A couple of years ago, I couldn't find DIY solar water heating kits (you
could build your own manky system Blue Peter style, giving the satisfaction
of true DIY but little else, I fancy, or pay someone a huge amount to
install one).

Having revisited the scene I find kits are now available eg:

http://www.solartwin.com/

Just taking this as an example, a DIY kit, with a simple plumbing
arrangement (for those of us with tanks!), with an additional pv panel to
drive the pump, is £1900.

I would surmise savings in the region £100-200/year (guess) giving a payback
time of 10+years.

Does anyone have experience of such kits, with regard to savings, and this
kit in particular, with regard to its quality?

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...
A couple of years ago, I couldn't find DIY solar water heating kits (you
could build your own manky system Blue Peter style, giving the
satisfaction
of true DIY but little else, I fancy, or pay someone a huge amount to
install one).

Having revisited the scene I find kits are now available eg:

http://www.solartwin.com/

Just taking this as an example, a DIY kit, with a simple plumbing
arrangement (for those of us with tanks!), with an additional pv panel to
drive the pump, is £1900.

I would surmise savings in the region £100-200/year (guess) giving a
payback
time of 10+years.

Does anyone have experience of such kits, with regard to savings, and this
kit in particular, with regard to its quality?

I haven't experience of it myself as I'm building my own "Blue Peter" one
:-) I certainly liked the pv panel for the pump and have copied this.

A while ago somebody on the www.periodproperty.co.uk forum gave the
Solartwin one the tumbs up over others. Try having a search on google for
the thread.

.."Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

Having revisited the scene I find kits are now available eg:

http://www.solartwin.com/

Just taking this as an example, a DIY kit, with a simple plumbing
arrangement (for those of us with tanks!), with an additional pv panel to
drive the pump, is £1900.

I would surmise savings in the region £100-200/year (guess) giving a payback
time of 10+years.

http://www.solartwin.com/payback_calculator.htm
suggests about 1000 kWhr a year, which is reasonable.
They only suggest £100 a year saving in exceptional circumstances.

Bob Mannix typed:

A couple of years ago, I couldn't find DIY solar water heating kits
(you could build your own manky system Blue Peter style, giving the
satisfaction of true DIY but little else,

Er
But that costs £1.9k, my Blue Peter DIY one cost £25 its been working for
over 15 years and tonight mid January ive got water at 26.4c in the
collector tank, from water at 8.5c.
sense people ingenuity money some lacking. ;-(

--
Mark

"Mark" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix typed:

A couple of years ago, I couldn't find DIY solar water heating kits
(you could build your own manky system Blue Peter style, giving the
satisfaction of true DIY but little else,

Er
But that costs £1.9k, my Blue Peter DIY one cost £25 its been working for
over 15 years and tonight mid January ive got water at 26.4c in the
collector tank, from water at 8.5c.
sense people ingenuity money some lacking. ;-(

It was time rather than money/ingenuity but I guess a "manky system Blue
Peter" comment deserved a snotty response from someone who had built one
that works ). I had already decided it was too expensive but wanted others
comments. At least I was asking the question!

Could you furnish any diagrams on your system? The commercial one referred
to did have the advantage of being (almost) entirely non-invasive to the
existing system.

Cheers,


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

--
Mark

Bob Mannix typed:

Could you furnish any diagrams on your system? The commercial one
referred to did have the advantage of being (almost) entirely
non-invasive to the existing system.

Well ive got a few things going in my favour, I live on the south coast and
in a very sheltered valley the house having had many alterations over the
years has a roof ideally suited being a u shaped /\_/\
Theirs nothing special about the design, it's the same as the conventional
example shown on http://www.solartwin.com/ but all the parts were obtained
from boot sales or farm auctions, Its got 4x 6ft radiators in a wooden frame
with Perspex covers sited in the V of the roof facing S-SW.
Pump is 12v and powered by elec solar panel 1x1m, the only mod I had to do
was the pump motor stalled when Volts dropped below 5v,
(which also meant that there wasn't sufficient heat/light either)
fixed with 2 Zener's and relay.
We use a LOT of hot water during the summer (three B+B rooms) and hot water
is by oil boiler so every 1degree saved is worth while IF the initial outlay
is modest.
Winter I don't care as we have a HUGE wood burning stove.
HTH

--
Mark

In message , Mark
writes
Bob Mannix typed:

A couple of years ago, I couldn't find DIY solar water heating kits
(you could build your own manky system Blue Peter style, giving the
satisfaction of true DIY but little else,

Er
But that costs £1.9k, my Blue Peter DIY one cost £25 its been working for
over 15 years and tonight mid January ive got water at 26.4c in the
collector tank, from water at 8.5c.
sense people ingenuity money some lacking. ;-(

You'd better post some details then

--
geoff

Bob Mannix wrote:
A couple of years ago, I couldn't find DIY solar water heating kits (you
could build your own manky system Blue Peter style, giving the satisfaction
of true DIY but little else, I fancy, or pay someone a huge amount to
install one).

Having revisited the scene I find kits are now available eg:

http://www.solartwin.com/

Just taking this as an example, a DIY kit, with a simple plumbing
arrangement (for those of us with tanks!), with an additional pv panel to
drive the pump, is £1900.

I would surmise savings in the region £100-200/year (guess) ...

I doubt you'd save that much: we're paying c. £40 a month i.e. £480 pa
on gas for our 3-bed semi, of which most is likely to be space heating.
If 1/4 of that is water heating of which perhpas half could be supplied
by solar then we'd save £60 pa.

... giving a payback time of 10+years.

Only at 0% interest rates :-)

If you borrowed at 5% interest to install it you'd be paying £95 on the
loan in the 1st year (decreasing as the loan is paid off) so taking into
acount the lifetime of the solar system you'd quite lilely never make
anything back on it. (And if you had the money to hand already you'd
have to compare with what you could get investing it in a long-term
savings account.)

Technically, the solartwin system also constrains you to an open vented
system with a hot water cylinder (or more expense putting in heat stores
etc) so when you come to replace your CH boiler (with a shiny new
condensing one) you can't easily go for a combi.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix wrote:
snip
I doubt you'd save that much: we're paying c. £40 a month i.e. £480 pa
on gas for our 3-bed semi, of which most is likely to be space heating.
If 1/4 of that is water heating of which perhpas half could be supplied
by solar then we'd save £60 pa.

... giving a payback time of 10+years.

Only at 0% interest rates :-)

This is very true.

snip

Technically, the solartwin system also constrains you to an open vented
system with a hot water cylinder (or more expense putting in heat stores
etc) so when you come to replace your CH boiler (with a shiny new
condensing one) you can't easily go for a combi.

/duck
hooray!
duck/

I guess it's Blue Peter route (see other response) or nothing then.

Cheers,


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Just taking this as an example, a DIY kit, with a simple plumbing
arrangement (for those of us with tanks!), with an additional pv
panel to
drive the pump, is =A31900.

Excessively expensive. Doesnt have a hope in hell of paying back.

Solar heating can payback very well indeed, but only if you design it
right. I have never seen a commerical system that I would describe as
desgiedn right.

For some odd reason, most solar engineers live in a world where cost
and payback are complete non issues. This problem has dogged solar
energy all along.

There is a good ng for this, alt.solar thermal.

Solar HW is quite tough to make pay; it can be done, but most systems
dont achieve it.

Solar flat panel space heating OTOH captures vastly more heat, costs
less to install, is simple to blue peter, and has excellant payback
figures as long as you design it sensibly, which is easy compared to
DHW heating.

Theres another good payer: a crossflow heat exchanger on the shower.
Warm water going down the drain heats the cold supply to the shower,
result is you use much less hot water. Payback can be under a year,
depends on level of use.


NT

wrote:
Just taking this as an example, a DIY kit, with a simple plumbing
arrangement (for those of us with tanks!), with an additional pv

panel to

drive the pump, is £1900.


Excessively expensive. Doesnt have a hope in hell of paying back.

Solar heating can payback very well indeed, but only if you design it
right. I have never seen a commerical system that I would describe as
desgiedn right.

For some odd reason, most solar engineers live in a world where cost
and payback are complete non issues. This problem has dogged solar
energy all along.

There is a good ng for this, alt.solar thermal.

Solar HW is quite tough to make pay; it can be done, but most systems
dont achieve it.

Solar flat panel space heating OTOH captures vastly more heat, costs
less to install, is simple to blue peter, and has excellant payback
figures as long as you design it sensibly, which is easy compared to
DHW heating.

And passive solar design of newbuild (or occasionally retrofit) can be
even better vfm. (When we went to Ladakh one little beacon of optimism
against the rather depressing tide of inappropriate 1st-world model
'development' of that delightful 'subsistence economy' was Helena
Norberg-Hodge's version of our CAT who were promoting such small-scale
appropriate technologies as trombe wall solar heating which could
achieve remarkable increases in comfort in buildings for the price of a
modest amount of glass and wood. (See about halfway down:
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC17/NHodge.htm)

And passive solar design of newbuild (or occasionally retrofit) can
be
even better vfm.

The Victorians put a lot more thought into this area of building design
- sometimes. Trouble with this sort of thing is its not a universal
plug in, it requires understadning and design skills to work out how to
do it and when. And today competition on basis of cost is pretty harsh,
and rules out such unnecessary skilled input in nearly all new builds.

The publishing of a set of standard proven designs, along with
checklists for each to see when you can use them, plus payback figures
etc, could change this. But I've not seen such a thing anywhere.

Regrettably solar seems to be the domain of those with insufficient
awareness of real world finances.

The fact is that among the sea of unlikelies, there are some solar
designs that pay back excellantly. It seems only a matter of time
before more widespread awareness occurs - though it doesnt seem to have
got anywhere yet.


NT

wrote in message
oups.com...
And passive solar design of newbuild (or occasionally retrofit) can
be
even better vfm.

The Victorians put a lot more thought into this area of building design
- sometimes.

Yep - the foyer of the Alexander palace is a fine example of when they got
it right.

Pity about some other parts of the building :-)

wrote in message
oups.com...
And passive solar design of newbuild (or occasionally retrofit) can
be
even better vfm.

The Victorians put a lot more thought into this area of building design
- sometimes. Trouble with this sort of thing is its not a universal
plug in, it requires understadning and design skills to work out how to
do it and when. And today competition on basis of cost is pretty harsh,
and rules out such unnecessary skilled input in nearly all new builds.

The publishing of a set of standard proven designs, along with
checklists for each to see when you can use them, plus payback figures
etc, could change this. But I've not seen such a thing anywhere.

Regrettably solar seems to be the domain of those with insufficient
awareness of real world finances.

The fact is that among the sea of unlikelies, there are some solar
designs that pay back excellantly. It seems only a matter of time
before more widespread awareness occurs - though it doesnt seem to have
got anywhere yet.

The US government were on the verge of introducing large scale solar
research. A report stated most of the US energy needs could come from
solar....in 1952. It was dropped for the Atoms for Peace garbage. Again a
major report indicated the same in 1980. In the final days of Carter he
stared the ball rolling. Regan scrapped it and even took the solar panels
off the White House roof. Bush has suppressed any notion of large scale
solar research.

So in the USA vote Democrat not oil company lackeys Republican. Similar
here, but on a smaller scale. The Tories pander to big oil, while Labour
have an effective wind power generation project under way and increased home
insulation levels, and are still increasing them, to levels we though only
Sweden would do.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Theres another good payer: a crossflow heat exchanger on the shower.
Warm water going down the drain heats the cold supply to the shower,
result is you use much less hot water. Payback can be under a year,
depends on level of use.

Totally agree but big problem here is most BCOs throw a wobbly at such an
installation as it is beyond their experience. They 'understand' drainage
and don't like thinks out of the ordinary.

In message . com,
writes
Theres another good payer: a crossflow heat exchanger on the shower.
Warm water going down the drain heats the cold supply to the shower,
result is you use much less hot water. Payback can be under a year,
depends on level of use.

Are such crossflow heat exchangers easily available? I've searched via
Google but could only find air-venting ones.

--
dave @ stejonda

Are such crossflow heat exchangers easily available? I've searched
via
Google but could only find air-venting ones.

I'm not familiar with anyone selling them yet, it would likely be a diy
job. But its not very difficult.

You'd need 2-3 ft of copper drain sized pipe, some microbore, and
solder. Wrap microbore round the big copper pipe, but rather than one
piece, use 4 in parallel. Solder them in place. Use a 4 way manifold at
each end of the microbores, so the cold water flow goes thru the 4 in
parallel.

The cold supply for the shower goes into the microbores at the drain
end of the thing, and comes out at the plughole end, going to the
shower.

It cuts right back on energy use, and makes your tank of HW last
substantialy longer. Payback varies according to use, but maybe a year
or so, that sort of region.


NT

wrote in message
oups.com...
Are such crossflow heat exchangers easily available? I've searched
via
Google but could only find air-venting ones.

I'm not familiar with anyone selling them yet, it would likely be a diy
job. But its not very difficult.

Wouldn't the ones that both Andy and IMM recommended above a heat bank work
?

Wouldn't the ones that both Andy and IMM recommended above a heat
bank work
?

Fraid I dont know what youre referring to there.

Bear in mind the shower waste goes through it, so the shape needs to be
conducive to free flow, roddable, not pool, and be fittable to the
shower waste piping. ie a bit of pipe would be ideal.


NT

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:31:00 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

A couple of years ago, I couldn't find DIY solar water heating kits (you
could build your own manky system Blue Peter style, giving the satisfaction
of true DIY but little else, I fancy, or pay someone a huge amount to
install one).

Having revisited the scene I find kits are now available eg:

http://www.solartwin.com/

Just taking this as an example, a DIY kit, with a simple plumbing
arrangement (for those of us with tanks!), with an additional pv panel to
drive the pump, is £1900.

I would surmise savings in the region £100-200/year (guess) giving a payback
time of 10+years.

Does anyone have experience of such kits, with regard to savings, and this
kit in particular, with regard to its quality?

Hi,

Vacuum tube collectors are available at fairly reasonable prices:

http://search.ebay.co.uk/solar-heater_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQcatref ZC6QQsoloctogZ9QQsotrtypeZ1QQsotrvalueZ1QQsadistan ceZ200QQsopostalZKT89AXQQsosortpropertyZ1QQcoactio nZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch

There's plenty of info on the WWW about making a solar water heating
system, at a guess the rest of the parts to complete a system would
cost £50-100, given a water cylinder with an indirect coil is already
available.

cheers,
Pete.