I need to experiment with some new shapes in my hydraulic press set up. Basically I have a master die that holds a 6 inch disk of dead soft copper and I drive a punch into it to form a hollow vessel. I wish to try some new shapes and sizes. The current dies and punches are steel. I can easily turn a piece of oak to the correct size and shape, but I am wondering if there are other good or better woods to use. The amount of preasure generated on the steel die/punch set up is 3500 psi. The wood could be a one use punch, but it would be nice if there is a better choice with a nice compressive strength.
The size of the piece would be a cylinder of 2.5 inches diameter and a length of 5 inches. The working end of the punch would have a rounded flat bottom (radius of 3/16 inch) and could also be spherical (diameter of 2.5 inches) or bullet shape or a taper.
For a picture of what I am doing please go to: http://www.poirierstudio.com/basic%20die%20forming.html

Thanks
Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea

Here is some information that may help you. It is a long URL. If it
doesn't execute well just do a Google search on "mechanical properties
of wood".

I haven't gotten too deep into your website. Do you also do metal
spinning to get these shapes?

DW


http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...of%20 wood%22


Charles Friedman wrote:
I need to experiment with some new shapes in my hydraulic press set up.
Basically I have a master die that holds a 6 inch disk of dead soft
copper and I drive a punch into it to form a hollow vessel. I wish to
try some new shapes and sizes. The current dies and punches are steel.
I can easily turn a piece of oak to the correct size and shape, but I am
wondering if there are other good or better woods to use. The amount of
preasure generated on the steel die/punch set up is 3500 psi. The wood
could be a one use punch, but it would be nice if there is a better
choice with a nice compressive strength.
The size of the piece would be a cylinder of 2.5 inches diameter and a
length of 5 inches. The working end of the punch would have a rounded
flat bottom (radius of 3/16 inch) and could also be spherical (diameter
of 2.5 inches) or bullet shape or a taper.
For a picture of what I am doing please go to:
http://www.poirierstudio.com/basic%20die%20forming.html

Thanks
Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea

In article ,
"Charles Friedman" wrote:

The size of the piece would be a cylinder of 2.5 inches diameter and a length
of 5 inches. The working end of the punch would have a rounded flat bottom
(radius of 3/16 inch) and could also be spherical (diameter of 2.5 inches) or
bullet shape or a taper.

My initial gut reaction is that hard maple would do better than oak. My
second reaction is that actual numbers are available in reference books.
Parts of one of the best are available on-line:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch04.pdf

Skip down to table 4.3b for Lb. and inch units - 4.3a is for
metric-thinkers.

That sort-of confirms my gut, but my gut is wrong depending on species
of oak (the red that's common here is weaker in compression parallel to
grain than sugar maple (which is aka hard maple). But if you can find
some black locust you're in who-hoo land!

In any case, if your figure of 3500PSI is correct, many woods will do
(and probably more than once) IF the load is primarily taken parallel to
the grain (ie, on end-grain). Live oak appears to be the best bet for
side-grain loading (in US woods). There must be some side loading in
punching a 6 inch disk with a 2.5-3 inch punch, to form the sides. The
die might benefit from hoops or pipe clamps to restrain it from
splitting.

Lingnumvitae (steel might be cheaper) and Ipe look worth investigating
for imported woods. Ipe is becoming common as deck material.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
"Charles Friedman" wrote:

The size of the piece would be a cylinder of 2.5 inches diameter and a length
of 5 inches. The working end of the punch would have a rounded flat bottom
(radius of 3/16 inch) and could also be spherical (diameter of 2.5 inches) or
bullet shape or a taper.

My initial gut reaction is that hard maple would do better than oak. My
second reaction is that actual numbers are available in reference books.
Parts of one of the best are available on-line:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch04.pdf

Skip down to table 4.3b for Lb. and inch units - 4.3a is for
metric-thinkers.

That sort-of confirms my gut, but my gut is wrong depending on species
of oak (the red that's common here is weaker in compression parallel to
grain than sugar maple (which is aka hard maple). But if you can find
some black locust you're in who-hoo land!

In any case, if your figure of 3500PSI is correct, many woods will do
(and probably more than once) IF the load is primarily taken parallel to
the grain (ie, on end-grain). Live oak appears to be the best bet for
side-grain loading (in US woods). There must be some side loading in
punching a 6 inch disk with a 2.5-3 inch punch, to form the sides. The
die might benefit from hoops or pipe clamps to restrain it from
splitting.

Lingnumvitae (steel might be cheaper) and Ipe look worth investigating
for imported woods. Ipe is becoming common as deck material.


Probably Steve Russell has all ready done an exhaustive study on such a
thing. Probably while at the same time composing a new movie score,
re-engineering the W-88 warhead, developing a peace plan for the Middle
East, etc. *G*

Leif

I think that I agree with the white oak, locust, sugar maple, or maybe
osage orange, but the osage isn't always easy to find. Perhaps even
hickory. You may want to orient it so that you are pressing into end
grain (better for compression), and have some hose clamps or other
straps around it to prevent splitting.
robo hippy
Leif Thorvaldson wrote:
Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
"Charles Friedman" wrote:

The size of the piece would be a cylinder of 2.5 inches diameter and a length
of 5 inches. The working end of the punch would have a rounded flat bottom
(radius of 3/16 inch) and could also be spherical (diameter of 2.5 inches) or
bullet shape or a taper.

My initial gut reaction is that hard maple would do better than oak. My
second reaction is that actual numbers are available in reference books.
Parts of one of the best are available on-line:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch04.pdf

Skip down to table 4.3b for Lb. and inch units - 4.3a is for
metric-thinkers.

That sort-of confirms my gut, but my gut is wrong depending on species
of oak (the red that's common here is weaker in compression parallel to
grain than sugar maple (which is aka hard maple). But if you can find
some black locust you're in who-hoo land!

In any case, if your figure of 3500PSI is correct, many woods will do
(and probably more than once) IF the load is primarily taken parallel to
the grain (ie, on end-grain). Live oak appears to be the best bet for
side-grain loading (in US woods). There must be some side loading in
punching a 6 inch disk with a 2.5-3 inch punch, to form the sides. The
die might benefit from hoops or pipe clamps to restrain it from
splitting.

Lingnumvitae (steel might be cheaper) and Ipe look worth investigating
for imported woods. Ipe is becoming common as deck material.


Probably Steve Russell has all ready done an exhaustive study on such a
thing. Probably while at the same time composing a new movie score,
re-engineering the W-88 warhead, developing a peace plan for the Middle
East, etc. *G*

Leif

Thanks for the web reference on the strength of different wood species. I
think that the easy winners are oak and maple.

The use of the hydraulic press forming technique allows one to rapidly
achieve a vessel form which can then be customized by hammering, forming,
spinning, etc.

Charles Friedman

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:05:47 -0400, Charles Friedman
wrote:

Thanks for the web reference on the strength of different wood species.
I
think that the easy winners are oak and maple.


If you can get scrap pallets from Brazil (the automakers ship from there)
you may be able to get hold of as much tamarind as you can haul away.
IIRC, the compressive strength on it is roughly 3x that of oak. I DO know
that it hangs onto a nail for dear life!

If you are near the Detroit area (or willing to pay the UPS shipping
charge elsewhere) I can pass along a good sized chunk of it for you to
play with ... err, um 'tryout'.

If interested, reply here before we take it to email.

Bill



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Try some persimmon, that is some tough wood.
Glenn


Bill C wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:05:47 -0400, Charles Friedman
wrote:

Thanks for the web reference on the strength of different wood species.
I
think that the easy winners are oak and maple.


If you can get scrap pallets from Brazil (the automakers ship from there)
you may be able to get hold of as much tamarind as you can haul away.
IIRC, the compressive strength on it is roughly 3x that of oak. I DO know
that it hangs onto a nail for dear life!

If you are near the Detroit area (or willing to pay the UPS shipping
charge elsewhere) I can pass along a good sized chunk of it for you to
play with ... err, um 'tryout'.

If interested, reply here before we take it to email.

Bill



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Hey Glenn, judging by what's happened to some good threads lately, I
figure some turners may have tried to eat a green persimmon.

Thanks Charles for introducing a new (for me) alternative to spinning
for making open form copper vessels. A technique to think about
combining with woodturning or just to know about. The responses led to
some good info re strength of the woods we turn.

Not sure re their compression resistance, but dry pecan and dry
Australian pine aren't weaklings.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Charles Friedman" wrote in message
et...
Thanks for the web reference on the strength of different wood species. I
think that the easy winners are oak and maple.

The use of the hydraulic press forming technique allows one to rapidly
achieve a vessel form which can then be customized by hammering, forming,
spinning, etc.

Charles Friedman
============================

Don't know what part of the country you're in, but if you're in the
southwest, then mesquite should be easy to locate. Mesquite is considered a
nuisance plant to ranchers, so it is usually free for the hauling. It is
about 50 % denser than the oak family, and very close grained. It is also
very stable dimensionally. Sounds like your project and it would be a good
match.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Ken - get some BLACK LOCUST, a second to osage orange in hardness. I
saw some today on Ebay. Not a common lumber but it will turn well with
sharp tools. The chap on Ebay had cants 2-3/4 x 3" about 42 inches long
at a reasonable price. Blocks coule be bolted together to attain larger
sizes. Search for "black locust lumber". Double check the specs on
hardness, but I think you will find the Black locust much harder than
hickory or rock maple. The only question I would have is durability
with repeated pressings. Fine details may wear away. Jim

Update:

Last Friday I picked up my punch and die set up from the machine shop.
Yesterday the copper arrived and last nite the trial run. The set up worked
perfectly. I had to wing it on some of the die dimensions but it worked.
Now tonight off to the community college machine shop course to do a high
polish on the parts. I will also try some wood punches later this week.

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea (one hour north of LA on the Pacific)