Just noticed Ideal do a small condensing boiler, the Mini HE, but I
can't find any more than a consumer glossy about it on their website
(http://www.idealboilers.com/cards/Co...0Mini%20HE.pdf).

Rather worryingly this says "Based on a familiar product (mini C)" so I
wonder if it's the bog-standard non-condi with a secondary heat
echanger. Even if not I wonder if the PCB is to Ideal's notorious
Icos/Isar PCB quality.

Any info/experience?

John Stumbles wrote:

Just noticed Ideal do a small condensing boiler, the Mini HE, but I
can't find any more than a consumer glossy about it on their website
(http://www.idealboilers.com/cards/Co...0Mini%20HE.pdf).

Its hardly any smaller than the Isar... In fact it is wider!


--
Cheers,

John.

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From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.

I recently was called out to one in Whitby (some 20 miles away) that was "leaking". When I got there though I spent 2 hours I couldn't get it to leak the slightest drop, so I went home. Next morning when I had plenty to do (a regular boiler to fit in the morning for a 91 year old and a condensing combi to fit in the afternoon) the call came that the boiler no longer worked. NATURALLY IT WAS ASSUMED THAT SINCE i HAD HAD THE FRONT OFF i WAS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS PERFORMANCE OF THE BOILER. So reluctantly off I sped 20 miles. The electrodes required a clean, they were just waiting for the guy to remove a screw before they finally decided to gum up enough not to ignite the boiler. Still no leak, so off I go racing home to join my boys who had started the regular boiler job. I had been so preoccupied with boilers that I'd forgotten to check the fuel guage and on the Whitby road with no mobile phone signal I found myself walking for fuel.

Later that day (after regular boiler and half way through the combi) gentleman in Whitby phoned in geat distress as his boiler was flooding. Well that day I had an estimate to do to replace an Ideal e-type with a combi, and a second hand gas cooker to install (a service I offer a local second hand shop, which takes me about 1 1/2 to 2 hours since the gas cocks all need servicing to do it correctly. It was 9pm before I was free to treck over to Whitby again.

The boiler was soaking wet. (Unwise of Ideal to place the pcb in a tray underneath the whole kit and caboodle!)

It transpired that the flue is north facing, and in Whitby North facing is not a good position to put a flue in. The flu gases of a condensing boiler have cooler vapour than a regular boiler, the wind was imediately taking the vapour as it emerged from the inner duct and whamming it back into the boiler through the outer duct. There is no mechanism within a condensing boiler to safely drain condensate from the outer flue duct and it finds it's own way to the bottom of the boiler where it negotiates the pcb and drips eventually onto the kitchen worktop.

On giving the boiler a thorough take down it transpired that a huge amount of aluminium oxide deposits were bunging up the works. (boiler only 4 years old) The burner was very rusty, but still safe to use (though how long I couldn't say).

This was a very specific and strange scenario but not helped by the construction of the boiler, the advantage of which is to allow fitting into a small space in a fitted kitchen, the disadvantage of enormous repair / service costs and propensity to become blocked with aluminium oxide.

I wouldn't fit one for anyone, and I wouldn't have one in my home. I'd give precedence to boiler placement, with a view to making service calls pleasurable and short. After all you pay by the hour.
/================================================== ===============\
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Paul Barker wrote:

This was a very specific and strange scenario but not helped by the
construction of the boiler, the advantage of which is to allow fitting
into a small space in a fitted kitchen, the disadvantage of enormous

I fitted my Isar for just that reason... it was one of the few that
would fit in the available space. I guess time will tell how it fares!



--
Cheers,

John.

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Paul Barker wrote:
From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.

That's what impressed me (in a negative sense) about the ISAR: it's a
real b*gg*r to get at anything much.

I'm not convinced that access at the sides is necessarily essential, as
long as the machine is well designed with access to necessary parts from
the front & below. While I agree that access to the sides of boilers
would be ideal I think realistically, with the increasing pressure to
squeeze boilers into fitted kitchens these days, that's something we'll
have to live with. The few Bosch Worcesters I've dealt with have seemed
good from this point of view, though as a newbie fitter I'll admit I
have little experience yet.

---8--- nightmare war story snipped :-) ---8---

I wouldn't fit one for anyone, and I wouldn't have one in my home. I'd
give precedence to boiler placement, with a view to making service
calls pleasurable and short. After all you pay by the hour.

Have you found a condensing combi that is well designed for servicing?
(Bonus points for one that's a 1-person lift ;-))

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:00:44 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:


That's what impressed me (in a negative sense) about the ISAR: it's a
real b*gg*r to get at anything much.

I fitted my first ISAR last week (hybrid system with the combi being used
to speed up the flow to kitchen sink tap) whilst still working the
cylinder for a better bath filling performance.

It's only when you fit one you really know the pros and cons.

If I were to compare it to fitting the Valliant then I would say there
were some things better and somethings worse.

Plus - easy to connect flue no drilling 3mm pilot holes for self tappers.
Minus - no internal or external trim ring for the flue so has to be made
good inside and outside.

Plus - mounting frame allows for better support when covering the old
balanced flue hole.
Minus - there is very restricted access for the wrench to connect the
water and gas connection into or out of the frame.

Plus - Fully automatic combustion system - no pressures to check or
adjust.
Minus- Can't switch off the DHW preheat function to save gas.
No internal filling loop provided.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.

Ideal boast that no part takes more than 15 minutes replace.




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IMM wrote:
"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.


Ideal boast that no part takes more than 15 minutes replace.

Some (scant) consolation given recent discussion on their PCB quality :-)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:50:19 +0000, IMM wrote:


"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.

Ideal boast that no part takes more than 15 minutes replace.

This is doubtless just possible since the whole boiler could be changed
in 15 minutes:-
The flue is one screw and it then unclips.
The electrics plug in.
Isolate and drain boiler. (internal drain point provided).
Isolate gas.
Uncouple 4 water connections, 1 gas connection, 1 releif connection
1 condensate drain.
lift boiler off mounting frame!

I was thinking as I was installing it that the whole things had been
carefully designed to minimise the time to swap the entire unit.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.


Ideal boast that no part takes more than 15 minutes replace.

Some (scant) consolation given recent discussion on their PCB quality :-)

British Gas would not sell the Isar and Ocos when they came out because of
pcb problems. The intro of new boards has changed that.



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"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:50:19 +0000, IMM wrote:


"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.

Ideal boast that no part takes more than 15 minutes replace.

This is doubtless just possible since the whole boiler could be changed
in 15 minutes:-
The flue is one screw and it then unclips.
The electrics plug in.
Isolate and drain boiler. (internal drain point provided).
Isolate gas.
Uncouple 4 water connections, 1 gas connection, 1 releif connection
1 condensate drain.
lift boiler off mounting frame!

I was thinking as I was installing it that the whole things had been
carefully designed to minimise the time to swap the entire unit.

You are right. With many Ideal's it is possible to remove the whole unit
and work on it much easier.



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Ed Sirett wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:50:19 +0000, IMM wrote:


"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.

Ideal boast that no part takes more than 15 minutes replace.


This is doubtless just possible since the whole boiler could be changed
in 15 minutes:-
The flue is one screw and it then unclips.
The electrics plug in.
Isolate and drain boiler. (internal drain point provided).
Isolate gas.
Uncouple 4 water connections, 1 gas connection, 1 releif connection
1 condensate drain.
lift boiler off mounting frame!

2-man lift though, unless you were cast in the Schwartzenegger(sp?)
mould :-)


I was thinking as I was installing it that the whole things had been
carefully designed to minimise the time to swap the entire unit.

In article ,
Dr Evil wrote:
With many Ideal's it is possible to remove the whole unit and work on it
much easier.

With many Ideal's what?

--
*I must always remember that I'm unique, just like everyone else. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

You are right. With many Ideal's it is possible to remove the whole unit
and work on it much easier.

Ah, that would be where I went wrong then, also lack of familiarity with the beast and topsy turvy instrauctions which have you dotting about from page to page a bit like a Haynes car manual but with uninformed line diagrams instead of dark photographs that you can't make out a thing from.

30 minutes to read the manual and fifteen minutes to get at the parts once you've sussed out the route.

Next time'll go easier granted.

Still prefer my Buderus. Takes a strong man to hike it up to the wall though and requires more of an airing cupboard than a kitchen wall unit for space.

First one I did there was me walking up the steps blindly bear hugging Buderus while assistant pushed on my back so if I over balanced I was launched into wall. Ended up it thumped the wall in about the right place and dropped onto it's mounting by pure blind chance.

Second one assistant got the job of taking all the weight while I acted like the trapeeze artist hovering above him and boiler to giude boiler top into location on mounting.

It's all part of the fun.Least everything is well seperated by everything else by a goodly amount of space and enough room to swing a spanner.

I say stuff vanity and klitchen units and all that, make your house fit your boiler.

Paul Barker wrote:

It's all part of the fun.Least everything is well seperated by
everything else by a goodly amount of space and enough room to swing a
spanner.

I say stuff vanity and klitchen units and all that, make your house fit
your boiler.

I have noted boiler manual tend to gloss over the practicalities of
actually hanging the thing, in much the same way Haynes manuals casualy
direct you to the page entitled "removing engine" ;-)

I found that my Isar was an easy enough lift so long as I did not need
to put it anywhere awkward.... like on the wall, in a corner, right
beside a kitchen cabinet, while working over a long stretch of
unsupported worktop that was strong enough to take the boiler, but not
me and the boiler!

(the solution was to pile plastic tool/drill cases etc onto the worktop
and place the boiler on them. Then push the whole pile back toward the
wall, then, while up a stepladder, place your knee on the top case to
stop it shooting forward, and rock the top of the boiler back towards
the wall and align with the frame, now get assistant to slowly withdraw
the middle plastic case so the boiler descends onto its hook)

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:52:44 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:50:19 +0000, IMM wrote:


"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

From this gas fitter's point of view, I hope this story will be of
interest to you.

I like boilers which are designed with a view that repair men/women
have easy access to parts for changing/servicing. One essential
characteristic is that three sides of the outer case come away whether
as one or in three parts is not important. Eevry part of these little
Ideal boilers tend to be jammed in tight, with many parts requiring
removal to access any other part, yet this removal is hindered by the
close proximity of side panels that are fixed and unremovable.

Ideal boast that no part takes more than 15 minutes replace.


This is doubtless just possible since the whole boiler could be changed
in 15 minutes:-
The flue is one screw and it then unclips.
The electrics plug in.
Isolate and drain boiler. (internal drain point provided).
Isolate gas.
Uncouple 4 water connections, 1 gas connection, 1 releif connection
1 condensate drain.
lift boiler off mounting frame!

2-man lift though, unless you were cast in the Schwartzenegger(sp?)
mould :-)


I would like to point add that my observation about the relative ease
to exchange the whole unit was not so as to facilitate maintenance. Rather
I suspect so that manufacturers can simply send out duos (only one of
whom has to be registered) whose function is to swop over units under
warranty with minimal cost. This is rather better than letting them loose
on (multiple mis-)diagnosis and subsequent call backs.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:13:34 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Paul Barker wrote:

It's all part of the fun.Least everything is well seperated by
everything else by a goodly amount of space and enough room to swing a
spanner.

I say stuff vanity and klitchen units and all that, make your house fit
your boiler.

I have noted boiler manual tend to gloss over the practicalities of
actually hanging the thing, in much the same way Haynes manuals casualy
direct you to the page entitled "removing engine" ;-)

Or 'separate the two halves of the propshaft' ....

cheers,
Pete.

[quote=John Rumm]

I found that my Isar was an easy enough lift so long as I did not need
to put it anywhere awkward.... like on the wall, in a corner, right
beside a kitchen cabinet, while working over a long stretch of
unsupported worktop that was strong enough to take the boiler, but not
me and the boiler!

(the solution was to pile plastic tool/drill cases etc onto the worktop
and place the boiler on them. Then push the whole pile back toward the
wall, then, while up a stepladder, place your knee on the top case to
stop it shooting forward, and rock the top of the boiler back towards
the wall and align with the frame, now get assistant to slowly withdraw
the middle plastic case so the boiler descends onto its hook)

--
Cheers,

John.

Nice story, but if you had to go to those lengths to hang a rinky dink little Isar just picture me up a ladder on my tod with a boiler twice it's size and weight, with more money at steak.

Paul Barker wrote:

it's size and weight, with more money at steak.

That's the solution, spend more money on steak! Mmmmmm... feeling hungry
now...

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Paul Barker writes:

Still prefer my Buderus. Takes a strong man to hike it up to the wall
though and requires more of an airing cupboard than a kitchen wall unit
for space.

First one I did there was me walking up the steps blindly bear hugging
Buderus while assistant pushed on my back so if I over balanced I was
launched into wall. Ended up it thumped the wall in about the right
place and dropped onto it's mounting by pure blind chance.

Yes I had a few hairy moments doing a single-man lift of my Keston
into place, which I had decided to mount near the ceiling to make
most use of the space underneath. It's a 43kg lift, which when added
to my weight (not excessive), exceeded the max weight the ladder
was rated for, which was bending in all sorts of strange ways;-)
I had already decided that if it started going in the wrong direction,
I was just going to leap out of the way -- wasn't worth attempting to
save £600 for another one at the cost of doing my back in. ISTR it
did take two attempts to get it hung on what seemed to be the rather
feeble supplied bracket for the weight, but it's been there a few years
now without falling down.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Paul Barker wrote:

Still prefer my Buderus. Takes a strong man to hike it up to the wall
though

Shame - one I looked at seemed quite small (and, I asumed, light). It
was a display unit in one of our local PMs, and it was some time ago and
I didn't note what it was: maybe it was a small heating-only unit not a
big combi.