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Boiler Replacement
My Boiler is on its last legs - had our annual service today and the British Gas Crook, sorry, Man said spare parts were no longer available etc etc
So I'm preparing for the worst. We currently have a vented(?) system - cold water tank in the loft and hot water cylinder in the Airing cupboard upstairs. Boiler itself is downstairs in the kitchen. We have an ensuite with a Shower cubicle - thermostatic shower valve fed by an Aqualisa pump from a hot and cold feed from cylinder/cold tank. In the main bathroom, I have a power shower fed form the same hot and cold tanks. Seems as if opinion is certainly skewed towards Combi systems - question (finally) is....will I need to replace my Showers (v v problematic) or can they run with a new combi system or similar. I'd plan to do as much DIY as poss - prep work and flushing etc etc - what do people think I should do? Very grateful as ever Alex |
My Boiler is on its last legs - had our annual service today and the
British Gas Crook, sorry, Man said spare parts were no longer available etc etc Same old. Keep the old boiler until it starts going wrong. Unless it is particularly old and inefficient, it is more environmentally friendly to waste a little gas and save on a lot of manufacturing processes (with horrible PCBs etc.). Seems as if opinion is certainly skewed towards Combi systems - question (finally) is....will I need to replace my Showers (v v problematic) or can they run with a new combi system or similar. If you're happy with the shower performance and don't mind the noise/space of the pumped tanked system, keep them. There will be much less plumbing to do and your system will almost certainly have superior bath filling performance. High flow rate combis suitable for multiple simultaneous showers are much more expensive than the simple modulating system boiler you would need to run your existing hot water system. Standard rate combis are well priced, but aren't brilliant running two showers. Christian. |
"alexbartman" wrote in message ... My Boiler is on its last legs - had our annual service today and the British Gas Crook, sorry, Man said spare parts were no longer available etc etc So I'm preparing for the worst. We currently have a vented(?) system - cold water tank in the loft and hot water cylinder in the Airing cupboard upstairs. Boiler itself is downstairs in the kitchen. We have an ensuite with a Shower cubicle - thermostatic shower valve fed by an Aqualisa pump from a hot and cold feed from cylinder/cold tank. In the main bathroom, I have a power shower fed form the same hot and cold tanks. Seems as if opinion is certainly skewed towards Combi systems - question (finally) is....will I need to replace my Showers (v v problematic) or can they run with a new combi system or similar. I'd plan to do as much DIY as poss - prep work and flushing etc etc - what do people think I should do? Fit a high flow combi and remove the pump. Check with the mixer makers if it is a high pressure model. Some can have the cartridge replaced from high to low pressure. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et... My Boiler is on its last legs - had our annual service today and the British Gas Crook, sorry, Man said spare parts were no longer available etc etc Same old. Keep the old boiler until it starts going wrong. Unless it is particularly old and inefficient, it is more environmentally friendly to waste a little gas and save on a lot of manufacturing processes (with horrible PCBs etc.). Seems as if opinion is certainly skewed towards Combi systems - question (finally) is....will I need to replace my Showers (v v problematic) or can they run with a new combi system or similar. If you're happy with the shower performance and don't mind the noise/space of the pumped tanked system, keep them. There will be much less plumbing to do and your system will almost certainly have superior bath filling performance. High flow rate combis suitable for multiple simultaneous showers are much more expensive than the simple modulating system boiler you would need to run your existing hot water system. Standard rate combis are well priced, but aren't brilliant running two showers. Simple, use two combi's. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
In article ,
alexbartman wrote: My Boiler is on its last legs - had our annual service today and the British Gas Crook, sorry, Man said spare parts were no longer available etc etc Standard sales pitch. There's a very good chance the most needed spares are still available - as it sounds like a basic boiler. Of course if you *depend* on having a BG service contract there's nothing you can do about these lies. -- *Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
High flow rate combis suitable for multiple simultaneous showers are much
more expensive than the simple modulating system boiler you would need to run your existing hot water system. Standard rate combis are well priced, but aren't brilliant running two showers. Simple, use two combi's. Which, by definition, doubles the price. Christian. |
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... High flow rate combis suitable for multiple simultaneous showers are much more expensive than the simple modulating system boiler you would need to run your existing hot water system. Standard rate combis are well priced, but aren't brilliant running two showers. Simple, use two combi's. Which, by definition, doubles the price. Doubles the price of smaller low priced units. Two W-B Juniors can be had for around £1,000 and will deliver approx 20 litres/min. Look around for a 20 l/min combi and see what the prices are. But it gives you so much more and highly cost effective. One combi does one shower, one the other, with one not robbing the other, combine the two for the bath to give a high flow. One does upstairs heating and one does downstairs heating, both with their own stat/programmers. Two totally independent systems. You can have the rad temperatures low upstairs and high downstairs as well. If one combi drops out there is always heat in the house and hot water (great bonus). No large cylinder taking up space and making the place look like a school boiler room, just small neat white boxes on the wall saving space. One poster has already done this with great success. The only disadvantage is that there are two service costs. With two boilers side by side a deal can be struck to reduce this. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
Doubles the price of smaller low priced units. Two W-B Juniors can be had
for around £1,000 and will deliver approx 20 litres/min. Look around for a 20 l/min combi and see what the prices are. Or you could just keep the existing system and spend 500 quid on a single boiler, forget all the combi nonsense (with attendent expensive/time consuming replumbing) and have 80 litres/min. Christian. |
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... Doubles the price of smaller low priced units. Two W-B Juniors can be had for around £1,000 and will deliver approx 20 litres/min. Look around for a 20 l/min combi and see what the prices are. Or you could just keep the existing system and spend 500 quid on a single boiler, forget all the combi nonsense (with attendent expensive/time consuming replumbing) and have 80 litres/min. £500 gets you from point A to point A. 80 l/min is overkill, and you will only be getting that for a few minutes before the cylinder is exhausted. Taken to extremes, the combi's will provide showers for as long as you want, all day in there with two showers going if you are that way inclined. The two combi's release valuable space and gives a natural simple zoned heating system saving money on fuel bills. No contest, the two combi's win hands down, on all points to gain zoned heating system providing two showers and bath and liberating space: Two combis win on: 1. Low capital cost of installation 2. Running cost, upstairs heating can be off most of the day. 3. No waiting for showers 4. Showers don't run out of hot water 5. Simple zoned heating system with independent time zones. 6. Different rad temperatures on different floors. 7. Less controls to go wrong, with accompanying down time and expense. (no zone valves and the likes) 8. Always heat and hot water. Two combi's means built-in redundancy. 9. Release valuable space for storage. Only disadvantage is slightly more expensive on regular servicing, which is overwhelmingly offset by the above points _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
Two combis win on:
1. Low capital cost of installation ********. One boiler with no pipework changes will be less than half the capital cost of two boilers with substantial changes to pipework. 2. Running cost, upstairs heating can be off most of the day. Subzoning is easily achieved using a single boiler. 3. No waiting for showers Have you ever used a storage system? There is no wait for showers. 4. Showers don't run out of hot water A shower will not run out of hot water, provided the usage is below the capacity of the coil. An old cylinder may have a poor coil, but would still hold sufficient water for the longest of showers. 5. Simple zoned heating system with independent time zones. Subzoning is easily achieved using a single boiler. 6. Different rad temperatures on different floors. Which serves what purpose when you have TRVs and subzoned thermostatic control? 7. Less controls to go wrong, with accompanying down time and expense. (no zone valves and the likes) But multiple pumps and boilers, all of which can go wrong. 8. Always heat and hot water. Two combi's means built-in redundancy. About the only advantage. 9. Release valuable space for storage. Where are you putting the new boiler? The cylinder and tanks are often in otherwise unused locations. You'll need to run a new gas line as well. The existing 22mm won't be enough. Only disadvantage is slightly more expensive on regular servicing, which is overwhelmingly offset by the above points Which is why every house in the country has 2 combis. The case is so compelling. Christian. |
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote: 1. Low capital cost of installation The cost of *installation* is lower with two boilers? Or just the capital cost? 2. Running cost, upstairs heating can be off most of the day. Little advantage given the way most use bedrooms for things other than sleeping? Oh - and keep all doors closed at all times? 3. No waiting for showers You don't have to with a storage system. 4. Showers don't run out of hot water They wouldn't need to, given the time needed to get clean in those dribbles. 5. Simple zoned heating system with independent time zones. Not difficult to achieve with one system, but in practice of little use in most ordinary homes. 6. Different rad temperatures on different floors. Err, TRVs? 7. Less controls to go wrong, with accompanying down time and expense. (no zone valves and the likes) But two programmers, two programmable stats and most of all, two pumps? 8. Always heat and hot water. Two combi's means built-in redundancy. And twice the chance of failure? 9. Release valuable space for storage. Let me see - adding a second boiler releases space? Is this in a Tardis sort of way? Only disadvantage is slightly more expensive on regular servicing, which is overwhelmingly offset by the above points So you keep on saying. Most would consider it a lose lose situation. With the extra installation costs well outweighing any savings against a larger boiler. -- *Why is it that rain drops but snow falls? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net... Two combis win on: 1. Low capital cost of installation ********. One boiler with no pipework changes will be less than half the capital cost of two boilers with substantial changes to pipework. But the gains are terrific. 2. Running cost, upstairs heating can be off most of the day. Subzoning is easily achieved using a single boiler. It is NOT. You require zone valves, which take up space and the control wiring and knowledge to do it to boot. Two combi's achieves this much simpler with virtually no wiring worth talking about. To avoid Part P you can even connect them up to a 3 pin socket. 3. No waiting for showers Have you ever used a storage system? There is no wait for showers. They run out though. No waiting for showers with a combi eiether. Ever used one? And "two" high pressure showers can be running all day. Can't get that with a storage system. 4. Showers don't run out of hot water A shower will not run out of hot water, provided the usage is below the capacity of the coil. Which means a large boiler and a new larger space consuming cylinder, in this case. Getting expensive now. Two comb's is looking far more attractive. 5. Simple zoned heating system with independent time zones. Subzoning is easily achieved using a single boiler. It is NOT. See above. 6. Different rad temperatures on different floors. Which serves what purpose when you have TRVs and subzoned thermostatic control? Economy and safer with kids about in the playroom with no exsessively hot rads. The lower the boiler temp the more efficient. Turn upstairs to 61C flow. 7. Less controls to go wrong, with accompanying down time and expense. (no zone valves and the likes) But multiple pumps and boilers, all of which can go wrong. Two integrated pumps that do CH and DHW. As two boilers, the load is shared and they both have an easier life. W-B Junior is simple with no 3-way valves 8. Always heat and hot water. Two combi's means built-in redundancy. About the only advantage. You lack common reasoning. 9. Release valuable space for storage. Where are you putting the new boiler? The cylinder and tanks are often in otherwise unused locations. What sort of house do you have? Most British houses are far too small with cylinder taking up valuable cupboard space. You'll need to run a new gas line as well. The existing 22mm won't be enough. One for each. Not a great thing. Only disadvantage is slightly more expensive on regular servicing, which is overwhelmingly offset by the above points Which is why every house in the country has 2 combis. The case is so compelling. Most houses have a tank in the loft, a cylinder taking up cupboard space, a shower you run around in to get wet, TWO taps on a basin so you are moving your hands from one too hot tap to the other cold tap when washing them and a boiler in the KITCHEN. Most other countries laugh at us. The British are renowned for bad plumbing. Talk to an American who have been backpacking around the UK. They can't wait to get home for a decent shower. In the US many are going over to multi-points that output 200,000 plus BTUs/hr. On-demand hot water is regarded as much superior to stored water. Bosch, Takagi and Rinnai are the big players. Two combi's is roughly the same output. The largest output multi-point in the world is a Takagi. Read what I write and take it in, instead of thinking you know it all. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Christian McArdle" wrote:
If you're happy with the shower performance and don't mind the noise/space of the pumped tanked system, keep them. There will be much less plumbing to do and your system will almost certainly have superior bath filling performance. Superior bath filling performance - absolutely, why anyone would ever want a combi escapes me, I can get up turn on the taps, have a ****, clean my teeth and halfway through a shave the full size bath is overflowing with steaming hot water. Wonderful. (and the tank still has enough for the old woman to have her long shower) Using a combi on a warm day in the middle of a once in 500 years heatwave it would struggle to fill a 5 gallon bucket of bath temperature water in a similar time (despite the manufacturers claims) A few words for combi's "cheap ****e from europe suitable for smelly frogs" "the slowest way to run a bath - ever" "the crappiest shower you ever had" "a step back to the dark ages" -- |
But the gains are terrific.
So you claim. However, claiming that capital costs are lower is simply false. The capital costs are over double. They run out though. No waiting for showers with a combi eiether. Ever used one? Yes. You have to wait much longer, as you have to wait for the combi to fire up and get up to speed, unless you have one with built in storage. And "two" high pressure showers can be running all day. Can't get that with a storage system. Of course you can, if the boiler you choose has sufficient output (and the cylinder has sufficient input) to cover the showers, then a storage system would also not run out. It is NOT. You require zone valves, which take up space and the control wiring and knowledge to do it to boot. It's hardly rocket science to wire up S-Plan systems. The wiring is exceptionally simple. It is NOT. See above. It is extremely simple. If you're confused by wiring up a S-Plan system, then you should have put down the tools long ago. It is only fractionally more difficult that wiring up your iconic 2 combis. In the US many are going over to multi-points that output 200,000 plus BTUs/hr. On-demand hot water is regarded as much superior to stored water. Bosch, Takagi and Rinnai are the big players. Two combi's is roughly the same output. The largest output multi-point in the world is a Takagi. Don't talk rot. They have crappy direct electric and gas heaters that have the efficiency of a lit fart. They have very few instantaneous gas heaters actually installed, although 24kW instantaneous electric heating is common enough, with the obvious limitations thereof. Christian. |
With the extra installation costs well outweighing any savings against a
larger boiler. Also, having two boilers means that your minimum modulation gets worse. In a marginal heating situation, bumping along the bottom at 4-8kW, you want the entire load on one boiler so it doesn't have to cycle unnecessarily. With 2 combis, you could have 2 boilers cycling instead of one pootling along at minimum, at much greater efficiency. Christian. |
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote: Subzoning is easily achieved using a single boiler. It is NOT. You require zone valves, which take up space A zone valve takes up space? Do you live in a doll's house? and the control wiring and knowledge to do it to boot. Ah. Now the truth. You don't know how to wire them. Two combi's achieves this much simpler with virtually no wiring worth talking about. To avoid Part P you can even connect them up to a 3 pin socket. But double the CORGI fees for the gas work and commissioning? Which planet are you on to-day? -- *Ham and Eggs: Just a day's work for a chicken, but a lifetime commitment Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"alexbartman" wrote in message
... My Boiler is on its last legs - had our annual service today and the British Gas Crook, sorry, Man said spare parts were no longer available etc etc So I'm preparing for the worst. We currently have a vented(?) system - cold water tank in the loft and hot water cylinder in the Airing cupboard upstairs. Boiler itself is downstairs in the kitchen. We have an ensuite with a Shower cubicle - thermostatic shower valve fed by an Aqualisa pump from a hot and cold feed from cylinder/cold tank. In the main bathroom, I have a power shower fed form the same hot and cold tanks. Seems as if opinion is certainly skewed towards Combi systems - question (finally) is....will I need to replace my Showers (v v problematic) or can they run with a new combi system or similar. I'd plan to do as much DIY as poss - prep work and flushing etc etc - what do people think I should do? What's the make & model and is there actually anything wrong with it to warrant replacement or is it just BG "looking after their customers" by suggesting replacement? -- Richard Sampson mail me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote: With the extra installation costs well outweighing any savings against a larger boiler. Also, having two boilers means that your minimum modulation gets worse. In a marginal heating situation, bumping along the bottom at 4-8kW, you want the entire load on one boiler so it doesn't have to cycle unnecessarily. With 2 combis, you could have 2 boilers cycling instead of one pootling along at minimum, at much greater efficiency. Good point. You'd have thought a 'pro' - who claims to have installed such systems - to have known this. Perhaps some of his 'clients' might now sue him? -- *I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... But the gains are terrific. So you claim. However, claiming that capital costs are lower is simply false. The capital costs are over double. For what you gain it is not. Putting a new boiler on an old systems adds little value. They run out though. No waiting for showers with a combi eiether. Ever used one? Yes. You have to wait much longer, as you have to wait for the combi to fire up and get up to speed, unless you have one with built in storage. Are you having a laugh? You have to wait for the cold lag to empty in adraw-off in a storage system. And "two" high pressure showers can be running all day. Can't get that with a storage system. Of course you can, if the boiler you choose has sufficient output (and the cylinder has sufficient input) to cover the showers, then a storage system would also not run out. The boiler would have to be as big as the combined two combi's outputs, as when the stored water depletes you will be running on boiler output. It is NOT. You require zone valves, which take up space and the control wiring and knowledge to do it to boot. It's hardly rocket science to wire up S-Plan systems. The wiring is exceptionally simple. The wiring is NOT simple, especially to the uninitiated. The valves tale up space and are another thing to go wrong which is expense. It is NOT. See above. It is extremely simple. It ios NOT. see above. In the US many are going over to multi-points that output 200,000 plus BTUs/hr. On-demand hot water is regarded as much superior to stored water. Bosch, Takagi and Rinnai are the big players. Two combi's is roughly the same output. The largest output multi-point in the world is a Takagi. Don't talk rot. You haven't a clue. You have been taking Andy Hall pills. They have crappy direct electric and gas heaters that have the efficiency of a lit fart. They have very few instantaneous gas heaters actually installed, although 24kW instantaneous electric heating is common enough, with the obvious limitations thereof. You still haven't a clue. Tankless on-demand (instantaneous, multi-point in the UK), is increasing market share in the USA. Want 50 litres/min for 2 hours on end? Get a Takagi multi-point at 380,00 BTU/hr. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"No Spam" wrote in message ... "Christian McArdle" wrote: If you're happy with the shower performance and don't mind the noise/space of the pumped tanked system, keep them. There will be much less plumbing to do and your system will almost certainly have superior bath filling performance. Superior bath filling performance - absolutely, why anyone would ever want a combi escapes me, I can get up turn on the taps, have a ****, clean my teeth and halfway through a shave the full size bath is overflowing with steaming hot water. Wonderful. (and the tank still has enough for the old woman to have her long shower) Using a combi on a warm day in the middle of a once in 500 years heatwave it would struggle to fill a 5 gallon bucket of bath temperature water in a similar time (despite the manufacturers claims) A few words for combi's "cheap ****e from europe suitable for smelly frogs" "the slowest way to run a bath - ever" "the crappiest shower you ever had" "a step back to the dark ages" You obviously haven't a clue what you are on about. read this.....and read it properly... Here is a run down on combi's: Firstly, a combi is a "combination" of the heating and water system in one case, eliminating external tanks and cylinders, and generally supply hot water at high main pressure. To confuse a little, some can run at very low pressures and even off tanks. Generally most are fed from the mains. It is generally a matter of mounting the boiler and connect up the pipes. The expert designers have done the hard work for you and put all in one case. Types of combi: 1) The Infinitely Continuous Combi - Heats cold mains water instantly as it runs through the combi. It never runs out of hot water. This is the most common type of combi, generally having lower flowrates than Nos 2 & 3 below. The largest flow rate instant combi is a two bathroom model, 22 litres/min ECO-Hometec. Being a condenser it is very economical too. http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk 2) Unvented Cylinder Combi - An unvented cylinder is a similar to a conventional cylinder but run off the high-pressure cold mains. A combi with an integral unvented cylinder has approx 60 litre cylinder heated to approx 80C, with a quick recovery coil that takes all the boilers output. A fast acting cylinder thermostat ensures the boiler pumps heat into the cylinder ASAP with a recovery rate from cold around 5-8 mins (Ariston claim 8 mins). The 80C water is blended down to about 45-50C. e.g's, Ariston Genus 27 Plus, Glow Worm, Powermax, Alpha CD50. 3) Infinately Continuous/Unvented cylinder combi - An example being the Alpha CD50, a combination of both having a two stage flowrate, of high flowrate when using the stored water with an automatic flow regulator switching in to reduce flow to an infinately continuous flowrate of approx 13-14 litres/min. http://www.alpha-boilers.com/products/CD50.html 4) Heat Bank Combi - Incoming water is instantly heated running through a plate heat exchanger (as is most instantaneous combi's) that takes its heat from a "domestic hot water only" store of water at approx 80C (instantaneous combi's take the heat from a heat-exchanger heater via the burner). A fast acting thermostat ensures the boiler pumps all of its heat into the store ASAP with a recovery rate about 5-8 mins from cold. The 80C water is blended down to about 45-50C. They are generally two stage flow rates, in that when the thermal store is exhausted it reverts to what the burner can produce, which is approx 11-12 litre/minute. e.g. Vokera & Worcester floor standing models (standard washing machine sizes). N.B. The heat bank is a variation of a thermal store, but is "not" a thermal store in the conventional sense in that a coil carrying cold mains water runs though a store of hot water kept at about 80C. Heat-banks are far more efficient and give higher flowrates than conventional coiled thermal stores. The stainless steel plate heat-exchangers do not scale up so easily. 5) Combined Primary Storage Unit (Not classed as a combi, but a derivative of a combi, but still a one box solution, so still in the same family) These are a combination of a large thermal store, or heat bank, and boiler in one casing. The units are large (larger than standard washing machine size) and floor mounted. The heating is taken off the thermal store, which in many cases the DHW taken off the store using a plate heat-exchanger (heat-bank). Unlike the Heat-bank in 3) above the thermal store supplies heating "and" DHW, giving the "combined" to the title. They are available from 1 to 2.5 bathroom models. Gledhill do an excellent condensing version, the Gulfsream 2000. http://www.gledhill.net Nos. 2), 3), 4) & 5) have high flowrates. No. 1 "generally" has low flowrates but there are always exceptions and some can be high - e.g. the ECO-Hometec infinitely continuous combi, actually has a very high flowrate. Nos 2), 3), 4) & 5) use stored water, but in different ways. Unlike No. 1 "some" versions will eventually run cold, but that takes quite a time, hence some are referred to as "two bathroom" models, having the ability to fill two baths with very fast recovery rates. As hot water is being drawn off the high rating burner is also reheating. Very rare do these combi's run out of hot water in average use. When taking one shower the burner may be re-heating faster than what can be drawn-off. No. 3) above uses stored water but will not run out of hot water (high and low flowrates). Most versions of No. 4) above are two stage flowrate models (high and low flowrates) and will also not run out of hot water. There are combi models that give hot water and heating simultaneously as Combined Primary Storage Units do. Most don't as they are hot water priority. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
For what you gain it is not. Putting a new boiler on an old systems adds
little value. You're now just arguing that the extra capital cost is justified. This is very different from your original assertion that the capital cost was less. Yes. You have to wait much longer, as you have to wait for the combi to fire up and get up to speed, unless you have one with built in storage. Are you having a laugh? You have to wait for the cold lag to empty in adraw-off in a storage system. Not only does a combi also have this cold lag (in addition to burner and primary circuit lag), but the much reduced flow rate means that the cold lag is of much greater time duration. The wiring is NOT simple, especially to the uninitiated. The valves tale up space and are another thing to go wrong which is expense. If you can't wire up a zone valve, you are not a competent person to do any electrics at all. It is less complicated than wiring a lighting point. You still haven't a clue. Tankless on-demand (instantaneous, multi-point in the UK), is increasing market share in the USA. Whilst there is no doubt that it is increasing market share, it does not represent the installed base. I have no figures, but would guess that instantaneous water heating of mains water is more common in the UK than the US. It is not fair to compare the latest products in the US with UK products that were installed 20 years ago. Christian. |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , ....our resident loonie enter the fray.... Will be come out with something sensible? we shall see...... With the extra installation costs well outweighing any savings against a larger boiler. No. He failed again.... sad but true.... _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... Also, having two boilers means that your minimum modulation gets worse. In a marginal heating situation, bumping along the bottom at 4-8kW, Modern combi's have anti-cycle controls and also stat/programmers do too. cycling will be minimal for each, and more than just having one boiler,. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... ......He enters again...what will we expect this time... brace yourselves.... Good point. ....he says "good point", when it wasn;'t a good point. Well 0/10 for that one. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... ....illogical one is at it again....wee shall see..... But double the CORGI fees for the gas work and commissioning? ...he tried but as wee all see couldn't make any sense at all... _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote: Also, having two boilers means that your minimum modulation gets worse. In a marginal heating situation, bumping along the bottom at 4-8kW, you want the entire load on one boiler so it doesn't have to cycle unnecessarily. With 2 combis, you could have 2 boilers cycling instead of one pootling along at minimum, at much greater efficiency. Yes, but it's a simplicity v. efficiency v. redundancy equation. At home I've got one combi, 2 heating zones controlled by 2xCM67's controlling 2MV's: maximum efficiency but no redundancy and the extra failure point of the MV's. Two combis (or one combi and a system boiler each feeding its own heating zone might lead to increased cycling in mild weather but would reduce the risk of being without heating and would, as IMM says, require much less wiring. But I'm less than convinced that it really makes sense in a normal home, though you might argue that the £50 for the additional boiler service is a much cheaper form of insurance than BG or a boiler maker's emergency service cover. Our church heating, oft cited here, has two boilers and one heating zone with a basic control system to try and ensure that only one boiler runs when only one is needed. The upside is that we always have some heating even if a boiler fails; the downside is that four pumps are running instead of two. If there's some problem with church heating it's a bit late to discover it at 1000 on a Sunday morning Ultimately IMO there is no 'best': each option has its own advantages and disadvantages. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net... For what you gain it is not. Putting a new boiler on an old systems adds little value. You're now just arguing that the extra capital cost is justified. This is very different from your original assertion that the capital cost was less. If the boiler and cylinder need updating, there is no extra capital cost, you also get two zones thrown in for free, and the on-demand water heating. Yes. You have to wait much longer, as you have to wait for the combi to fire up and get up to speed, unless you have one with built in storage. Are you having a laugh? You have to wait for the cold lag to empty in adraw-off in a storage system. Not only does a combi also have this cold lag (in addition to burner and primary circuit lag), but the much reduced flow rate means that the cold lag is of much greater time duration. If it is, and some don't, it is not worthy of consideration. If you can't wire up a zone valve, you are not a competent person to do any electrics at all. It is less complicated than wiring a lighting point. Total crap. A combi requires one flex connected to two terminals and a mains cable. THAT IS IT!!!!!!! That is totally DIYable and a no brainer. You can connect up the combi to a 3 pin plug and Part P has nor been violated. You still haven't a clue. Tankless on-demand (instantaneous, multi-point in the UK), is increasing market share in the USA. Whilst there is no doubt that it is increasing market share, it does not represent the installed base. I have no figures, but would guess that instantaneous water heating of mains water is more common in the UK than the US. It is not fair to compare the latest products in the US with UK products that were installed 20 years ago. The US has only recently discovered instantaneous water heating. It is increasing in sales. It is regarded as more eco and less to run. In some parts of the US gas is more expensive than electricity. In the UK gas is about 1/4 of electricity per kW. In the US, the differential varies a lot. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message ... In article , Christian McArdle wrote: Also, having two boilers means that your minimum modulation gets worse. Yes, but it's a simplicity v. efficiency v. redundancy equation. At home I've got one combi, 2 heating zones controlled by 2xCM67's controlling 2MV's: maximum efficiency but no redundancy and the extra failure point of the MV's. Two combis (or one combi and a system boiler each feeding its own heating zone might lead to increased cycling in mild weather but would reduce the risk of being without heating and would, as IMM says, require much less wiring. Hardly any at all. Only a stat wire. But I'm less than convinced that it really makes sense in a normal home, Read my post on advantages. Clear, very clear. though you might argue that the £50 for the additional boiler service is a much cheaper form of insurance than BG or a boiler maker's emergency service cover. That is true. Ultimately IMO there is no 'best': each option has its own advantages and disadvantages. Some have more advantages than other. In an average home, can be a very large home, with 2 showers and one bath, a two combi setup is hard to argue against, as all logic dictates for it. And as you have pointed out with the insurance of an extra boiler keeping BG from ripping you off. It is also highly cost effective, sinple and reliable, which escapes many here. As you see here the detractors come up with twiddling piffling childish arguments. Because they have never come across it before a mental block occurs. How very British. If a body jet shower is required then two combi's may not hack it, depending on flowrate of course. If around 25 l/min for the shower then the two combi's will do just do it with colds added of course, but no bath would be run simultaneously, although if in the same bathroom as the shower the bath would not be run anyway. If larger flows are required then an integrated heat bank would be required, probably again using two boilers, with each connected directly to the heat bank. 58kW really does heat up fast, and when reheating, and using the heat bank, the power of the two boilers and the energy in the stored water will give a hell of a flow rate for quite a time. And of course the built-in redundancy. Two 15/26 kW boilers is usually cheaper than one 190,000 BTU/hr boiler, which gives no redundancy. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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Doctor Evil wrote: With the extra installation costs well outweighing any savings against a larger boiler. No. He failed again.... sad but true.... Ok then. I don't claim to be a pro. So I'm asking you to give some real world total costs of installing two combis against one combi of comparable output. Since you claim to have done this on many occasions, you should be able to delve into your accounts and give actual examples. -- *Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Doctor Evil wrote: If you can't wire up a zone valve, you are not a competent person to do any electrics at all. It is less complicated than wiring a lighting point. Total crap. A combi requires one flex connected to two terminals and a mains cable. THAT IS IT!!!!!!! That is totally DIYable and a no brainer. You can connect up the combi to a 3 pin plug and Part P has nor been violated. So which are you? A heating engineer, as you've often claimed, or one of the amateurs you so despise? I think we deserve to be told. But I suspect you're a plumber. All that talk of flex... -- *Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Doctor Evil wrote: If you can't wire up a zone valve, you are not a competent person to do any electrics at all. It is less complicated than wiring a lighting point. Total crap. A combi requires one flex connected to two terminals and a mains cable. THAT IS IT!!!!!!! That is totally DIYable and a no brainer. You can connect up the combi to a 3 pin plug and Part P has nor been violated. ....yes again he comes in with totaly inane off topic babble... just read... So which are you? A heating engineer, as you've often claimed, or one of the amateurs you so despise? I think we deserve to be told. But I suspect you're a plumber. All that talk of flex... ......and that has a lot to do with wiring a combi? .. ...the men with the white coats should be called in... _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Doctor Evil wrote: With the extra installation costs well outweighing any savings against a larger boiler. No. He failed again.... sad but true.... .....after miserably failing he is coming back again.....I wonder why? Ok then. I don't claim to be a pro. So I'm asking you to give some real world total costs of installing two combis against one combi of comparable output. Since you claim to have done this on many occasions, you should be able to delve into your accounts and give actual examples. Min Requirements: two zones 2 showers 1 bath Limited space in house. W-B Junior £493 + 41 flue flue = £534 x 2 = £1,068. If you look around you get two boilers for less than this. gives 20 l/min combined W-B 440 Highflow £1098 gives 18 l.min Too low so, doesn't make it. This is a stored water combi, so an infinitely continuous combi with 20 litres/min will be: W-B Greenstar 40kW combi £1166 gives 16 l/min Too low so, doesn't make it. To get 20 litres/min you need to go up to ECO-Hometec and spend about £1,700 - £1,800 So, a saving of about £750 to start with. Then no zone valves, wiring centre, etc to get two zones. More savings. A two combi set up just needs 2 stat/programmers, what you would need with any 2 zone setup. Boiler W-B Greenstar £784 zone valves, wiring, cyl stats, wiring centre etc. approx £150 plus for good makes. unvented cylinder/heat bank, (£984 for 250 litre Megalflo) extra piping and fittings, could be £200-300 (copper is at a world high) Total £2218, which is over twice the price of two combi's. If you go to a 300 litre Megaflo to get some time in two simultaneous showers then even more. As two combis will supply two showers all day and for ever, pumping 48 kW into DHW for ever. The cylinder cannot compete in performance here. Then you have a large cylinder taking up valuable space Then there is the advantages I have already highlighted: 1. Low capital cost of installation 2. Running cost, upstairs heating can be off most of the day. 3. No waiting for showers 4. Showers don't run out of hot water 5. Simple zoned heating system with independent time zones. 6. Different rad temperatures on different floors. 7. Less controls to go wrong, with accompanying down time and expense. (no zone valves and the likes) 8. Always heat and hot water. Two combi's means built-in redundancy. 9. Release valuable space for storage. Only disadvantage is slightly more expensive on regular servicing, which is overwhelmingly offset by the above points Now go away and think about it, hard I know, and don't back with caber tossing silliness. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
4. Showers don't run out of hot water They wouldn't need to, given the time needed to get clean in those dribbles. Well, doh. You put two showers in the same enclosure. Then you can wash both sides of you at once. Or if you have a bigger enclosure you can have a two-person shower with separate temperature control for each person. Owain |
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote: But I suspect you're a plumber. All that talk of flex... .....and that has a lot to do with wiring a combi? .. ...the men with the white coats should be called in... You've just proved your lack of any basic understanding of electrics. But then, you'll not find the finer points easily on a website... -- *Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote: Ok then. I don't claim to be a pro. So I'm asking you to give some real world total costs of installing two combis against one combi of comparable output. Since you claim to have done this on many occasions, you should be able to delve into your accounts and give actual examples. Snip the brochure prices. Now go away and think about it, hard I know, and don't back with caber tossing silliness. I asked about real world installation costs - ie including labour. Yet again you give an answer to the question you'd prefer to have read. -- *Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Doctor Evil wrote: Ok then. I don't claim to be a pro. So I'm asking you to give some real world total costs of installing two combis against one combi of comparable output. Since you claim to have done this on many occasions, you should be able to delve into your accounts and give actual examples. ......after cutting the caber, he is back..... Snip the brochure prices. ....he is snipping now... Now go away and think about it, hard I know, and don't back with caber tossing silliness. Good advice from me above there....then he spoils it all by being distracted by cabers..... I asked about ....and he comes out with silliness, after me telling him not too. Would you Adam & Eve it! Well I tried with our resident caber tosser, but to no avail........ Sad but true. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Doctor Evil wrote: ...our redisnet cabnbver tosser says...yes he does.... But I suspect you're a plumber. All that talk of flex... ....I quite rightly replied..... .....and that has a lot to do with wiring a combi? .. ...the men with the white coats should be called in... ....and he continues with inane babble... You've just proved your lack of .....I know what you are all thinking, and sad it is to read too. Sad but true. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
"Owain" wrote in message . .. ...our resident caber tosser said.......silly I know... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: 4. Showers don't run out of hot water They wouldn't need to, given the time | needed to get clean in those dribbles. ...well some imaginative suggestions... Well, doh. You put two showers in the same enclosure. Then you can wash both sides of you at once. Or if you have a bigger enclosure you can have a two-person shower with separate temperature control for each person. ....fun too... _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
In article ,
Owain wrote: 4. Showers don't run out of hot water They wouldn't need to, given the time needed to get clean in those dribbles. Well, doh. You put two showers in the same enclosure. Then you can wash both sides of you at once. Or if you have a bigger enclosure you can have a two-person shower with separate temperature control for each person. :-) On the one hand, it may be hot, and on the other hand, cold? -- *Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes Which planet are you on to-day? Dunno, but I think he must have stopped taking his medication. -- ..sigmonster on vacation |
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