A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a big
old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor, peg
tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around and
what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last 10
years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not need
major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular needs
professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the 'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the best of
my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within the
last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon other
parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.

Nick wrote:

A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a big
old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor, peg
tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around and
what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last 10
years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not need
major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular needs
professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the 'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the best of
my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within the
last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon other
parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.


Where are you nick?

If in east anglia, have some good carpenters who can fix this stuff.

I'd say a structural engineer would be first port of call - pay for a
full structural survey. A couple of hundred probably and worth every penny.

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:46:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

If in east anglia, have some good carpenters who can fix this stuff.

Thats true in other parts of the country too

I'd say a structural engineer would be first port of call - pay for a
full structural survey. A couple of hundred probably and worth every penny.

Agreed (is this a first NP?!) but be sure you speak to a structural
engineer who is experienced in old buildings like this. Call the SPAB
free helpline to get a list of names. www.spab.org.uk

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Nick wrote:

A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a
big
old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor,
peg
tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around
and
what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last
10
years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not
need
major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular
needs
professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings
are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central
to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are
morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and
this is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the
'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the
best of
my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within
the
last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon
other
parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.


Where are you nick?

If in east anglia, have some good carpenters who can fix this stuff.

I'd say a structural engineer would be first port of call - pay for a
full structural survey. A couple of hundred probably and worth every
penny.


Thank you for the sound advice.
I'm in Bucks, not a long way from Heathrow (unfortunately).
I guess a full structural survey is a good way to start into this venture.
I'd be pleased if a couple of hundred would cover it but I fear that won't
be the case. Most certainly a couple of days as least.

Do you know of any good tilers ? I'm told there are about 120,000 in total
and some repair is urgently required. We used to use an American Indian
from Devon. Best tiler I have ever seen. He went off the scene some years
ago and all since have done more damage than good.

Nick.

The first thing to remember is that in a listed building, particularly of
that age, there is very little that can be legally done without getting
formal listed building consent from your local planning authority. Indeed is
a criminal offence to make many changes without such approval.
Unfortunately it means your will have to wade through a lot of bureaucracy.
You need to choose a structural engineer or surveyor who specialises in such
buildings. It does not come cheap and the figure quoted by someone else is
absurd.

Peter Crosland

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:24:01 -0000, "Nick"
wrote:


I'm in Bucks, not a long way from Heathrow (unfortunately).
I guess a full structural survey is a good way to start into this venture.
I'd be pleased if a couple of hundred would cover it but I fear that won't
be the case. Most certainly a couple of days as least.

You will find you are entirely within the grasp of the local
authority Listed Building Mafia. It would be foolhardy to spend
anything without speaking to them first (not that it will give you
any comfort - but it may save a small amount of money initially).

Do you know of any good tilers ?

Yes - two excellent ones in South Herts who do a lot of work in the
Sth Bucks area www.tk-tiling.com (also my neighbour, but their
workmanship is superb).

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Anna Kettle wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:46:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


If in east anglia, have some good carpenters who can fix this stuff.


Thats true in other parts of the country too

No it isn't, because I don't know of them Anna :-)



I'd say a structural engineer would be first port of call - pay for a
full structural survey. A couple of hundred probably and worth every penny.


Agreed (is this a first NP?!) but be sure you speak to a structural
engineer who is experienced in old buildings like this. Call the SPAB
free helpline to get a list of names. www.spab.org.uk


Indeed.


Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Nick wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Nick wrote:


A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a

big

old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor,

peg

tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around

and

what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last

10

years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not

need

major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular

needs

professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings

are

supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central

to

each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are

morticed/tenoned

to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and

this is

immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the

'arms'

have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the

best of

my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within

the

last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon

other

parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.



Where are you nick?

If in east anglia, have some good carpenters who can fix this stuff.

I'd say a structural engineer would be first port of call - pay for a
full structural survey. A couple of hundred probably and worth every

penny.


Thank you for the sound advice.
I'm in Bucks, not a long way from Heathrow (unfortunately).
I guess a full structural survey is a good way to start into this venture.
I'd be pleased if a couple of hundred would cover it but I fear that won't
be the case. Most certainly a couple of days as least.

No. It took an engineer less than a couple of hours to identify the
crucial weaknesses in my old cottage, and predct what I would find when
the walls were dismantled.

And come up with three suggestions all of which were sound, and two of
which had not occurred to me.




Do you know of any good tilers ? I'm told there are about 120,000 in total
and some repair is urgently required. We used to use an American Indian
from Devon. Best tiler I have ever seen. He went off the scene some years
ago and all since have done more damage than good.

There are many reputable tiling firms, but don't even go there until you
are sure you have a sound structure to pin them to.

Its vital that you stabilise the structure, and make good any rot, and
pin any weaknesses. In the meantimne all you should do is temporarily
make good anything that lets in water, but its not worth spending oodles
of cash on: Because I suspect that yu will need to strip back and make
good any rotten timber work, and if the structure is collapsing a bit,
use steel or whatever to pull it all back together - the engineer will
know the key vital areas - and maybe have to replace rotten roof timbers
as well.

Once you have done that get Anna to advise on re-doing the details - any
lathe an plaster walls that you have had to remove to get at vital bits
etcx..

She's the antique craftsman. I am just an engineer :-)

Though not specifically of the structural sort sadly.





Nick.

Peter Crosland wrote:

The first thing to remember is that in a listed building, particularly of
that age, there is very little that can be legally done without getting
formal listed building consent from your local planning authority. Indeed is
a criminal offence to make many changes without such approval.
Unfortunately it means your will have to wade through a lot of bureaucracy.
You need to choose a structural engineer or surveyor who specialises in such
buildings. It does not come cheap and the figure quoted by someone else is
absurd.

That was all it actually cost me,from such a firm.

Perhaps its absurd, and they were being nice.

It wasn't a detailed survey, just a 'what is happening, why, and what
are my options' Tht cost me about 150 quid.

The indicated costs involved were such that not being listed, I decided
to re-make most of the structure, and what I found when doing it made me
go for a complete rebuild ultimately. It wasn't that great a cottage,
but the location was fabulous.

you can see the result at www.larksrise.com if you like.

In the process I invoked the same engineers again to validate the new
structures. That cost 350 quid for a day or two of calculations.

Nothing compared to the final cost of doing the work.



Peter Crosland

Try:

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/cgi-...sing/forum2.pl

a discussion forum, but more oriented towards old buildings.
"An American Indian from Devon"?

The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the 'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side.

If I understand this correctly the construction method has created a
major weakness right at the point on the main beam where it needs to be
its strongest. Old timber is often bowed but that would have been a
gradual process when the structure was relatively young. A sudden
movement in old age suggests to me that the main beam has failed and is
now being held up by the floor above and the minor joists as much as by
any remaining stiffness of its own. If that is so you need to put in
Acro prop (or similar) to prevent the next stage of collapse. Don't
forget to spread the load if the lower floor is suspended or in any way
suspect.

If you have any heavy furniture above shift it at least to the edges of
the room but not until you have propped the beam.

--
Roger

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
The first thing to remember is that in a listed building, particularly of
that age, there is very little that can be legally done without getting
formal listed building consent from your local planning authority. Indeed
is
a criminal offence to make many changes without such approval.
Unfortunately it means your will have to wade through a lot of
bureaucracy.
You need to choose a structural engineer or surveyor who specialises in
such
buildings. It does not come cheap and the figure quoted by someone else
is
absurd.

Peter Crosland


I fear you are correct in all points mentioned.
Nick.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:24:01 -0000, "Nick"
wrote:


I'm in Bucks, not a long way from Heathrow (unfortunately).
I guess a full structural survey is a good way to start into this
venture.
I'd be pleased if a couple of hundred would cover it but I fear that
won't
be the case. Most certainly a couple of days as least.

You will find you are entirely within the grasp of the local
authority Listed Building Mafia. It would be foolhardy to spend
anything without speaking to them first (not that it will give you
any comfort - but it may save a small amount of money initially).

Do you know of any good tilers ?

Yes - two excellent ones in South Herts who do a lot of work in the
Sth Bucks area www.tk-tiling.com (also my neighbour, but their
workmanship is superb).

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Thank you,
I have been in the clutches of the planning dept. for some years. The
listed building mafia is all I need right now!
I will contact them, I mean the tiling firm!

Nick

Roger wrote:

The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the 'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side.


If I understand this correctly the construction method has created a
major weakness right at the point on the main beam where it needs to be
its strongest. Old timber is often bowed but that would have been a
gradual process when the structure was relatively young. A sudden
movement in old age suggests to me that the main beam has failed and is
now being held up by the floor above and the minor joists as much as by
any remaining stiffness of its own. If that is so you need to put in
Acro prop (or similar) to prevent the next stage of collapse. Don't
forget to spread the load if the lower floor is suspended or in any way
suspect.

If you have any heavy furniture above shift it at least to the edges of
the room but not until you have propped the beam.


I would not be so concerned.

My rooms - brand new in green oak - show that much gappage anyway from
shrinkage.

You get about 10" across a span of green oak - so a 9" beam could easily
show 1/2" each side.

My 12" beams after 2 years are showing about 1/4" each side, and there
is more to come yet, as its reckoned they do about 4" a year.

And 3" dip is nothing for a bit of timber of that size. May have been
cut from a not particularly good bit of timber when green and it may
have simply shrunk to that shape under drying out, and possibly central
heating.

If the main span is not rotten, then there is little to worry about I'd say.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

And 3" dip is nothing for a bit of timber of that size. May have been
cut from a not particularly good bit of timber when green and it may
have simply shrunk to that shape under drying out, and possibly central
heating.

If the main span is not rotten, then there is little to worry about I'd say.

I agree that if the movement is ancient there shouldn't be much to worry
about.

I don't have the original message to look at (on a different computer
240 miles away) but I thought the op said he thought the 3" sag was
recent in which case it is a totally different ball game. Timber gets
stiffer as it seasons and more brittle with age.

If it is some peculiar effect caused by recently installed central
heating why was only this beam effected and why when shrinkage along the
grain is so limited would the beam bow. The op could still differentiate
between bowing and breaking though. If the beam looks like 2 straight
lengths with a hinge in the middle then it is likely to cracked at the
hinge if it is merely bowed then the chances are it hasn't broken.

If the ends of the beam are merely built in to the wall there probably
will not be sufficient rigidity for the beam to behave as a 'built in'
beam in the engineering sense of the term and the bow should extend from
one wall to the other. If however there is sufficient mass at each end
(or the beams continue through the wall to provide a jetty for the upper
storey) the shape would be rather different with 2 convex sections
joined by a concave section. With only 3" deflection that might be
difficult to distinguish.

--
Roger

The Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings (SPAB) do lots of books
and leaflets and also have a free advice line - suggest you ring them.
www.spab.org.uk

Timber moves, and you shouldn't necessarily be concerned - it's not like a
modern house. It can absorb movement. In a house 100s of years old you
wouldn't expect every joint to be a perfect fit.Very few of mine are!

Installation of central heating often causes movement, even in wood 100s of
years old. So can the installation of other "modern" things like the
installation of double or secondary glazing, or the replacement of
lime-based mortars and plasters with portland cement-based materials.

You really need to find out if movement is still taking place (the usual
method is to stick little glass plates over the joints, and see if they
crack over time)

Compare your thick oak beams with a modern roof truss made of 2" or 3"
softwood and you will see that these old houses were massively over designed
in terms of loads on the beams. Your 12" beams are most unlikely to be about
to split!

I've lived in an old a half-timbered house for many years, and I too was
alarmed at many things when I first moved in. But after a while you realise
that "imperfections" abound, and in fact that is part of the character. The
roof line is so crooked it looks like it might collapse; some of the bedroom
floors slope so much you feel you are rolling out of bed; and, as you say,
some beam joints look like they are coming apart. But it's been standing
over 100s of years over extremes of weather, and it's not about to fall down
now!



"Nick" wrote in message
...
A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a big
old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor, peg
tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around and
what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last 10
years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not need
major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular needs
professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this
is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the 'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the best
of
my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within the
last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon other
parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.

I have been in the clutches of the planning dept. for some years. The
listed building mafia is all I need right now!
I will contact them, I mean the tiling firm!

Don't get too taken in by Peter's paranoia about the so called "listed
building mafia". The important thing is to make sure you ask them before you
start any work. That way if they do object you will not have to spend lots
more undoing work they won't authorise. Remember that they are human and
doing their job. A lot depends on how you treat them which seems a basic
point many ignore. Confrontational tactics seldom get the best results.

"Nick" wrote in message


I fear you are correct in all points mentioned.

He sounds well off I'm sure he has a kidney and a few other bits he can
auction of on E-Bay or somewhere to keep the heritage people happy.

Flog the thing and get a relic in Wales or a disused croft in the Outer
Hebrides. If you have to make repairs at least there is only you it will
all come down on. Or rather if it does, and you survive, you won't have
to reinstate it to someone else's specs.



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

It wasn't a detailed survey, just a 'what is happening, why, and what
are my options' Tht cost me about 150 quid.

Um, but a quick opinion on a non-listed building is very different from the
full structural survey on a grade 2 listed property, which is what you were
originally suggesting!

Christian.

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:49:21 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

It wasn't a detailed survey, just a 'what is happening, why, and what
are my options' Tht cost me about 150 quid.

Um, but a quick opinion on a non-listed building is very different from the
full structural survey on a grade 2 listed property, which is what you were
originally suggesting!

Did you get a written report or simply face to face talk? Reports take
time to write (punters expect you to be able to spell, for example) so
the cost goes up

The OP is in the London area so he will be charged more than you were
charged in Silly Suffolk

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:46:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I'd say a structural engineer would be first port of call - pay for a
full structural survey. A couple of hundred probably and worth every penny.

FMR No!

Opening the Yellow Pages and picking out any old structural engineer
is just asking for a complete cock-up with a timber frame, let alone
an old one. It'd be like asking EDS to build a big IT project - sure,
they do a job that covers the same title, but they've never actually
seen such a thing done right before.

Talk to a local big framing shop and ask for recommendations, or web
search down your own. But there are very few structural engineers with
timber frame experience, and you need it.

And they're all dead easy to fix anyway. There's a reason why places
like Avoncroft can afford to pull down derelict framed building and
re-erect it in a museum - they really are very simple to perform
"huge" repairs on, compared to more modern building methods.

Christian McArdle wrote:

It wasn't a detailed survey, just a 'what is happening, why, and what
are my options' Tht cost me about 150 quid.


Um, but a quick opinion on a non-listed building is very different from the
full structural survey on a grade 2 listed property, which is what you were
originally suggesting!

I was not suggesting a 'full structural survey' - merely a quick - thats
all fine mate, but I don;t like the look of that bit: Could be ten grand
to re-do that sodden rotting wall and timberwork to grade II and you
won't know till you try' sort of survey.


Whether my timber cottage was listed or not had no implications on the
survey cots - only on repair costs.

If it had been listed I would never have bought it, haveinga fair idea
of its state.

Which souns FAR worse than the OP's by the way. I had one ceiling that
was sagging a foot, main structural timbers cut through for doors, and
all pulled out of their soctes as well, old bits of larch and broom
poles used to repair rafters, peremannet rising damp, and rotten floor
boards, and, as we eventually found, only about 30% of the structural
timbers actually sound.

The survey that I had, was to do with a new roof. The engineer basically
said it wasn't strong enough to support anythng other than thatch, or
the shingles it had.

All advice was 'take it back to sound and start again, or knock it down
and start again.

We tried the first, and ended up with the second.


I am certain that a day with a competent engineer will let the OP now
whether he has a 2k bill, a 20k bill or a 200k bill on his hands.

That's the sort of knowledge you can get for a couple of hundred.

Ive got frieds in prtecsiley this sort of situation, and they are doing
it bit by bit. Tackling the most urgent first, and upgrading and
modernising as far as the listed building poeple will let them. Its not
so bad really.

It seems to average out at about 10k per room to replace and repair
strutural timber work, and replaster to a nice standard.





Christian.

Anna Kettle wrote:

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:49:21 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:


It wasn't a detailed survey, just a 'what is happening, why, and what
are my options' Tht cost me about 150 quid.

Um, but a quick opinion on a non-listed building is very different from the
full structural survey on a grade 2 listed property, which is what you were
originally suggesting!


Did you get a written report or simply face to face talk? Reports take
time to write (punters expect you to be able to spell, for example) so
the cost goes up


The first was a face to face, but the second time ws a full writen
report - both from Andrew Firebrace lot.

The first let me know waht I was in for: The second was in fact detailed
calculations on a particular piece of construction that we wanted to use.


The OP is in the London area so he will be charged more than you were
charged in Silly Suffolk


If its so silly why are you here Anna?

Silly is london. Suffolk is sane.


Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:46:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


I'd say a structural engineer would be first port of call - pay for a
full structural survey. A couple of hundred probably and worth every penny.


FMR No!

Opening the Yellow Pages and picking out any old structural engineer
is just asking for a complete cock-up with a timber frame, let alone
an old one. It'd be like asking EDS to build a big IT project - sure,
they do a job that covers the same title, but they've never actually
seen such a thing done right before.

Talk to a local big framing shop and ask for recommendations, or web
search down your own. But there are very few structural engineers with
timber frame experience, and you need it.

And they're all dead easy to fix anyway. There's a reason why places
like Avoncroft can afford to pull down derelict framed building and
re-erect it in a museum - they really are very simple to perform
"huge" repairs on, compared to more modern building methods.


Simple does not mean cheap however. In the final analysis I have known
someone completely dismantle, re foundtaon and re-erect (repaired)
timbers into a cottage, but it took him 5 years to do it.

Its a labour of lovce, not a commercial proposition.


One assumes also that the engineers have some knowledge of timber
structures. Round here most do, because we have a lot of them.

I accept that silly london engineers may not.

What you need is someone who can understand where the main structiral
elements are, and identfy if they are in serious danger of collapse.

Sometimes its noi more than 'oh dear, you need a steel cable between
there and there, wind it up and pull the ting back into shape, puts sme
steel brackets in, and make good the cracks' Or even 'well its moved,
but so what? Its all in sound shape.
Or ot mnay be 'blimey, all the sole plates have gone and judging by that
bit, half the uprights as well. hats mate is going to costyer'

THAT, I suggest is what the OP needs to know. Whether to tackle it at
all, or simply auction it off, and if so what sort of budget is going to
be required.

IME is down to wehther its 'cosmetic' 'quick fixable' or 'take it (half)
to pieces, prop, and repair'

If the latter, expect to spend a lot. More than a complete rebuild
perhaps. Maybe 150 a square foot.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:23:36 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The OP is in the London area so he will be charged more than you were
charged in Silly Suffolk


If its so silly why are you here Anna?

Silly is london. Suffolk is sane.

Indeed. London is madness but it is the better place to be if you want
to haul in the shekels

Mind you, life in London demands that the shekels be spewed out again
nearly as quickly whereas a nice country walk costs only shoe leather

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:25:44 -0000, Peter Scott wrote:

"Nick" wrote in message
...
A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a big
old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor, peg
tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around and
what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last 10
years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not need
major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular needs
professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this
is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the 'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the best
of
my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within the
last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon other
parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.

I wonder if the CH installed a decade ago has been slowly drying out and
shrinking the
timbers. This is obviously a lovely and valuable house. I think you should
employ a structural engineer to investigate the problem for you. He/she can
also be used to supervise any work that you have done. They charge about 3
to 6 %
of the contract price, perhaps more for smaller projects.

Hugh Lander's book The House Restorer's Guide is food for thought. It helps
newbies (and I was one) not to ruin and devalue fine old houses. Published
by
David and Charles ISBN 0 7153 8386 8

Good luck. Its worth it to live in a fine house.

Peter Scott

Your time setting on the PC are way off. You're showing the first of
February already. :-)

"Peter Scott" wrote in message
...

"Nick" wrote in message
...
A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a
big
old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor, peg
tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around
and
what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last
10
years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not
need
major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular
needs
professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings
are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are
morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this
is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the
'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the best
of
my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within
the
last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon
other
parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.

I wonder if the CH installed a decade ago has been slowly drying out and
shrinking the
timbers.

Forced air heating incorporating humidity control is ideal for older houses
with valuable timbers. The humidity can be set so it is never too dry and
achieves the optimum. If extensive rennovation is being carried out, the
ductwork can be worked into floors and the likes and long thing grills
hidden behind beams, etc.



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"Nick" wrote in message
...
A happy new year to one and all.

I recently inherited my late fathers house. Late Tudor farmhouse and a big
old barn of a place (no pun intended). Listed G2. Timber framed, brick
infill to the ground floor, wattle/daub or similar to the 1st floor, peg
tiled roof. The exterior is rendered & painted, timbers are exposed
throughout. All timbers appear to be oak and in good condition mainly.
Over the last few days I've had the chance to have a good look around and
what I see dismays me greatly.
The wiring, plumbing & ch have all been completely renewed in the last 10
years and there are no known problems with these.
However, I can't find any other aspect of the old place that does not need
major attention.
Most of the problems I know how to deal with, but one in particular needs
professional advice I feel.
The main rooms on the ground floor are about 25ft square. The ceilings are
supported by 12" x 12" beams in a + arrangement. The cross is central to
each room and formed by a single timber span with the 2 'arms' double
morticed/tenoned to that single span. Joists of 9"x6" are morticed/tenoned
to the 2 arms at about 18" centres. A very substantial structure.
In one room only the single span is bowed downwards by about 3" and this
is
immediately noticeable. Equally worrying is that the tenons of the 'arms'
have pulled out by at least an inch on each side. I presume this is a
result of the main timber bowing. As you might imagine this worries me
greatly as a failure of these timbers could be catastrophic. To the best
of
my knowledge this problem has arisen quite recently, certainly within the
last 20 years.
I could jack up the ceiling beams and put a 12x12 oak prop beneath the
centre of the cross. This would effectively destroy the appearance of a
lovely room.
I would be more inclined to jack the structure up beyond level and then
secure the 2 arms together using a substantial metal strap or straps.
I'm worried about what effects any jacking operation might have upon other
parts of the structure.
Thus I feel expert advice is needed.
Anyone know where I can ask for such advice please?

Many thanks

Nick.

I wonder if the CH installed a decade ago has been slowly drying out and
shrinking the
timbers. This is obviously a lovely and valuable house. I think you should
employ a structural engineer to investigate the problem for you. He/she can
also be used to supervise any work that you have done. They charge about 3
to 6 %
of the contract price, perhaps more for smaller projects.

Hugh Lander's book The House Restorer's Guide is food for thought. It helps
newbies (and I was one) not to ruin and devalue fine old houses. Published
by
David and Charles ISBN 0 7153 8386 8

Good luck. Its worth it to live in a fine house.

Peter Scott

" Forced air heating incorporating humidity control is ideal for older
houses
with valuable timbers. The humidity can be set so it is never too dry and
achieves the optimum. If extensive rennovation is being carried out, the
ductwork can be worked into floors and the likes and long thing grills
hidden behind beams, etc.
I don't think just adding moisture would be enough. Hardwoods air dry pretty
quickly in the tropics where humidity can be close to 100%. The chances are
that, after 10 years, it's done all the shrinking it's going to do. Once
timber has acclimatised to an environment, that's usually the end of the
matter.
You can use a basic tell-tale system to determine whether timber is still on
the move by nailing a piece of thin softwood across a joint so that it will
split with the grain if the underlying hardwood moves. Cheap cladding is
ideal because it at least starts off virtually bone dry.

Stuart Noble wrote:

" Forced air heating incorporating humidity control is ideal for older
houses

with valuable timbers. The humidity can be set so it is never too dry and
achieves the optimum. If extensive rennovation is being carried out, the
ductwork can be worked into floors and the likes and long thing grills
hidden behind beams, etc.

I don't think just adding moisture would be enough. Hardwoods air dry pretty
quickly in the tropics where humidity can be close to 100%. The chances are
that, after 10 years, it's done all the shrinking it's going to do. Once
timber has acclimatised to an environment, that's usually the end of the
matter.
You can use a basic tell-tale system to determine whether timber is still on
the move by nailing a piece of thin softwood across a joint so that it will
split with the grain if the underlying hardwood moves. Cheap cladding is
ideal because it at least starts off virtually bone dry.


Once out of the direct rain, wood settles to about 10-15% moisture
content, varying between low (winter with central heating) and high
(summer with humid air and no heating).

From green to this level of drybness accounts for about 1% longitudinal
shrinkage, and 10% across the grain - more in the direction tangential
to the rings, and less across the rings.

This alone causes green oak frames to move considerably in the first
5-10 years of construction.

After that, moving from 'barn' type conditions, to 'central heated' will
pull about 2% off the widths again.

If the gaps are more than the 12% or so that might be expected, a
structural problem may be happening. However summer to winter variation
on e.g. a 12" wide beam may be as much as 4-5mm.

Typical cause of structural problems are roof trusses cut through to
form upstairs dooways, and rotting in the timbers themselcves, causing
partial collapes and gross movement.