Since I'm not going to get much help (within a sensible time scale)
from the fire brigade regarding smoke/heat alarm placement in our flat
I'd appreciate any comments on the following.

The flat is a duplex flat (on two floors), the downstairs is kitchen
and living room which are essentially open to each other, there is a
*very* large hatch and the kitchen doorway has no door. The stairs
are also 'open plan' in the lounge and run up to a small landing area
off which are the bathroom, main bedroom and second bedroom (which is
a study area now).

Would it seem reasonable to put a heat alarm downstairs close to the
hatch, probably in the kitchen and an optical smoke alarm on the
upstairs landing? These would be linked mains alarms with lithium
battery backup. These two positions would be reasonably possible to
link via the service duct without an awful lot of work.

Alternatively I suppose one could go for separate battery alarms and
get more of them, this would be simpler to install and possibly
cheaper but doesn't feel so 'idiot proof' in the long term. There are
10 year lithium battery alarms now though.

--
Chris Green

Chris Green wrote
| The flat is a duplex flat (on two floors), the downstairs is
| kitchen and living room which are essentially open to each
| other, there is a *very* large hatch and the kitchen doorway
| has no door.
| The stairs are also 'open plan' in the lounge and run up to a
| small landing area off which are the bathroom, main bedroom and
| second bedroom (which is a study area now).

On which floors are the flat located e.g. is the building converted
basement+ground, first+attic? If the bedrooms are above the first floor I
would really want to try and get the staircase closed off, especially from
the kitchen.

If you cannot do that (the kitchen could have a door on a spring closer,
held open on an electromagnet that releases in the event of the smoke alarm
activating), have you considered residential sprinklers?

| Would it seem reasonable to put a heat alarm downstairs close to the
| hatch, probably in the kitchen and an optical smoke alarm on the
| upstairs landing? These would be linked mains alarms with lithium
| battery backup. These two positions would be reasonably possible to
| link via the service duct without an awful lot of work.

I would be inclined: heat detector in kitchen, optical in lounge, ionisation
at the upstairs landing and in the two bedrooms - the bedroom ones as much
for sounder volume at the bedhead as for detection capability. With a wired
in self-resetting hush switch in the kitchen, and a decent extractor fan
over the hob.

| Alternatively I suppose one could go for separate battery alarms and
| get more of them, this would be simpler to install and possibly
| cheaper but doesn't feel so 'idiot proof' in the long term. There are
| 10 year lithium battery alarms now though.

Alarms should be interlinked, for sounder volume as much as detection
capability.

Owain

Would it seem reasonable to put a heat alarm downstairs close to the
hatch, probably in the kitchen and an optical smoke alarm on the
upstairs landing?

That's how I would do it. I'd be tempted to add an ionisation type in the
master bedroom, more for the f*cking loud noise above your head at night to
wake you up than the additional detection possibilities.

Alternatively I suppose one could go for separate battery alarms and
get more of them, this would be simpler to install and possibly
cheaper but doesn't feel so 'idiot proof' in the long term. There are
10 year lithium battery alarms now though.

Don't bother. Mains is much better and the interlink is essential IMO.

Christian.

Owain wrote:
Chris Green wrote
| The flat is a duplex flat (on two floors), the downstairs is
| kitchen and living room which are essentially open to each
| other, there is a *very* large hatch and the kitchen doorway
| has no door.
| The stairs are also 'open plan' in the lounge and run up to a
| small landing area off which are the bathroom, main bedroom and
| second bedroom (which is a study area now).

On which floors are the flat located e.g. is the building converted
basement+ground, first+attic? If the bedrooms are above the first floor I
would really want to try and get the staircase closed off, especially from
the kitchen.

The entrance lobby/kitchen/lounge are at low street level at the front
of the building and above the garage at the back. There is really no
possibility of closing off the stairs, they're integral to the way the
flat is designed, it's a purpose built block dating from the 1960s.


If you cannot do that (the kitchen could have a door on a spring closer,
held open on an electromagnet that releases in the event of the smoke alarm
activating), have you considered residential sprinklers?

Having a kitchen door which closed wouldn't help significantly due to
the size of the hatch, it's not just a serving hatch, it's intent is
to make the kitchen and lounge feel like one space I think.


| Would it seem reasonable to put a heat alarm downstairs close to the
| hatch, probably in the kitchen and an optical smoke alarm on the
| upstairs landing? These would be linked mains alarms with lithium
| battery backup. These two positions would be reasonably possible to
| link via the service duct without an awful lot of work.

I would be inclined: heat detector in kitchen, optical in lounge, ionisation
at the upstairs landing and in the two bedrooms - the bedroom ones as much
for sounder volume at the bedhead as for detection capability. With a wired
in self-resetting hush switch in the kitchen, and a decent extractor fan
over the hob.

While I'd like to be as thorough as you are suggesting it's not really
practical at present, too much time, money and messing up of
decorations would be required. As there is no smoke detection at all
at present anything will be a huge improvement. If I go for Kidde or
Ei mains interlinked alarms I guess it should always be fairly easy to
extend the system when redecorating etc. allows.


| Alternatively I suppose one could go for separate battery alarms and
| get more of them, this would be simpler to install and possibly
| cheaper but doesn't feel so 'idiot proof' in the long term. There are
| 10 year lithium battery alarms now though.

Alarms should be interlinked, for sounder volume as much as detection
capability.

OK, I was just wondering aloud if more unlinked alarms would be more
effective than fewer linked ones.

If I splash out lots of money I can go for Ei radio linked alarms,
that simplifies the wiring problem. I believe it's OK (from the
wiring regulations point of view) to run the alarms from the lighting
circuit if they have battery backup, there is only one lighting
circuit so they would all be on one circuit (which I think is also
requirement). The only issue with radio interlinking is the cost, £40
per alarm in addition to the cost of the alarms.

--
Chris Green

Christian McArdle wrote:
Would it seem reasonable to put a heat alarm downstairs close to the
hatch, probably in the kitchen and an optical smoke alarm on the
upstairs landing?

That's how I would do it. I'd be tempted to add an ionisation type in the
master bedroom, more for the f*cking loud noise above your head at night to
wake you up than the additional detection possibilities.

Alternatively I suppose one could go for separate battery alarms and
get more of them, this would be simpler to install and possibly
cheaper but doesn't feel so 'idiot proof' in the long term. There are
10 year lithium battery alarms now though.

Don't bother. Mains is much better and the interlink is essential IMO.

Thanks Christian, one more alarm in the bedroom might be possible
though I'm not sure how easy it would be to get connections to it.

As I was saying I am considering using Ei wireless interlinked alarms
as this simplifies the interconnection problem considerably, it just
increases the cost rather a lot. It should be fairly easy to place
alarms on the ceiling some distance from the light fittings so that I
can use the feed to the lights to power the alarms.

--
Chris Green

Chris Green wrote
| The entrance lobby/kitchen/lounge are at low street level at
| the front of the building and above the garage at the back.

So not really 2nd floor or above then.

| While I'd like to be as thorough as you are suggesting it's not really
| practical at present, too much time, money and messing up of
| decorations would be required. As there is no smoke detection at all
| at present anything will be a huge improvement. If I go for Kidde or
| Ei mains interlinked alarms I guess it should always be fairly easy to
| extend the system when redecorating etc. allows.

Buy all the bits now just in case the range is withdrawn later, unlikely
with a good manufacturer but ...

| OK, I was just wondering aloud if more unlinked alarms would be more
| effective than fewer linked ones.

Not really IMO. An alarm has to be in place to (a) detect fire, and (b)
sound alarm. (a) usually means near kitchens and living rooms, (b) means
bedrooms to provide enough dB at the bedhead to waken someone who has
possibly fallen asleep after having drink taken.

| ... I believe it's OK (from the wiring regulations point of view) to
| run the alarms from the lighting circuit if they have battery backup,
| there is only one lighting circuit so they would all be on one circuit
| (which I think is also requirement).

Yes and yes.

Owain

wrote in message ...
Since I'm not going to get much help (within a sensible time scale)
from the fire brigade regarding smoke/heat alarm placement in our flat
Have you spoken to your local fire station? They will generally be more able
to pop around with advice than the fire safety department. If they are not
listed in your phone book just pop around one day.

Scott wrote:

wrote in message ...
Since I'm not going to get much help (within a sensible time scale)
from the fire brigade regarding smoke/heat alarm placement in our flat
Have you spoken to your local fire station? They will generally be more able
to pop around with advice than the fire safety department. If they are not
listed in your phone book just pop around one day.

I did exactly that a couple of days ago, the response was 'please put
it in writing' and then 'somoene would get back to me'. It definitely
felt like they didn't really want to help but if you insisted then
something would eventually happen. Given that I am a couple of hours
away from the flat and can only get there in non-working hours I think
the chances of getting anything done via the fire service seem pretty
slim.

--
Chris Green