Hello - I am a long-time lurker on this group. I have searched previous
posts, but I just can't find an answer to this question. Apologies if it has
already been covered somewhere.

I have a long hallway which turns a corner at the halfway point. My ceiling
light is currently at the halfway point. I would like to move the light to
the centre of the front half of the hallway, nearer to the front door. I
have taken up the floorboards above the current ceiling light point, and
disconnected the ceiling rose. Having done so, I have found that the cables
to the ceiling rose come from the back of the house, so I thought I would
need to get some kind of junction box, fit it at the point where the ceiling
rose now is, and then run some new cable to my new light position. The
problem is, there are three twin-core-and-earth cables entering the current
ceiling rose, and two much smaller red-sleeved cables. It appears that the
red-sleeved cables are running to switches (two switches operate this light)
but I was not expecting to find three other cables - just two, if it is a
loop-in circuit. Is it possible that a third cable is supplying another
light, as a sort of 'spur'? If it is, is there any way I can achieve my
objective of placing my new light at some distance from the old point - can
I get a junction box which would allow all the old cables, plus a new cable
to be connected?

Thanks in advance
Angela

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Garibaldi8 wrote:

Hello - I am a long-time lurker on this group. I have searched
previous posts, but I just can't find an answer to this question.
Apologies if it has already been covered somewhere.

I have a long hallway which turns a corner at the halfway point. My
ceiling light is currently at the halfway point. I would like to move
the light to the centre of the front half of the hallway, nearer to
the front door. I have taken up the floorboards above the current
ceiling light point, and disconnected the ceiling rose. Having done
so, I have found that the cables to the ceiling rose come from the
back of the house, so I thought I would need to get some kind of
junction box, fit it at the point where the ceiling rose now is, and
then run some new cable to my new light position. The problem is,
there are three twin-core-and-earth cables entering the current
ceiling rose, and two much smaller red-sleeved cables. It appears
that the red-sleeved cables are running to switches (two switches
operate this light) but I was not expecting to find three other
cables - just two, if it is a loop-in circuit. Is it possible that a
third cable is supplying another light, as a sort of 'spur'? If it
is, is there any way I can achieve my objective of placing my new
light at some distance from the old point - can I get a junction box
which would allow all the old cables, plus a new cable to be
connected?

Thanks in advance
Angela

Why not use the old rose as a junction box, but move it *above* the ceiling.
[To do this this without disconnecting everything may need a slot cutting in
the plasterboard - but you'll have to patch the old hole up, anyway]

You then need just one T&E - connected where the dangly cable currently
connects - to extend to a new rose position a few feet away.

Are you sure you want to do this though? The leg of the hall with no light
is going to be extremely dark!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

That sounds like it would do the trick, Set Square - hadn't realised it was
possible. Many thanks for your quick reply. (the back section of the hall
already has another light, so the new arrangement should be OK)


"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Garibaldi8 wrote:

Hello - I am a long-time lurker on this group. I have searched
previous posts, but I just can't find an answer to this question.
Apologies if it has already been covered somewhere.

I have a long hallway which turns a corner at the halfway point. My
ceiling light is currently at the halfway point. I would like to move
the light to the centre of the front half of the hallway, nearer to
the front door. I have taken up the floorboards above the current
ceiling light point, and disconnected the ceiling rose. Having done
so, I have found that the cables to the ceiling rose come from the
back of the house, so I thought I would need to get some kind of
junction box, fit it at the point where the ceiling rose now is, and
then run some new cable to my new light position. The problem is,
there are three twin-core-and-earth cables entering the current
ceiling rose, and two much smaller red-sleeved cables. It appears
that the red-sleeved cables are running to switches (two switches
operate this light) but I was not expecting to find three other
cables - just two, if it is a loop-in circuit. Is it possible that a
third cable is supplying another light, as a sort of 'spur'? If it
is, is there any way I can achieve my objective of placing my new
light at some distance from the old point - can I get a junction box
which would allow all the old cables, plus a new cable to be
connected?

Thanks in advance
Angela

Why not use the old rose as a junction box, but move it *above* the
ceiling.
[To do this this without disconnecting everything may need a slot cutting
in
the plasterboard - but you'll have to patch the old hole up, anyway]

You then need just one T&E - connected where the dangly cable currently
connects - to extend to a new rose position a few feet away.

Are you sure you want to do this though? The leg of the hall with no light
is going to be extremely dark!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Garibaldi8 wrote:

That sounds like it would do the trick, Set Square - hadn't realised
it was possible. Many thanks for your quick reply. (the back section
of the hall already has another light, so the new arrangement should
be OK)


Just one more thought. Technically, junction boxes with screwed terminals
(or roses used as junction boxes!) need to be accessible for maintenance
purposes - and not sealed up where they can't be got at. I'm sure that a lot
of people ignore this requirement without too many dire consequences, but if
you can, cover it with a small section of floorboard, held down with screws
so as to be easily removeable.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Garibaldi8 wrote:

I have a long hallway which turns a corner at the halfway point.
[ ... ]
there are three twin-core-and-earth cables entering the current
ceiling rose, and two much smaller red-sleeved cables. It appears
that the red-sleeved cables are running to switches (two switches
operate this light) but I was not expecting to find three other
cables - just two, if it is a loop-in circuit. Is it possible that a
third cable is supplying another light, as a sort of 'spur'?

Highly possible and not at all unusual or in any way wrong. Lighting
circuits are radials, and the "backbone" perm-Live-nd-N-and-E can be
branched off in as many places as makes sense for convenience and
economy in cable running. So - especially at a central location like
your hall's dogleg corner - it's common to have one "incoming" perm-L
T&E, which then feeds 2 or (more rarely) 3 further branches of the same
lighting circuit.

Why not use the old rose as a junction box, but move it *above* the
ceiling.

This'll work just fine. Even less work (avoiding the slot in the
plasterboard at the cost of leaving the rose in place!) is to take off
the pendant, but leave the ceiling rose in place, running your new
single T&E to the place you want the new rose from the outer terminals
of the rose where the flex now hangs. If you or next owner ever decides
to replace or supplement (with a low-energy bulb, naturally!) the
lighting by using both old and new positions, all is in place.

If, on the other hand, you will be disconnecting (to avoid making a hole
big enough to pass the rose through), then with good labelling it's not
appreciably harder to wire up the usual 4-terminal junction box than the
existing ceiling rose. Just use one of its 4 terminals for each of the 3
sets of wires currently going to the three "multihole" sections of the
rose (N, perm-L, switched-L) and the fourth for the sleeved earth wires.
You may find (if your fingers are as fat as mine, and your best set of
needle-nosed pliers is lost somewhere, as are mine, ghash moan whinge,
only three or four other pairs to hand ;-) that a 30A junction box gives
you a bit more room for all the wires than the 20A size.

HTH - Stefek

"Garibaldi8" wrote
| The problem is, there are three twin-core-and-earth cables entering
| the current ceiling rose, and two much smaller red-sleeved cables.
| It appears that the red-sleeved cables are running to switches (two
| switches operate this light) but I was not expecting to find three
| other cables - just two, if it is a loop-in circuit.

Although the normal way of wiring 2-way switches is to go to the first
switch in Twin&E (as for a one-way switch) and from the first to the second
switch in Triple&E, it is quite permissible to run Triple&E from the rose to
*each* switch. In this case, Twin&E plus a single have been used instead of
Triple&E, which is also not unusual.

You can check this by looking inside the switches.

The third Twin&E is the supply in.

The red-sleeved cables should be red insulated with an outer grey or white
sheathing.

You can replace the ceiling rose with a junction box above the ceiling and
run 1 Twin&E to the location of the new light, although as Set Square says,
the other half of the hallway may be a bit dark. You may need to use choc
blocks for some of the connections (*inside* the junction box) as I make it
that 6 terms (incl the earth) will be required). A deep surface pattress box
with blanking plate may provide more space than a typical 5A junction box.

Just label *every* wire carefully. Earth not shown below.


----Neutral In-------------------------------------O
|
----Live In---------------O O-----------| O---| |
| | O-----| | | | |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | Lamp
| | | | | |
Com L1 L2 L2 L1 Com

Switch 1 Switch 2




Owain

Thanks everyone - light working fine now - it took me a whole day, what with
lifting floorboards etc. I wonder if it would have been easier to get an
electrician....- but that wouldn't have been as much fun. Ended up with 4
terminal junction box, with lives in one, neutrals plus one switch wire in
another, earths in another, and one switch wire plus live feed to lamp in
the last.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Garibaldi8" wrote
| The problem is, there are three twin-core-and-earth cables entering
| the current ceiling rose, and two much smaller red-sleeved cables.
| It appears that the red-sleeved cables are running to switches (two
| switches operate this light) but I was not expecting to find three
| other cables - just two, if it is a loop-in circuit.

Although the normal way of wiring 2-way switches is to go to the first
switch in Twin&E (as for a one-way switch) and from the first to the
second
switch in Triple&E, it is quite permissible to run Triple&E from the rose
to
*each* switch. In this case, Twin&E plus a single have been used instead
of
Triple&E, which is also not unusual.

You can check this by looking inside the switches.

The third Twin&E is the supply in.

The red-sleeved cables should be red insulated with an outer grey or white
sheathing.

You can replace the ceiling rose with a junction box above the ceiling and
run 1 Twin&E to the location of the new light, although as Set Square
says,
the other half of the hallway may be a bit dark. You may need to use choc
blocks for some of the connections (*inside* the junction box) as I make
it
that 6 terms (incl the earth) will be required). A deep surface pattress
box
with blanking plate may provide more space than a typical 5A junction box.

Just label *every* wire carefully. Earth not shown below.


----Neutral In-------------------------------------O
|
----Live In---------------O O-----------| O---| |
| | O-----| | | | |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | Lamp
| | | | | |
Com L1 L2 L2 L1 Com

Switch 1 Switch 2




Owain

"Garibaldi8" wrote:
Thanks everyone - light working fine now - it took me a whole day, what
with
lifting floorboards etc. I wonder if it would have been easier to get an
electrician....- but that wouldn't have been as much fun.

And you would never have got one out to do it anyway.
It's a good feeling when you do something properly yourself!

Ended up with 4
terminal junction box, with lives in one, neutrals plus one switch wire in
another, earths in another, and one switch wire plus live feed to lamp in
the last.

Sounds good.
Al

Peter Ramm wrote:

Highly possible and not at all unusual or in any way wrong. Lighting
circuits are radials,


Is this always the case - I am about to replace two fuse boxes with a
CU.
There are two cables fed from the same 5A fuse - I assumed they were
a ring of all the lights.

Yes, it's always the case - as close to 'always' as any generalisation
can be. Ring circuits are almost unknown outside the UK, and here we use
them only for our 13A-socket power circuits.

Your two cables feeding from the same way in the CU are just two arms of
the usual radial circuit - it happens to have been most convenient for
whoever put the circuit in (whether as one planned job or as in a series
of add-ons!) to branch from the CU - as good a place to branch as any
other position on the circuit.

Cheers, Stefek

"Stefek Zaba" wrote in message
...
Peter Ramm wrote:

Highly possible and not at all unusual or in any way wrong. Lighting
circuits are radials,


Is this always the case - I am about to replace two fuse boxes with a
CU.
There are two cables fed from the same 5A fuse - I assumed they were
a ring of all the lights.

Yes, it's always the case - as close to 'always' as any generalisation can
be. Ring circuits are almost unknown outside the UK, and here we use them
only for our 13A-socket power circuits.

Your two cables feeding from the same way in the CU are just two arms of
the usual radial circuit - it happens to have been most convenient for
whoever put the circuit in (whether as one planned job or as in a series
of add-ons!) to branch from the CU - as good a place to branch as any
other position on the circuit.

And also useful if you decide to split the circuit so
you can have more load (bulbs) on each one.
(having checked that it isn't a ring of course)

Al