Im interested in this point that someone (sorry not sure of name)
raised.

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

So I think that although it may be legal to do my own gas work.
So effectively my work would not be covered by my house insurance
policy.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Tony

"TonyJeffs" wrote in message
om...
Im interested in this point that someone (sorry not sure of name)
raised.

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

So I think that although it may be legal to do my own gas work.
So effectively my work would not be covered by my house insurance
policy.

Anyone agree or disagree?


Your competency will be assessed by someone else in such circumstances, so
your view will be irrelevant. If you could show a 10 year career of
successful professional gas installations from satisfied customers with
documentation (for example) you might be able to persuade those others that
you were a "competent person" without CORGI registration. Otherwise
"competency" will be *defined* by CORGI registration because those others
say so. This is "competency" in legal terms and CORGI registration may not
mean you are any good at doing the work and vice versa. Unfortunately
competency in legal terms is all that counts in terms of your scenario.

You may well feel (correctly, even) morally happy that you are as competent
to do the work as any CORGI registered person, but that means diddly squat
to anyone else.

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

You may well feel (correctly, even) morally happy that you are as
competent
to do the work as any CORGI registered person, but that means diddly squat
to anyone else.

But the law defines "competent" when doing work for reward as effectively
being a CORGI. Had the law intended to restrict "competent" to CORGI for
private DIY as well, then it wouldn't have put the "for reward only" clause
on the CORGI requirement.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
You may well feel (correctly, even) morally happy that you are as
competent
to do the work as any CORGI registered person, but that means diddly
squat
to anyone else.

But the law defines "competent" when doing work for reward as effectively
being a CORGI. Had the law intended to restrict "competent" to CORGI for
private DIY as well, then it wouldn't have put the "for reward only"
clause
on the CORGI requirement.


The law (by which I mean the Gas (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998)
does not mention (as far as I can see) the term "for reward". It does say:

"No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".

(Part B, 3 -(1))

My point was that, without a lot of documentation, this will be
*interpreted* as meaning "...unless he is CORGI registered.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:19:45 -0000, Bob Mannix wrote:

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
You may well feel (correctly, even) morally happy that you are as
competent
to do the work as any CORGI registered person, but that means diddly
squat
to anyone else.

But the law defines "competent" when doing work for reward as effectively
being a CORGI. Had the law intended to restrict "competent" to CORGI for
private DIY as well, then it wouldn't have put the "for reward only"
clause
on the CORGI requirement.


The law (by which I mean the Gas (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998)
does not mention (as far as I can see) the term "for reward". It does say:

"No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".

(Part B, 3 -(1))

My point was that, without a lot of documentation, this will be
*interpreted* as meaning "...unless he is CORGI registered.

The CORGI requirement is in the following paragraph:
"no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in
relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person
shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person,
as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time
being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this
paragraph."
which clearly applies to work done by an employee, ie done "for reward"

"John Armstrong" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:19:45 -0000, Bob Mannix wrote:

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
You may well feel (correctly, even) morally happy that you are as
competent
to do the work as any CORGI registered person, but that means diddly
squat
to anyone else.

But the law defines "competent" when doing work for reward as
effectively
being a CORGI. Had the law intended to restrict "competent" to CORGI
for
private DIY as well, then it wouldn't have put the "for reward only"
clause
on the CORGI requirement.


The law (by which I mean the Gas (Installation and Use) Regulations
1998)
does not mention (as far as I can see) the term "for reward". It does
say:

"No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".

(Part B, 3 -(1))

My point was that, without a lot of documentation, this will be
*interpreted* as meaning "...unless he is CORGI registered.

The CORGI requirement is in the following paragraph:
"no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in
relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person
shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed
person,
as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the
time
being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this
paragraph."
which clearly applies to work done by an employee, ie done "for reward"

This is true but irrelevant.
-We are talking about DIY, so the paragraph on employer/employee does not
apply.
-The paragraph I quoted, saying "No person shall carry out......unless
competent to do so" does apply.
-Christian's point about a "for reward" clause is incorrect (insofar as it
might exempt DIY work), as the words don't exist and are only implied in a
paragraph not applying to DIY.
-The words are quite clear - the only bit of interpretation I did was where
the powers that be require a definition of "competent person" for *any*
person doing gas work. They are free to define this in the courts and will,
undoubtedly, use the definition "CORGI registered" unless there is other
compelling documentary evidence the person has available (history,
equivalent registration from another country or whatever).


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

The law (by which I mean the Gas (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998)
does not mention (as far as I can see) the term "for reward". It does say:

"No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".

(Part B, 3 -(1))

But subsection (3) is the bit that defines the CORGI requirement for
companies.



3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and
subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees
to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and
no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer
or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of
persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for
the purposes of this paragraph.



The class of persons approved by the Health and Safety Executive basically
means members of CORGI with the appropriate qualifications. Note that this
paragraph applies only to employees and self-employed persons, not to
others.

OTOH, to be competent, you should know what you are doing to the same level
as CORGI would expect, including being able to do pipework calculations,
knowing how to leak test and all the myriad other bits. Having plumbed in a
few water taps is not enough.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
The law (by which I mean the Gas (Installation and Use) Regulations
1998)
does not mention (as far as I can see) the term "for reward". It does
say:

"No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".

(Part B, 3 -(1))

But subsection (3) is the bit that defines the CORGI requirement for
companies.




No, section 3 of Part B deals with "Qualification and Supervision", which
includes qualification for all (including, but not limited to, company
employees) and supervision of employees. That's why it says "Qualification
and Supervision" at the top!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In message , Christian
McArdle writes
The law (by which I mean the Gas (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998)
does not mention (as far as I can see) the term "for reward". It does say:

"No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas
storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".

(Part B, 3 -(1))

But subsection (3) is the bit that defines the CORGI requirement for
companies.



3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and
subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees
to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and
no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer
or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of
persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for
the purposes of this paragraph.



The class of persons approved by the Health and Safety Executive basically
means members of CORGI with the appropriate qualifications. Note that this
paragraph applies only to employees and self-employed persons, not to
others.


To paraphrase (I attended the HSE fundamental review on gas safety)

"The HSE do not have sufficient data to have an opinion on the matter of
DIY gas work.

They are monitoring the situation, but do not have any serious concerns
at the moment"

This was a couple of years ago, but having heard nothing since to the
contrary, I presume that their position hasn't changed

--
geoff

In message , Bob Mannix
writes


Your competency will be assessed by someone else in such circumstances, so
your view will be irrelevant. If you could show a 10 year career of
successful professional gas installations from satisfied customers with
documentation (for example) you might be able to persuade those others that
you were a "competent person" without CORGI registration. Otherwise
"competency" will be *defined* by CORGI registration because those others
say so. This is "competency" in legal terms and CORGI registration may not
mean you are any good at doing the work and vice versa. Unfortunately
competency in legal terms is all that counts in terms of your scenario.

You may well feel (correctly, even) morally happy that you are as competent
to do the work as any CORGI registered person, but that means diddly squat
to anyone else.

There are very few CORGI reg'd fitters I'd even let through my front
door.


--
geoff

In article ,
TonyJeffs wrote:
But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.

Well, the insurance company would have to provide expert advice as to why
and how it wasn't competent, since if it went to court you'd be suing
them. And presumably had advice that it wasn't your fault?

- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

That's what they do.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 8 Nov 2004 06:22:06 -0800, (TonyJeffs) wrote:

Im interested in this point that someone (sorry not sure of name)
raised.

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

So I think that although it may be legal to do my own gas work.
So effectively my work would not be covered by my house insurance
policy.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Tony
Agreed...

"TonyJeffs" wrote in message
om...
Im interested in this point that someone (sorry not sure of name)
raised.

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

So I think that although it may be legal to do my own gas work.
So effectively my work would not be covered by my house insurance
policy.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Tony

Don't know about the legal position but I considered this before I fitted my
own
boiler and went ahead anyway. ISTR that if you're involved in a car accident
and have no MOT that is not enough for the insurance to refuse to pay ( I
could be wrong here! ). They must prove that the car accident was caused by
a defect that the MOT would have found. Inother words, I expect your
insurance will only be void if it was your installation that was defective,
since by definition, if you screw up, you aren't
competent.

How sure are you of your competence? My background is not gas-fitting
but as an electronic engineer I reckoned I had enough nous to take on the
job. If you do it, make sure you do your reseach, i.e. correct positionig of
boiler, ditto for flue, leak testing with a u-tube manometer ( following the
prescribed procedure as listed , I think, somewhere on uk.d-i-y by Ed
Sirrett ), leak testing with the appropriate fluid ( not squeezy for
corrosion concerns I think ), mking good solder joints ( the secret IMO is
to scour both the pipe AND the inside of the fitting before soldering with
flux ), removing excess flux to discourage corrosion, making sure the gas
pipe is only passed through a cavity wall whilst being in a length of
plastic pipe ( sealed to the pipe at the appropriate end ), to prevent a gas
leak blowing your walls apart, making sure your boiler is wired to the
appropriate regs ( DP isolation switch, thermostat in new installations
etc ), and so on and so forth. It's pretty much all on the web somewhere, a
good diy book helps with things, as does the boiler installation
instructions. It's your call.

Andy

They must prove that the car accident was caused by a defect that the
MOT would have found.

Er no. Proving such would do them no good. You could be driving up the wrong
side of a dual carriageway at 120mph, swigging Southern Comfort and taking
pop shots at passing motorists with an Uzi and it would still not invalidate
your insurance, at least not the 3rd party part.

However, this isn't a general insurance issue, as this situation comes about
because of the compulsory nature of 3rd party motor insurance. Other
voluntary insurance policies can have whatever exclusions they like,
provided any unusual restrictions are pointed out before sale, rather than
being buried in small print.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

However, this isn't a general insurance issue, as this situation comes about
because of the compulsory nature of 3rd party motor insurance. Other
voluntary insurance policies can have whatever exclusions they like,
provided any unusual restrictions are pointed out before sale, rather than
being buried in small print.

Good point. Has anyone ever seen an insurance policy that made explicit
mention of DIY gas fitting? Most I have read don't even mention DIY of
any sort, other than perhaps in relation to an accidental damage policy.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 8 Nov 2004 06:22:06 -0800, (TonyJeffs) wrote:

Im interested in this point that someone (sorry not sure of name)
raised.

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

So I think that although it may be legal to do my own gas work.
So effectively my work would not be covered by my house insurance
policy.

Anyone agree or disagree?


I asked my own insurers (NFU Mutual) about diy work in general on the
house, and they said that I would be covered for pretty much anything
I did providing that I had "Accidental Damage" cover on the buildings,
and that I hadn't deliberately intended to damage anything!

The example they gave was, if I removed a load bearing wall without
realising it was a load bearing wall and the house subsequently
collapsed, then it would be covered, but only if I had accidental
damage cover.


Nick

Nick Read wrote:
On 8 Nov 2004 06:22:06 -0800, (TonyJeffs) wrote:

Im interested in this point that someone (sorry not sure of name)
raised.

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house
burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

So I think that although it may be legal to do my own gas work.
So effectively my work would not be covered by my house insurance
policy.

Anyone agree or disagree?


I asked my own insurers (NFU Mutual) about diy work in general on the
house, and they said that I would be covered for pretty much anything
I did providing that I had "Accidental Damage" cover on the
buildings,
and that I hadn't deliberately intended to damage anything!

The example they gave was, if I removed a load bearing wall without
realising it was a load bearing wall and the house subsequently
collapsed, then it would be covered, but only if I had accidental
damage cover.


Nick

Many posters here seem to believe that being a Corgi member, would be
some demonstration of competence in a court. I am fairly sure, that if
a house blew up and killed someone, the investigation wouldn't conclude
that as the installer was a member of Corgi then it couldn't be their
fault.

Having just discovered that a Corgi installer drilled through my
kitchen ring main (puncturing the neutral wire fortunately) I, for one
am not convinced of their competence.

However, in my dealings with Insurance companies, I have tended to find
that they will generally avoid paying out if possible! so they might
well pull this stunt.

TonyJeffs typed:

Im interested in this point that someone (sorry not sure of name)
raised.

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.


If you feel you are competent, then D.I.Y. it
But you should then get either a Corgi registered engineer to commission the
boiler and sign off the installation.
OR diy and get a Landlords gas safety inspection.
You would then be completely covered insurance wise, and saved lotsofmoney.

TonyJeffs wrote:

I gather that technically, if I'm comptent, which I believe I am, I
can fit my own boiler, even though I'm not CORGI registered or
formally trained.

But ... if a fault developed in my gas fitting, and the house burned
down, and the insurance company refused to pay out, and it went to
court, I don't think the judge would accept my assertion that I'm
competent.
- So the insurance wouldn't have to pay out.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Since there is clearly no legal requirement to belong to CORGI to do
what you describe, then I would expect if the insurer wanted to avoid
payment based on your "competency", they would have to do far more than
just argue that the you do not belong to CORGI. They would have to
demonstrate that the fire was a result of substandard gas fitting that
you carried out.

IANAL, but I would expect that in a case such as this you would
demonstrate your competency by calling an expert witness to verify that
the procedures you followed were indeed those that would be carried out
by a competent person.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Thanks to all...

I've just had a stolen boiler replaced, like for like, by a CORGI
reg'd plumber. Less than 2 hours work for 400 quid, and some hassle if
you read my other thread. Tiny little things too, like he scorched the
white enamel where you can hardly notice it, but he shouldn't've
scorched it at all. And the pipes arent exactly parrallell, and stick
out further than necessary from the wall. I'm getting a safety check,
for £60, on this guys work tomorrow.

Too frustrating having a buzy tradesman rushing to fit me in between
jobs. In future, I'll alwaysdiy it, and get a gas safety check.
I have some idea about pipe sizes and flue locations, bu I'll read up
on it before I do any gas work myself.


................
A job I might want to do myself is put a gas fire in without lifting
much of the laminate floor. I think it's doable with one sub-floor
weld at most, but I don't think I'd find someone else to do it.
..............................................
The car analogy is interesting.
Supposing the headlights weren't working at all, and I had an accident
at mid day, I don't think the lights, an mot fail, could be an issue
as far as the insurance company was concerned, since they didn't
contribute to the accident.
.............................................
Another interesting point raised:
If a CORGI plumber did the gas work, and the house blew up, then his
competence is in doubt despite his qualification.


Thanks again
tony

On 9 Nov 2004 08:21:28 -0800, (TonyJeffs) wrote:

Too frustrating having a buzy tradesman rushing to fit me in between
jobs. In future, I'll alwaysdiy it, and get a gas safety check.
I have some idea about pipe sizes and flue locations, bu I'll read up
on it before I do any gas work myself.

Hi,

If you have a video camera try recording parts of what you are doing,
especially the testing and commissioning. That should go a long way to
proving you are competent in case of any problems.

cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote in message . ..
On 9 Nov 2004 08:21:28 -0800, (TonyJeffs) wrote:

Too frustrating having a buzy tradesman rushing to fit me in between
jobs. In future, I'll alwaysdiy it, and get a gas safety check.
I have some idea about pipe sizes and flue locations, bu I'll read up
on it before I do any gas work myself.

Hi,

If you have a video camera try recording parts of what you are doing,
especially the testing and commissioning. That should go a long way to
proving you are competent in case of any problems.

cheers,
Pete.


one of the problems i can see with DIY boiler fitting is the vallidity
of the warranty
The installation manual for my ideal boiler states that'By law this
boiler must be installed and serviced by a CORGI registered fitter'
the only mention of a competent person relates to the Republic of
Ireland. Iwould presume on a warranty claim the manufacturer would
require the Benchmark logbook which should contain the fitters CORGI
number
installed and

"andyd" wrote
| one of the problems i can see with DIY boiler fitting is the vallidity
| of the warranty
| The installation manual for my ideal boiler states that'By law this
| boiler must be installed and serviced by a CORGI registered fitter'

which is (a) incorrect and nonsense, and nonsense has no legal effect, and
(b) a restriction on your statutory rights, which is illegal.

Owain

What does it actually take to become a corgi registered operative?
I've just put in my gas cooker with new pipe work back to the meter.
Followed Ed Sirett's excellent f.a.q. Bought a manometer (not
expensive). Will do the manometer test gain at some point just to
check. Can't see a prob with simple DIY but doesn't a new boiler
require 'commissioning' i.e. setting up with the aid of various test
procedures and meters etc?

cheers

Jacob

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 22:58:11 -0800, andyd wrote:

Pete C wrote in message . ..
On 9 Nov 2004 08:21:28 -0800, (TonyJeffs) wrote:

Too frustrating having a buzy tradesman rushing to fit me in between
jobs. In future, I'll alwaysdiy it, and get a gas safety check.
I have some idea about pipe sizes and flue locations, bu I'll read up
on it before I do any gas work myself.

Hi,

If you have a video camera try recording parts of what you are doing,
especially the testing and commissioning. That should go a long way to
proving you are competent in case of any problems.

cheers,
Pete.


one of the problems i can see with DIY boiler fitting is the vallidity
of the warranty
The installation manual for my ideal boiler states that'By law this
boiler must be installed and serviced by a CORGI registered fitter'
the only mention of a competent person relates to the Republic of
Ireland. Iwould presume on a warranty claim the manufacturer would
require the Benchmark logbook which should contain the fitters CORGI
number
installed and

Not just the registration number but also the card's unique serial number
which changes each year.

In my experience with a middle quality boiler you probably have got
c. a 10% chance of a warranty claim in the first 2 years.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html