Of course it's Chrismas Eve and no plumbers around for love nor money...

Been out a lot (pantos etc!) last few days and this is the first time
I've really noticed the lack of hot water and the house feeling colder
so I suspected sth might be wrong!

First sign, patch of water in Son's bedroom. A few days ago he
complained of being too hot so I turned the thermo valve down. This
patch of water has only become noticeable now.

Second sign is zero bar on boiler gauge (Worcester 9.24). Obviously no
hot water and no heat.

So removed the thermo part of the valve and reseated it, there is still
a very slight leak and it's now turned up full like it was before. I've
refilled the boiler with the filling loop thing pressure to 1.5 bar
(red arm is set to 2.0 bar), and turned boiler on, hot water to on.
That was over an hour ago and still no hot water and stone cold rads.

I seem then to have lost too much water in the heating system but
without drain keys I'm stuffed. But why would I not get any hot water?
Or, asuming the whole system has been off for 2/3 days with no
pressure, will I have to wait longer for system to pressurise and heat
up? Pressure seems to be holding with boiler on but I dunno why I get
no hot water at all - used to be almost instant.

Help, kids are freezing!

Ste



--
Take out no before @ and spam after

Ste Kearney wrote:

Of course it's Chrismas Eve and no plumbers around for love nor money...

First port of call, have a read through the FAQ:

http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

First sign, patch of water in Son's bedroom. A few days ago he
complained of being too hot so I turned the thermo valve down. This
patch of water has only become noticeable now.

Where is the water coming from?

Second sign is zero bar on boiler gauge (Worcester 9.24). Obviously no
hot water and no heat.

That would do it....

So removed the thermo part of the valve and reseated it, there is still
a very slight leak and it's now turned up full like it was before. I've
refilled the boiler with the filling loop thing pressure to 1.5 bar (red
arm is set to 2.0 bar), and turned boiler on, hot water to on. That was
over an hour ago and still no hot water and stone cold rads.

I seem then to have lost too much water in the heating system but
without drain keys I'm stuffed. But why would I not get any hot water?

With many boilers of this type the heating system needs to be filled and
working for the hot water side to work correctly.

Or, asuming the whole system has been off for 2/3 days with no pressure,
will I have to wait longer for system to pressurise and heat up?

No - the system is pressurised with the filling loop. After it is full
it should run. One thing to check however is that you don't have large
amounts of air in the rads. Do you have a radiator bleeding key? (If not
look at the bleeding valve at the top of the rad, some can be opened
with a screwdriver). Bleed each rad to chck there is no air in there. If
there is you may need to top up the pressure again afterwards (or even
suring if there is lots of it).

Pressure seems to be holding with boiler on but I dunno why I get no hot
water at all - used to be almost instant.

Does the boiler have a display / indicators etc? Does it say anything?
Does it have a "reset" button? If so, try pushing it. (it is likely that
if the boiler was running while the system was loosing pressure, the
boiler would have "tripped" as a safety measure. It may stay in this
protective state until you clear it).

Some things to look out for. A thermostatic valve, on a radiator like
you described, should not leak like that regardless of being open or
closed. Hence you have a problem there that will need to be addressed at
some point. See if you can see where the leak is coming from and report
back here.

Also if you have drained and refilled too much water in your system then
you may have lost some of your corrosian inhibitor. Adding more might be
a good idea to prevent future problems.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Think I fixed it, but....


Where is the water coming from?

Hard to tell for sure but it seems to be the where the pin that the
thermo valve setting knob turns or presses - not sure how it works.


Or, asuming the whole system has been off for 2/3 days with no
pressure, will I have to wait longer for system to pressurise and heat
up?

No - the system is pressurised with the filling loop. After it is full
it should run. One thing to check however is that you don't have large
amounts of air in the rads. Do you have a radiator bleeding key? (If
not look at the bleeding valve at the top of the rad, some can be
opened with a screwdriver). Bleed each rad to chck there is no air in
there. If there is you may need to top up the pressure again afterwards
(or even suring if there is lots of it).

No key no - will get one for sure!


Pressure seems to be holding with boiler on but I dunno why I get no
hot water at all - used to be almost instant.

Does the boiler have a display / indicators etc? Does it say anything?
Does it have a "reset" button? If so, try pushing it. (it is likely
that if the boiler was running while the system was loosing pressure,
the boiler would have "tripped" as a safety measure. It may stay in
this protective state until you clear it).

I said boiler is a Worcester 9.24, but looking on net for help it
doesn't seem to match! Mine has one dial (temp) and a pressure guage,
and two lights, orange 'standby' and green 'demand'. Behind a lift down
flap is an electronic programmer. The display indictes no faults just
time and programme.


Some things to look out for. A thermostatic valve, on a radiator like
you described, should not leak like that regardless of being open or
closed. Hence you have a problem there that will need to be addressed
at some point. See if you can see where the leak is coming from and
report back here.

Yeah but prolly have to wait till after Xmas when the plumbers return
from their three weeks on Bondi Beach....

leak see above...


Also if you have drained and refilled too much water in your system
then you may have lost some of your corrosian inhibitor. Adding more
might be a good idea to prevent future problems.

I reckon, bearing in mind how water spreads when on the floor (laminate
floor) I reckon I lost about a quarter of a pint at most. Leak is tiny,
about one drip every 30 secs?

Anyway, the good news or bad news if I don't want to be labelled a
thicko! I climbed up to see if pilot light was on (damned thing is
mounted really high up and I'm 6'4") and it wasn't. Followed the
instructions on the back of the panel to relight it and voila, so far
so good. Hot water is well, warm at the mo, rads heating up. Pressure
is rising to 2.2 bar at the mo, I think I may have been over-jealous in
refilling. Will it release the extra pressure automatically?

First thing I would normally check is pilot light, but the water leak
and this being my first experience of sealed system through me! Honest!

So hopefully I should be ok till after the hols and get the valve
sorted and rebled.

Thnaks for the help, hope this can help others - ie check the obvious!

Ste


--
Take out no before @ and spam after

In article 2004122414323350073%stek1961no@spammaccom,
Ste Kearney writes:

I reckon, bearing in mind how water spreads when on the floor (laminate
floor) I reckon I lost about a quarter of a pint at most. Leak is tiny,
about one drip every 30 secs?

There are about 20 drips per cc, so that's 1cc every 10 minutes, 144cc
per day, a litre a week. If there's, say, 2 - 4 litres of water pushed
into the expansion vessel, you'll empty it and depressurise the system
in 2 - 4 weeks at that rate.

Slow leaks like that can dry on the hot pipework before they
even get to drip off and stain something, which can make them hard
to find.

Anyway, the good news or bad news if I don't want to be labelled a
thicko! I climbed up to see if pilot light was on (damned thing is
mounted really high up and I'm 6'4") and it wasn't. Followed the
instructions on the back of the panel to relight it and voila, so far
so good. Hot water is well, warm at the mo, rads heating up. Pressure
is rising to 2.2 bar at the mo, I think I may have been over-jealous in
refilling. Will it release the extra pressure automatically?

Yes, but if there's some other weak link in the system, it might
do so through that before the pressure relief valve operates.
1 bar is normally enough for a cold system, unless you have any
central heating pipework more than 30 feet above the guage.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Ste Kearney wrote:

Hard to tell for sure but it seems to be the where the pin that the
thermo valve setting knob turns or presses - not sure how it works.

Sounds like the valve is knackered and needs replacing in which case.
Easy enough job to DIY if you can't get a plumber.

The work by a wax capsule in the valve head expanding and pusiong down
on the pin. With the pin fully down the water is shut off, with it fully
up the valve is full on. You may find you you can bodge this with some
leak sealing epoxy for the time being. Or just take the thermostatic
head right off to leave the valve fully open if it leaks less that way.
(If the rad gets too hot, then you can turn it down a bit with the
lockshield valve at the other end)

No key no - will get one for sure!

If this was only a slow leak, then chances are you have not lost much
water from the system. Once the pressure is down, less comes out -
especially on an upstairs radiator since there is less "head" of water
in the system above you.

I said boiler is a Worcester 9.24, but looking on net for help it
doesn't seem to match! Mine has one dial (temp) and a pressure guage,
and two lights, orange 'standby' and green 'demand'. Behind a lift down
flap is an electronic programmer. The display indictes no faults just
time and programme.

I just had a look on their site http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk at some
of the user guides. I notice the one I looked at (a greenstar HE combi)
had a temperature knob that had a reset position at the low end of its
travel. Hence to request a reset, you turned it right down to minimum,
then back to your desired temperature.

If that does not help, have a look and see if you can find a closer
match to your boiler and hence a manual for it (assuming you don't
already have a user manual that is! ;-)

(If your lucky someone like Ed or Geoff will see your post and know
exactly what is needed for this boiler)


Also if you have drained and refilled too much water in your system
then you may have lost some of your corrosian inhibitor. Adding more
might be a good idea to prevent future problems.


I reckon, bearing in mind how water spreads when on the floor (laminate
floor) I reckon I lost about a quarter of a pint at most. Leak is tiny,
about one drip every 30 secs?

OK nothing much to worry about from the inhibiter point of view then. I
would expect you would need to loose a few pints in total to drop the
pressure to zero though. Eaiser perhaps if it is a small system (i.e.
not many rads) since the amount of water in it will be less.

Anyway, the good news or bad news if I don't want to be labelled a
thicko! I climbed up to see if pilot light was on (damned thing is
mounted really high up and I'm 6'4") and it wasn't. Followed the
instructions on the back of the panel to relight it and voila, so far so
good. Hot water is well, warm at the mo, rads heating up. Pressure is
rising to 2.2 bar at the mo, I think I may have been over-jealous in
refilling. Will it release the extra pressure automatically?

Ah, should have read this bit first... ;-) Sounds like you are mostly
sorted.

Many boilers you would fill to about 1 bar when cold, they will then
rise to 1.5, perhaps 2 when hot. Some want more however. There is a
pressure relief valve which will open at 3 to 3.5 bar typically. It is
better to not alow this to operate if you can though, since it is
possible for these to leak afterwards if their mechanism does not reset
correctly.

If need be you can drain a little from a bleeding valve, or drain point.
The drain point can often be opened with a spanner or pair of pliers if
you don't have a key for the bleeding valves. Beware, the water will
stain if you spill it on a carpet though!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article 2004122414323350073%stek1961no@spammaccom,
Ste Kearney writes:

I reckon, bearing in mind how water spreads when on the floor (laminate
floor) I reckon I lost about a quarter of a pint at most. Leak is tiny,
about one drip every 30 secs?

There are about 20 drips per cc, so that's 1cc every 10 minutes, 144cc
per day, a litre a week. If there's, say, 2 - 4 litres of water pushed
into the expansion vessel, you'll empty it and depressurise the system
in 2 - 4 weeks at that rate.

Andrew Gabriel


But an increase in pressure could also increase the rate in which the
leaking part spouts water. At a lower pressure the part may not leak at
all.

Have a look for an overheat switch which may have tripped 'cause of no
water. Sometimes they are a tiny red button inside the front cover

"Ste Kearney" wrote in message
news:2004122413135275249%stek1961no@spammaccom...
Of course it's Chrismas Eve and no plumbers around for love nor money...

Been out a lot (pantos etc!) last few days and this is the first time
I've really noticed the lack of hot water and the house feeling colder
so I suspected sth might be wrong!

First sign, patch of water in Son's bedroom. A few days ago he
complained of being too hot so I turned the thermo valve down. This
patch of water has only become noticeable now.

Second sign is zero bar on boiler gauge (Worcester 9.24). Obviously no
hot water and no heat.

So removed the thermo part of the valve and reseated it, there is still
a very slight leak and it's now turned up full like it was before. I've
refilled the boiler with the filling loop thing pressure to 1.5 bar
(red arm is set to 2.0 bar), and turned boiler on, hot water to on.
That was over an hour ago and still no hot water and stone cold rads.

I seem then to have lost too much water in the heating system but
without drain keys I'm stuffed. But why would I not get any hot water?
Or, asuming the whole system has been off for 2/3 days with no
pressure, will I have to wait longer for system to pressurise and heat
up? Pressure seems to be holding with boiler on but I dunno why I get
no hot water at all - used to be almost instant.

Help, kids are freezing!

Ste



--
Take out no before @ and spam after

In message 2004122414323350073%stek1961no@spammaccom, Ste Kearney
writes
Think I fixed it, but....

Anyway, the good news or bad news if I don't want to be labelled a
thicko! I climbed up to see if pilot light was on (damned thing is
mounted really high up and I'm 6'4") and it wasn't. Followed the
instructions on the back of the panel to relight it and voila, so far
so good. Hot water is well, warm at the mo, rads heating up. Pressure
is rising to 2.2 bar at the mo, I think I may have been over-jealous in
refilling. Will it release the extra pressure automatically?

First thing I would normally check is pilot light, but the water leak
and this being my first experience of sealed system through me! Honest!


Hiding to nowhere ...

the 9.24 has no permanent pilot, it's electronic

there are two pcbs inside, a blue sequence (ignition) board and a white
control board (~ 3" by 6" with a transformer and two relays on). I see a
lot of control boards with water damage, check that first

Do I assume that you don't have a manual for the boiler ?

Where do you live, I probably have manuals for the complete range of
9.24s (there are several versions). I am in Watford

--
geoff

In message , ski
writes
Have a look for an overheat switch which may have tripped 'cause of no
water. Sometimes they are a tiny red button inside the front cover

Ian, you're a very naughty boy

Absent without leave AND top posting

how are you? Long time no see

--
geoff