"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
ups.com...
As soon as you recieve them from the factory put a coat of 50:50
varnish and meths or rubbing alcohol on them.

This will help preserve them from contact with water, iron and grubby
paws, all of which will stain them. If they are already on site, sand
them down to remove all such marks and stains and paint them with the
above mixture.

Once in situe, further coats of a slightly stronger mix will ensure
their good looks will be maintained.

Clear preservative might be used first. If it is heartwood it is not
really necessary. Do not put anything on top of preservative until the
wood is thoroughly dry. Whiter outer wood must be treated in the same
way as any other hardwood as it is no more insect or rotproof than they.


If you are happy that the frames have been treated with preservative, how
about clear or 'natural' Sadlin Exterior Advanced Woodstain. It is like
varnish but allegedly a better technology, microporous, so allowing the wood
to breathe and resist flaking. My only other tip is to sand off any sharp
edges on the frames as coating often start to flake off at a sharp edge.
Just a few passes with some 120 grade sandpaper would be better than
nothing, you don't need to remove much wood at all, it won't notice
visually.
Andy.

What would be the best kind of finish to use on new oak window frames.
Painting them is not an option as the wood look is required. I do not have a
clue whether the frames should be oiled, varnished or whatever and what
would be the best products to use?

Hope someone can help.

Richard

As soon as you recieve them from the factory put a coat of 50:50
varnish and meths or rubbing alcohol on them.

This will help preserve them from contact with water, iron and grubby
paws, all of which will stain them. If they are already on site, sand
them down to remove all such marks and stains and paint them with the
above mixture.

Once in situe, further coats of a slightly stronger mix will ensure
their good looks will be maintained.

Clear preservative might be used first. If it is heartwood it is not
really necessary. Do not put anything on top of preservative until the
wood is thoroughly dry. Whiter outer wood must be treated in the same
way as any other hardwood as it is no more insect or rotproof than they.

Richard wrote:

What would be the best kind of finish to use on new oak window frames.
Painting them is not an option as the wood look is required. I do not have a
clue whether the frames should be oiled, varnished or whatever and what
would be the best products to use?

I used a woodstain - bugger me - can't remember the name - but its not
Sikkens or Ronseal, and its fine inside, but UV and rain is messing up
parts that get a beating outside.

Ah Sadolin. So don't expect Sadolin to last under pressure.

Thers a real problem with oak: Stick too much on and it looks plasticky.
Not enough and teh water gets underneath it and blows it off.


Hope someone can help.

Richard

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:27:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

What would be the best kind of finish to use on new oak window frames.
Painting them is not an option as the wood look is required. I do not have a
clue whether the frames should be oiled, varnished or whatever and what
would be the best products to use?

I can't see why a woodstain is necessary cos oak is a pleasant enough
colour without staining and will weather to silver within a few years

I can't see why preservative is necessary or 500 year old oak timber
framed houses would have fallen down centuries ago

So I'd be tempted to put nothing on the frames. You could ask for
advice on the 'period property' pages cos I spex they will be able to
give you the pros and cons, but what I certainly wouldn't do is to
bung something on in a hurry and regret it afterwards

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

"Anna Kettle" wrote in message


I can't see why preservative is necessary or 500 year old oak timber
framed houses would have fallen down centuries ago

Wayne oak is susceptible but heartwood is quite good at standing up for
itself. However most ancient oak timbers were creosoted and covered with
pitch or some other standard preservative.

500 years ago a tree cultivated for the purpose it was eventually felled
for, would spend a few years pointing downstream in a clean, fast river.
This would wash out all its sugars and starches. It might then have been
buried in mud. Quite elabourate techniques were used in the good old
days. None of them involved rushing them through a bakery.

What would be saved buy not using preservative? Ten or twelve quid?

At what price?


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:05:28 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:

Wayne oak is susceptible but heartwood is quite good at standing up for
itself.

I suppose I assumed that joinery would be made only of heartwood, just
so it doesn't twist and warp, which is important for opening window
frames


However most ancient oak timbers were creosoted and covered with
pitch or some other standard preservative.
500 years ago a tree cultivated for the purpose it was eventually felled
for, would spend a few years pointing downstream in a clean, fast river.
This would wash out all its sugars and starches. It might then have been
buried in mud.

My experience is in using oak for massive timber framing. Timber
framers today don't use timber which has been preserved, or soaked, or
buried in mud. What they do like to use is airdried oak, not kiln
dried

What would be saved buy not using preservative? Ten or twelve quid?
At what price?

maybe preservative will clog up the pores so the timber can't breathe
properly ... maybe it will become impossible to get the silvery
weathered oak effect ...

Anna


~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Anna Kettle wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:27:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


What would be the best kind of finish to use on new oak window frames.
Painting them is not an option as the wood look is required. I do not have a
clue whether the frames should be oiled, varnished or whatever and what
would be the best products to use?


I can't see why a woodstain is necessary cos oak is a pleasant enough
colour without staining and will weather to silver within a few years

I can't see why preservative is necessary or 500 year old oak timber
framed houses would have fallen down centuries ago

Ther is a difference brtween being rained on a bit and being permenently
damp Anna.

Oak rots over 20-30 year period if very exposed.

My extenla cills are showing signs afrtre a couple of years even WITH
varnish on.

Internal tmber farmes stay dry and don't need anything really, but
again, if damp gets in, so does rot and death watch. You can examine the
pile of old oak timbers down my garden if you need convincing. We burnt
the worst ones.


So I'd be tempted to put nothing on the frames. You could ask for
advice on the 'period property' pages cos I spex they will be able to
give you the pros and cons, but what I certainly wouldn't do is to
bung something on in a hurry and regret it afterwards


I think its bad advice. Oak rots. Period. Unless its kept dry, and
exterior frames do not stay dry.

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Anna Kettle wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:05:28 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:


Wayne oak is susceptible but heartwood is quite good at standing up for
itself.


I suppose I assumed that joinery would be made only of heartwood, just
so it doesn't twist and warp, which is important for opening window
frames



However most ancient oak timbers were creosoted and covered with
pitch or some other standard preservative.
500 years ago a tree cultivated for the purpose it was eventually felled
for, would spend a few years pointing downstream in a clean, fast river.
This would wash out all its sugars and starches. It might then have been
buried in mud.


My experience is in using oak for massive timber framing. Timber
framers today don't use timber which has been preserved, or soaked, or
buried in mud. What they do like to use is airdried oak, not kiln
dried


What would be saved buy not using preservative? Ten or twelve quid?
At what price?


maybe preservative will clog up the pores so the timber can't breathe
properly ... maybe it will become impossible to get the silvery
weathered oak effect ...


If you want teh silvery wetahering, leave it in te sun and don';t put
anything on it, and watch as teh silvery eathering gradually changes to
deep scoring weher teh softer parts rot away.

Alternatively limewash it and hop the bugs don't like the taste.

Which is I think what they used to do anyway.

Anna


~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Oak is a combination of soft & hardwood as I recall, and it is the
softwood which can (more easily) rot - hence the "weathering".
o Hardwoods like Iroko & Teak are very oil heavy
o The oil has to be stripped (Meths) before you can paint them

Green oak also likes to change size, shape.

Ask Sikkens re the best finish - and preparation
o Sikkens Cetol
---- lasts 7yrs + lots of "wood colours" + overcoatable
o Sikkens Rubbol (gloss) & Satura (silk)
---- lasts 6yrs + many more colours + overcoatable
---- use Onol vs Onol Express undercoat (former seems better)

Unlike cheaper overcoatable paints it does last:
o Dulux Weathershield 1/2/3 seems to fail at 3-4yrs
---- Cobalt salt smelly primer + Trade Undercoat + White Gloss
---- Gloss very good for 6 months, then similar to Rubbol, then worse
o Rubbol AZ seems to fail at 5-6yrs
---- used Weathershield primer + Onol + White Rubbol (AZ) Gloss
---- Gloss very good if you do it right, better than Dulux at Yr1+
---- get it on clothing and you need an angle grinder to remove it
---- less suitable for high wear areas, altho Weatherhshield shells Yr3+

If you think Weathershield preservative smells, Rubbol AZ will burn
your eyeballs off for days afterwards. Horrific, looks like enamel & lasts.

Oak, colour, appearance, UV, even south-facing, maintenance; Cetol.
--
Dorothy Bradbury

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:49:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Ther is a difference brtween being rained on a bit and being permenently
damp Anna.
Oak rots over 20-30 year period if very exposed.
My extenla cills are showing signs afrtre a couple of years even WITH
varnish on.

You may well be right, I'm not an expert. I was pointing out that
varnish preservative etc might not be a good thing to use to protect
it which your 'rotting after 2 years' might confirm. Limewash works
well on the 500 year old Lavenham Guildhall

Internal tmber farmes stay dry and don't need anything really, but
again, if damp gets in, so does rot and death watch. You can examine the
pile of old oak timbers down my garden if you need convincing. We burnt
the worst ones.

Agreed that trapped damp is a killer. Was your old house rendered with
cement perchance? Is your window varnish trapping damp? One of the
main reasons oak was used for BOTH timber framing AND for building
ships is cos it can cope with being wet or dry without decaying. It is
the ?only? native timber which is so robust

I think its bad advice. Oak rots. Period. Unless its kept dry, and
exterior frames do not stay dry.

Ships are not dry

OKOK I'm not giving advice, I gave warnings not to do anything until
you know what is best to do cos it would be easy to do the wrong thing
and be stuck with it. I would then have wibbled quietly off into the
night except other people came up with advice which I know is
incorrect so I had to respond ... and then the NP is always up for a
good argument

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:44:16 GMT, "Dorothy Bradbury"
wrote:

Oak is a combination of soft & hardwood as I recall

No you recall wrong. Oak is a hardwood

and it is the
softwood which can (more easily) rot - hence the "weathering".

That is the 'early wood' which is formed as the sap is rising. It is
still hardwood

Ask Sikkens re the best finish - and preparation
o Sikkens Cetol
---- lasts 7yrs + lots of "wood colours" + overcoatable
o Sikkens Rubbol (gloss) & Satura (silk)
---- lasts 6yrs + many more colours + overcoatable
---- use Onol vs Onol Express undercoat (former seems better)

So why would the OP go to the lengths (and expense) of buying oak
windows rather than the standard pressure impregnated pine. He already
has good "wood colours" which presumably he wants to make the most of

Enuf. Shut up Anna and go and do Xmas shopping
Anna
~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Anna Kettle wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:49:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Ther is a difference brtween being rained on a bit and being permenently
damp Anna.
Oak rots over 20-30 year period if very exposed.
My extenla cills are showing signs afrtre a couple of years even WITH
varnish on.


You may well be right, I'm not an expert. I was pointing out that
varnish preservative etc might not be a good thing to use to protect
it which your 'rotting after 2 years' might confirm. Limewash works
well on the 500 year old Lavenham Guildhall



Yes, but thse timers dont get and stay sodden like horizontals do. Sole
plates always first to go. Would expect Lavenham to be on 3rd or 4th set.


Internal tmber farmes stay dry and don't need anything really, but
again, if damp gets in, so does rot and death watch. You can examine the
pile of old oak timbers down my garden if you need convincing. We burnt
the worst ones.


Agreed that trapped damp is a killer. Was your old house rendered with
cement perchance? Is your window varnish trapping damp? One of the
main reasons oak was used for BOTH timber framing AND for building
ships is cos it can cope with being wet or dry without decaying.

That is simply not so Anna. Its one of the best woods, but it rots
nonetheless - come down my garden and look at the old timbers out of the
house. They are rotting even as I write.

That old house rotted because it had roof leaks, rising damp, and water
got in the walls and stayed there, and it had been horribly and badly
patched. Thats why I demolished it. Only one interior wall was worth
preservng, and the groundman knocked that over accidentally with his
tractor.




It is
the ?only? native timber which is so robust


Best *british* timber IIRC tho Yew comes close. Teak is better, and
cedar also has some anti-fungal properties I think.


I think its bad advice. Oak rots. Period. Unless its kept dry, and
exterior frames do not stay dry.


Ships are not dry


They rot as well. Very few 300 year old oak ships around.

In laws had an old Uffa Fox built 30's oak dinghy, Thats rotted to
nothing. Very sad.


Ships were tarred outside extensively, and dry inside wherever possible.

Teak became the wood of choice as it doesn't suffer so much from fungus
IIRC.

No wood will survive a mixed wet and dry environment: You either go for
total immersion al la bog oak, and there the peat preserves it, or keep
moisture below about 20%, which os not enough to promote fungal growth etc.

What on earh do yiuy think happened to all the old oaks that fell down
since the year dot? Rotted my dear. Rotted.




OKOK I'm not giving advice, I gave warnings not to do anything until
you know what is best to do cos it would be easy to do the wrong thing
and be stuck with it. I would then have wibbled quietly off into the
night except other people came up with advice which I know is
incorrect so I had to respond ... and then the NP is always up for a
good argument

In this case I know I am right. Oak rots period. Ther are ways to stop
it but leaving it alone in the wet ain't one.

Its arguable whether bad treatment is worse than no treatment, I'll admit.

I'm still looking for a good one. May try Sikkens next time.


On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:44:16 GMT, "Dorothy Bradbury"
wrote:


Oak is a combination of soft & hardwood as I recall


No you recall wrong. Oak is a hardwood


Hradwood being a definition of a deciduous tree. Like balsa. Thats a
hardwood too. Though not a hard wood.



and it is the
softwood which can (more easily) rot - hence the "weathering".


That is the 'early wood' which is formed as the sap is rising. It is
still hardwood

If not hard wood :-)


Ask Sikkens re the best finish - and preparation
o Sikkens Cetol
---- lasts 7yrs + lots of "wood colours" + overcoatable
o Sikkens Rubbol (gloss) & Satura (silk)
---- lasts 6yrs + many more colours + overcoatable
---- use Onol vs Onol Express undercoat (former seems better)


So why would the OP go to the lengths (and expense) of buying oak
windows rather than the standard pressure impregnated pine. He already
has good "wood colours" which presumably he wants to make the most of


I agree. Oak is a ******* if you want to paint. Open grain, moves like a
bitch and tends to crack. never choose oak for a paint finish. Iroco et
al much much better.

Enuf. Shut up Anna and go and do Xmas shopping

:-)

Ships are not dry

Wood rot in boats varies by level:
o Fresh water through decks -- rot a problem
o Fresh water from condensation -- rot a problem
o Salt water in the bilge/keel/bottom -- far less a problem

Salt acts as a preservative.

Sikkens do a clear Cetol, and I guess Dutch Oil would be ok?
The risk of picking a bad finish is real, there are some really
quite putrid yellow Cetol colours which ruin the appearance.

Felt a bit sacriledge putting white rubbol on an Iroko gate,
but I'd only done the frame in Iroko, horizontals were pine.

Plenty of places do let wood naturally weather:
o Iroko cladding, red-cedar cladding
o Red-cedar shingles

However for windows most people want absolute longevity.
--
DB.

Ike I think has the highest rating for wet rot tolerance,
ie, stuck in the ground at high humidity & high temp.
Teak, Iroko & Oak are pretty high on the list too.

Lloyds register sites should have some info on wood:
o Which is best (rated) for which application
o Might extend to what treatments are best

Iroko fresh from the mill can twist & crack, and Sikkens
advise the higher hardwoods need care re the oil - you
have to get a clean surface for Cetol/Paint to adhere.

Iroko decking doesn't need arsenic laden tannalising.

Oak does like to move, perhaps dutch oil safest?
--
Dorothy Bradbury

Dorothy Bradbury wrote:

Ships are not dry


Wood rot in boats varies by level:
o Fresh water through decks -- rot a problem
o Fresh water from condensation -- rot a problem
o Salt water in the bilge/keel/bottom -- far less a problem

Salt acts as a preservative.

Sikkens do a clear Cetol, and I guess Dutch Oil would be ok?
The risk of picking a bad finish is real, there are some really
quite putrid yellow Cetol colours which ruin the appearance.

Felt a bit sacriledge putting white rubbol on an Iroko gate,
but I'd only done the frame in Iroko, horizontals were pine.

Plenty of places do let wood naturally weather:
o Iroko cladding, red-cedar cladding
o Red-cedar shingles

However for windows most people want absolute longevity.

Thanks for good info.