Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify the CH
system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage, feeding an
indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a circulating pump on
the boiler return pipe next to the boiler. There is no cylinder thermostat
or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There is a
manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and retrofit a
modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and room stat. The bit
which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way valve (or do I use a 2-way
valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

"JB" wrote in message
...

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify the CH
system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage, feeding an
indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a circulating pump on
the boiler return pipe next to the boiler. There is no cylinder thermostat
or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There is a
manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.

Sounds like a real cheapo system.

I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and retrofit a
modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and room stat. The bit
which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way valve (or do I use a 2-way
valve in place of the manual valve)?

As this is about 30 years old I would seriously consider replacing the
boiler. A modern boiler will save you a small fortune in gas, How many
bathrooms? showers? etc? Do you need fast bath fills etc?

The easiest way is to fit a high flow combi if the mains are suitable; Alpha
CB50, Worcetser Bosch 40 kW condensing combi, etc. Cold water in hot water
out. Remove the 3-way valve and cylinder and tank, giving losts of space,
and very easy to connect up. Flush the pipes first. Then fit a Honeywell
CM67 stat/programmer which is two wires back to the boiler. The simplest
and most cost effective way to go and all the ills are recified giving high
pressure mains showers.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify the
CH system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage,
feeding an indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a
circulating pump on the boiler return pipe next to the boiler. There
is no cylinder thermostat or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There is a
manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and retrofit a
modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and room stat. The
bit which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way valve (or do I use
a 2-way valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

From what you say, your system is fully pumped but with the water going
either to the HW coil or to the radiators, but not both at the same time.
What does this manual valve look like - does it have one input and two
outputs - maybe arranged like a tee-piece? If so, you could fairly easily
convert your system into a Y-Plan by replacing this valve with a 3-port
mid-position valve. This would support room and cylinder stats - which would
provide a "boiler interlock", so that the boiler would only run when either
or both circuits required heat - and would also enable both circuits to be
on at the same time when required.

There are schematics and wiring diagrams for several different "plans" at
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm

If your pipework doesn't lend itself to using a Y-Plan, you could instead go
for an S-Plan (which many people believe to be technically superior anyway).
This uses two 2-port zone valves (one in each circuit) each driven by the
programmer and respective thermostat. Each valve has a set of contacts which
are wired to turn the boiler and pump on when the valve is open - i.e. when
there is a demand for heat from either or both stats.

With either system, if you use a conventional 2-channel programmer for
overall control plus a programmable room stat, you can have completely
independent control over when the HW and CH come on.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify the
CH system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage,
feeding an indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a
circulating pump on the boiler return pipe next to the boiler. There
is no cylinder thermostat or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There is a
manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and retrofit a
modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and room stat. The
bit which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way valve (or do I use
a 2-way valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

From what you say, your system is fully pumped but with the water going
either to the HW coil or to the radiators, but not both at the same time.
What does this manual valve look like - does it have one input and two
outputs - maybe arranged like a tee-piece? If so, you could fairly easily
convert your system into a Y-Plan by replacing this valve with a 3-port
mid-position valve.

Best no silly plan and use two plumps with check valves and a relay in a box
on the wall.

Best still fit a high flow combi as the boiler will be near the end of its
life. So much easier and effective in speed of installation, ease and
cost..and power showers for free.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify the
CH system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage,
feeding an indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a
circulating pump on the boiler return pipe next to the boiler. There
is no cylinder thermostat or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There is a
manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and retrofit a
modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and room stat. The
bit which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way valve (or do I use
a 2-way valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

From what you say, your system is fully pumped but with the water going
either to the HW coil or to the radiators, but not both at the same
time.
What does this manual valve look like - does it have one input and two
outputs - maybe arranged like a tee-piece? If so, you could fairly
easily
convert your system into a Y-Plan by replacing this valve with a 3-port
mid-position valve.

Best no silly plan and use two plumps with check valves and a relay in a
box
on the wall.

Best still fit a high flow combi as the boiler will be near the end of its
life. So much easier and effective in speed of installation, ease and
cost..and power showers for free.

I'll have to give this idea a closer look. Thanks very much for both of your
advice.
cheers,
JB

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify
the CH system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage,
feeding an indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a
circulating pump on the boiler return pipe next to the boiler.
There is no cylinder thermostat or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There
is a manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and
retrofit a modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and
room stat. The bit which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way
valve (or do I use a 2-way valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

From what you say, your system is fully pumped but with the water
going either to the HW coil or to the radiators, but not both at
the same time. What does this manual valve look like - does it have
one input and two outputs - maybe arranged like a tee-piece? If so,
you could fairly easily convert your system into a Y-Plan by
replacing this valve with a 3-port mid-position valve.

Best no silly plan and use two plumps with check valves and a relay
in a box on the wall.

Best still fit a high flow combi as the boiler will be near the end
of its life. So much easier and effective in speed of installation,
ease and cost..and power showers for free.

I'll have to give this idea a closer look. Thanks very much for both
of your advice.
cheers,
JB

Whilst you could undoubtedly save a lot of fuel - and money - by installing
a more modern boiler, you can also make a lot of improvements to your
current system, and benefit from some of the savings, for a fraction of the
cost - without replacing the boiler at this stage. Installing zone valves
and thermostats so that the boiler and pump only run when needed will make a
tremendous difference - especially if you also put TRVs on most of the
radiators.

If you are replacing the cylinder, buy one with fast recovery (big heat
exchanger inside) and well lagged with integral foam.

Be aware that - according to our friend IMM - combi boilers are the answer
to every maiden's prayer. In reality, they are not - and there is a lot to
be said for keeping a stored hot water facility.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify
the CH system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage,
feeding an indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a
circulating pump on the boiler return pipe next to the boiler.
There is no cylinder thermostat or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There
is a manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and
retrofit a modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and
room stat. The bit which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way
valve (or do I use a 2-way valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

From what you say, your system is fully pumped but with the water
going either to the HW coil or to the radiators, but not both at
the same time. What does this manual valve look like - does it have
one input and two outputs - maybe arranged like a tee-piece? If so,
you could fairly easily convert your system into a Y-Plan by
replacing this valve with a 3-port mid-position valve.

Best no silly plan and use two plumps with check valves and a relay
in a box on the wall.

Best still fit a high flow combi as the boiler will be near the end
of its life. So much easier and effective in speed of installation,
ease and cost..and power showers for free.

I'll have to give this idea a closer look. Thanks very much for both
of your advice.
cheers,
JB

Whilst you could undoubtedly save a lot of fuel - and money - by
installing
a more modern boiler, you can also make a lot of improvements to your
current system, and benefit from some of the savings, for a fraction of
the
cost - without replacing the boiler at this stage. Installing zone valves
and thermostats so that the boiler and pump only run when needed will make
a
tremendous difference - especially if you also put TRVs on most of the
radiators.

If you are replacing the cylinder, buy one with fast recovery (big heat
exchanger inside) and well lagged with integral foam.

Be aware that - according to our friend IMM - combi boilers are the answer
to every maiden's prayer. In reality, they are not - and there is a lot to
be said for keeping a stored hot water facility.
--
I'll have to admit that is what I was originally going to do. Replace and
move the cylinder, fit TRVs throughout, and keep the old boiler until it
gives out. I've only just replaced the pump (not bad for 25yrs old) but the
boiler is in excellent condition according to the BG engineer who serviced
it a year or two ago.
Thanks again,
JB

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify
the CH system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage,
feeding an indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a
circulating pump on the boiler return pipe next to the boiler.
There is no cylinder thermostat or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There
is a manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and
retrofit a modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and
room stat. The bit which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way
valve (or do I use a 2-way valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

From what you say, your system is fully pumped but with the water
going either to the HW coil or to the radiators, but not both at
the same time. What does this manual valve look like - does it have
one input and two outputs - maybe arranged like a tee-piece? If so,
you could fairly easily convert your system into a Y-Plan by
replacing this valve with a 3-port mid-position valve.

Best no silly plan and use two plumps with check valves and a relay
in a box on the wall.

Best still fit a high flow combi as the boiler will be near the end
of its life. So much easier and effective in speed of installation,
ease and cost..and power showers for free.

I'll have to give this idea a closer look. Thanks very much for both
of your advice.
cheers,
JB

Whilst you could undoubtedly save a lot of fuel - and money - by
installing
a more modern boiler, you can also make a lot of improvements to your
current system, and benefit from some of the savings, for a fraction of
the
cost - without replacing the boiler at this stage. Installing zone valves
and thermostats so that the boiler and pump only run when needed will make
a
tremendous difference - especially if you also put TRVs on most of the
radiators.

If you are replacing the cylinder, buy one with fast recovery (big heat
exchanger inside) and well lagged with integral foam.

Be aware that - according to our friend IMM - combi boilers are the answer
to every maiden's prayer. In reality, they are not

They are. For the average home a combi is a panacea. Also he is DIYing,
where combi's are the by far the easiest solution. A heating and water
system in one box. A combi solves many of his immediate and future problems

- and there is a lot to
be said for keeping a stored
hot water facility.

There is a lot and mostly negative. Stored water is only for large systems,
when combi's are not applicable. About 1 million boilers per year are sold
in the UK and approaching 70% of them are combi's. They range from the
cheap and cheerful basic low flowrates to super sophisticated high
flows/high efficiency.

"JB" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify
the CH system I have installed in my late '70s house.
It's a pretty basic system with gas-fired boiler in the garage,
feeding an indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard above with a
circulating pump on the boiler return pipe next to the boiler.
There is no cylinder thermostat or room stat anywhere in the house.
The controller is a single channel electromechanical timer. There
is a manual valve to 'switch' between hot water and radiators.
I'm looking to replace the cylinder soon with a new one and
retrofit a modern electronic programmer with a cylinder stat and
room stat. The bit which confuses me is where do I put the 3-way
valve (or do I use a 2-way valve in place of the manual valve)?
Any help or links would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

JB

From what you say, your system is fully pumped but with the water
going either to the HW coil or to the radiators, but not both at
the same time. What does this manual valve look like - does it have
one input and two outputs - maybe arranged like a tee-piece? If so,
you could fairly easily convert your system into a Y-Plan by
replacing this valve with a 3-port mid-position valve.

Best no silly plan and use two plumps with check valves and a relay
in a box on the wall.

Best still fit a high flow combi as the boiler will be near the end
of its life. So much easier and effective in speed of installation,
ease and cost..and power showers for free.

I'll have to give this idea a closer look. Thanks very much for both
of your advice.
cheers,
JB

Whilst you could undoubtedly save a lot of fuel - and money - by
installing
a more modern boiler, you can also make a lot of improvements to your
current system, and benefit from some of the savings, for a fraction of
the
cost - without replacing the boiler at this stage. Installing zone
valves
and thermostats so that the boiler and pump only run when needed will
make
a
tremendous difference - especially if you also put TRVs on most of the
radiators.

If you are replacing the cylinder, buy one with fast recovery (big heat
exchanger inside) and well lagged with integral foam.

Be aware that - according to our friend IMM - combi boilers are the
answer
to every maiden's prayer. In reality, they are not - and there is a lot
to
be said for keeping a stored hot water facility.
--
I'll have to admit that is what I was originally going to do. Replace and
move the cylinder, fit TRVs throughout, and keep the old boiler until it
gives out. I've only just replaced the pump (not bad for 25yrs old) but
the
boiler is in excellent condition according to the BG engineer who serviced
it a year or two ago.
Thanks again,

Fitting a modern condensing boiler will drop the gas bill by 40% or so.
Your boiler is old and outdated and vastly inefficient. You may as well
replace the thing now while you are at it and get a proper up to date
system. Using a combi is simplicity in itself. It is not worth nickel &
diming it, get rid and do it properly. You will not regret it.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"JB" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify
snip

Thanks again,

Fitting a modern condensing boiler will drop the gas bill by 40% or so.
Your boiler is old and outdated and vastly inefficient. You may as well
replace the thing now while you are at it and get a proper up to date
system. Using a combi is simplicity in itself. It is not worth nickel &
diming it, get rid and do it properly. You will not regret it.


Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to talk to a
few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

JB

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:



Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to talk
to a few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

JB

Remember if you *do* go for a new condensing boiler, it doesn't *have* to be
a combi - there are plenty of conventional boilers around. If you *do* go
combi, you can *still* have stored hot water by using the HW side to heat
(say) just the water for the kitchen tap, and use the CH side to heat the
radiators *and* the hot water cylinder - using suitable zone valves.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:



Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to talk
to a few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

JB

Remember if you *do* go for a new condensing boiler, it doesn't *have* to
be
a combi - there are plenty of conventional boilers around. If you *do* go
combi, you can *still* have stored hot water by using the HW side to heat
(say) just the water for the kitchen tap, and use the CH side to heat the
radiators *and* the hot water cylinder - using suitable zone valves.
--
I didn't know you could do that! I really must do some research into this. I
do want to be able to DIY this retrofit, (except the gas of course), but I
want the job to be as straightforward as possible.
Cheers,
JB

"JB" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:



Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to talk
to a few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

JB

Remember if you *do* go for a new condensing boiler, it doesn't *have*
to
be
a combi - there are plenty of conventional boilers around. If you *do*
go
combi, you can *still* have stored hot water by using the HW side to
heat
(say) just the water for the kitchen tap, and use the CH side to heat
the
radiators *and* the hot water cylinder - using suitable zone valves.
--
I didn't know you could do that! I really must do some research into this.
I
do want to be able to DIY this retrofit, (except the gas of course), but I
want the job to be as straightforward as possible.

A condensing combi is the easiest, and most cost effective, and will meet
your requirements without power showers pumps and all the rest of it.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:02:10 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"JB" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:



Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to talk
to a few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

JB

Remember if you *do* go for a new condensing boiler, it doesn't *have*
to
be
a combi - there are plenty of conventional boilers around. If you *do*
go
combi, you can *still* have stored hot water by using the HW side to
heat
(say) just the water for the kitchen tap, and use the CH side to heat
the
radiators *and* the hot water cylinder - using suitable zone valves.
--
I didn't know you could do that! I really must do some research into this.
I
do want to be able to DIY this retrofit, (except the gas of course), but I
want the job to be as straightforward as possible.

A condensing combi is the easiest, and most cost effective, and will meet
your requirements without power showers pumps and all the rest of it.


*If* the mains water supply is adequate and *if* the selected combi
meets the hot water production requirements in the bathroom(s) and
wherever else hot water is used.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


A condensing combi is the easiest, and most cost effective, and will
meet your requirements without power showers pumps and all the rest
of it.

Whereas a combi may be easier than a conventional boiler to install in a
"new build" situation, it certainly isn't so in the case of a replacement.

If there's an existing stored hot water system, a replacement conventional
boiler will connect straight to it, in place of the old one. If you install
a combi instead, you have to remove, divert, cap, etc. the existing hot
water system. Also, hot water *distribution* needs to go via the combi. It's
quite possible that the existing hot water distribution pipes don't go
anywhere near to the boiler location - requiring a lot of new plumbing.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:02:10 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"JB" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:



Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to
talk
to a few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

JB

Remember if you *do* go for a new condensing boiler, it doesn't
*have*
to
be
a combi - there are plenty of conventional boilers around. If you
*do*
go
combi, you can *still* have stored hot water by using the HW side to
heat
(say) just the water for the kitchen tap, and use the CH side to heat
the
radiators *and* the hot water cylinder - using suitable zone valves.
--
I didn't know you could do that! I really must do some research into
this.
I
do want to be able to DIY this retrofit, (except the gas of course),
but I
want the job to be as straightforward as possible.

A condensing combi is the easiest, and most cost effective, and will meet
your requirements without power showers pumps and all the rest of it.


*If* the mains water supply is adequate and *if* the selected combi
meets the hot water production requirements in the bathroom(s) and
wherever else hot water is used.

That has already been emphasised., but thank for your solid contribution.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


A condensing combi is the easiest,
and most cost effective, and will
meet your requirements without
power showers pumps and all the rest
of it.

Whereas a combi may be easier than
a conventional boiler to install in a
"new build" situation, it certainly isn't
so in the case of a replacement.

You must pay attention.

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.
- He now realises his boiler was built by George Stephenson and needs to new
one to get the bills down.
- Gas has gone up by 10-12%, and will not go down again.
- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.
- He needs a cost effective, simple system to install that will clear his
problems.
- A system that is sound for many years to come.
- A system that is economical to run

In his situation a high flow combi the business.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:35:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


A condensing combi is the easiest,
and most cost effective, and will
meet your requirements without
power showers pumps and all the rest
of it.

Whereas a combi may be easier than
a conventional boiler to install in a
"new build" situation, it certainly isn't
so in the case of a replacement.

You must pay attention.

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.

Cylinders are not expensive and there are system boilers which have
almost all of the controls internally


- He now realises his boiler was built by George Stephenson and needs to new
one to get the bills down.

There is a broad range to choose from including combi and non combi.

- Gas has gone up by 10-12%, and will not go down again.

Which is a reason to buy a condensing boiler of some kind.


- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That is an incredibly patronising remark. Why do you automatically
assume that DIY implies limited knowledge, skill and the wherewithal
to do the job?


- He needs a cost effective, simple system to install that will clear his
problems.
- A system that is sound for many years to come.
- A system that is economical to run

In his situation a high flow combi the business.


One option among many others depending on the requirements and the
services.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


You must pay attention.

No, *you* must pay attention!

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.
- He now realises his boiler was built by George Stephenson and needs
to new one to get the bills down.

His boiler is in the garage where there is very *unlikely* to be any hot
water distribution - and probably not even a cold mains supply. What could
be simpler than slotting in a new conventional boiler, and connecting the
flow, return and gas (Corgi permitting!) pipes to it? He would need a *lot*
of new pipework to support a combi.

He has said that he wants to replace his hot cylinder. A new one will slot
in with more or less the same connections - far more easily than removing it
altogether and dealing with the redundant pipes. Inserting a couple of zone
valves, or a mid-position valve is hardly rocket science!

- Gas has gone up by 10-12%, and will not go down again.

True. but *he* didn't say it. Fuel cost was not originally high on his
priorities - but now he has been alerted to it, he needs an *efficient*
boiler - which doesn't *have* to be - and would probably be better *not*
being - a combi.

- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That's patronising!

- He needs a cost effective, simple system to install that will clear
his problems.
- A system that is sound for many years to come.
- A system that is economical to run

Agreed.

In his situation a high flow combi the business.

No! There are better options, as explained above.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:35:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


A condensing combi is the easiest,
and most cost effective, and will
meet your requirements without
power showers pumps and all the rest
of it.

Whereas a combi may be easier than
a conventional boiler to install in a
"new build" situation, it certainly isn't
so in the case of a replacement.

You must pay attention.

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.

Cylinders are not expensive

A decent quick recovery coil cylinder is not exactly cheap.

and there are system boilers which have
almost all of the controls internally

"almost" is the word. He still has to figure out the control wiring, etc.
A system boier with all thecontrols internally is pretrty well the same
internall as a combi. May as well go for a combi.

You are very good at this are you?

- He now realises his boiler was
built by George Stephenson and needs to new
one to get the bills down.

There is a broad range to choose from including combi and non combi.

- Gas has gone up by 10-12%, and will not go down again.

Which is a reason to buy a condensing boiler of some kind.

- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That is an incredibly patronising remark.

A remark based on experience. DIYers need the simplest system to install,
otherwise it becomes a mess.

Why do you automatically
assume that DIY implies limited
knowledge, skill and the wherewithal
to do the job?

He obviously has limited knowledge that is why he asked questions here.

- He needs a cost effective, simple system to install that will clear his
problems.
- A system that is sound for many years to come.
- A system that is economical to run

In his situation a high flow combi the business.

One option among many others
depending on the requirements and the
services.

The best option for his total circumstances.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


You must pay attention.

No, *you* must pay attention!

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.
- He now realises his boiler was built by George Stephenson and needs
to new one to get the bills down.

His boiler is in the garage where there is very *unlikely* to be any hot
water distribution - and probably not even a cold mains supply.

You probably find the mains comes into the house in the garage.

What could
be simpler than slotting in a
new conventional boiler, and connecting the
flow, return and gas (Corgi permitting!) pipes to it? He would need a
*lot*
of new pipework to support a combi.

A high flow combi is the simplest. He now has the opportunity to relocate
the boiler, say in the loft.

snip unhelpful stuff

- Gas has gone up by 10-12%, and will not go down again.

True. but *he* didn't say it. Fuel cost was not originally high on his
priorities - but now he has been alerted to it, he needs an *efficient*
boiler - which doesn't *have* to be - and would probably be better *not*
being - a combi.

A combi is the best option for him. He is a DIYer.

- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That's patronising!

- He needs a cost effective, simple system to install that will clear
his problems.
- A system that is sound for many years to come.
- A system that is economical to run

Agreed.

Learning at last. very encouraging.

In his situation a high flow combi the business.

No! There are better options,

Wrong. A high flow combi is the best option for him. See highlighted
points again and repeat them to yourself until you understand them all.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:20:53 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



A condensing combi is the easiest,
and most cost effective, and will
meet your requirements without
power showers pumps and all the rest
of it.

Whereas a combi may be easier than
a conventional boiler to install in a
"new build" situation, it certainly isn't
so in the case of a replacement.

You must pay attention.

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.

Cylinders are not expensive

A decent quick recovery coil cylinder is not exactly cheap.

In the context of the complete system and the work involved to install
it, the cylinder cost, which is not expensive may not turn out to be
an issue if it means that relatively little modification of pipework
through the house is required.


and there are system boilers which have
almost all of the controls internally

"almost" is the word. He still has to figure out the control wiring, etc.

That's necessary with any system.

A system boier with all thecontrols internally is pretrty well the same
internall as a combi. May as well go for a combi.

That doesn't follow at all.


- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That is an incredibly patronising remark.

A remark based on experience. DIYers need the simplest system to install,
otherwise it becomes a mess.

That's even more patronising.



Why do you automatically
assume that DIY implies limited
knowledge, skill and the wherewithal
to do the job?

He obviously has limited knowledge that is why he asked questions here.

It doesn't imply limited skill or ability, and it certainly isn't an
invitation for a put down from you.




In his situation a high flow combi the business.

One option among many others
depending on the requirements and the
services.

The best option for his total circumstances.


You know nothing about the requirement or the services or their
location or the layout of the house so you have no basis for that
conclusion at all.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:20:53 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



A condensing combi is the easiest,
and most cost effective, and will
meet your requirements without
power showers pumps and all the rest
of it.

Whereas a combi may be easier than
a conventional boiler to install in a
"new build" situation, it certainly isn't
so in the case of a replacement.

You must pay attention.

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.

Cylinders are not expensive

A decent quick recovery coil cylinder is not exactly cheap.

In the context of the complete system and the work involved to install
it, the cylinder cost, which is not expensive may not turn out to be
an issue if it means that relatively little modification of pipework
through the house is required.

Simplest, quickest and most economical is a high flow combi.

and there are system boilers which have
almost all of the controls internally

"almost" is the word. He still has to figure out the control wiring,
etc.

That's necessary with any system.

Witha combi you run a main mains supply to the combi and one two wire cable
to a Programmer stat. Super simple. Childs play.

A system boier with all thecontrols internally is pretrty well the same
internall as a combi. May as well go for a combi.

That doesn't follow at all.

It does.

- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That is an incredibly patronising remark.

A remark based on experience. DIYers need the simplest system to
install,
otherwise it becomes a mess.

That's even more patronising.

But true.

Why do you automatically
assume that DIY implies limited
knowledge, skill and the wherewithal
to do the job?

He obviously has limited knowledge that is why he asked questions here.

It doesn't imply limited
skill or ability,

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.

and it certainly isn't an
invitation for a put down from you.

I am helping him with the best solution for his overall needs.

In his situation a high flow combi the business.

One option among many others
depending on the requirements and the
services.

The best option for his total circumstances.

You know nothing about the
requirement or the services or their
location or the layout of the house
so you have no basis for that
conclusion at all.

A combi is simpler.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:04:56 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:20:53 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



In the context of the complete system and the work involved to install
it, the cylinder cost, which is not expensive may not turn out to be
an issue if it means that relatively little modification of pipework
through the house is required.

Simplest, quickest and most economical is a high flow combi.

In appropriate applications.


and there are system boilers which have
almost all of the controls internally

"almost" is the word. He still has to figure out the control wiring,
etc.

That's necessary with any system.

Witha combi you run a main mains supply to the combi and one two wire cable
to a Programmer stat. Super simple. Childs play.

You may also have to re-route a fair amount of plumbing and possibly
lay in a new gas supply.

The only additional components for a system boiler are a motorised
valve and a cylinder thermostat. These are not difficult to fit or
connect.



A system boier with all thecontrols internally is pretrty well the same
internall as a combi. May as well go for a combi.

That doesn't follow at all.

It does.

As long as it is suitable for the requirement, the services are
adequate, reorganisation of plumbing and the performance acceptable.



- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That is an incredibly patronising remark.

A remark based on experience. DIYers need the simplest system to
install,
otherwise it becomes a mess.

That's even more patronising.

But true.

Considering your exploits with plastic pipe and hacksaws that's
laughable.



Why do you automatically
assume that DIY implies limited
knowledge, skill and the wherewithal
to do the job?

He obviously has limited knowledge that is why he asked questions here.

It doesn't imply limited
skill or ability,

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.

No it doesn't at all - that's a ridiculous thing to say.




and it certainly isn't an
invitation for a put down from you.

I am helping him with the best solution for his overall needs.

Except that you don't know what the needs are.



In his situation a high flow combi the business.

One option among many others
depending on the requirements and the
services.

The best option for his total circumstances.

You know nothing about the
requirement or the services or their
location or the layout of the house
so you have no basis for that
conclusion at all.

A combi is simpler.

Than what?

It isn't simpler if it is inadequate for the task, reprovisioning of
services is needed as well as substantial reorganisation of the
plumbing.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip other bull*hit

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.


No it doesn't, it just implies that the person doesn't earn their living
from doing it.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:04:56 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:20:53 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



In the context of the complete system and the work involved to install
it, the cylinder cost, which is not expensive may not turn out to be
an issue if it means that relatively little modification of pipework
through the house is required.

Simplest, quickest and most economical is a high flow combi.

In appropriate applications.


and there are system boilers which have
almost all of the controls internally

"almost" is the word. He still has to figure out the control wiring,
etc.

That's necessary with any system.

Witha combi you run a main mains supply to the combi and one two wire
cable
to a Programmer stat. Super simple. Childs play.

You may also have to re-route a fair amount of plumbing and possibly
lay in a new gas supply.

The only additional components for a system boiler are a motorised
valve and a cylinder thermostat. These are not difficult to fit or
connect.



A system boier with all thecontrols internally is pretrty well the
same
internall as a combi. May as well go for a combi.

That doesn't follow at all.

It does.

As long as it is suitable for the requirement, the services are
adequate, reorganisation of plumbing and the performance acceptable.



- He is DIYing too, so his skill level is limited.

That is an incredibly patronising remark.

A remark based on experience. DIYers need the simplest system to
install,
otherwise it becomes a mess.

That's even more patronising.

But true.

Considering your exploits with plastic pipe and hacksaws that's
laughable.



Why do you automatically
assume that DIY implies limited
knowledge, skill and the wherewithal
to do the job?

He obviously has limited knowledge that is why he asked questions
here.

It doesn't imply limited
skill or ability,

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.

No it doesn't at all - that's a ridiculous thing to say.




and it certainly isn't an
invitation for a put down from you.

I am helping him with the best solution for his overall needs.

Except that you don't know what the needs are.



In his situation a high flow combi the business.

One option among many others
depending on the requirements and the
services.

The best option for his total circumstances.

You know nothing about the
requirement or the services or their
location or the layout of the house
so you have no basis for that
conclusion at all.

A combi is simpler.

Than what?

It isn't simpler if it is inadequate for the task, reprovisioning of
services is needed as well as substantial reorganisation of the
plumbing.





--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip other bull*hit

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.


No it doesn't, it just implies that the person doesn't earn their living
from doing it.

...and limited skill.

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
*If* the mains water supply is adequate and *if* the selected combi
meets the hot water production requirements in the bathroom(s) and
wherever else hot water is used.

And if you live in London, bear in mind that Thames Water have
announced they are to reduce the water pressure, so whilst a
combi might work for you now, it might not when water pressure
drops.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"IMM" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip other bull*hit

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.


No it doesn't, it just implies that the person doesn't earn their living
from doing it.

..and limited skill.


Not at all, just that they don't do the work as their means of employment.

QED.

IMM ? wrote:-

- He needs a cost effective, simple system to install that will clear
his problems.
- A system that is sound for many years to come.
- A system that is economical to run


Doesn't that rule out almost any modern condensing boiler? Combi or
otherwise. Unless the life expectancy of the system without maintenance
is in excess of 15 years, It may be cheaper to just change the cylinder,
and repair the boiler. Additional insulation may better deal with the
energy efficiency/running cost considerations. TCO is the final deciding
factor IMO.

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
IMM ? wrote:-

- He needs a cost effective, simple system to install that will clear
his problems.
- A system that is sound for many years to come.
- A system that is economical to run


Doesn't that rule out almost any modern condensing boiler? Combi or
otherwise.

Not at all. Now don't be silly.

Unless the life expectancy of the system without maintenance
is in excess of 15 years, It may be cheaper to just change the cylinder,
and repair the boiler.

Total tosh.

Additional insulation may better deal with the
energy efficiency/running cost considerations.

Sense at last.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip other bull*hit

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.


No it doesn't, it just implies that the person doesn't earn their living
from doing it.

..and limited skill.

I'll admit to limited *experience* in plumbing, having only done the odd bit
of pipework here and there, but I did manage to replace a cylinder
adequately in my old house with a minimum of fuss.
My problem is not lack of skill as such, certainly not with respect to
carrying out the electrical/pipework. I am an electrical/mechanical design
engineer by profession, and I do enjoy designing/building machinery and
bikes/trikes involving much tube bending & welding. I work with hydraulics
quite often and I really love soldering copper pipe and have got pretty good
at it too. Spending much of my working week in the lab or behind a CAD
screen, I find 'working with my hands' to be very good therapy! My only real
concern with plumbing is lack of knowledge with regards to the actual system
specification, and component-specific installation tips & tricks which a
professional plumber would obviously have through training and years of real
experience.

Thanks again for everyones advice on this topic.

Are there any on-line pricing guides for boilers, combi or otherwise?

cheers,
JB

"JB" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip other bull*hit

He is a DIYer and that does imply limited skill.


No it doesn't, it just implies that the person doesn't earn their
living
from doing it.

..and limited skill.

I'll admit to limited *experience* in plumbing, having only done the odd
bit
of pipework here and there, but I did manage to replace a cylinder
adequately in my old house with a minimum of fuss.
My problem is not lack of skill as such, certainly not with respect to
carrying out the electrical/pipework. I am an electrical/mechanical design
engineer by profession, and I do enjoy designing/building machinery and
bikes/trikes involving much tube bending & welding. I work with hydraulics
quite often and I really love soldering copper pipe and have got pretty
good
at it too. Spending much of my working week in the lab or behind a CAD
screen, I find 'working with my hands' to be very good therapy! My only
real
concern with plumbing is lack of knowledge with regards to the actual
system
specification, and component-specific installation tips & tricks which a
professional plumber would obviously have through training and years of
real
experience.

A combi is simple to install systemwise. Just take the heating flow and
return back to the combi's flow and return connections. The DHW is cold
mains in and DHW draw-off out and then run this to the draw-off of the old
cylinder, or an appropriate tee into the draw-off elsewhere. Electical is
just a mains cable to the combi and a two core wire from the combi to a
programmer stat. Use a Honeywell CM67.

Put rad valves on all the rads except the rad where the programmer/stat is.
Have a 22mm gas pipe to the combi. Sorted

Thanks again for everyones advice on this topic.

Are there any on-line pricing guides for boilers, combi or otherwise?

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/shop/acatalog/
http://www.uselessenergy.org

Loook at the Worcester Bosch Greenstar 40kW job.

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 19:16:24 +0100, "JB"
wrote:

I didn't know you could do that! I really must do some research into this. I
do want to be able to DIY this retrofit, (except the gas of course), but I
want the job to be as straightforward as possible.
Cheers,

Hi,

Bear in mind condensing boilers will be effectively mandatory from
April, so prices should be more competitive after then.

Whether a combi is best depends largely on hot water use, some other
factors in heating system design are the heating requirement,
availability of space, whether zoning would be a benefit.

If you can post what you have and want in terms of showers and baths
then you'll get more specific advice. BTW is the old cylinder leaking
at all or is there another reason it needs replacing?

cheers,
Pete.

"JB" wrote in message ...
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"JB" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me identify
snip

Thanks again,

Fitting a modern condensing boiler will drop the gas bill by 40% or so.
Your boiler is old and outdated and vastly inefficient. You may as well
replace the thing now while you are at it and get a proper up to date
system. Using a combi is simplicity in itself. It is not worth nickel &
diming it, get rid and do it properly. You will not regret it.


Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to talk to a
few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

Not all of them are. I have read that the governments own figures show
that the worst condensing boilers are only a couple of percent more
efficient than the best conventional ones. Find out the real figure
for your own boiler if possible in order to do a real comparison.

MBQ

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
"JB" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"JB" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JB wrote:

Are there any links to diagrams etc which would help me
identify
snip

Thanks again,

Fitting a modern condensing boiler will drop the gas bill by 40% or
so.
Your boiler is old and outdated and vastly inefficient. You may as
well
replace the thing now while you are at it and get a proper up to date
system. Using a combi is simplicity in itself. It is not worth
nickel &
diming it, get rid and do it properly. You will not regret it.


Jesus! I had no idea the older ones were as bad as that! Time to talk to
a
few suppliers I think.
thanks again,

Not all of them are. I have read that the governments own figures show
that the worst condensing boilers are only a couple of percent more
efficient than the best conventional ones. Find out the real figure
for your own boiler if possible in order to do a real comparison.

You are on about new boilers. The average new condenser is now way above
the best regular. he has an old cast iron 30 year old boiler. A new good
performing condensing boiler will drop 40% off his gas bill, as been
mentioned.

"IMM" wrote in message ...
"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


You must pay attention.

No, *you* must pay attention!

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare minimum.
- He now realises his boiler was built by George Stephenson and needs
to new one to get the bills down.

His boiler is in the garage where there is very *unlikely* to be any hot
water distribution - and probably not even a cold mains supply.

You probably find the mains comes into the house in the garage.

Far more likely to come into kitchen.

"MBQ" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


You must pay attention.

No, *you* must pay attention!

- He needs a new cylinder and all sorts of controls as a bare
minimum.
- He now realises his boiler was built by George Stephenson and
needs
to new one to get the bills down.

His boiler is in the garage where there is very *unlikely* to be any
hot
water distribution - and probably not even a cold mains supply.

You probably find the mains comes into the house in the garage.

Far more likely to come into kitchen.

If the garage is integrated. I suspect this is integrated as the boiler is
in there. If the boiler was fitted there as new then most likely the mains
come into the garage too. They tended to put all utilities and meters in the
garage.