"StealthUK" wrote in message
om

I've bought some Lidl stuff in the past as well. You'll find a lot of
stuff they are selling is **many times the exact same product* sold by
Screwfix or the sheds for much more money. Nothing wrong in saving
some money.

Aldi are selling the same level for 17 quid or so. Has anyone used
one/got one/heard from a friend who's neighbour has a cousin who met a
man in Butlins who got on a bus when a man who thought he saw one being
used was just getting off a bus of similar though not identical colour?

*A multiple of 1 to the nth degree, eh?***

**Superlative offer!

***A cunning device or a really special offer?

(NB
In this instance the term superlative offer in used in the context of a
semanticism****)

****I just made that word up*****

*****I think.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
;-)

Ah taken in the appropriate spirit, thanks.

Well, you're in good company - IMM.

--
*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The best tools do not guarantee the best job.

No but bad tools can guarantee a bad job!

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Why I don't know , when better cheaper cars are available, Look at
Toyota
and Honda.

ROFL!!!
ROFLMAO!!!

Speaking as someone who has owned a wide range of cars, including
Toyotas, Hondas and BMWs, and as someone who also does all their own car
work, I can tell you that the difference between BMWs and Toyotas/Hondas
is enormous, both in how they drive and how they are put together.

Exactly. BMW is inferior. All surveys and feedback is that Honda and
Toyota are the amongst the most reliable cars around. BMW is way down the
list.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:01:16 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

better cheaper chars are available, Look at Toyota
and Honda.

Do you do it on purpose?

No, the chras meant cars, a typo.

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:41:50 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:01:16 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

better cheaper chars are available, Look at Toyota
and Honda.

Do you do it on purpose?

No, the chras meant cars, a typo.

No, you dippy rollabout lardarse, I meant the random comments.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:42:42 +0100, "PJ"
strung together this:


The best tools do not guarantee the best job.

No but bad tools can guarantee a bad job!

Not quite, bad workmanship guarantees a bad job, whether you use bad
or good tools. ;-)
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:39:47 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
strung together this:

Aldi are selling the same level for 17 quid or so. Has anyone used
one/got one/heard from a friend who's neighbour has a cousin who met a
man in Butlins who got on a bus when a man who thought he saw one being
used was just getting off a bus of similar though not identical colour?

*A multiple of 1 to the nth degree, eh?***

**Superlative offer!

***A cunning device or a really special offer?

(NB
In this instance the term superlative offer in used in the context of a
semanticism****)

****I just made that word up*****

*****I think.

Have you been drinking by any chance?
Anyway, I've got a cheap laser level, its not bad if you know what
you're doing with it. Tripods a bit unstable but with a little care
you can get it to do a straight line.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

Grunff wrote in message ...
IMM wrote:

Why I don't know , when better cheaper chars are available, Look at Toyota
and Honda.

ROFL!!!
ROFLMAO!!!

Speaking as someone who has owned a wide range of cars, including
Toyotas, Hondas and BMWs, and as someone who also does all their own car
work, I can tell you that the difference between BMWs and Toyotas/Hondas
is enormous, both in how they drive and how they are put together.


I hate to continue this thread :-)...but

I've owned and worked on a wide range of cars as well and IMO
eventhough BMW cars are well put together their reliability is
overrated. Japanese engines can take far more abuse than BMW engines
and last longer. The only positive I'll give BMW is that the bodywork
isn't made of tin foil, but the same can apply to Vauxhall!

PJ wrote:

The best tools do not guarantee the best job.

No but bad tools can guarantee a bad job!

No they can't.
Bad tools that you don't know, or are incapable of finding out are bad
they are can.
'Bad' tools can be of use if you know their limits.
A worn screwdriver is a lot better than no screwdriver at all, and
will often work fine, as long as you push hard enough so that it
won't cam out.
A laser level where the beam isn't properly aligned to its base can be used
if you know the fault, even if you can't fix it.
No, it's not as easy to use bad tools, but in many cases, you can leave
an extra few millimeters and finish off in other ways, or take a bit of extra
time working round the deficiencies in tools to end up with a good result.

Yes, it's nice to have perfect tools, but even with perfect tools, you have
to know their limits.

Even the best screwdriver won't grip the screw much harder than the
average, or live long if you habitually let it burr screws.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:41:50 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:01:16 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

better cheaper chars are available, Look at Toyota
and Honda.

Do you do it on purpose?

No, the chras meant cars, a typo.

No, you dippy rollabout lardarse,


Mr Pole! Please refrain!

I meant the random comments.

Bean, poignant comments my boy.


--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

"StealthUK" wrote in message
om...
Grunff wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Why I don't know , when better cheaper chars are available, Look at
Toyota
and Honda.

ROFL!!!
ROFLMAO!!!

Speaking as someone who has owned a wide range of cars, including
Toyotas, Hondas and BMWs, and as someone who also does all their own car
work, I can tell you that the difference between BMWs and Toyotas/Hondas
is enormous, both in how they drive and how they are put together.


I hate to continue this thread :-)...but

I've owned and worked on a wide range of cars as well and IMO
eventhough BMW cars are well put together their reliability is
overrated. Japanese engines can take far more abuse than BMW engines
and last longer. The only positive I'll give BMW is that the bodywork
isn't made of tin foil, but the same can apply to Vauxhall!

The current crop of Honda and Toyota have tinfoil bodies? Please get real.
The latest Toyota ads are highlighting the solidity and quietness of the
cars. Neighbours have a 10 year old Honda, that is parked outside and looks
about 1 year old. No major breakdowns and still glides along. 5 years ago
they were considering selling it, but it just kept going and drove like new,
so why sell?

In article ,
StealthUK wrote:
I've owned and worked on a wide range of cars as well and IMO
eventhough BMW cars are well put together their reliability is
overrated.

By whom? I hate to agree with IMM, but BMW aren't - and never were the
very most reliable cars, statistics wise.

But then many want a car that's enjoyable to drive - not just reliable.

Japanese engines can take far more abuse than BMW engines.

That's rather a sweeping statement. BMW are recognised as one of the
finest engine makers in the world. And an engine which can take abuse
doesn't make it a good design.

and last longer.

Hmm. Most engines blow up these days rather than wear out. And a common
cause is a broken cam belt. BMW doesn't use these anymore. Other than
that, I'd love to know where you get your statistics from.

The only positive I'll give BMW is that the bodywork
isn't made of tin foil, but the same can apply to Vauxhall!

No car is or ever was made of tinfoil.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Toby
writes

Wasn't tempted by the "Eruption" aftershave either.

Damn. Beer all over my monitor.

To compound things, seeing as I was in Leeds I thought I'd go to Ikea - on a
Saturday.

Tsk. Bad move. At least you can see Ikea Warrington's car park from
the M62, so can decide whether it's worth turning off and
waiting/fighting the shellsuited crowds or just carrying on.

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"Even I beat up on kids who use 'Porplies'", mutters 'I hate them so much'

2 points if you know who said that.

Arthur

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , Toby
writes

Wasn't tempted by the "Eruption" aftershave either.

Damn. Beer all over my monitor.

To compound things, seeing as I was in Leeds I thought I'd go to Ikea -
on a
Saturday.

Tsk. Bad move. At least you can see Ikea Warrington's car park from
the M62, so can decide whether it's worth turning off and
waiting/fighting the shellsuited crowds or just carrying on.

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:81e4ca0e212612edfd405068e42a97cc.45219@mygate .mailgate.org

As for Ferm tools: I was using one this week. The 32V hammer drill -not
SDS. After the first day when it went from fully charged but unused to
flat in less than a dozen holes into concrete I was able to use it all
day. Not a patch on an SDS but not an SDS.

I just bought a spare battery for it £20.

lidl are selling spare 18 volt batteries for their drills at £5 each.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Lurch theoriginallurch" Lurch wrote in message


Has anyone used
one/got one/heard from a friend who's neighbour has a cousin who met a
man in Butlins who got on a bus when a man who thought he saw one being
used was just getting off a bus of similar though not identical colour?

I've got a cheap laser level, its not bad if you know what
you're doing with it. Tripods a bit unstable but with a little care
you can get it to do a straight line.

What exactly do you use it for?




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:47:53 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
strung together this:

What exactly do you use it for?

Erm, levelling stuff!
Depends what I'm doing, comes in handy for anything over a longish
distance. I'm sure I could manage without it but it was £25 and I
thought it might come in handy for kitchens etc or retrofitting
equipment where long pencil lines on the wall are frowned upon
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:44:44 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:81e4ca0e212612edfd405068e42a97cc.45219@mygat e.mailgate.org

As for Ferm tools: I was using one this week. The 32V hammer drill -not
SDS. After the first day when it went from fully charged but unused to
flat in less than a dozen holes into concrete I was able to use it all
day. Not a patch on an SDS but not an SDS.

I just bought a spare battery for it £20.

lidl are selling spare 18 volt batteries for their drills at £5 each.

Are they rechargable?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message


Are they rechargable?

I have no idea. I always pay cash.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article , says...
IMM wrote:

But it certainly does not equate to day to day use in longevity. That should
be kept in mind.

Yes, but as has been pointed out many, many times in the past -
longevity is only one of the important properties. Performance and user
experience are at least as important. This is where cheap tools fall
down almost every time.


Availability of spares and service would come high on my list. Try
getting a widget for you McCulloch.

--
Paul Mc Cann

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...
In article ,
StealthUK wrote:
I've owned and worked on a wide range of cars as well and IMO
eventhough BMW cars are well put together their reliability is
overrated.

By whom? I hate to agree with IMM, but BMW aren't - and never were the
very most reliable cars, statistics wise.

I said their reliability is overrated! Well put together does not mean
they are reliable.

But then many want a car that's enjoyable to drive - not just reliable.

Japanese engines can take far more abuse than BMW engines.

That's rather a sweeping statement. BMW are recognised as one of the
finest engine makers in the world. And an engine which can take abuse
doesn't make it a good design.

No, it's IME as is every post on this NG. I didn't say anything about
good engine design, I said Japanese engines can take more abuse.


and last longer.

Hmm. Most engines blow up these days rather than wear out. And a common
cause is a broken cam belt. BMW doesn't use these anymore. Other than
that, I'd love to know where you get your statistics from.

It's IME again. Where do you get your statistics from that most
engines blow up (and mainly from Cambelt failure) rather than wear
out?


The only positive I'll give BMW is that the bodywork
isn't made of tin foil, but the same can apply to Vauxhall!

No car is or ever was made of tinfoil.

Now, you are joking, right? If you really believed I meant they were
ACTUALLY made of tin foil then you must be high on something. I was
referring to the thickness of the sheet metal used on the panels.

It's a shame, Dave, because you're normally one of the better
contributors on this NG.

"StealthUK" wrote in message
om...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
StealthUK wrote:
I've owned and worked on a wide range of cars as well and IMO
eventhough BMW cars are well put together their reliability is
overrated.

By whom? I hate to agree with IMM, but BMW aren't - and never were the
very most reliable cars, statistics wise.

I said their reliability is overrated! Well put together does not mean
they are reliable.

But then many want a car that's enjoyable to drive - not just reliable.

Japanese engines can take far more abuse than BMW engines.

That's rather a sweeping statement. BMW are recognised as one of the
finest engine makers in the world.

So are Honda.

And an engine which can take abuse
doesn't make it a good design.

No, it's IME as is every post on this NG. I didn't say anything about
good engine design, I said Japanese engines can take more abuse.


and last longer.

Hmm. Most engines blow up these days
rather than wear out. And a common
cause is a broken cam belt.

Toyota engines can't blow when the belt fails.

BMW doesn't use these anymore. Other than
that, I'd love to know where you get your statistics from.

It's IME again. Where do you get your statistics from that most
engines blow up (and mainly from Cambelt failure) rather than wear
out?

He made them up.

The only positive I'll give BMW is that the bodywork
isn't made of tin foil, but the same can apply to Vauxhall!

No car is or ever was made of tinfoil.

Now, you are joking, right? If you really believed I meant they were
ACTUALLY made of tin foil then you must be high on something. I was
referring to the thickness of the sheet metal used on the panels.

It's a shame, Dave, because you're normally one of the better
contributors on this NG.

He is? You haven't been here long then have you?

In article ,
StealthUK wrote:
By whom? I hate to agree with IMM, but BMW aren't - and never were the
very most reliable cars, statistics wise.

I said their reliability is overrated! Well put together does not mean
they are reliable.

I asked overrated by whom? The various surveys - JD, Which, etc have never
had them at the top of the list.

But then many want a car that's enjoyable to drive - not just reliable.

Japanese engines can take far more abuse than BMW engines.

That's rather a sweeping statement. BMW are recognised as one of the
finest engine makers in the world. And an engine which can take abuse
doesn't make it a good design.

No, it's IME as is every post on this NG. I didn't say anything about
good engine design, I said Japanese engines can take more abuse.

All Japanese engines? Think that's rather a sweeping statement too. And
what do you mean by abuse? Letting them run out of oil? Water? Driving
them hard from cold?


and last longer.

Hmm. Most engines blow up these days rather than wear out. And a common
cause is a broken cam belt. BMW doesn't use these anymore. Other than
that, I'd love to know where you get your statistics from.

It's IME again. Where do you get your statistics from that most
engines blow up (and mainly from Cambelt failure) rather than wear
out?

By the fact you'll not now find a machine shop that can do re-bores and
crank grinds in every town - most engines will last as long as the car,
unless as I said they get damaged.

My statistics aren't accurate, but based on the many posts you'll get on
the car groups - broken cam belts are one of the most common serious
engine problems - about the same as blown head gaskets. Ones about
excessive oil consumption etc denoting a worn engine are rare.


The only positive I'll give BMW is that the bodywork
isn't made of tin foil, but the same can apply to Vauxhall!

No car is or ever was made of tinfoil.

Now, you are joking, right? If you really believed I meant they were
ACTUALLY made of tin foil then you must be high on something. I was
referring to the thickness of the sheet metal used on the panels.

It was a fatuous statement that demanded a fatuous answer. The thickness
of the steel used has never had anything to do with the quality of a car -
ever. The quality of the steel, yes. And many these days have varying
thickness on the panels anyway to further compound the fallacy.

It's a shame, Dave, because you're normally one of the better
contributors on this NG.

If you don't like BMWs, you are perfectly entitled to your view. But if
you try and justify it by talking rubbish, be prepared to be argued with.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Hmm. Most engines blow up these days
rather than wear out. And a common
cause is a broken cam belt.

Toyota engines can't blow when the belt fails.


All their engines are non-interference types? I find that very hard to
believe. But then you probably didn't understand the point.

--
*Who is this General Failure chap anyway - and why is he reading my HD? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

I asked overrated by whom? The various surveys - JD, Which, etc have never
had them at the top of the list.

Overrated by Joe public, that's who.

But then many want a car that's enjoyable to drive - not just reliable.

I never made any points about Japanese cars being more enjoyable to
drive.

All Japanese engines? Think that's rather a sweeping statement too. And
what do you mean by abuse? Letting them run out of oil? Water? Driving
them hard from cold?

Okay, maybe not every Japanese engine but I'll include Mazda, Toyota,
Nissan and Honda. Yes, abuse as in driving the engines hard and
neglect (low oil, overheated etc). Japanese engines, in my book, will
survive far more abuse. I NEVER said BMW engines were not well
designed or anything else you are placing in my mouth.


By the fact you'll not now find a machine shop that can do re-bores and
crank grinds in every town - most engines will last as long as the car,
unless as I said they get damaged.

That means absolutely nothing. The value of cars has dropped
tremendously and labour charges are higher than ever. If your engine
packs up then it is far cheaper to just buy another car or get an
engine from a breaker's yard. It's just not economical to have an
engine rebuilt these days.


My statistics aren't accurate, but based on the many posts you'll get on
the car groups - broken cam belts are one of the most common serious
engine problems - about the same as blown head gaskets. Ones about
excessive oil consumption etc denoting a worn engine are rare.

Oh, so you've now decided to mention head gaskets as well? Well, I
check the car groups as well and there are hardly any posts on
cambelts breaking - most are about electronic failures. Regardless,
people post on there to get advice on how to repair their vehicles or
how much it would cost, mainly. Those groups are not for people to
give an ongoing report on how their vehicles are performing. If
someone is burning oil on an old car and there is blue smoke pouring
out the back do you really think they are going to bother posting on a
NG about it? The car is most likely not worth squat or worth bothering
about. Anyhow this has nothing to with my original post.


If you don't like BMWs, you are perfectly entitled to your view. But if
you try and justify it by talking rubbish, be prepared to be argued with.

I never said I didn't like BMWs. You've provided no argument at all.
My original point was that, IME, Japanese engines can take far more
abuse than BMW engines. This has nothing to do with how long modern
engines last these days. All you've done is misinterpreted my post and
then argued against points that I didn't even make.

"StealthUK" wrote in message
om...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

I asked overrated by whom? The various surveys - JD, Which, etc have
never
had them at the top of the list.

Overrated by Joe public, that's who.

But then many want a car that's enjoyable to drive - not just
reliable.

I never made any points about
Japanese cars being more enjoyable to
drive.

But they are.

All Japanese engines? Think that's rather a sweeping statement too. And
what do you mean by abuse? Letting them run out of oil? Water? Driving
them hard from cold?

Okay, maybe not every Japanese engine but I'll include Mazda, Toyota,
Nissan and Honda. Yes, abuse as in driving the engines hard and
neglect (low oil, overheated etc). Japanese engines, in my book, will
survive far more abuse. I NEVER said BMW engines were not well
designed or anything else you are placing in my mouth.

By the fact you'll not now find a machine shop that can do re-bores and
crank grinds in every town - most engines will last as long as the car,
unless as I said they get damaged.

That means absolutely nothing. The value of cars has dropped
tremendously and labour charges are higher than ever. If your engine
packs up then it is far cheaper to just buy another car or get an
engine from a breaker's yard. It's just not economical to have an
engine rebuilt these days.


My statistics aren't accurate, but based on the many posts you'll get on
the car groups - broken cam belts are one of the most common serious
engine problems - about the same as blown head gaskets. Ones about
excessive oil consumption etc denoting a worn engine are rare.

Oh, so you've now decided to mention head gaskets as well? Well, I
check the car groups as well and there are hardly any posts on
cambelts breaking - most are about electronic failures. Regardless,
people post on there to get advice on how to repair their vehicles or
how much it would cost, mainly. Those groups are not for people to
give an ongoing report on how their vehicles are performing. If
someone is burning oil on an old car and there is blue smoke pouring
out the back do you really think they are going to bother posting on a
NG about it? The car is most likely not worth squat or worth bothering
about. Anyhow this has nothing to with my original post.


If you don't like BMWs, you are perfectly entitled to your view. But if
you try and justify it by talking rubbish, be prepared to be argued
with.

I never said I didn't like BMWs. You've provided no argument at all.
My original point was that, IME, Japanese engines can take far more
abuse than BMW engines. This has nothing to do with how long modern
engines last these days. All you've done is misinterpreted my post and
then argued against points that I didn't even make.

StealthUK wrote:

Oh, so you've now decided to mention head gaskets as well? Well, I
check the car groups as well and there are hardly any posts on
cambelts breaking - most are about electronic failures. Regardless,
people post on there to get advice on how to repair their vehicles or
how much it would cost, mainly. Those groups are not for people to
give an ongoing report on how their vehicles are performing. If
someone is burning oil on an old car and there is blue smoke pouring
out the back do you really think they are going to bother posting on a
NG about it? The car is most likely not worth squat or worth bothering
about. Anyhow this has nothing to with my original post.

Now you're /really/ talking crap...

--
Grunff

In article ,
StealthUK wrote:
I asked overrated by whom? The various surveys - JD, Which, etc have
never had them at the top of the list.

Overrated by Joe public, that's who.

Right, So you're the mouthpiece of the public, then? A relation of IMM,
perhaps? ;-)

Quote some recognised surveys, like JD etc, as a basis for discussion



But then many want a car that's enjoyable to drive - not just
reliable.

I never made any points about Japanese cars being more enjoyable to
drive.

I originally made the point that not all cars are equally enjoyable to
drive, and that this has a bearing on why some people buy them, regardless
of price and reliability. Same as with power tools.

All Japanese engines? Think that's rather a sweeping statement too.
And what do you mean by abuse? Letting them run out of oil? Water?
Driving them hard from cold?

Okay, maybe not every Japanese engine but I'll include Mazda, Toyota,
Nissan and Honda. Yes, abuse as in driving the engines hard and neglect
(low oil, overheated etc). Japanese engines, in my book, will survive
far more abuse. I NEVER said BMW engines were not well designed or
anything else you are placing in my mouth.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but to get out of it what you
actually mean.

You said:-

"Japanese engines can take far more abuse than BMW engines
and last longer."

By implication, there is something wrong with the design (and manufacture)
of BMW engines if any old cheap and nasty Japanese engine is by your words
better designed for the use (or abuse) it's likely to get.
And trying to find out what you mean by last longer.



By the fact you'll not now find a machine shop that can do re-bores
and crank grinds in every town - most engines will last as long as the
car, unless as I said they get damaged.

That means absolutely nothing. The value of cars has dropped
tremendously and labour charges are higher than ever. If your engine
packs up then it is far cheaper to just buy another car or get an engine
from a breaker's yard. It's just not economical to have an engine
rebuilt these days.

OK - I'll try again. Just how often do you come across *any* reasonable
car where the engine is worn out? At one time this happened perhaps
several times in the life of any car - many at under 50,000 miles. But
these days, near enough none. So engine failures are usually down to other
factors than pure wear - cambelts breaking or damage due to overheating,
both of which can be the end of the engine if the cost of repairing with
*new* parts is taken into account.

And *no* water cooled engine is immune from damage caused by overheating
through lack of water whatever the reason.


My statistics aren't accurate, but based on the many posts you'll get
on the car groups - broken cam belts are one of the most common
serious engine problems - about the same as blown head gaskets. Ones
about excessive oil consumption etc denoting a worn engine are rare.

Oh, so you've now decided to mention head gaskets as well? Well, I check
the car groups as well and there are hardly any posts on cambelts
breaking - most are about electronic failures.

I've mentioned it as a cause of engine failure. Now you've moved on to
electronics. While of course these can cause engine failure, what has
'abuse' got to do with it now?

Regardless, people post on there to get advice on how to repair their
vehicles or how much it would cost, mainly. Those groups are not for
people to give an ongoing report on how their vehicles are performing.
If someone is burning oil on an old car and there is blue smoke pouring
out the back do you really think they are going to bother posting on a
NG about it? The car is most likely not worth squat or worth bothering
about. Anyhow this has nothing to with my original post.



If you don't like BMWs, you are perfectly entitled to your view. But
if you try and justify it by talking rubbish, be prepared to be argued
with.

I never said I didn't like BMWs. You've provided no argument at all. My
original point was that, IME, Japanese engines can take far more abuse
than BMW engines.

But have failed to say in which way, or to provide any evidence.

This has nothing to do with how long modern engines
last these days.

Do me a favour and explain what you mean by abuse, then, if it doesn't
effect the life of the engine? Are you, for example, saying that a BMW
engine will tell you in some way if you drive it hard that it doesn't like
it, while any Japanese engine doesn't?

All you've done is misinterpreted my post and then
argued against points that I didn't even make.

Perhaps you need to make the points you mean to get across rather less
general?

--
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
I never made any points about
Japanese cars being more enjoyable to
drive.

But they are.

Last time you mentioned the car you drove, it was a Volvo estate. The case
rests.

--
*Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
I never made any points about
Japanese cars being more enjoyable to
drive.

But they are.

Last time you mentioned the car you drove, it was a Volvo estate. The case
rests.



Oi! Don't knock Volvo estates - we love our V40!

Having said that, my Prelude is hell of a lot better car to drive (4 wheel
steer is a thing to experience) but it's just so damned impractical and
expensive to service. And insure. It's just got to go...


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

In article ,
RichardS noaccess@invalid wrote:
I never made any points about
Japanese cars being more enjoyable to
drive.

But they are.

Last time you mentioned the car you drove, it was a Volvo estate. The
case rests.

Oi! Don't knock Volvo estates - we love our V40!

I'm not. They're very useful vehicles. Just not quite the one you'd choose
for a thrash early on a sunny Sunday if you'd an M3 in the garage...

Having said that, my Prelude is hell of a lot better car to drive (4
wheel steer is a thing to experience) but it's just so damned
impractical and expensive to service. And insure. It's just got to
go...

But an engine that will take any sort of abuse.;-)

--
*Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
I never made any points about
Japanese cars being more enjoyable to
drive.

But they are.

Last time you mentioned the car you
drove, it was a Volvo estate. The case
rests.

He is confused as usual.

"Lurch" wrote in message

Anyway, I've got a cheap laser level, its not bad if you know what
you're doing with it. Tripods a bit unstable but with a little care
you can get it to do a straight line.


Mine came with one of the light splitters missing and it took some time to
align the system up. The bubble was not accurate and the laser was not
accurate between horizontal and vertical lines, but calibration took care of
all that.
As you say, if you know what you are doing, you can get a straight line from
them. Just remember to get the tripod stable and the rotating head solid and
you have a dependable laser beam.

Dave

Grunff wrote in message ...

Now you're /really/ talking crap...

Wow, that's a good argument.

StealthUK wrote:

Now you're /really/ talking crap...


Wow, that's a good argument.

About as good as yours...

--
Grunff

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

Right, So you're the mouthpiece of the public, then? A relation of IMM,
perhaps? ;-)

No, it's called having an opinion. I presume you back up everyone one
of your opinions with surveys and the rest of it on NGs?

Quote some recognised surveys, like JD etc, as a basis for discussion

Well, the JD Power survey backs my opinion, but that doesn't mean that
the public perception of reliability corresponds with their survey. In
a poll, 41% of Americans believed WMD had been found in Iraq, what
does that tell you?

I originally made the point that not all cars are equally enjoyable to
drive, and that this has a bearing on why some people buy them, regardless
of price and reliability. Same as with power tools.

Compare Japanese cars like the Type-r range of Hondas, Nissan 350Z
etc. to an equivalent BMW in price. All you'll get from a BMW in that
price will be a run of the mill car. I know which one I'd rather have.
There are many reasons why people choose to buy a BMW rather than a
Japanese car, image primarily, but certainly not because they are more
enjoyable* to drive.

* dependent on what you classify as enjoyment, of course.

The End.

From: Paul Mc Cann:

Availability of spares and service would come high on my list. Try
getting a widget for you McCulloch.

Since a new cheap tool is generally cheaper than the repacement widget
this is a non issue. In fact it is an advatntage for the cheaper tool:
no waiting around for it to get repaired, no drive to the repair
place, no hassle over the guarantee.


PJ wrote:

No but bad tools can guarantee a bad job!

Cheap doesnt necessarily equal bad. Once familiar with tools one can
assess whats good and what isnt. There are some cheapies that are
fine, and some that are total junk.


and:

So surely if you are aiming to achieve a good job you will need the best
tools you can get/afford?

no. I've done many things in situations where I didnt have much in the
way of tools available, and one can do a perfectly good job with all
sorts of crap tools or improvisation. Light bulbs can be used to
measure V and i, a piece of card and a pin makes a perfectly effective
level, screwdrivers can become oil filter wrenches and so on. Quality
of job can be just as good. Also one can in some cases get bad tools
and make them good, eg woodchisels with a poor grind.


From: Dave Plowman (News)

Also, they're never as nice to use. Poorer balance, less tactile controls,
and not as accurate. A bit like comparing cars. All cars will get you from
A to B at reasonable comfort, but some are much more pleasant to drive
than others.

But this doesnt consistently relate to price. Often does, sometimes
not.


From: Michael Mcneil:

Being in the trade and using these things regularly I would still like
to know why a 4' level costs £44 and a 2' level cost me £17.

Smalller sales volume, same setup costs...


PJ wrote:
Buy cheap - buy again. When will people learn!

Sometimes true, sometimes not. And sometimes not the most significant.
Capital outlay matters for a lot of people too.


Regards, NT

In article ,
StealthUK wrote:
Right, So you're the mouthpiece of the public, then? A relation of IMM,
perhaps? ;-)

No, it's called having an opinion.

But you said it was public opinion, not just yours. Or was that just
another opinion?

I presume you back up everyone one
of your opinions with surveys and the rest of it on NGs?

I hope I'd be careful not to make such sweeping statements.

Quote some recognised surveys, like JD etc, as a basis for discussion

Well, the JD Power survey backs my opinion,

That *all* Japanese engines are more 'abuse proof' than BMW? I think
you'll find it doesn't.

but that doesn't mean that
the public perception of reliability corresponds with their survey.

Again, you appear to be speaking for 'the public'. It's a worrying trait...

In a poll, 41% of Americans believed WMD had been found in Iraq, what
does that tell you?

It tells me you're trying to introduce red herrings. 4% is a tiny
proportion.

I originally made the point that not all cars are equally enjoyable to
drive, and that this has a bearing on why some people buy them,
regardless of price and reliability. Same as with power tools.

Compare Japanese cars like the Type-r range of Hondas, Nissan 350Z
etc. to an equivalent BMW in price.

You're moving the goalposts again. I'm still waiting for reasonable proof
about your assertion about the bomb proof abilities of all Japanese
engines - not a discussion about the relative merits of individual models.
Which is a personal choice thing. I'm perfectly willing to debate that
after you've justified your first statement, though. ;-)

All you'll get from a BMW in that
price will be a run of the mill car.

A run of the mill car which happens to be RWD, which is rather unusual if
not unique in its class, and which is why it's nice to drive...

I know which one I'd rather have.

Your choice. You might not be so pleased when you come to sell, though.

There are many reasons why people choose to buy a BMW rather than a
Japanese car, image primarily, but certainly not because they are more
enjoyable* to drive.

Now we're getting close to your *real* reason. Why didn't you just say
this in the first place rather than making up stories?

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:24:56 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Toyota engines can't blow when the belt fails.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

--
Regards, Paul Herber, Paul Herber Systems Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/
SanDriLa - SDL/MSC/TTCN/UML2 application for Visio http://www.sandrila.pherber.com/
email address is spam-trapped - s/*@/paul@/