Hi All

Does anyone know of a source for single glazed, timber framed windows.
I am looking for one approx 80cm wide by 120cm tall, perhaps like
this

________
| |
| |
|________|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|________|

with the top portion hinged at the top.

If available to order over the web, then even better...

TIA

Matt

Does anyone know of a source for single glazed, timber framed windows.

I presume this is for a shed or something? It would be illegal to install in
a house, except in some specific cases.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

Does anyone know of a source for single glazed, timber framed windows.


I presume this is for a shed or something? It would be illegal to install in
a house, except in some specific cases.



No, its not.

Provided the insulation is up to scratch.

A fully triple glazed conservatory will average out at a U value of about 1.8.


A fully insulated wall with a 10% window area of SG glass will average
out at 0.5 or so.

You work out which is better on total thermal loss...and fortunately the
BCO are also aware. You just have to do the calculations to prove it.


Note that no conservatory OUGHT to be allowed under he rules at all, -
they only slip through on teh 'elemental method'




Christian.

I presume this is for a shed or something? It would be illegal to install
in
a house, except in some specific cases.

No, its not.

Provided the insulation is up to scratch.

That was one of the specific cases I had in mind. However, that's a lot of
calculations. You would have to ensure that the heating efficiency and
insulation of the entire house exceeded modern specifications to the extent
that there is some slack to allow single glazing. Given that the house
probably doesn't have such a specification unless built in the last year or
two, you would then need to rectify this. (Not a bad thing, in itself, but a
little excessive to just install a window).

It would almost certainly be simpler and cheaper to install a BS double
glazed window, which can look fantastic, as my parent's did with their
sashes. You have to look very closely to see that they are double glazed.

Note that no conservatory OUGHT to be allowed under he rules at all, -
they only slip through on teh 'elemental method'

They do no such thing. The elemental method requires 25% glazing. They slip
through on a special exemption, provided some rules are followed such as
independent heating controls (preferably no heating at all) and external
grade separation from the house (i.e. they must be separated from the house
such that they are considered exterior for the house calculations including,
normally, double glazed windows and wall insulation, depending on the method
used).

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Does anyone know of a source for single glazed, timber framed
windows.

I presume this is for a shed or something? It would be illegal to
install in
a house, except in some specific cases.

Christian.



Maybe the house is listed?

I presume this is for a shed or something? It would be illegal to
install in a house, except in some specific cases.

Maybe the house is listed?

That's one of the other specific cases. However, the listed building consent
is likely to require a bit more than finding any old window off the
internet. You probably have to spend 600 times the normal price to have one
carved out of 600 year old wood using only a spatula by the only person
certificated to do it, who lives in a Pacific island commune with a ship
once a year.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
I presume this is for a shed or something? It would be illegal to
install in a house, except in some specific cases.

Maybe the house is listed?

That's one of the other specific cases. However, the listed building
consent
is likely to require a bit more than finding any old window off the
internet. You probably have to spend 600 times the normal price to
have one
carved out of 600 year old wood using only a spatula by the only
person
certificated to do it, who lives in a Pacific island commune with a
ship
once a year.

Christian.



You're probably right, but for what it's worth my house is listed with
UPVC DGUs and the conservation officer intimated he'd be happy with
more-or-less any plain timber-framed single glazed units as
replacements. Of course, what he says now, and what happens if/when I
apply for LBC could be entirely different...

You're probably right, but for what it's worth my house is listed with
UPVC DGUs and the conservation officer intimated he'd be happy with
more-or-less any plain timber-framed single glazed units as
replacements.

Presumably anything is an improvement over uPVC. Except that listing might
be for the as-is condition. I wouldn't be surprised if they made you
manufacture the exact pattern of 1970's uPVC it has now when you come to
replace, even if it was a seventeenth century cottage...

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
You're probably right, but for what it's worth my house is listed
with
UPVC DGUs and the conservation officer intimated he'd be happy with
more-or-less any plain timber-framed single glazed units as
replacements.

Presumably anything is an improvement over uPVC. Except that listing
might
be for the as-is condition. I wouldn't be surprised if they made you
manufacture the exact pattern of 1970's uPVC it has now when you come
to
replace, even if it was a seventeenth century cottage...

Christian.

As I said, what he says now, and what he says if it comes to an actual
application...


Neil

Neil Jones wrote
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
I presume this is for a shed or something? It would be illegal to
install in a house, except in some specific cases.

Maybe the house is listed?

That's one of the other specific cases. However, the listed building
consent
is likely to require a bit more than finding any old window off the
internet. You probably have to spend 600 times the normal price to
have one
carved out of 600 year old wood using only a spatula by the only
person
certificated to do it, who lives in a Pacific island commune with a
ship
once a year.

Christian.



You're probably right, but for what it's worth my house is listed with
UPVC DGUs and the conservation officer intimated he'd be happy with
more-or-less any plain timber-framed single glazed units as
replacements. Of course, what he says now, and what happens if/when I
apply for LBC could be entirely different...

I can see why he said single glazed. The standard double-glazed timber windows
from the likes of Magnet and Jeld-Wen are hideous - the timber sections are even
wider than uPVC and the glass areas are minute. Over the past 20 years I've
made new single glazed softwood casement windows to match the original 1920's
windows for all the windows in my house except for the Bathroom. I used to get
standard Ovolo moulded sash sections (for single glazing) at the local timber
merchants, but when I went to buy the timber for the bathroom window I
discovered they are no longer available, thanks to the new Building Regs. I
ended up buying a standard window with sealed units, but this was a BIG
mistake - it looks totally out of keeping with all the other windows. Regs or
not, it's coming out again as soon as I can machine the timber and make a
replacement.

Peter

Tom wrote:
Hi All

Does anyone know of a source for single glazed, timber framed windows.
I am looking for one approx 80cm wide by 120cm tall, perhaps like
this

________
| |
| |
|________|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|________|

with the top portion hinged at the top.

If available to order over the web, then even better...

TIA

Matt
For what it's worth we've recently replaced loads of windows in our
house with sereral different types. Here's a summary of how it went.

1 Cheapest available timber windows ( from Bristol Timber Store) came in
standard sizes but have large rebate to take building regs approved
double glazed units. By the time you've ordered and fitted the glass it
works out about £200 /window. By FAR the ugliest and obviously poor
quality. Ours were six pane windows and there is a minimum charge for dg
units which made them much more expensive than your two pane one would be.

2 Made to measure units by a local carpenter (to fit existing odd size
openings) with double glazed units and "stuck on" glazing bars and
dividers in the glazing. Looks like single glazed except on very close
inspection but much better insulated. Very happy with these but cost
about £500 each complete.

3 Made to measure single glazed sash by a specialist sash window
company. A complete replacement window and frame for the front of the
house. It had to match an existing window and had very fine glazing
bars with hand made mouldings. This window was VERY expensive at over
£1000 fitted but looks absolutly fantastic and is identical to the one
it replaced except it isn't rotten and works properly. It's well
draught proofed with hidden strips and doesn't rattle like all the old
sashes.

Nick

PS. Can't recommend Bristol Timber store as they messed up my order so
it took 13 weeks to get the windows which was three times as long as it
took to get the custom made ones. I can happily recommend the carpenter
in situation 2 above if you're near Bath

"Neil Jones" wrote in message ...
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message

Presumably anything is an improvement over uPVC. Except that listing
might
be for the as-is condition. I wouldn't be surprised if they made you
manufacture the exact pattern of 1970's uPVC it has now when you come
to
replace, even if it was a seventeenth century cottage...


Is it ok to replace say Vic sash windows with other original Vic sash
windows then? They would be single glaed of course, and come
undraughtproofed, though draughtproofing isnt too hard on those.


Regards, NT

Thanks all


"Tom" wrote in message
om...
Hi All

Does anyone know of a source for single glazed, timber framed windows.
I am looking for one approx 80cm wide by 120cm tall, perhaps like
this

________
| |
| |
|________|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|________|

with the top portion hinged at the top.

If available to order over the web, then even better...

TIA

Matt

N. Thornton wrote:
"Neil Jones" wrote in message ...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message


Presumably anything is an improvement over uPVC. Except that listing

might

be for the as-is condition. I wouldn't be surprised if they made you
manufacture the exact pattern of 1970's uPVC it has now when you come

to

replace, even if it was a seventeenth century cottage...



Is it ok to replace say Vic sash windows with other original Vic sash
windows then? They would be single glaed of course, and come
undraughtproofed, though draughtproofing isnt too hard on those.


Regards, NT

The answer is it depends.

If you're listed then yes.

If the original windows are still in situ then you can have them
"restored" even if this means replacing all of the original material.

If the windows have been replaced with modern ones you can't go back
UNLESS you find the origial ones at the end of the garden in which case
you can put those back in and restore them.

Original or restored windows can be single glazed but new ones must be
double glazed and with low e glass.

Thus spoke my BCO

Nick
PS Amazingly my carpenter 'found' my old windows at the back of his
workshop and was able to restore them to good as new condition!!

"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
Thus spoke my BCO

Nick
PS Amazingly my carpenter 'found' my old windows at the back of his
workshop and was able to restore them to good as new condition!!

What luck! I imagine he's probably got an enormous workshop, full of the
old windows that were installed in all the houses in the vicinity :-)

Nick Brooks wrote in message ...

For what it's worth we've recently replaced loads of windows in our
house with sereral different types. Here's a summary of how it went.

1 Cheapest available timber windows ( from Bristol Timber Store) came in
standard sizes but have large rebate to take building regs approved
double glazed units. By the time you've ordered and fitted the glass it
works out about £200 /window. By FAR the ugliest and obviously poor
quality. Ours were six pane windows and there is a minimum charge for dg
units which made them much more expensive than your two pane one would be.

2 Made to measure units by a local carpenter (to fit existing odd size
openings) with double glazed units and "stuck on" glazing bars and
dividers in the glazing. Looks like single glazed except on very close
inspection but much better insulated. Very happy with these but cost
about £500 each complete.

3 Made to measure single glazed sash by a specialist sash window
company. A complete replacement window and frame for the front of the
house. It had to match an existing window and had very fine glazing
bars with hand made mouldings. This window was VERY expensive at over
£1000 fitted but looks absolutly fantastic and is identical to the one
it replaced except it isn't rotten and works properly. It's well
draught proofed with hidden strips and doesn't rattle like all the old
sashes.


Makes me think... for £500 a go I'd probably consider making my own.
Sash windows dont look excessively complex, standard carpentry skills
should be adequate I would expect. Anyone here done that?


Regards, NT

Arent I silly, Peter just said he had. Why dont more of us do it?

Regards, NT

N. Thornton wrote
Arent I silly, Peter just said he had. Why dont more of us do it?

And to follow my previous post, I've discovered that Travis Perkins still sell
all the mouldings needed for making new softwood sash and casement windows, but
they only keep them in stock at certain branches and will order it in for you.
They also do simple softwood cill sections, but in my case I needed to match the
original 6 x 3 Oak cills, so I had to have that machined specially.

You're right, it doesn't need any special skills to make new windows but like
always, I made few mistakes before I sussed it. But it's a lot more fun than
plastering ). I started out using an old hand moulding plane but soon bought
my first router and Ovolo cutter. I also invested in a bench pillar drill with
a morticer attachment and a pair of long sash cramps. The belt sander was
pretty vital too.

Peter

Peter Taylor wrote:
N. Thornton wrote

Arent I silly, Peter just said he had. Why dont more of us do it?


And to follow my previous post, I've discovered that Travis Perkins still sell
all the mouldings needed for making new softwood sash and casement windows, but
they only keep them in stock at certain branches and will order it in for you.
They also do simple softwood cill sections, but in my case I needed to match the
original 6 x 3 Oak cills, so I had to have that machined specially.

You're right, it doesn't need any special skills to make new windows but like
always, I made few mistakes before I sussed it. But it's a lot more fun than
plastering ). I started out using an old hand moulding plane but soon bought
my first router and Ovolo cutter. I also invested in a bench pillar drill with
a morticer attachment and a pair of long sash cramps. The belt sander was
pretty vital too.

Peter

I hope you're making more than one window otherwise it's going to be
very expensive:- new router, cutter, pillar drill, morticer, sash cramps
.. . . . . . .

NB

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 09:28:12 +0100, Nick Brooks
wrote:

Peter Taylor wrote:
N. Thornton wrote

Arent I silly, Peter just said he had. Why dont more of us do it?


And to follow my previous post, I've discovered that Travis Perkins still sell
all the mouldings needed for making new softwood sash and casement windows, but
they only keep them in stock at certain branches and will order it in for you.
They also do simple softwood cill sections, but in my case I needed to match the
original 6 x 3 Oak cills, so I had to have that machined specially.

You're right, it doesn't need any special skills to make new windows but like
always, I made few mistakes before I sussed it. But it's a lot more fun than
plastering ). I started out using an old hand moulding plane but soon bought
my first router and Ovolo cutter. I also invested in a bench pillar drill with
a morticer attachment and a pair of long sash cramps. The belt sander was
pretty vital too.

I would not know where to get suitable timber. I certainly don't think
you could use the kind of warped stuff that B&Q and the other sheds
stock. I replaced the wooden frames of two of my Crittalls windows.
However, I went to a Crittalls dealer (Lightfoot Windows) and bought
the frame sections there. These were incredibly straight pieces of
timber, accurately precut and morticed to size. Until recently I still
had a couple of residual cills for a larger window that I eventually
ended up reparing, not replacing, and these pieces were still as
straight and true as the day I brought them back from the supplier.
Where are you going to find timber like that? Oh, the new frames cost
me roughly £32 each! (1 cill, 2 sides, and 1 header with drip groove
per frame)

MM

Nick Brooks wrote

I hope you're making more than one window otherwise it's going to be
very expensive:- new router, cutter, pillar drill, morticer, sash cramps

Nick, please see my previous post where I said "Over the past 20 years I've
made new single glazed softwood casement windows to match the original 1920's
windows for all the windows in my house except for the Bathroom."

I have made 7 new frames and 23 new casements..

Peter

Sash window info on my site at http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery
Biggest problem is thin glazing bar with mouldings - for which you
will not find a matching router cutter. I make my own spindle moulder
cutters for perfect replica mouldings.
You can get round the moulding prob by using a plain bevel instead of
the moulding. This sounds unlikely but if the glazing bar is exactly
the same dimension as original then from a distance the lack of
moulding won't be noticed. e.g. a fine 14mm glazing bar with say 3mm
flat between mouldings - retaining the 3mm between bevels looks very
neat. Many windows were done without mouldings in this way but don't
get noticed particularly.

cheers

Jacob

(jacob) wrote in message . com...
Sash window info on my site at http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery
Biggest problem is thin glazing bar with mouldings - for which you
will not find a matching router cutter. I make my own spindle moulder
cutters for perfect replica mouldings.
You can get round the moulding prob by using a plain bevel instead of
the moulding. This sounds unlikely but if the glazing bar is exactly
the same dimension as original then from a distance the lack of
moulding won't be noticed. e.g. a fine 14mm glazing bar with say 3mm
flat between mouldings - retaining the 3mm between bevels looks very
neat. Many windows were done without mouldings in this way but don't
get noticed particularly.

cheers

Jacob

Hi
I havent tried it so I cant be sure, but it appears at first sight
that it shouldnt be too hard to make various shapes of router cutting
blade to fit a block. They would only be steel, not TCT, but should
still do the job ok. How to do you carve a bit of steel to shape?
angle grinder. Might sound crude, but if I can make good performance
drill bits with nothing more than an angle grinder I would think its
perfectly doable. A finer grinding wheel would be ideal for shaprneing
it, but even there I've used the grinder and produced a sufficiently
sharp edge to give a good result.


Regards, NT

In article , jacob
writes
Sash window info on my site at http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery
Biggest problem is thin glazing bar with mouldings - for which you
will not find a matching router cutter. I make my own spindle moulder
cutters for perfect replica mouldings.
You can get round the moulding prob by using a plain bevel instead of
the moulding. This sounds unlikely but if the glazing bar is exactly
the same dimension as original then from a distance the lack of
moulding won't be noticed. e.g. a fine 14mm glazing bar with say 3mm
flat between mouldings - retaining the 3mm between bevels looks very
neat. Many windows were done without mouldings in this way but don't
get noticed particularly.

Jacob,

Are you back into manufacturing then? I haven't got round to renovating
my windows yet, but if you're back in business I might consider it
again!

J.
--
John Rouse

I'm no engineer but I think the prob with router cutters is that they
need to be accurately balanced due to being used at high rpm in a
small machine, so making them is a skilled precision machining
operation. I guess you'd start by turning the profile on a lathe, then
cutting out the throats for the cutters, then back off the cutter
edges.
Whereas spindle moulder cutters operate at lower revs in a big sturdy
machine which can tolerate some imbalance (not too much or the
bearings suffer). So I make a pair of matching cutters using angle
grinder for roughing out and 6inch bench grinder with various wheels
for finishing off .
Paired for balance but it is not essential for both cutters to be
cutting exactly, i.e. one can be set back slightly to make setting up
easier.
This sounds a bit rough and ready but infact it's possible to make
absolutely perfect matches of mouldings - identical to the eye that
is, because you are doing them by eye. They are astonishingly cheap
compared to router cutters and also endlessly adaptable, re-usable,
reshapeable etc.

cheers
Jacob

I havent tried it so I cant be sure, but it appears at first sight
that it shouldnt be too hard to make various shapes of router cutting
blade to fit a block. They would only be steel, not TCT, but should
still do the job ok. How to do you carve a bit of steel to shape?
angle grinder. Might sound crude, but if I can make good performance
drill bits with nothing more than an angle grinder I would think its
perfectly doable. A finer grinding wheel would be ideal for shaprneing
it, but even there I've used the grinder and produced a sufficiently
sharp edge to give a good result.


Regards, NT

I'm no engineer but I think the prob with router cutters is that they
need to be accurately balanced due to being used at high rpm in a
small machine, so making them is a skilled precision machining
operation. I guess you'd start by turning the profile on a lathe, then
cutting out the throats for the cutters, then back off the cutter
edges.
Whereas spindle moulder cutters operate at lower revs in a big sturdy
machine which can tolerate some imbalance (not too much or the
bearings suffer). So I make a pair of matching cutters using angle
grinder for roughing out and 6inch bench grinder with various wheels
for finishing off .
Paired for balance but it is not essential for both cutters to be
cutting exactly, i.e. one can be set back slightly to make setting up
easier.
This sounds a bit rough and ready but infact it's possible to make
absolutely perfect matches of mouldings - identical to the eye that
is, because you are doing them by eye. They are astonishingly cheap
compared to router cutters and also endlessly adaptable, re-usable,
reshapeable etc.

cheers
Jacob

I havent tried it so I cant be sure, but it appears at first sight
that it shouldnt be too hard to make various shapes of router cutting
blade to fit a block. They would only be steel, not TCT, but should
still do the job ok. How to do you carve a bit of steel to shape?
angle grinder. Might sound crude, but if I can make good performance
drill bits with nothing more than an angle grinder I would think its
perfectly doable. A finer grinding wheel would be ideal for shaprneing
it, but even there I've used the grinder and produced a sufficiently
sharp edge to give a good result.


Regards, NT

jacob wrote:

I'm no engineer but I think the prob with router cutters is that they
need to be accurately balanced due to being used at high rpm in a
small machine, so making them is a skilled precision machining
operation. I guess you'd start by turning the profile on a lathe, then
cutting out the throats for the cutters, then back off the cutter
edges.
Whereas spindle moulder cutters operate at lower revs in a big sturdy
machine which can tolerate some imbalance (not too much or the
bearings suffer). So I make a pair of matching cutters using angle
grinder for roughing out and 6inch bench grinder with various wheels
for finishing off .
Paired for balance but it is not essential for both cutters to be
cutting exactly, i.e. one can be set back slightly to make setting up
easier.
This sounds a bit rough and ready but infact it's possible to make
absolutely perfect matches of mouldings - identical to the eye that
is, because you are doing them by eye. They are astonishingly cheap
compared to router cutters and also endlessly adaptable, re-usable,
reshapeable etc.

cheers
Jacob


I totally agree. I have worked in a spindle moulding shop, and that is
exactly how its done.




I havent tried it so I cant be sure, but it appears at first sight
that it shouldnt be too hard to make various shapes of router cutting
blade to fit a block. They would only be steel, not TCT, but should
still do the job ok. How to do you carve a bit of steel to shape?
angle grinder. Might sound crude, but if I can make good performance
drill bits with nothing more than an angle grinder I would think its
perfectly doable. A finer grinding wheel would be ideal for shaprneing
it, but even there I've used the grinder and produced a sufficiently
sharp edge to give a good result.


Regards, NT

John
No sorry not yet. Got bogged down in chapel conversion - wife had
proper job when I started but lost it so had to slow down, but had
lost workshop at Via Gellia Mill. Then had to sell house and move into
caravan behind chapel, then moved into temporary polythene tent inside
chapel to avoid worst of winter i.e. long dark evenings with nothing
to do but watch telly and drink . Oh its a hard life to be sure but
conversion now going ahead in reasonably sized fits and starts.
Will have own workshop in chapel soon but 1st job is 10 huge chapel
windows - 4ft x 12ft high with round heads. After that who knows? I
don't.

cheers

Jacob


Are you back into manufacturing then? I haven't got round to renovating
my windows yet, but if you're back in business I might consider it
again!

J.