The introduction of the Part P Electrical Installations legislation on
January 1st has galvanised me into sorting out the ring mains in my two
bed terraced house before Christmas.

At the moment there are two rings.

One services the kitchen, three double and two single sockets. The only
one in permanent use is the one for the fridge/freezer. The rest draw
power intermittently for the microwave, washing machine, food blender
and radio.

[There is a totally separate circuit from the fuse box for the cooker]

The second ring services the two bedrooms up stairs, six double sockets
and one single socket. From this circuit there are four spurs providing
two sockets in the living room and two sockets in the dining room.

The number of sockets in the living room and dining room is woefully
insufficient and they are also badly positioned. I'd like four double
sockets in the dining room and four double sockets in the living room
(not that I intend to have heavy duty appliances plugged in to all of
them, but to give flexibility of positioning stuff).

My plan is fairly simple, that is, to extend the ring that services the
kitchen so that it would incorporate the lounge and dining room and get
rid of the spurs (access for wiring downstairs is easy due to basement
and wooden floors). I would end up with:

* an upstairs ring with six double sockets and one single socket (and no
spurs).

* a downstairs a ring with eleven double and two single sockets.

* a separate circuit for the cooker

Does this make sense?

Thanks in advance,

Rob

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 23:03:43 +0000, Rob Griffiths
strung together this:

* an upstairs ring with six double sockets and one single socket (and no
spurs).

* a downstairs a ring with eleven double and two single sockets.

* a separate circuit for the cooker

Does this make sense?

Two ways of doing this.
The first way, which would be my preference, would be to ditch all the
spurs and add an extra ring for the lounge\dining.
Obviously, if you have no spare ways in the CU then I would extend the
ring from upstairs to feed the lounge\dining as those rooms and the
bedrooms are unlikely to draw much current.
Either way, I'd leave the kitchen on it's own as it is (in comparison
to the rest of the house) a high load.

--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Rob Griffiths wrote:

The introduction of the Part P Electrical Installations legislation on
January 1st has galvanised me into sorting out the ring mains in my two
bed terraced house before Christmas.

You only need to have started it before then, for it to count as an
existing job and hence outside the scope of the regulations. In fact
most people will probably find that all the jobs they take on over the
next few years will have been started this week ;-)

* an upstairs ring with six double sockets and one single socket (and no
spurs).

* a downstairs a ring with eleven double and two single sockets.

* a separate circuit for the cooker

Does this make sense?

Yup, but what is the question?

Some things to think about: Many people find that having a separate
circuit for the kitchen can be good, since there is often a high
concentration of high load appliances there (washing machine, dryer
etc). Think about what circuits you want RCD protection on (e.g. sockets
that may feed outdoor appliances), things that would be better not RCD
protected* (freezer, boiler, lighting circuits etc). Do you need a
circuit for power to outbuildings?



* assuming you are not on a TT supply and hence require RCDs for all
circuits.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Rob Griffiths" wrote in message
...

One services the kitchen, three double and two single sockets. The only
one in permanent use is the one for the fridge/freezer. The rest draw
power intermittently for the microwave, washing machine, food blender
and radio.

I don't think you can ever have enough sockets in a kitchen.

We have dedicated sockets for: fridge, freezer, Kenwood, radio, washing
machine, dishwasher, dehydrator, steamer. They have their own surface places
(no room for storage). Cooker, extractor hood and boiler have their own
supplies. There's no microwave or television which most kitchens seem to
have.

We have none spare and it's very irritating to have to unplug an appliance
to use, for instance, an iron, vacuum, steam cleaner or whatever and have to
unplug something.

What I suggest is that you install more than the number of sockets you need
now or even think you're going to need. And make them accessible, none at
floor level or behind anything. It will save a lot of nagging and/or work in
the future.

Mary

In article ,
Rob Griffiths wrote:
My plan is fairly simple, that is, to extend the ring that services the
kitchen so that it would incorporate the lounge and dining room and get
rid of the spurs (access for wiring downstairs is easy due to basement
and wooden floors). I would end up with:

* an upstairs ring with six double sockets and one single socket (and no
spurs).

* a downstairs a ring with eleven double and two single sockets.

* a separate circuit for the cooker

Does this make sense?

Not to me. The kitchen in a modern house with non electric heating is
usually the heaviest loaded, so it makes sense to have one ring for that.
I'd have two other rings - one up one down, but failing that just the one.
But keep the kitchen separate.

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Rob Griffiths wrote:

The introduction of the Part P Electrical Installations legislation on
January 1st has galvanised me into sorting out the ring mains in my two
bed terraced house before Christmas.

You only need to have started it before then, for it to count as an
existing job and hence outside the scope of the regulations. In fact most
people will probably find that all the jobs they take on over the next few
years will have been started this week ;-)

* an upstairs ring with six double sockets and one single socket (and no
spurs).

* a downstairs a ring with eleven double and two single sockets.

* a separate circuit for the cooker

Does this make sense?

Yup, but what is the question?

Some things to think about: Many people find that having a separate
circuit for the kitchen can be good, since there is often a high
concentration of high load appliances there (washing machine, dryer etc).
Think about what circuits you want RCD protection on (e.g. sockets that
may feed outdoor appliances), things that would be better not RCD
protected* (freezer, boiler, lighting circuits etc). Do you need a circuit
for power to outbuildings?



* assuming you are not on a TT supply and hence require RCDs for all
circuits.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


However they must be completed by the 1st April 2005

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
What I suggest is that you install more than the number of sockets you
need now or even think you're going to need. And make them accessible,
none at floor level or behind anything. It will save a lot of nagging
and/or work in the future.

Not sure what you mean. For dedicated appliance sockets like many in the
kitchen, I've got those situated in the best place for them. Which might
well be at floor level. They are accessible, but the last thing I want is
cables trailing all over the place from 'conveniently' positioned sockets.
Things like fridges and washing machines only need to be unplugged for
service reasons.

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 02:09:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
strung together this:

How would 'the authorities' know when
any DIY work was completed?

Well they'll be around to check of course!
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stephen Dawson wrote:
However they must be completed by the 1st April 2005

All Fools Day for a good reason. How would 'the authorities' know when
any DIY work was completed?

--


Won't the date be on the installation certificate that you write ;-)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
What I suggest is that you install more than the number of sockets you
need now or even think you're going to need. And make them accessible,
none at floor level or behind anything. It will save a lot of nagging
and/or work in the future.

Not sure what you mean. For dedicated appliance sockets like many in the
kitchen, I've got those situated in the best place for them. Which might
well be at floor level. They are accessible, but the last thing I want is
cables trailing all over the place from 'conveniently' positioned sockets.
Things like fridges and washing machines only need to be unplugged for
service reasons.


But they might well need switching [1] off when there is no reason to pull
the unit out, IMO (and I know DP doesn't agree, but there is always two ways
to solve a problem) the use of switched fuse unit above the worktop and a
connection unit at appliance level.

[1] same with water stop valves, why do so many people place these *behind"
the washing machine etc. ?!

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Not sure what you mean. For dedicated appliance sockets like many in
the kitchen, I've got those situated in the best place for them. Which
might well be at floor level. They are accessible, but the last thing
I want is cables trailing all over the place from 'conveniently'
positioned sockets. Things like fridges and washing machines only need
to be unplugged for service reasons.


But they might well need switching [1] off when there is no reason to
pull the unit out, IMO (and I know DP doesn't agree, but there is always
two ways to solve a problem) the use of switched fuse unit above the
worktop and a connection unit at appliance level.

Or have the socket in an adjacent cupboard so it is accessible. I'd agree
with not having it sited so you have to move the appliance to get at it.

[1] same with water stop valves, why do so many people place these
*behind" the washing machine etc. ?!

Because it's an easy relatively open space to work in?

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
snip

But they might well need switching [1] off when there is no reason to
pull the unit out, IMO (and I know DP doesn't agree, but there is always
two ways to solve a problem) the use of switched fuse unit above the
worktop and a connection unit at appliance level.

Or have the socket in an adjacent cupboard so it is accessible. I'd agree
with not having it sited so you have to move the appliance to get at it.


Have you ever known a woman leave something accessible at the back of a
cupboard though, normally the door is all but bursting open under the
pressure of the overflowing contents !.. :~)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| Stephen Dawson wrote:
| However they must be completed by the 1st April 2005
| All Fools Day for a good reason. How would 'the authorities'
| know when any DIY work was completed?

DIY's not completed until the lady of the household says it is :-)

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| Stephen Dawson wrote:
| However they must be completed by the 1st April 2005
| All Fools Day for a good reason. How would 'the authorities'
| know when any DIY work was completed?

DIY's not completed until the lady of the household says it is :-)

Many years ago we had a row, as you do (we haven't had many so when we have
they've been B - I - G *BIG*).

He shouted that he'd finish doing what I wanted in the house and then leave.

He's still here, I'm pleased to say ... but I sometimes wonder if he knew
he'd never leave by making that condition :-)

Mary

I'd just but all the cable now (in the old colours), then do it after xmas.

The problem I see with part P is that if you don't tell them, how are they supposed to know. The only time it will ever get picked up is when you sell up or have other work done, and then what are they going to do, tell you to rip it out and put the old stuff back in, I don't think so!

The only thing they could make you do is apply for retrospective planning and get a Periodic Inspection Report done.

So business as usual then!




Also "Work that need not be notified to building control bodies"

Work consisting of:

Replacing accessories such as socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses

Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, for example, by fire, rodent or impact (a)

Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components (b)

Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations (c)

Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a special installation (d) and consists of:

Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit (e)

Adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit (e)

Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding (f)





Taken from

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...reg_029960.pdf

new i was meaning to put it in the cupboard next to it doh, ( I have just
done the plumbing in a bare kitchen and knew i was planning to put the stop
valves in th enext cupboard, i did but they service the taps and th ewashing
machine pipes are before the isoloation valves...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
What I suggest is that you install more than the number of sockets you
need now or even think you're going to need. And make them accessible,
none at floor level or behind anything. It will save a lot of nagging
and/or work in the future.

Not sure what you mean. For dedicated appliance sockets like many in the
kitchen, I've got those situated in the best place for them. Which might
well be at floor level. They are accessible, but the last thing I want is
cables trailing all over the place from 'conveniently' positioned
sockets.
Things like fridges and washing machines only need to be unplugged for
service reasons.


But they might well need switching [1] off when there is no reason to pull
the unit out, IMO (and I know DP doesn't agree, but there is always two
ways
to solve a problem) the use of switched fuse unit above the worktop and a
connection unit at appliance level.

[1] same with water stop valves, why do so many people place these
*behind"
the washing machine etc. ?!

Stephen Dawson wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
You only need to have started it before then

i.e. 31-DEC-2004

for it to count as an existing job and hence outside the scope of the regulations.

However they must be completed by the 1st April 2005

I've seen several mentions of this "grace completion" period, I've
looked at the .pdf from the ODPM web site and can't see any reference
within it, merely that part P comes into effect 01-JAN-2005.

Can anyone give an authoritative reference?

and if they were to discover that work had been done on the house how were
they to know if it were done before or after Jan 1st??
"Dave Jones" wrote in message
...
I'd just but all the cable now (in the old colours), then do it after xmas.

The problem I see with part P is that if you don't tell them, how are they
supposed to know. The only time it will ever get picked up is when you sell
up or have other work done, and then what are they going to do, tell you to
rip it out and put the old stuff back in, I don't think so!

The only thing they could make you do is apply for retrospective planning
and get a Periodic Inspection Report done.

So business as usual then!




Also "Work that need not be notified to building control bodies"

Work consisting of:
Replacing accessories such as socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling
roses
Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, for example,
by fire, rodent or impact (a)
Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components
(b)
Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations (c)
Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a
special installation (d) and consists of:
Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit
(e)
Adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit
(e)
Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding (f)


Taken from
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...reg_029960.pdf

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
What I suggest is that you install more than the number of sockets you
need now or even think you're going to need. And make them accessible,
none at floor level or behind anything. It will save a lot of nagging
and/or work in the future.

Not sure what you mean. For dedicated appliance sockets like many in the
kitchen, I've got those situated in the best place for them. Which might
well be at floor level.

er - you might well have things which can only be plugged in at floor level
but we haven't and I can't think what would ...

They are accessible, but the last thing I want is
cables trailing all over the place from 'conveniently' positioned
sockets.

We have no trailing cables at all, neither of us would allow them. That's
another reason for not having sockets at floor level. I suppose we might if
appliances HAD to be plugged in at floor level but things like the mixer are
used at counter level, floor standing appliances have the cables coming from
the back of the counter.

Things like fridges and washing machines only need to be unplugged for
service reasons.

Yes, so the position of the socket might as well be accessible.

Our kitchen is VERY small. There's no wall/floor junction showing. Even if
there were, there's no skirting board. It's been easier to fit the sockets
above the (half tiled) level than have to make holes in tiles and still have
to grovel to reach them.

....


[1] same with water stop valves, why do so many people place these
*behind"
the washing machine etc. ?!

Because they do it when they install the machine and don't think. They're
donkeys.

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

snip

We have no trailing cables at all, neither of us would allow them. That's
another reason for not having sockets at floor level. I suppose we might
if
appliances HAD to be plugged in at floor level but things like the mixer
are
used at counter level, floor standing appliances have the cables coming
from
the back of the counter.


You mean you pass the cables through holes in the work-top ?!...

BTW Mary, one day you will learn to post correctly and get your attributions
correct, although in your defence the message you replied to was by an idiot
top poster...

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:36:20 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Stephen Dawson wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
You only need to have started it before then

i.e. 31-DEC-2004

for it to count as an existing job and hence outside the scope of the regulations.

However they must be completed by the 1st April 2005

I've seen several mentions of this "grace completion" period, I've
looked at the .pdf from the ODPM web site and can't see any reference
within it, merely that part P comes into effect 01-JAN-2005.

Can anyone give an authoritative reference?

There's a letter in the local evening rag from an "Area Engineer" for
NICEIC regarding this (in reply to a local councillor whose original
letter I'd missed).
One of his paragraphs says:
"Electrical installers will not be barred from working during the
registration period, but for any contract starting after January 1,
2005, they will have to notify the local building control service
before work beings (sic) until such time that they have been assessed
as competent."

No mention of a "cut-off" date.

His next paragraph suggests that the aim is to avoid cowboys rather
than d-i-yers:
"As the organisation set up to protect the public from unsafe and
unsound electrical work, we welcome this law as much-needed protection
against the rogue traders who prey on vulnerable homeowners."

--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
We have no trailing cables at all, neither of us would allow them.
That's another reason for not having sockets at floor level. I suppose
we might if appliances HAD to be plugged in at floor level but things
like the mixer are used at counter level, floor standing appliances
have the cables coming from the back of the counter.

Obviously for work top appliances like kettles etc you have normal above
worktop sockets. But the problem arises with under worktop appliances like
washing machines. Suppose you could hack the plug off and drill a hole in
the worktop to bring the cable up to a socket. But I prefer a socket in an
adjacent cupboard - that's all. Of course you could have a switch at
worktop height for isolation purposes - I just can't see the need for it
since the only time I'll switch these off is at service time, and I would
then unplug it.

--
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:54:13 +0000 (UTC), Frank Erskine wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:36:20 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Stephen Dawson wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
You only need to have started it before then

i.e. 31-DEC-2004

for it to count as an existing job and hence outside the scope of the regulations.

However they must be completed by the 1st April 2005

I've seen several mentions of this "grace completion" period, I've
looked at the .pdf from the ODPM web site and can't see any reference
within it, merely that part P comes into effect 01-JAN-2005.

Can anyone give an authoritative reference?

There's a letter in the local evening rag from an "Area Engineer" for
NICEIC regarding this (in reply to a local councillor whose original
letter I'd missed).
One of his paragraphs says:
"Electrical installers will not be barred from working during the
registration period, but for any contract starting after January 1,
2005, they will have to notify the local building control service
before work beings (sic) until such time that they have been assessed
as competent."

No mention of a "cut-off" date.

His next paragraph suggests that the aim is to avoid cowboys rather
than d-i-yers:
"As the organisation set up to protect the public from unsafe and
unsound electrical work, we welcome this law as much-needed protection
against the rogue traders who prey on vulnerable homeowners."

...but of course it will have the exact opposite effect as the increased cost of jumping through the
hoops will bring a bonanza to the cheaper cowboys.