, I'm used to it.
Christmas for me used to involve a hot dog from the gas station and a
day of cable sci-fi reruns while I fixed electronic crap. Coupled with
a desire for the planet to make it through another year without being
destroyed by idiots.

Things have really turned around these days, however. Now it's a
pizza bought a day ahead, a day of sci-fi and Norm reruns on DVD, and
a day of coding coupled with gluing hundreds of little pieces of wood
together after first cutting them apart. Now that's progress! ;-)

But all kidding aside - as for the polychromatic turning, you guys
shouldn't hold your breath. Then again, perhaps I'll actually try and
come up with one that isn't too risque - just for your edification.
After all, one can only sell what the market demands. I take cash and
dead deciduous trees.

Have a great Christmas, and the same to the rest of the denizens of
the group.


Greg G.