Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters.

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  #1   Report Post  
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Dave W
 
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Default Alcohol Drying

I've seen several questions lately regarding drying with alcohol.
Here is a link to Dave Smith's website. Dave is the guy that
developed the method.

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/



  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying


"Dave W" wrote in message
...
I've seen several questions lately regarding drying with alcohol.
Here is a link to Dave Smith's website. Dave is the guy that
developed the method.

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/



Warning : It's really fairly painful for anyone who knows chemistry or wood
science to read some of the incredibly foolish assumptions made by the
author.

All the testimonials in the world won't convince me that the Q-Ray does ...
what is it it does, anyway? http://www.qray.com/


  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
WillR
 
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Default Alcohol Drying


George wrote:
"Dave W" wrote in message
...
I've seen several questions lately regarding drying with alcohol.
Here is a link to Dave Smith's website. Dave is the guy that
developed the method.

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/



Warning : It's really fairly painful for anyone who knows chemistry or wood
science to read some of the incredibly foolish assumptions made by the
author.

All the testimonials in the world won't convince me that the Q-Ray does ...
what is it it does, anyway? http://www.qray.com/


George:

A couple of the bracelets thrown in with the wooden bowl blank and it
works like a hot dam. Thanks for the tip!

Whoodathunkit!

Actually Alcohol is used in the pulp industry...
http://www.evc.com.au/enviro_paperproblems.html
http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefi...ulp_paper.html


Organosolv pulping
Pulping process, which uses organic solvent, e.g. acid or alcohol, as
delignification/cooking chemical.
http://www.chempolis.com/terms.html


Not sure he has the science right, (exploding cells et al.) but if it
works, buy a bracelet, grin and bear it.

---
willr
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

  #4   Report Post  
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Fred Holder
 
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Default Alcohol Drying

It is always painful to me to see you tell everyone that alchol drying simply
will not work. The alcohol drying system as Dave Smith lays it out does work and
the wood dries quicker and with less warping and almost no cracking. I'm not a
wood expert or a chemist so I'm not kept from using a good method. I hate to see
you turn away newcomers with your superior quotes.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article , George says...


"Dave W" wrote in message
...
I've seen several questions lately regarding drying with alcohol.
Here is a link to Dave Smith's website. Dave is the guy that
developed the method.

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/



Warning : It's really fairly painful for anyone who knows chemistry or wood
science to read some of the incredibly foolish assumptions made by the
author.

All the testimonials in the world won't convince me that the Q-Ray does ...
what is it it does, anyway? http://www.qray.com/



  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
Mike Paulson
 
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Default Alcohol Drying

Repost:
I read about that 10 years ago in an article about Rude Osolnik in
American Woodturner (vol. 10, no. 1, mar 1995, p7). If it worked for
Rude, that's a powerful recommendation.
-mike paulson, fort collins, co



  #6   Report Post  
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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying


"Fred Holder" wrote in message
...
It is always painful to me to see you tell everyone that alchol drying
simply
will not work. The alcohol drying system as Dave Smith lays it out does
work and
the wood dries quicker and with less warping and almost no cracking. I'm
not a
wood expert or a chemist so I'm not kept from using a good method. I hate
to see
you turn away newcomers with your superior quotes.



I, on the other hand, hate to see people wasting time and money doing
unnecessary things. Leave out the alcohol and do the rest for the same
results.

I suggested a proper experimental procedure to verify any claims the last
time you were promoting it for your magazine. Have you tried it yet? I
know that Dave hasn't.

Of course, if the soak, as the Q-Ray, makes you feel better in some
unspecified (anyone find any specifics ?) way, do it.


http://www.fholder.com

In article , George says...



All the testimonials in the world won't convince me that the Q-Ray does
...
what is it it does, anyway? http://www.qray.com/





  #7   Report Post  
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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying


"Mike Paulson" wrote in message
...
Repost:
I read about that 10 years ago in an article about Rude Osolnik in
American Woodturner (vol. 10, no. 1, mar 1995, p7). If it worked for
Rude, that's a powerful recommendation.
-mike paulson, fort collins, co


You mean Dave plagiarized it?

I have given both you and Fred a lot of material to examine, and a
suggestion of how to perform a meaningful evaluation, along with my results.
Experimental data, the chemists and the wood technologists are also powerful
recommendations. Especially when they involve objective, not subjective
evaluation.



  #8   Report Post  
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Arch
 
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Default Alcohol Drying (long & dessicant)

Recent government studies provide a diffusing effect for this thread and
show that most green logs can be effectively dried by merely removing
dihydrogen monoxide, the metabolic end product of its two inorganic
precursors, shackled hydrogen and free oxygen. These chemicals, a
combination of which is found abundantly in the cellulose of most all
green logs is generally food safe, but ingesting large quantities or
inhaling this substance can have multiple adverse effects and it should
be disposed of promptly in water tight containers.

The chemical formula for its aquous organic state looks a lot like third
order hexagonal chicken wire, and when wrapped and squeezed around a
green log has a bark removing and even a mild drying effect on green
timber.

As with most of the drying methods suggested here, further work should
be done as dihydrogen monoxide and its organic cohabitant can convert
the new powdered steels to a watered down oxide that discolors artful
turnings and destroys costly gouges.

It has also been shown empirically that in humans, chronic use of some
alcohols has an unintended opposite effect than has been reported on rcw
for wood. Surprisingly, alcohol can actually be a wetting agent in some
humans, producing an old soak effect that may require drying out.

Here's to ya! or as we used to say so thoughtlessly, "HTH".


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

  #9   Report Post  
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Greg Lyman
 
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Default Alcohol Drying (long & dessicant)

Wow! You think that DHM could be as dangerous as Hydrogen Hydroxide?
Perhaps George could enlighten the group further being the expert he is.

Greg


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Recent government studies provide a diffusing effect for this thread and
show that most green logs can be effectively dried by merely removing
dihydrogen monoxide, the metabolic end product of its two inorganic
precursors, shackled hydrogen and free oxygen. These chemicals, a
combination of which is found abundantly in the cellulose of most all
green logs is generally food safe, but ingesting large quantities or
inhaling this substance can have multiple adverse effects and it should
be disposed of promptly in water tight containers.

The chemical formula for its aquous organic state looks a lot like third
order hexagonal chicken wire, and when wrapped and squeezed around a
green log has a bark removing and even a mild drying effect on green
timber.

As with most of the drying methods suggested here, further work should
be done as dihydrogen monoxide and its organic cohabitant can convert
the new powdered steels to a watered down oxide that discolors artful
turnings and destroys costly gouges.

It has also been shown empirically that in humans, chronic use of some
alcohols has an unintended opposite effect than has been reported on rcw
for wood. Surprisingly, alcohol can actually be a wetting agent in some
humans, producing an old soak effect that may require drying out.

Here's to ya! or as we used to say so thoughtlessly, "HTH".


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



  #10   Report Post  
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Brian C
 
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Default Alcohol Drying (long & dessicant)

Are you aware of the hazards of DiHydrogen Monoxide?

More than 90% of ALL crimes were committed within 24 hours of using
DHM.
Many acids are more powerful with the addition of DHM.
Most drugs use DHM in production or processing.
DHM is present in many poisons.
Once someone has used DHM, even once, they become addicted for life -
requiring fixes of as much as 32 ounces a day, or more.

Help stamp out DHM abuse!

Sorry, couldn't help myself, I'm a DHM user.



  #16   Report Post  
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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying


"WillR" wrote in message
oups.com...
Organosolv pulping
Pulping process, which uses organic solvent, e.g. acid or alcohol, as
delignification/cooking chemical.
http://www.chempolis.com/terms.html


Not sure he has the science right, (exploding cells et al.) but if it
works, buy a bracelet, grin and bear it.



Yep, alcohol is used to _dehydrate_ cells for histological examination, too.
Note, this is not drying.

In these cases you reference, of course, alcohol is chosen as a solvent for
lignin because cellulose does not bind it as it does water, and it can
therefore be used as a solvent within a solvent. Your make the case well
that it "displaces" no water, which is one of the many incorrect
suppositions in the process as posted.


  #17   Report Post  
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Derek Andrews
 
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Default Alcohol Drying

George wrote:
Yep, alcohol is used to _dehydrate_ cells for histological examination, too.
Note, this is not drying.


As I understand it, dehydration is a chemical process, drying is a
physical one. Does it matter to the wood how the water is removed?

On another note, what are the environmental costs of using alcohol? Does
it evaporate and cause local hazards? Does the solution eventually need
to be disposed of?


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners








  #18   Report Post  
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George
 
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Default Alcohol Drying


"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
George wrote:
Yep, alcohol is used to _dehydrate_ cells for histological examination,
too. Note, this is not drying.


As I understand it, dehydration is a chemical process, drying is a
physical one. Does it matter to the wood how the water is removed?


No, dehydration by alcohol is pretty much a mechanical process. Alcohol and
water will mix in any proportion, so soaking wet wood in alcohol long enough
to get complete mixing would result in a dilute solution of (pick one)
alcohol or water. The solution is discarded, replaced with undiluted
alcohol, and the process repeated. Picture two partial buckets of sand, one
white, one black. Dump equal white into the black, mix thoroughly, take
away half. There's only half as much black as there used to be. Add white,
discard half of that, and so forth until the proportions are where you want
them.

Been a while since lab, but seems there were three or four dilutions on
fixed specimens back when. Of course those were some pretty thin samples,
so fifteen-minute soak cycle was pretty meaningful. What was removed was
the equivalent of "unbound" water in wood.

The water that needs removing from wood is the "bound" water. That's
chemically bonded to the sugars that make up the hemi/cellulose - hydrogen
bonds. You have to get enough energy into the process to break up the
association - low relative humidity or other methods of increasing molecular
energy levels, like warming, or both, are the traditional. Dilute with air
rather than alcohol, as it were. Easier to discard the air, too.

Chemical processes to disrupt the H bonds would involve something more
ionic. Probably something more unpleasant, like sulphuric acid.


  #19   Report Post  
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Greg Lyman
 
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Default Alcohol Drying

George, with your expert knowledge of chemistry and wood science perhaps you
could explain to the group how etOH can bind to HOH with no displacement
(differential densities considered). So if I fill a glass with water and
then pour in some etOH, it won't run over? Guess things work differently
where you live or perhaps displacement has more than one meaning.


"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"WillR" wrote in message
oups.com...
Organosolv pulping
Pulping process, which uses organic solvent, e.g. acid or alcohol, as
delignification/cooking chemical.
http://www.chempolis.com/terms.html


Not sure he has the science right, (exploding cells et al.) but if it
works, buy a bracelet, grin and bear it.



Yep, alcohol is used to _dehydrate_ cells for histological examination,
too. Note, this is not drying.

In these cases you reference, of course, alcohol is chosen as a solvent
for lignin because cellulose does not bind it as it does water, and it can
therefore be used as a solvent within a solvent. Your make the case well
that it "displaces" no water, which is one of the many incorrect
suppositions in the process as posted.



  #20   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
George
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alcohol Drying


"Greg Lyman" wrote in message
...
George, with your expert knowledge of chemistry and wood science perhaps
you could explain to the group how etOH can bind to HOH with no
displacement (differential densities considered). So if I fill a glass
with water and then pour in some etOH, it won't run over? Guess things
work differently where you live or perhaps displacement has more than one
meaning.


Eureka!

"Displace" is the word used in the soaking article. One of the definitions
of that word in my dictionary is "replace," which is close, but with the
sense of pushing aside, another definition, as well.

Whatever floats your boat.




  #21   Report Post  
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WillR
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alcohol Drying (long & dessicant)


Greg Lyman wrote:
Wow! You think that DHM could be as dangerous as Hydrogen Hydroxide?
Perhaps George could enlighten the group further being the expert he is.

Greg


I don't think that any scientist worth his salt would want to refute
Arch.

Some things a re better left alone.

---

willr
http://woodwork.pmccl.com



"Arch" wrote in message
...
Recent government studies provide a diffusing effect for this thread and
show that most green logs can be effectively dried by merely removing
dihydrogen monoxide, the metabolic end product of its two inorganic
precursors, shackled hydrogen and free oxygen. These chemicals, a
combination of which is found abundantly in the cellulose of most all
green logs is generally food safe, but ingesting large quantities or
inhaling this substance can have multiple adverse effects and it should
be disposed of promptly in water tight containers.

The chemical formula for its aquous organic state looks a lot like third
order hexagonal chicken wire, and when wrapped and squeezed around a
green log has a bark removing and even a mild drying effect on green
timber.

As with most of the drying methods suggested here, further work should
be done as dihydrogen monoxide and its organic cohabitant can convert
the new powdered steels to a watered down oxide that discolors artful
turnings and destroys costly gouges.

It has also been shown empirically that in humans, chronic use of some
alcohols has an unintended opposite effect than has been reported on rcw
for wood. Surprisingly, alcohol can actually be a wetting agent in some
humans, producing an old soak effect that may require drying out.

Here's to ya! or as we used to say so thoughtlessly, "HTH".


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings


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