Some of my recent posts don't show up on my webtv so if this is a repeat
forgive. I have two gallons of hi-gloss dark green acrylic enamel.
Lorraine likes the color but not the shine for her new 'fern room' and I
hate to waste the enamel. Is there a way to make high gloss enamel into
flat or at least low satin? TIA.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch wrote:
Some of my recent posts don't show up on my webtv so if this is a repeat
forgive. I have two gallons of hi-gloss dark green acrylic enamel.
Lorraine likes the color but not the shine for her new 'fern room' and I
hate to waste the enamel. Is there a way to make high gloss enamel into
flat or at least low satin? TIA.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


You can buy a flattening agent to add to the paint but it may be less
expensive to just buy the color in the sheen desired.

Interlux is one manufacturer of a flattening agent. See:

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,15733.htm

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Arch) wrote:

Some of my recent posts don't show up on my webtv so if this is a repeat
forgive. I have two gallons of hi-gloss dark green acrylic enamel.
Lorraine likes the color but not the shine for her new 'fern room' and I
hate to waste the enamel. Is there a way to make high gloss enamel into
flat or at least low satin? TIA.

May sound silly, but try a little corn starch.

(Well, Does sound silly.)

Thanks Jack & L.D. I think I'm better off buying some flat paint or
first trying a package of corn starch. My wallet and I know the
Searsport, Me. Hamilton Marine store very well. Funny coincidence.

BTW, what makes an enamel or lacquer gloss or semi gloss or a flat paint
flat?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch wrote:
Some of my recent posts don't show up on my webtv so if this is a repeat
forgive. I have two gallons of hi-gloss dark green acrylic enamel.
Lorraine likes the color but not the shine for her new 'fern room' and I
hate to waste the enamel. Is there a way to make high gloss enamel into
flat or at least low satin? TIA.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Talc so I've been told. Something to do with solids in suspension
refracting rays of light in different directions so it appears to be
dull. High gloss products are harder and more wear and weather
resistent than semi-gloss or flat.
That's about all I remember from my apprenticeship days 40+ years ago
so I might be wrong :-)
Peter
Visit my site at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/pHyde/

"Arch" wrote: (clip) BTW, what makes an enamel or lacquer gloss or semi
gloss or a flat paint flat?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Finally, a question I can answer. In the can the paint consists of a liquid
with suspended particles of pigment. As the paint dries, the liquid phase
shrinks, due mostly to evaporation of the solvent. If, after drying, the
"liquid" surface still covers the particles, the surface will be
smooth--thus, high gloss. If the particles stick up through the "liquid"
surface, the reflected light is scattered, so the gloss is reduced or lost
completely.

If you paint a piece of bare wood, the penetration of the liquid varies from
point to point across the grain. On the hardest parts, the gloss will be
retained, while on the soft parts the liquid soaks in, leaving more of the
pigment esxposed. This is why the grain shows up as a gloss/flat pattern.

So how do they make semigloss or dull varnish? The pigment particles are
transparent--have the same index of refraction as the liquid.

Arch wrote:
Some of my recent posts don't show up on my webtv so if this is a repeat
forgive. I have two gallons of hi-gloss dark green acrylic enamel.
Lorraine likes the color but not the shine for her new 'fern room' and I
hate to waste the enamel. Is there a way to make high gloss enamel into
flat or at least low satin? TIA.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Hi, Arch.

I turn for fun, but finishing my work/projects of part of what I do for
a living. If I were you I would use the paint you have for primer and
put a finish coat of new paint on at the correct level of sheen you
want. Changing the sheen of paint is a pain in the butt.

But you can indeed put in a flattening agent to reduce the reflectivity
of finishes. I shoot a lot of a particular conversion lacquer, and
when in touch with the tech support guys at the factory (it is a small
specialty company) this very subject came up when talking to one of the
chemists in charge of formulation.

The flatteners in use today are NOT organics of any type. They are
ground crystalline products that are ground so fine that they use
another measurement that I am not familiar with to describe how small
the particles are. The chemist told me that their flattener was about
he equivalent of a 50,000 grit sandpaper grit, or finer.

The powdered crystals sometimes go to the bottom of the bucket on his
stuff, and when I am trying to get them back in solution I can pull
some of it up on a stick. One time I let a blob of it dry, and it
easily broke open and and I could see that it looked like the finest
sawdust I had ever seen. I actually thought it was something foreign
in the lacquer (duh)so I called the factory to find out what it was.
Then came the explanation, along with the chiding for not stirring
their semi gloss material really well.

And quite simply, the more flattener, the less shine. They use the
same formula for all but dead flat to achieve their interpretation of
gloss, semi gloss and satin. With this in mind, I was able to uncover
the fact that the little boutique mixed the resins and solvents to make
a batch of finish, and simply pours that finish on top of the pre
measured flatteners that have been measured dry and dropped into a can
before filling. It is our job in the field to get the flatteners into
the resins.

Flatteners work the same with most oil base paints, but since paints
are thicker they hold the flattener in suspension and you don't see it.
Also, at the huge factories they mix the flattening agent in the batch
of paint and dispense the mixed product into the cans so chances of
complete separation are almost nil.

Probably more than you ever wanted to know...

Robert

Thanks to Leo and Robert, I and probably several others here, know a
little more about the coatings that we apply to our turnings. That's on
topic for woodturners and not their first good answer for us.

I had it wrong. I thought that something is added to make the coating
glossy instead
of something being added to flatten it. Sort of like I thought for years
that hi-test gas had something added to make it burn faster, not to
retard it. (actually I thought the gas worked by exploding, not by
burning) That's not on topic.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I noticed painting metal with auto paint that more coats meant more sheen to
a point. Granted they were thin coats, but at two not much sheen, at four a
lot of sheen. I was thinking this might be a measure of how thin the coat
of paint was on tools in the store. No soaking in on metal, I don't think..
Maybe something else at work..

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"Arch" wrote: (clip) BTW, what makes an enamel or lacquer gloss or semi
gloss or a flat paint flat?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Finally, a question I can answer. In the can the paint consists of a
liquid
with suspended particles of pigment. As the paint dries, the liquid phase
shrinks, due mostly to evaporation of the solvent. If, after drying, the
"liquid" surface still covers the particles, the surface will be
smooth--thus, high gloss. If the particles stick up through the "liquid"
surface, the reflected light is scattered, so the gloss is reduced or lost
completely.

If you paint a piece of bare wood, the penetration of the liquid varies
from
point to point across the grain. On the hardest parts, the gloss will be
retained, while on the soft parts the liquid soaks in, leaving more of the
pigment esxposed. This is why the grain shows up as a gloss/flat pattern.

So how do they make semigloss or dull varnish? The pigment particles are
transparent--have the same index of refraction as the liquid.

Jim Hall wrote:
I noticed painting metal with auto paint that more coats meant more sheen to
a point. Granted they were thin coats, but at two not much sheen, at four a
lot of sheen. I was thinking this might be a measure of how thin the coat
of paint was on tools in the store. No soaking in on metal, I don't think..
Maybe something else at work..



More coats of finish mean more resin solids. As you build coats, more
resin solids mean a smoother finish as all the tiny, tiny voids and
imperfections are filled in, making the reflectivity of the finish less
scattered.

Robert

wrote:


Jim Hall wrote:
I noticed painting metal with auto paint that more coats meant more
sheen to a point. Granted they were thin coats, but at two not much
sheen, at four a lot of sheen. I was thinking this might be a
measure of how thin the coat of paint was on tools in the store. No
soaking in on metal, I don't think.. Maybe something else at work..



More coats of finish mean more resin solids. As you build coats, more
resin solids mean a smoother finish as all the tiny, tiny voids and
imperfections are filled in, making the reflectivity of the finish
less scattered.

Robert



Seems like you would build voids at some number of coats?

Lobby Dosser wrote:


Seems like you would build voids at some number of coats?

You mean make new voids, or build up existing ones? I am talking
about the micro-tiny pores left in metal primer after being sanded to
the proper grit, or the same on wood that has been sanded smooth. I am
not talking about hammer dents, nail holes, or chips in bondo.

Robert

Lobby Dosser wrote:


Seems like you would build voids at some number of coats?

You mean make new voids, or build up existing ones? I am talking
about the micro-tiny pores left in metal primer after being sanded to
the proper grit, or the same on wood that has been sanded smooth. I am
not talking about hammer dents, nail holes, or chips in bondo.

Robert

wrote in message
oups.com...
Seems like you would build voids at some number of coats?

You mean make new voids, or build up existing ones? I am talking
about the micro-tiny pores left in metal primer after being sanded to
the proper grit, or the same on wood that has been sanded smooth. I am
not talking about hammer dents, nail holes, or chips in bondo.


ALL those coats are sanded to a fare-the-well, too. My hands ache just
thinking of it.

Can't do that with wood, by and large, but you can burnish to make the pores
smaller, and buff to make the rough edges rounder to get more direct return
on your light.

wrote:


Lobby Dosser wrote:


Seems like you would build voids at some number of coats?

You mean make new voids, or build up existing ones? I am talking
about the micro-tiny pores left in metal primer after being sanded to
the proper grit, or the same on wood that has been sanded smooth. I
am not talking about hammer dents, nail holes, or chips in bondo.

Robert



I'm talking make new voids. Say you fill the last of the voids at coat X,
do you add voids if you continue with coat X+1? Or do you just reach a
point of diminishing returns?

Lobby Dosser wrote:

I'm talking make new voids. Say you fill the last of the voids at coat X,
do you add voids if you continue with coat X+1? Or do you just reach a
point of diminishing returns?

On wood, the tiny little voids left when sanded to 220 are what allow
to properly adhere to the surface. The coatings will fill the voids
left behind, but to get a really mirror smooth finish, several coats
must be applied, then polished down with several grits (600 - 12,000 or
so) to remove all imperfections. Look at your finish before you stop
finishing, and you will see how rough it is; polishing the surface
really just flattens out all texture and tiny scratches left from
previous sandings.

To look at it another way, look at using the old fashioned pore
fillers. They were used widely on opened grained woods such as
furniture grade mohagany many years ago. The reason they were used it
that the voids caused by the tubules would never fill by themselves, no
matter how much finish you put on them. You can try this yourself by
putting several coats of finish on another open grained wood, oak. Put
all the finish you want on it, and you may evnetually cover over the
pores nicely, but you will still see the grain.

To continue to add finish is as you say, X+1. At some point you need
to stop adding and start taking off if you are looking for a mirror
shiny surface. Worse, if you start with a bad substrate, you will
always have to deal with it. All the imperfections are just amplified
(including improperly applied previous coats of finish!) when you add
more coats.

My auto finishing friend uses a term called "color sanding". He never
worries about stuff in his finish, voids, orange peel, fisheye, or
anything else. He puts on so much poly enamel (as per manufacturer)
that he has a thick coat to work on to sand and polish off all the
imperfections. He polishes and buffs off about 1/3 of what he applies.
Then he puts on a light coat of clear and just buffs it out.

The guy I buy my finishing stuff from is a professional refinisher and
teacher. He has advised me that I need to start with 9-10 mil of
finish in order to polish out the finish correctly. This allows the
finsher to cut down all the finish needed to get to the bottom of any
small voids or orange peel without cutting through the finish.

But if you are NOT going to buff, sand or polish out your voids, then
you will indeed wind up with the X+1 effect.

Robert

wrote:

But if you are NOT going to buff, sand or polish out your voids, then
you will indeed wind up with the X+1 effect.

Robert



Thanks Robert, good explanation.