On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:26:27 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Vector Idol" wrote in message
.. .

Anyhow how come you can drink wine when you are freezing your ass off
while your bath fills?

Another spamming troll. He comes in out of nowhere. What company do you
represent?



What's up? Don't you like the competition?

Come to think of it, you only ever see one under a bridge, so I
suppose trolls are a territorial species....



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:26:27 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Vector Idol" wrote in message
.. .

Anyhow how come you can drink wine when you are freezing your ass off
while your bath fills?

Another spamming troll. He comes in out of nowhere. What company do you
represent?

What's up? Don't you like the competition?

Lord Hall, what is this competition you are on about?


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In article ,
"John Rumm" says...
Doctor Evil wrote:

Aldi and Lidl are huge. Look at the Aldi web site. There are in most Euro
countries, USA, Aus, etc. They have "big" buying power. Have a look at the
wines. ï½£3 for an award winning wine.

I appreciate they are big on a global scale, but the question was how
long have they been present in the UK? They certainly don't have
anything like the quantity or scale of outlets of any of the other
supermarkets / diy sheds as yet.

Aldi has been in the UK since the late 80s.

Share of Grocery Market:12 weeks to April 25 2004
Tesco 27.5%
Asda 16.6%
Sainsbury's 15.5%
Morrisons/Safeway 14.4%
Somerfield/Kwik Save 5.8%
Co-ops 5.1%
Waitrose 3.2%
Aldi 2.1%
Iceland 2%
Lidl 1.8%
Netto 0.6%
Budgens 0.4%

Doctor Evil wrote:

I appreciate they are big on a global scale, but the question was how
long have they been present in the UK? They certainly don't have
anything like the quantity or scale of outlets of any of the other
supermarkets / diy sheds as yet.


Note the words "buying power".

How does that answer the question?


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John.

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Rob Morley wrote:

Aldi has been in the UK since the late 80s.

Share of Grocery Market:12 weeks to April 25 2004
Tesco 27.5%
Asda 16.6%
Sainsbury's 15.5%
Morrisons/Safeway 14.4%
Somerfield/Kwik Save 5.8%
Co-ops 5.1%
Waitrose 3.2%
Aldi 2.1%
Iceland 2%
Lidl 1.8%
Netto 0.6%
Budgens 0.4%

Ah, that is more like it...

To go back to the original point, I don't see that Aldi et al can rest
on a "brand awareness" (or snobbery) argument as explanation for their
lack of market penetration. Let's face it, John Lewis have far more
credibility in this respect with Waitrose but still don't have
significant market share either.

The big buying power of the smaller players is important from the point
of view of keeping prices low, but UK consumers seem far more
sophisticated in this respect now, and long since gave up buying on
price alone. That used to be Tesco's model (pile high, sell cheap, don't
worry too much about the quality), but even they gave up on that idea by
the mid 60's (and started gaining market share when they did).

Aldi etc. are probably better off for qty of premises etc than the likes
of Tesco were after 15-20 years trading (in their current form). The
main difference however will be that they are trying to expand in a
market where there is stiff competition from entrenched players which is
rather different from the situation faced by the supermarket pioneers in
this country.

--
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John.

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wrote:
I don't think it's just snobbery - more like xenophobia. British
consumers don't like foreign packaging with funny words on. ...
The European budget conscious consumer is probably rather more
broadminded than the British one
Yes the French hardly consume anything French at all, they love food
from other countries!!

With the French it's probably more pride in their own local produce and
conviction that French is best, than xenophobia as such. Given the
choice of Polish or Czech (which is from where Lidl sources quite a lot)
real food, or Turkey Twizzlers, they'd choose the P or Cz. Silly
question really because I don't think Turkey Twizzlers exist in France.

I think you need to get out more Owain

It's kind of you to be concerned. However here at St Dympna's Home For
The Incurably Deranged we have a nice sun-lounge I can sit in on Wednesdays.

Owain

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
Another spamming troll. He comes in out of nowhere. What company do you
represent?



What's up? Don't you like the competition?

Come to think of it, you only ever see one under a bridge, so I
suppose trolls are a territorial species....


Don't tar me with his brush!! ;p




a

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...
I'm glad you shop there. Sounds like it's
just suited to your tastes.

I mainly shop at Fortnum and Mason.

Surprised they let you in the store without a responsible adult ...

The spammer is at it again....


Good comeback kiddo ... your wit astounds me ..





a

"Steve Firth" wrote in message

Ooooo no, you don't need Tesco, it's as relentlessly downmarket and
chav-oriented as Morrisons. The vegetables offered by Tesco are a
disgrace, chemically pickled by BOC Argoshield and delivered unripe. If
you try to ripen them they decay into mush.


Agree on the fruit & veg comment with Tesco's. But they're not too bad
otherwise (the big stores anyway).

The meat at Tesco is not fit for human consumption.

Not that Sainsbury's are much better.


I try not to buy packaged meat at all. Chicken with Tesco's Finest or
Sainsbury's lean stuff is ok. However steak, lamb and pork should be bought
from the meat counter or local butchers if at all possible!

Waitrose actually manage to sell produce worth eating.


Ahh ... yes they do. Nice food and nice staff. And my wife hates me
shopping there because it does land up costing quite a lot more than
Sainsbury's and without the tokens. I tend to wander up there when I'm
working from home at lunch time and come back with several bags full of
stuff instead of just sandwich ingredients!




a

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:56:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Pete C wrote:
I expect the Chinese have developed their own tooling, and are just
manufacturing what their customers (DIY chains, catalogue shops etc)
want, which is tools that are cheap but passably good.

Yes, but perhaps the majority are either impulse buys, or bought as
presents. And at the cheaper end, the majority of decent DIYers - IMHO -
will find them sadly lacking. If they persevere with them. I've lost count
of how many 'budget' tools I've bought only to replace them with decent
ones - after discovering just how useful a 'proper' one can be. Jigsaw,
router, compound mitre saw, cordless drill spring to mind.

As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary
action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a
lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition.

So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder,
drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre
saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though.

Budget tools are ideal what I'd call for 'beginner DIY', with some
care a good selection can be had for £100-150, which would be a lot
better than one 'pro' tool alone. They can they be replaced with
better ones over time as the need arises.

When starting out doing DIY the biggest time saving is finding out how
to do things the most efficient way I'd have thought, even if things
do take a bit longer with budget tools. Once this is realised, then
the limiting factor becomes the tools themselves, so upgrading them is
a good idea.

cheers,
Pete.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:33:49 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

I'd disagree with this, a product fills a 'need', then the market is
created by its price, for instance mobile phones.

No. Large organisations, the car industry is an example, have marketing
depts create desire and demand. The car industry is not technology driven,
so needs to create desire to sell outdated products. You never see a car
being sold on the latest leading edge technology, it is always image and
lifestyle, etc.

They are marketing *their* product, but the market for cars as a whole
was first realised by Henry Ford, who manufactured a car that
substantial numbers of people could afford.

cheers,
Pete.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary
action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a
lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition.

So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder,
drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre
saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though.

Interesting order. Agree with the first 3 or 4. But cheap jigsaws seem to
be a nightmare. Also, I would have thought that mid-range planers are
pretty good. Extra money bring lightweight and perhaps longevity.

I'm trying to buy a planer at the moment, having got sick to death of trying
to get a sensible cutting angle out of my "manual" plane (a bit too cheap me
thinks). Homebase (of all places!) have a Bosch PHO-1 (Green range) for
sale for about £35, which is reasonable, but I think at least last year's
model, if not older. I certainly don't want to spend more than £50. What
do you think? Folly or not ..?





a

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:49:11 GMT, "al"
wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message

Ooooo no, you don't need Tesco, it's as relentlessly downmarket and
chav-oriented as Morrisons. The vegetables offered by Tesco are a
disgrace, chemically pickled by BOC Argoshield and delivered unripe. If
you try to ripen them they decay into mush.


Agree on the fruit & veg comment with Tesco's. But they're not too bad
otherwise (the big stores anyway).

Especially their tomatos, which are hard and orange with green patches.
If you buy them they eventually become soft, and then liquify, without
at any stage getting any darker than a pale orange. Foul things.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:10:03 +0000, Pete C
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:56:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Pete C wrote:
I expect the Chinese have developed their own tooling, and are just
manufacturing what their customers (DIY chains, catalogue shops etc)
want, which is tools that are cheap but passably good.

Yes, but perhaps the majority are either impulse buys, or bought as
presents. And at the cheaper end, the majority of decent DIYers - IMHO -
will find them sadly lacking. If they persevere with them. I've lost count
of how many 'budget' tools I've bought only to replace them with decent
ones - after discovering just how useful a 'proper' one can be. Jigsaw,
router, compound mitre saw, cordless drill spring to mind.

As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary
action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a
lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition.




So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder,
drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre
saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though.


I take your point on things like angle grinders where the work isn't
precision anyway, although factors like failure of electrrical
components come into it.

With lateral action, I guess you're thinking of things like jigsaws
where rotary motion is converted to linear. On that I agree with you,
although I think a lot of the issue becomes the nature of the
application usually being finer work.

I'd probably put portable planers nearer the front of the list. There
seems to be less difference across the range and none of them are
really for precision applications by their nature.

Routers, although rotary and linear in nature, do need to be decent.
The low end ones have poor slide mechanisms and often underpowered
motors so are fairly limited.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

John Rumm wrote:
Aldi etc. are probably better off for qty of premises etc than the likes
of Tesco were after 15-20 years trading (in their current form). The
main difference however will be that they are trying to expand in a
market where there is stiff competition from entrenched players which is
rather different from the situation faced by the supermarket pioneers in
this country.

Aldi are also managing to survive in the US market with the same low
cost/overhead formula. No UK chain has managed this so far!

Regards
Capitol

IMM wrote

I mainly shop at Fortnum and Mason.

That's why he knows all about the range and quality of goods from
Morrisons and Aldi.

LOL

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


John Rumm wrote:
Aldi etc. are probably better off for qty of premises etc than the likes
of Tesco were after 15-20 years trading (in their current form). The main
difference however will be that they are trying to expand in a market
where there is stiff competition from entrenched players which is rather
different from the situation faced by the supermarket pioneers in this
country.

Aldi are also managing to survive in the US market with the same low
cost/overhead formula. No UK chain has managed this so far!

Pity that the UK chains are not as clever as the German Aldi chain who have
also managed to survive in the UK.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote

I mainly shop at Fortnum and Mason.

That's why he knows all about the range and quality of goods from
Morrisons and Aldi.

LOL

Well quite ... it's a well known fact that most F&M customers regularly buy
£3 bottles of wine from Morrison's!! ;o)

Chav through and through our poor Dr Pathetic/IMM/whatver ..




a

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"al" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...
********!! Near me the opposite occurred. The noticeable difference
was
the staff. Apparently they took Safeway staff out to courses on how to
be
customer friendly. Those who didn't the more regimented regime left.
Just
as well as some of them were slobs.

Well then you're a one off. I've been to lots of them and they've all
sucked IMO. You're entitled to your opinion, one which is normally
respected by nobody IMM.

Your is not just off mark, it is 180 degrees to my experience, which make
me
think you are a troll.

It would make me so happy if Morrison's
went bust and removed their stain
from the UK supermarket industry.

This sounds like spam, as it is totally against my experience I have of
Morrison's. You can even buy metal paint, 3-in-one -oil, fuses, the odd
tools, etc. All the every day things you need and cheap too. The wine
is
much cheaper than Safeway. What would be £5 is now £3.


What the hell difference does it make if there's DIY stuff there or not.

They cater for the things most people need.

If you want a one stop place, some of the
Tesco superstores does an incredible
stock. As for wine - why would you buy from
a supermarket instead of a wine
club unless you just needed a quick bottle?

A wine club? Total ********! They give a few decent wines and throw a
load
of crap in too.

Can't say I've ever looked at
wine in Safeway's - it's local to
work, not home for me.

Morrison's are very good for wines. Cheap but not nasty. Aldi's award
wining stuff, see their web site, is even better.


Typical that most people who knock Morrisons and Aldi have never used them,
We shop at Morrisons and Aldi on a regular basis, but previous to Morrisons
being there we used Tesco or Sainsburys. The Staff at Morrisons are much
more polite and smarter, the store is better laid out and cleaner.

BBC Three Counties Radio have a program each week where they invite
listeners into the studio as taste testers and Morrisons consistently beat
Tesco, M&S, Sainsburys and Asda.

al wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote
Come to think of it, you only ever see one under a bridge, so I
suppose trolls are a territorial species....
Don't tar me with his brush!! ;p

Why, don't you want your paws wiped with peanut butter? :-)

Owain

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:33:49 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

I'd disagree with this, a product fills a 'need', then the market is
created by its price, for instance mobile phones.

No. Large organisations, the car industry is an example, have marketing
depts create desire and demand. The car industry is not technology
driven,
so needs to create desire to sell outdated products. You never see a car
being sold on the latest leading edge technology, it is always image and
lifestyle, etc.

They are marketing *their* product, but the market for cars as a whole
was first realised by Henry Ford, who manufactured a car that
substantial numbers of people could afford.

You obviously didn't get it.


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"al" wrote in message
. ..
"Capitol" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote

I mainly shop at Fortnum and Mason.

That's why he knows all about the range and quality of goods from
Morrisons and Aldi.

LOL

Well quite ... it's a well known fact that most F&M customers regularly
buy
£3 bottles of wine from Morrison's!! ;o)

Chav through and through our poor Dr Pathetic/IMM/whatver ..

What is a Chav?

Price Charles buys from Fortnum and Mason and yet buys a Prius for DogFace I
believe. You heard it from me first.



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In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"al" wrote in message
...
"Capitol" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote

I mainly shop at Fortnum and Mason.

That's why he knows all about the range and quality of goods from
Morrisons and Aldi.

LOL

Well quite ... it's a well known fact that most F&M customers regularly
buy
£3 bottles of wine from Morrison's!! ;o)

Chav through and through our poor Dr Pathetic/IMM/whatver ..

What is a Chav?

Price Charles buys from Fortnum and Mason and yet buys a Prius for DogFace I
believe. You heard it from me first.

From the "Essex Times" under a fiver ads ?

"Good working order except for a leaking pushfit joint"


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"al" wrote in message
...
"Capitol" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote

I mainly shop at Fortnum and Mason.

That's why he knows all about the range and quality of goods from
Morrisons and Aldi.

LOL

Well quite ... it's a well known fact that most F&M customers regularly
buy
£3 bottles of wine from Morrison's!! ;o)

Chav through and through our poor Dr Pathetic/IMM/whatver ..

What is a Chav?

Price Charles buys from Fortnum and Mason and yet buys a Prius for
DogFace I
believe. You heard it from me first.

From the "Essex Times" under a fiver ads ?

"Good working order except for a leaking pushfit joint"

Maxie, so you saw it too!!!


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al wrote:

I'm trying to buy a planer at the moment, having got sick to death of trying
to get a sensible cutting angle out of my "manual" plane (a bit too cheap me
thinks). Homebase (of all places!) have a Bosch PHO-1 (Green range) for
sale for about ï½£35, which is reasonable, but I think at least last year's
model, if not older. I certainly don't want to spend more than ï½£50. What
do you think? Folly or not ..?

I have one of those - bought it probably 12 years ago or more. It was
one of those occasions where almost any tool would have done - and that
was the cheapest reasonable looking one. Having bought it, it has had
reasonably regular use over the years.

Good points:
Enough power, runs reasonably smoothly, leaves a good finish. Height of
the sole plate is easy to adjust.

Not so good:
The dust extraction spout is an odd shape (trapezoidal!) that makes
attaching a hose next to impossible unless you can track down the
correct adaptor. Mains lead leaves straight out the back rather than to
a side, which tends to mean you always get it caught up on the work when
planing something long (like the side of a door), could do with being a
tad longer. Setting a null depth of cut after changing the blades seems
to be an exercise in trial and error (with emphasis on the error bit).
You can't lock the trigger on which can become fatiguing after time. The
case geometry means that it is not possible to do much in the way of a
rebate with it before the case will hit the work.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:07:34 -0000, "Kaiser" wrote:




Typical that most people who knock Morrisons and Aldi have never used them,
We shop at Morrisons and Aldi on a regular basis, but previous to Morrisons
being there we used Tesco or Sainsburys. The Staff at Morrisons are much
more polite and smarter, the store is better laid out and cleaner.

BBC Three Counties Radio have a program each week where they invite
listeners into the studio as taste testers and Morrisons consistently beat
Tesco, M&S, Sainsburys and Asda.


Well..... this can only lead me to believe that Morrisons have a
serious management problem.

The (ex-Safeway) store near to me has staff problems and staff
attitude problems. The staff (mostly the same staff) certainly have a
poorer attitude than when Safeway ran the place, and it wasn't
outstanding then.

The variety of goods have been substantially reduced and replaced with
Morrisons own label stuff to the detriment of major brands which have
all but disappeared. I like to shop in one place on one day, and a
different place the next, according to where I am or perhaps one or
two specific items that I want to buy. For the generic stuff, I don't
have time to think about whether I like Morrisons baked beans or
Sainsburys cornflakes or whether the nutritional content is equivalent
(examples - I don't buy either).

In this store, at least, they have got the match between what they are
offering and what customers are willing to buy, very wrong. Safeway,
although not brilliant, at least got that bit right.
This either means that they are trying a one size fits all approach
nationally, regionally, are not listening to their customers or are
simply incompetent. Whichever it is, they have it wrong and people
are voting with their feet (or rather their cars).

If they are apparently succeeding elsewhere, it must be variability in
management (i.e. they get it right by accident) or customers'
differing requirements and expectations.

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:52:31 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:10:03 +0000, Pete C
wrote:

So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder,
drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre
saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though.

With lateral action, I guess you're thinking of things like jigsaws
where rotary motion is converted to linear. On that I agree with you,
although I think a lot of the issue becomes the nature of the
application usually being finer work.

I'd probably put portable planers nearer the front of the list. There
seems to be less difference across the range and none of them are
really for precision applications by their nature.

Hi,

Given that the average DIYer is likely to be fitting kitchens and
trimming doors, I'd tend to agree, so from that perspective swapping
planers and jigsaws in the list would be in order.

cheers,
Pete.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:38:50 GMT, "al"
wrote:

"Pete C" wrote in message
.. .
As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary
action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a
lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition.

So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder,
drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre
saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though.

Interesting order. Agree with the first 3 or 4. But cheap jigsaws seem to
be a nightmare. Also, I would have thought that mid-range planers are
pretty good. Extra money bring lightweight and perhaps longevity.

I'm trying to buy a planer at the moment, having got sick to death of trying
to get a sensible cutting angle out of my "manual" plane (a bit too cheap me
thinks). Homebase (of all places!) have a Bosch PHO-1 (Green range) for
sale for about £35, which is reasonable, but I think at least last year's
model, if not older. I certainly don't want to spend more than £50. What
do you think? Folly or not ..?

Hi,

I bought a Skil recently which looks pretty similar, Skil being part
of the Bosch group. It gives a very good surface finish but isn't a
high precision tool, if used a number of times on the same surface of
wood then the overall depth of cut isn't that accurate.

It should be possible to check how good a planer will be, by using the
edge of a decent steel rule to check that the front and rear parts of
the base are parallel at different depths of cut. Also that the tip of
the blades when at the lowest point are parallel to the base too, and
how near they will cut to the plane that the rear part of the base is
in.

The problem I had with a cheap one is that the blades were slightly
above the rear part of the base, and the base had a sharp edge. So
once the workpiece caught this edge it would be pushed down a bit, the
blades would then leave a very slight 'step' in the wood, this in turn
gets caught, and so on, leaving a 'ripple' on the planed wood

If using it a lot then the means of changing the blade is worth a
look, on the better ones they are clamped down by a bar held by socket
screws with no adjustment required. On the cheaper ones they're often
clamped by a bar which is retained in a slot by backing off small
bolts tapped into the bar. These need fine adjustment, and the bolts
are often made of soft steel and the blade spanner from thin metal...


Also the size of the planer is a factor, a huge planer that can remove
3mm in one go may be a bit unwieldy.

I had a B&D planer 10-12 years ago that I thought was pretty good,
they still make a very similar one the KW715A, so this may be worth a
look. Not the KW712KA though, a comparison of the service diagrams on
the B&D website shows up the differences.

AFAICT the cheap ones are very much the luck of the draw, the mid
range ones should give a good finish but are unlikely to be high
accuracy, the top end ones will give a great finish and should be
ideal for taking material off in several passes accurately.

So for trimming door bottoms almost anything will do, for planing sawn
wood to a good finish or 'cleaning up' some wood a mid range or
possibly a budget one should do, and for removing exactly n.n mm off
the end of a worktop a high end one would be best, but you may get
lucky with something cheaper.

If you can speak to a joiner they should be able to give some good
advice, there are a few here that might be able to chip in

cheers,
Pete.

On 24 Mar 2005 16:18:26 -0800, "Magician"
wrote:

Hi All

snip

Now look at the Chinese. They only make copies of other peoples
products. No product development, no market development, no huge
investment whilst waiting for the return, no marketing to create a
brand.

They don't make original items, they make 'me too' products - often
passed on by European manufacturer's who have moved on.

Add to that the huge difference in labour rates; monthly wage that
compares to a European hourly wage and no wonder they can make stuff
cheaply! They don't have to cut material quality to cut costs!

Also, as with many developing countries, there is little governmental
control on the operating standards of the factories. None of the
environmental and safety controls that exist here. The safety record
in the manufacturing belt of Southern China is appalling.

David

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Don't tar me with his brush!! ;p

Why, don't you want your paws wiped with peanut butter? :-)

Owain

Ummmmm .......

;p






a

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:42460eed$0$67348$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp- I have one of those - bought it
probably 12 years ago or more. It was
one of those occasions where almost any tool would have done - and that
was the cheapest reasonable looking one. Having bought it, it has had
reasonably regular use over the years.


Interesting points. And if you had to buy one at that price range again,
would you buy the same?





a

al wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:42460eed$0$67348$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp- I have one of those - bought it
probably 12 years ago or more. It was

one of those occasions where almost any tool would have done - and that
was the cheapest reasonable looking one. Having bought it, it has had
reasonably regular use over the years.



Interesting points. And if you had to buy one at that price range again,
would you buy the same?

Hmmm good question... I guess the answer would be a qualified "no" - but
only for the reason that it would be interesting to see if something
"different" was better, rather than due to being particularly
dissatisfied with it. If it were the only one on the shelf, and I needed
a plane, then I would be happy enough with it. In absolute terms I have
not used enough different ones to know how well it compares really.

(that probably reads a little more negatively than I intended - it is
one of those tools that does not evoke strong feelings one way or the
other when I use it (other than I wish I could plane level!) - hence you
don't finsh a job thinking "That is really good tool, glad I bought it,
joy to use" etc. By the same token I don't think "This is a pile of
monkey vomit, I must get a proper one ASAP".



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:13:31 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:26:27 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Vector Idol" wrote in message
.. .

Anyhow how come you can drink wine when you are freezing your ass off
while your bath fills?

Another spamming troll. He comes in out of nowhere. What company do you
represent?

What's up? Don't you like the competition?

Lord Hall, what is this competition you are on about?


False of sense security..... a very dangerous position.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

Price Charles buys from Fortnum and Mason and yet buys a Prius for
DogFace I
believe.

Is that the same Prius you've been sniffing around and about which you
had to ask "what is a VIN"?

No.


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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:13:09 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:52:31 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:10:03 +0000, Pete C
wrote:

So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder,
drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre
saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though.

With lateral action, I guess you're thinking of things like jigsaws
where rotary motion is converted to linear. On that I agree with you,
although I think a lot of the issue becomes the nature of the
application usually being finer work.

I'd probably put portable planers nearer the front of the list. There
seems to be less difference across the range and none of them are
really for precision applications by their nature.

Hi,

Given that the average DIYer is likely to be fitting kitchens and
trimming doors, I'd tend to agree, so from that perspective swapping
planers and jigsaws in the list would be in order.

cheers,
Pete.

Having had a cheapishjigsaw for a while, I used to think that
inaccuracy from blade wandering etc. was inherent in jigsaws. Almost
by chance, I tried out a mid-high end Bosch GST and found it excellent
and capable of really good work.

With hand power planes I'm less convinced. Let's assume that you
eliminate the really low end rubbish that is noticably out of true (I
have seen some of these) and look at reasonable products like Skil
which seem to be mechanically reasonable but not highly powered. When
I've compared these with the higher end like Bosch professional and
Makita, apart from the power and perhaps being wider, the difference
has not been very noticable.

None were capable of particularly accurate work as far as I could
find. For example, for timber preparation from sawn timber, if one
is doing this regularly, then a planer, thicknesser or combination of
the two would do a much better job. For certain tasks, I find I do
need to use a plane, but get much better control and results from a
selection of hand ones.

For jobs like kitchen fitting and door trimming, I think that a power
planer can be useful, but generally these are jobs where ultimate
accuracy is not needed or where items are being scribed in to uneven
surfaces. However, for this kind of accuracy I didn't see a big
difference between a reasonable Skil product and a higher end one -
i.e. not a lot more to be achieved.
I think that if one were doing site work and/or needing to remove
larger amounts of material quickly, there could be a case for the
larger and more powerful power planer.

Possibly it's just me, but they seem neither one thing nor the other.
On the one hand I can use a planer/thicknesser for accurately
machining timber in linear dimensions. For finer work, I want to use
a handplane or to sand the piece. This doesn't leave many power
planer applications.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:06:52 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Having had a cheapishjigsaw for a while, I used to think that
inaccuracy from blade wandering etc. was inherent in jigsaws. Almost
by chance, I tried out a mid-high end Bosch GST and found it excellent
and capable of really good work.

Hi,

True, but for me if I need accuracy in cutting timber or sheet
material I'll use a circular saw, maybe with a simple jig.

I expect cutting curved shapes from thick board, eg sink cutouts is
where a high end jigsaw really comes into it's own, and the rest of
the time it will be a lot nicer to use, even if accuracy is not
paramount.

I'm sure that there are other good uses for a decent jigsaw that I
havent thought of, maybe they would justify me getting one.

With hand power planes I'm less convinced. Let's assume that you
eliminate the really low end rubbish that is noticably out of true (I
have seen some of these) and look at reasonable products like Skil
which seem to be mechanically reasonable but not highly powered. When
I've compared these with the higher end like Bosch professional and
Makita, apart from the power and perhaps being wider, the difference
has not been very noticable.

None were capable of particularly accurate work as far as I could
find. For example, for timber preparation from sawn timber, if one
is doing this regularly, then a planer, thicknesser or combination of
the two would do a much better job. For certain tasks, I find I do
need to use a plane, but get much better control and results from a
selection of hand ones.

In what way are they not accurate? Mid range or even some budget ones
will give a very good surface finish, which is all is needed for
cleaning up sawn timber.

What they might not give is a very consistent depth of cut all the way
along the timber, particularly at the start and at the end. It might
only vary by half a mm, but this could be noticable in some uses. Also
if the same surface needs to be planed a number of times to give the
required depth it could end up varying by a couple of mm, which isn't
too good.

For jobs like kitchen fitting and door trimming, I think that a power
planer can be useful, but generally these are jobs where ultimate
accuracy is not needed or where items are being scribed in to uneven
surfaces. However, for this kind of accuracy I didn't see a big
difference between a reasonable Skil product and a higher end one -
i.e. not a lot more to be achieved.

Again, is this in terms of finish or depth of cut? A high end one
should be very good at both, but I'd expect that some high end ones
are better than others.

I think that if one were doing site work and/or needing to remove
larger amounts of material quickly, there could be a case for the
larger and more powerful power planer.

Possibly it's just me, but they seem neither one thing nor the other.
On the one hand I can use a planer/thicknesser for accurately
machining timber in linear dimensions. For finer work, I want to use
a handplane or to sand the piece. This doesn't leave many power
planer applications.

For me I would only consider a thicknesser if I was planing a lot of
wood in one go or wide boards. I don't really need to 'dimension'
uneven wood, more just get a good surface finish and sometimes take a
given amount off some wood that is already a consistent size.

If I need a very good surface finish on some timber I just plane a
little off each side, using a rubber mat to stop it slipping around.
With a bit of care any planer 'snipe' at the end of the cut can be
minimised too.

Also if I want to lose say 1mm at one end and 3mm at the other I'll
plane the wood in 'steps', then plane the steps out for a smooth
finish.

Given the above I find I don't need a sander or hand plane, but I
think it just comes down to personal preference.

cheers,
Pete.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:06:03 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:06:52 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Having had a cheapishjigsaw for a while, I used to think that
inaccuracy from blade wandering etc. was inherent in jigsaws. Almost
by chance, I tried out a mid-high end Bosch GST and found it excellent
and capable of really good work.

Hi,

True, but for me if I need accuracy in cutting timber or sheet
material I'll use a circular saw, maybe with a simple jig.

I do that for very large pieces of sheet material, but otherwise use a
table saw. I agree though, that a circular saw with guide is a good
way to cut large work.




I expect cutting curved shapes from thick board, eg sink cutouts is
where a high end jigsaw really comes into it's own, and the rest of
the time it will be a lot nicer to use, even if accuracy is not
paramount.

I'd probably use a router for worktops, but tend to use the jig saw
for work on thinner material.


I'm sure that there are other good uses for a decent jigsaw that I
havent thought of, maybe they would justify me getting one.

With hand power planes I'm less convinced. Let's assume that you
eliminate the really low end rubbish that is noticably out of true (I
have seen some of these) and look at reasonable products like Skil
which seem to be mechanically reasonable but not highly powered. When
I've compared these with the higher end like Bosch professional and
Makita, apart from the power and perhaps being wider, the difference
has not been very noticable.

None were capable of particularly accurate work as far as I could
find. For example, for timber preparation from sawn timber, if one
is doing this regularly, then a planer, thicknesser or combination of
the two would do a much better job. For certain tasks, I find I do
need to use a plane, but get much better control and results from a
selection of hand ones.

In what way are they not accurate? Mid range or even some budget ones
will give a very good surface finish, which is all is needed for
cleaning up sawn timber.

That depends on what you want to do with the resulting timber. If
it's for an application where the thickness is not too important -
e.g. basic framing work, out of sight - and the planer is wider than
the timber, then it probably doesn't matter too much.


What they might not give is a very consistent depth of cut all the way
along the timber, particularly at the start and at the end. It might
only vary by half a mm, but this could be noticable in some uses. Also
if the same surface needs to be planed a number of times to give the
required depth it could end up varying by a couple of mm, which isn't
too good.


This is the kind of thing that I meant. If it's meant to be
straight, then I like it to be straight - a couple of mm can be quite
noticable.

For cases of fitting a piece to a wall that is out of true, I find
that I can better control and finish with a hand plane.

For jobs like kitchen fitting and door trimming, I think that a power
planer can be useful, but generally these are jobs where ultimate
accuracy is not needed or where items are being scribed in to uneven
surfaces. However, for this kind of accuracy I didn't see a big
difference between a reasonable Skil product and a higher end one -
i.e. not a lot more to be achieved.

Again, is this in terms of finish or depth of cut? A high end one
should be very good at both, but I'd expect that some high end ones
are better than others.

I wouldn't consider that depth of cut is that important for a hand
planer, although I suppose that some people might. I'm much more
concerned with squareness, consistency and finish.


I think that if one were doing site work and/or needing to remove
larger amounts of material quickly, there could be a case for the
larger and more powerful power planer.

Possibly it's just me, but they seem neither one thing nor the other.
On the one hand I can use a planer/thicknesser for accurately
machining timber in linear dimensions. For finer work, I want to use
a handplane or to sand the piece. This doesn't leave many power
planer applications.

For me I would only consider a thicknesser if I was planing a lot of
wood in one go or wide boards. I don't really need to 'dimension'
uneven wood, more just get a good surface finish and sometimes take a
given amount off some wood that is already a consistent size.

I have a planer/thicknesser because I do work with wider boards. I
tend to use it for preparing dimensional timber as well, because I can
buy the sawn stuff in appropriate grade and prepare it to whatever
sizes I want.


If I need a very good surface finish on some timber I just plane a
little off each side, using a rubber mat to stop it slipping around.
With a bit of care any planer 'snipe' at the end of the cut can be
minimised too.

Another solution to that is to cut a longer piece and cut the sniped
bits away afterwards.


Also if I want to lose say 1mm at one end and 3mm at the other I'll
plane the wood in 'steps', then plane the steps out for a smooth
finish.

Given the above I find I don't need a sander or hand plane, but I
think it just comes down to personal preference.


I think so. There are probably several permutations to doing the mix
of jobs that one wants to do and this results in tools being bought
for that. Then the gaps that arre enot covered become less. I
suppose also that getting used to one way of doing things creates
preferences of tool type as well.





--

..andy

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