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JD JD is offline
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Default Considering First Segmented Turning

I'm considering trying my hand at my first segmented turning but would
like to pick your brains before starting. I've a few questions....

Where do you come up with the wood? I like the free stuff myself.

Anyone have any favorite sources? I've a few cabinet shops local who
build solid wood cabinets, figured I could pick through their scrap
bins for pieces.

Does the wood need to be kiln dried?

Can I use any combination of woods or is there a method to the
madness? Does various hardnesses matter?

Anyone have any favorite combinations?

What type glue do you recommend? I've seen the strength of regular
carpenters glue, is that good enough?

Any opinions or information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

JD

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Default Considering First Segmented Turning

JD wrote:
I'm considering trying my hand at my first segmented turning but would
like to pick your brains before starting. I've a few questions....

Where do you come up with the wood? I like the free stuff myself.

Anyone have any favorite sources? I've a few cabinet shops local who
build solid wood cabinets, figured I could pick through their scrap
bins for pieces.

Does the wood need to be kiln dried?

Can I use any combination of woods or is there a method to the
madness? Does various hardnesses matter?

Anyone have any favorite combinations?

What type glue do you recommend? I've seen the strength of regular
carpenters glue, is that good enough?

Any opinions or information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

JD


Take a look at Kevin Neelley's web site. He provides a lot of good
information on how he does his segmented turnings along with software to
aid in design/layout for the segments.

http://www.turnedwood.com/

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

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Default Considering First Segmented Turning

In article . com,
JD wrote:

...

Thanks in advance,

Some of my sources http://www.segmentedturning.com/
http://www.segmentedturning.co.uk/
http://www.woodturningonline.com/Tur...ing/index.html
.... and my first effort http://home.wavecable.com/~n7bsn/Photo/Seg1.jpg

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--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv
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Default Considering First Segmented Turning

JD wrote:

I'm considering trying my hand at my first segmented turning but would
like to pick your brains before starting. I've a few questions....

Where do you come up with the wood? I like the free stuff myself.

Anyone have any favorite sources? I've a few cabinet shops local who
build solid wood cabinets, figured I could pick through their scrap
bins for pieces.

Does the wood need to be kiln dried?

Can I use any combination of woods or is there a method to the
madness? Does various hardnesses matter?

Anyone have any favorite combinations?

What type glue do you recommend? I've seen the strength of regular
carpenters glue, is that good enough?

Any opinions or information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

JD


I do segmented work and sell my work in a few galleries here in Hawaii.
Buying wood gives you the opportunity to get relatively consistent
stock, but you can do segmented turning with "found" stock.

If you don't have a planer of some sort, plan on a lot of sanding to
prep the wood before and/or after you cut segments from it. It may not
be necessary to plane the wood first, but it makes things easier down
the road.

I'm sure there are quite a few web sites out there with instructions on
how to make segmented vessels, but a few things that may help:

If possible, start with wood of the same moisture content. This does
not mean it needs to be kiln dried, but it does need to be dry.

If possible, start with wood that is planed to the same thickness. This
will minimize sanding individual rings before gluing them up into the
vessel shape.

Begin with a plan. I use simple graph paper to draw the profile of the
vessel, then transfer the "measurements" of ring diameters to an excel
spreadsheet to compute the actual cut lengths for segments for each
ring. You can use one of the programs available online, but if you
don't have the concept first, the program won't really do what you want.
Some are quite cumbersome to draw the profile, and I can draw a new
profile on graph paper and input it to excel in far less time than
learning how to make the program work to draw the same sort of curves...
(and I've used more than a few graphics programs, including Autocad.)

Plan on a long time to complete a segmented project, at least the first
time or two. To be even minimally efficient requires some jigs or
precision setups for the angles involved, and getting the jigs or
equipment set up takes some time. Once you have the setups, the amount
of time per vessel isn't bad, but it's spread over a relatively large
amount of calendar time. A 36" tall 11" diameter vase may take less
than 40 working hours to execute, but takes nearly 6 weeks due
limitations on how many rings I can do at once without waiting for them
to dry. Major steps are cut segments, glue into rings, surface rings
flat, glue 4-5 rings to project, turn the shape, and repeat until the
project is done. Given I have a full time job paying the bills, I have
a limited number of hours available each night and weekend. However, in
full cycle I can turn the 4 rough rings on the project to size, surface
the 4 rings I cut and glued last night and glue them to the project, and
then cut segments and glue up 4 new rings and get them into the kiln to
dry overnight. Thus, I can move up 4 rings per day until I get to final
sanding and finishing. The first segmented vessel I made seemed to take
forever, but now, I plan about an hour per ring average for most of my
projects, but I have an established process and don't need to set up
jigs or equipment any more. Just the difference in making the hold down
for the first chop saw was an amazing time saver.

For the vessels I do, I use either 18 or 36 segments per ring. This is
a lot, but gives me more flexibility for patterns in the vessel. I have
one miter saw set up with a 5 degree angle, (which produces segments for
36 segment rings) and another with a 10 degree angle (which produces
segments for an 18 segment ring). Both feature shop-build "micrometer"
fences to ensure exact segment length esired is what is cut, and spring
loaded hold downs to keep the cut segment in place so I don't have to
cut, release the trigger, and wait for the blade to stop before I raise
the blade. (Raising the blade while it is spinning will often catch the
segment and toss it backwards, denting or damaging it and potentially me
if it were to bounce.) Once I got the two chop saws set up with precise
angles, I haven't used them for anything else. Given a precise angle
and a sharp blade, there should be no reason to sand individual segments
before gluing into rings. Simple miter saws are preferred, as the more
expensie, sliding miters are not quite as stable in the long run.

Really big hose clamps (188 size at Napa parts store, or other large
ones from a commercial pipe supply house) are good for gluing up rings.
These will do about 10" diameter, and can be extended with other
clamps of the same width. Smaller projects use shorter/smaller clamps.

Try to use woods with the same relative hardness. When you sand, (and
to some extent when you turn) the soft segments will sand away more than
the hard ones, resulting in a wavy surface instead of a round one.

When you glue up rings, try to keep the grain consistent. Each segment
should be cut with grain paralell to length of the segment. When the
segments are glued into a ring, you end up with the grain running around
the ring. (the glue joints of each ring are end grain joints. They
aren't terribly strong, but when the rings are glued together, the
parallel grain between rings is extremely strong. Avoid cross grain
glue joints if possible, because periodic given moisture changes, the
glue joint will eventually fail. Titebond II or a similar glue works
just fine. If the segments are cut accurately, you shouldn't have any
gaps within a ring, and if you surface the rings flat, you shouldn't
have any gaps between rings. I use a 24" disk mounted on my lathe to
flatten each ring (typically within a few thousandths of an inch) before
gluing the rings to each other. If you want grain to run vertically,
you will be doing "stave" work, and will want all grain in the project
vertical. Cutting a staved project is much more difficult, especially
at first, as you need compound angles on each segment. For this you
almost must use a table saw sled (which could also be used to cut
segments for regular flat rings).

As you glue the rings to the project, you can get away with bar clamps,
but it's a juggling act at best to get them on and the rings concentric
to the project base. A press works much better (though takes time to
build). An alternate is a bunch of weight. Before I built my press,
I'd gotten away with putting a plywood disk over the project and
carefully setting a 5 gallon bucket of sand on top when I didn't have
clamps that were long enough.

If you are making a vessel with relatively vertical walls, don't glue up
more than 4 or 5 rings before you turn them. Two reasons: 1) you
probably don't have tools that can reach safely much more deep into a
vessel unless you do deep turning already, and 2) any inaccuracy in
cutting or gluing will cause the rings to be out of round and/or each
ring to be offset, which is compounded the more rings you add at each
step. Also, if you don't get the rings surfaced flat, you will also
cause it to be off axis compared to what you expect.

Color combinations are a personal thing. Most of my projects use Koa as
the base, Alder or Maple, Purpleheart, Padauk, Walnut, Mango, Brazilian
Mahogany, Wenge and others as accent colors depending on the design. Use
what's available to you for the first one and get more creative as you
go along.

Good Luck!
--Rick
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Default Considering First Segmented Turning

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:05:25 -0000, JD wrote:

I'm considering trying my hand at my first segmented turning but would
like to pick your brains before starting. I've a few questions....


I'm no expert, but I've made a few, and they all turned out pretty
good.

Where do you come up with the wood? I like the free stuff myself.


I like free too- one of my favorite segement projects was made from a
box of mesquite cutoffs that a guy sent me for the cost of shipping
after he installed a mesquite floor. They were little triangles, but
wood doesn't need to be big for segemented turnings.

Anyone have any favorite sources? I've a few cabinet shops local who
build solid wood cabinets, figured I could pick through their scrap
bins for pieces.


Try the flooring guys. Otherwise, yes, scrap bins from anywhere that
uses hardwood are a gold mine for what you're contemplating. I do
more flatwork than turning, so there's always plenty of scrap around
for me.

Does the wood need to be kiln dried?


I don't suppose it would have to be, but I don't think I'd personally
bother with trying to make a segemented turning out of wet wood.
There's a chance it would tear itself apart as it dries, and that's a
lot of time to invest for that to happen.

Can I use any combination of woods or is there a method to the
madness? Does various hardnesses matter?


They matter, but if you have a light touch, you should be able to mix
whatever you like. The only warning I have for you is that soft white
woods like aspen or basswood will pick up color from darker woods when
you sand it, and look sort of dirty. Better to use a hard light wood,
if you need it to stay bright.

Anyone have any favorite combinations?


What type glue do you recommend? I've seen the strength of regular
carpenters glue, is that good enough?


Carpenter's glue is fine. But don't jump the gun- you can usually
keep working after it tacks with flat work, but when you spin it on
the lathe, you really want to let it set up for 24-48 hours first.




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Default Considering First Segmented Turning

On Jul 6, 12:16 pm, Ralph E Lindberg wrote:
In article . com,

JD wrote:
...


Thanks in advance,


Some of my sourceshttp://www.segmentedturning.com/http://www.segmentedturning.co.uk/http://www.woodturningonline.com/Turning/segmented_turning/index.html
... and my first efforthttp://home.wavecable.com/~n7bsn/Photo/Seg1.jpg

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found athttp://www.ralphandellen.us/rv


Very nice bowl Ralph. RICK do you have a site?
I did the beginner one, the one on one of your source sites.
http://www.woodturningonline.com/Tur...ing/index.html.
My site is http://mawarner12345.tripod.com/bowls_2007/. I use this
site mostly for myself to see how I am progressing and to remember my
bowls as people seem to take them from me and the pictures help me
remember the mistakes I made on each one. I find getting a good colour
contrast is hard to do here with local woods. I am going to look at
what hardwood flooring has to offer. Getting my angles cut and tight
fitting is something I am still trying to improve on. When I get a new
lathe I will do some green turning again.

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