Hi there,

I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of my
shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the shower.

I recently had some problems with the shower running colder than normal
so following the advice of the manual (and this newsgroup) I took out
the thermostat, flushed it and gave it a good clean, and reinserted it.
Unfortunately this didn't work, and after a phone call to the
manufacturers I got sent a new unit (can't fault the service btw, the
company was Marflow).

Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more. The allen key (which I suspect was
probably slightly too small in the first place) just rotates in the
socket. This "threading" happened when I rescrewed after trying the flush.

I tried extracting with all manner of pliers, assuming I could get a
decent grip and twist it out, but to no avail. Perhaps I screwed it in
incorrectly.

Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?

Thanks, Dan

p.s. Sorry if threaded is not the proper term... Perhaps someone could
suggest a better one to help other people searching for similar problems.

"Dan Gravell" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of my
shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the shower.

I recently had some problems with the shower running colder than normal
so following the advice of the manual (and this newsgroup) I took out
the thermostat, flushed it and gave it a good clean, and reinserted it.
Unfortunately this didn't work, and after a phone call to the
manufacturers I got sent a new unit (can't fault the service btw, the
company was Marflow).

Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more. The allen key (which I suspect was
probably slightly too small in the first place) just rotates in the
socket. This "threading" happened when I rescrewed after trying the flush.

I tried extracting with all manner of pliers, assuming I could get a
decent grip and twist it out, but to no avail. Perhaps I screwed it in
incorrectly.

Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?

Thanks, Dan

p.s. Sorry if threaded is not the proper term... Perhaps someone could
suggest a better one to help other people searching for similar problems.

Depends if you need to reuse the damaged screw - if not maybe put a small
blob of araldite or some other adhesive on the end of the allen key, insert
into the stripped socket and wiat for a bond to form, then you can remove
the screw.

Neil

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:04:23 +0100, Dan Gravell
wrote:


Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more.

Allen keys come in both metric and imperial sizing - is it possible
you have used the wrong sort? If so the correct type might just
still work. (To make life interesting they are not marked in any way
so you can tell which is which).

If it is the correct one sometimes flattening the end on an oilstone
to give it back a good flat surface will enable you to get a bit of
grip.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Neil Jones wrote:

Depends if you need to reuse the damaged screw - if not maybe put a small
blob of araldite or some other adhesive on the end of the allen key, insert
into the stripped socket and wiat for a bond to form, then you can remove
the screw.

Neil

I probably would short term - i.e. to get the shower working again. In
the meantime I'd probably give the shower company another call, as I've
not seen a similar type of screw being sold.

I did think of that... and it might come to it if all else fails. Ta!

Peter Parry wrote:

Allen keys come in both metric and imperial sizing - is it possible
you have used the wrong sort? If so the correct type might just
still work. (To make life interesting they are not marked in any way
so you can tell which is which).

If it is the correct one sometimes flattening the end on an oilstone
to give it back a good flat surface will enable you to get a bit of
grip.

I bought the key in a hardware shop, where neither of us (me nor the
shopkeep) knew what size it actually was. It just came in a wooden box,
I bought a few and used the best fit. Looking back this is probably not
the best way, but you live and learn. I'm a DIY noobie, so be gentle on
me

I'm pretty sure even if I flattened it it would not work, the screw is
more or less circular inside now, and the key itself seems very soft as
that has also warped slightly.

What's an oilstone?

Dan

Dan Gravell wrote:
|| Peter Parry wrote:
||
||| Allen keys come in both metric and imperial sizing - is it possible
||| you have used the wrong sort? If so the correct type might just
||| still work. (To make life interesting they are not marked in any
||| way so you can tell which is which).
|||
||| If it is the correct one sometimes flattening the end on an oilstone
||| to give it back a good flat surface will enable you to get a bit of
||| grip.
||
|| I bought the key in a hardware shop, where neither of us (me nor the
|| shopkeep) knew what size it actually was. It just came in a wooden
|| box, I bought a few and used the best fit. Looking back this is
|| probably not the best way, but you live and learn. I'm a DIY noobie,
|| so be gentle on me
||
|| I'm pretty sure even if I flattened it it would not work, the screw
|| is more or less circular inside now, and the key itself seems very
|| soft as that has also warped slightly.
||
|| What's an oilstone?
||
|| Dan

lol A stone you put oil on. used for sharping chisels and the like.

--
Grouch

Dan Gravell wrote:

Hi there,

I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of my
shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the shower.

I recently had some problems with the shower running colder than normal
so following the advice of the manual (and this newsgroup) I took out
the thermostat, flushed it and gave it a good clean, and reinserted it.
Unfortunately this didn't work, and after a phone call to the
manufacturers I got sent a new unit (can't fault the service btw, the
company was Marflow).

Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more. The allen key (which I suspect was
probably slightly too small in the first place) just rotates in the
socket. This "threading" happened when I rescrewed after trying the flush.

I tried extracting with all manner of pliers, assuming I could get a
decent grip and twist it out, but to no avail. Perhaps I screwed it in
incorrectly.

Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?

Thanks, Dan

p.s. Sorry if threaded is not the proper term... Perhaps someone could
suggest a better one to help other people searching for similar problems.

You have had one good suggestion - glue in the key.

Another one is to invest in a small file, and an over seze allen keye,
and file it down rather tapered til its a very tight fit, and hammer it in.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Dan Gravell wrote:

Hi there,
I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of
my shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the
shower.
I recently had some problems with the shower running colder than
normal so following the advice of the manual (and this newsgroup) I
took out the thermostat, flushed it and gave it a good clean, and
reinserted it. Unfortunately this didn't work, and after a phone call
to the manufacturers I got sent a new unit (can't fault the service
btw, the company was Marflow).
Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more. The allen key (which I suspect
was probably slightly too small in the first place) just rotates in
the socket. This "threading" happened when I rescrewed after trying
the flush.
I tried extracting with all manner of pliers, assuming I could get a
decent grip and twist it out, but to no avail. Perhaps I screwed it in
incorrectly.
Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?
Thanks, Dan
p.s. Sorry if threaded is not the proper term... Perhaps someone
could suggest a better one to help other people searching for similar
problems.

You have had one good suggestion - glue in the key.

Another one is to invest in a small file, and an over seze allen keye,
and file it down rather tapered til its a very tight fit, and hammer it
in.

Also I have sometimes managed to get them out using a flat blade
screwdriver which fits across two corners of the hexagon.

I think the term you were looking for was "stripped" rather than
"threaded", i.e. "I have stripped the head on the bolt". Or maybe the
technical term "knackered" would be better.
--
Tim Mitchell

There are extractor tools specifically for this sort of problem. They have
a LH male thread, in theory you screw them in anti-clock. and it forces
the stuck bolt out. I dont know if they are effective. Presumably if you
go to a specialist tool dealer & pay high price, you get better quality.
If the thing is portable, your local garage might help, I assume that they
get this problem all the time...

Tim Mitchell wrote:

In article , The Natural Philosopher writes

Dan Gravell wrote:

Hi there,
I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of
my shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the
shower.
I recently had some problems with the shower running colder than
normal so following the advice of the manual (and this newsgroup) I
took out the thermostat, flushed it and gave it a good clean, and
reinserted it. Unfortunately this didn't work, and after a phone
call to the manufacturers I got sent a new unit (can't fault the
service btw, the company was Marflow).
Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more. The allen key (which I suspect
was probably slightly too small in the first place) just rotates in
the socket. This "threading" happened when I rescrewed after trying
the flush.
I tried extracting with all manner of pliers, assuming I could get a
decent grip and twist it out, but to no avail. Perhaps I screwed it
in incorrectly.
Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?
Thanks, Dan
p.s. Sorry if threaded is not the proper term... Perhaps someone
could suggest a better one to help other people searching for
similar problems.


You have had one good suggestion - glue in the key.

Another one is to invest in a small file, and an over seze allen keye,
and file it down rather tapered til its a very tight fit, and hammer
it in.

Also I have sometimes managed to get them out using a flat blade
screwdriver which fits across two corners of the hexagon.

I think the term you were looking for was "stripped" rather than
"threaded", i.e. "I have stripped the head on the bolt". Or maybe the
technical term "knackered" would be better.

Abd of course the stud extractor - a reverse threaded self tap screw
with a socket top...it screws in to any hole anti-clockwise and jams
there. Used for pulling broken studs out of almost anything.

Dan Gravell wrote:
Hi there,

I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of my
shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the shower.

I recently had some problems with the shower running colder than normal
so following the advice of the manual (and this newsgroup) I took out
the thermostat, flushed it and gave it a good clean, and reinserted it.
Unfortunately this didn't work, and after a phone call to the
manufacturers I got sent a new unit (can't fault the service btw, the
company was Marflow).

Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more. The allen key (which I suspect was
probably slightly too small in the first place) just rotates in the
socket. This "threading" happened when I rescrewed after trying the flush.

I tried extracting with all manner of pliers, assuming I could get a
decent grip and twist it out, but to no avail. Perhaps I screwed it in
incorrectly.

Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?

Thanks, Dan

p.s. Sorry if threaded is not the proper term... Perhaps someone could
suggest a better one to help other people searching for similar problems.

Have you seen stud extractors? Tapered tools with a coarse left handed
thread in them. You might have to drill a deeper hole in the allen
screw though.

Don't buy cheapo ones - I bought a set of Draper ones to extract a
sheared bleed nipple in a car brake caliper some years ago - it
splintered as I was inserting it with only gentle pressure on the
spanner so making the problem worse.

Phil

"Dan Gravell" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of my
shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the shower.

I recently had some problems with the shower running colder than normal
so following the advice of the manual (and this newsgroup) I took out
the thermostat, flushed it and gave it a good clean, and reinserted it.
Unfortunately this didn't work, and after a phone call to the
manufacturers I got sent a new unit (can't fault the service btw, the
company was Marflow).

Now, the problem is that when I went to install the thermostat, I
realised the screw's inside has become threaded, in that it is almost
circular and not hexagonal any more. The allen key (which I suspect was
probably slightly too small in the first place) just rotates in the
socket. This "threading" happened when I rescrewed after trying the flush.

I tried extracting with all manner of pliers, assuming I could get a
decent grip and twist it out, but to no avail. Perhaps I screwed it in
incorrectly.

Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?

Thanks, Dan

p.s. Sorry if threaded is not the proper term... Perhaps someone could
suggest a better one to help other people searching for similar problems.

I may have misunderstood the question but no-one has mentioned what I call a
stud extractor but should, I suppose, more correctly be called a 'broken
stud extractor.' They are intended for use on a broken stud (When a
hexagonal bolt head has broken off or badly damaged. A pilot hole is drilled
into the stud and the extractor pushed into the hole and the extractor used
to extract the stud. With luck the rounded hexagonal hole may be sufficient
to engage with the extractor and you will not to drill a pilot hole.

For a picture do a Google on "broken stud extractor" A quick look shows that
Axminster sell a set at £1.95 and Machine Mart for considerably more!

Have you any friends or neighbours who have done their own car maintenance?
They will almost certainly have a set.

Ask you local garage.

Look in Yellow Pages under 'Tools'

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Abd of course the stud extractor - a reverse threaded self tap
screw with a socket top...it screws in to any hole anti-clockwise
and jams there. Used for pulling broken studs out of almost
anything.

Useful for extracting non-siezed broken threaded components -
otherwise useful for jamming undrillable fragments of hardened
steel in holes drilled in siezed broken threaded components.


J.B.

John Flax wrote:
"Dan Gravell" wrote in message
...

I have a very small allen key screw ...

I may have misunderstood the question but no-one has mentioned what I
call a stud extractor

The OP is trying to remove what sounds like a grub screw (I'd guess) only a
few mm in diameter. Can you get extractors that small?

--
Laurie R

Grouch wrote:
||
|| What's an oilstone?
||
|| Dan

lol A stone you put oil on. used for sharping chisels and the like.

--
Grouch


Right; I'll go buy one when I pop down the shops with this order for a
long stand too

As I said, _noobie_

Dan Gravell wrote:
|| Grouch wrote:
|||||
||||| What's an oilstone?
|||||
||||| Dan
|||
||| lol A stone you put oil on. used for sharping chisels and the
||| like.
|||
||| --
||| Grouch
|||
||
|| Right; I'll go buy one when I pop down the shops with this order for
|| a long stand too
||
|| As I said, _noobie_

Dont do that he'll give you a Brick. :-)
the real name for it is Pomice stone

--
Grouch

Dan Gravell wrote in message ...
Hi there,

I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of my
shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the shower.



You could try those "star" ended screwdriver bits & hammer it in but
you might do damage to where the screw fits in.

You could drill it out - you've already got a pilot hole of sorts. A
reverse drill would be better but you could just drill through then
pick out the remainder.

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:32:01 +0100, Dan Gravell
wrote:


I'm pretty sure even if I flattened it it would not work, the screw is
more or less circular inside now, and the key itself seems very soft as
that has also warped slightly.

Unless you have tried really hard there is a good chance there are
some lands (flat bits) left. Try getting a set of both imperial and
metric allan keys (usually supplied on a ring or holder) from the
likes of B&Q and get a sheet of fairly fine abrasive paper. (I'd
guess it will be metric). Find the key you really need - you have
been given the wrong one as hex screws don't round off normally.
Put the abrasive paper on a sheet of glass or other very hard flat
surface and hold the hex key perpendicular. Rub the end on the
abrasive paper in a circular motion while holding it perpendicular.
You should quickly end up with a nice flat end at right angles to the
hex key and with good well defined sharp edges - a bit like the blunt
end of a pencil.

Spray some WD40 into the damaged hex stud and leave for 6 hours.

Carefully align the key with the worn plug and gently tap it into
place. If you have room have one person tapping the key while
another tries to turn it, if you don't then press into the key as you
are turning it. If you get exactly the right size key there is a
good chance this will work.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Jerry Built" ] wrote in message
news:J2EIN5AGGJMIB1MFCCCKDZKAGDAGNXNVJVDSAGML@zipl ip.com...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Abd of course the stud extractor - a reverse threaded self tap
screw with a socket top...it screws in to any hole anti-clockwise
and jams there.

Sometimes ;-)

Sometimes, it expands what it was driven into and causes it to get even more
jammed into the threaded hole :-((((


Useful for extracting non-siezed broken threaded components -
otherwise useful for jamming undrillable fragments of hardened
steel in holes drilled in siezed broken threaded components.

The solution to this un-drillable problem is to find the drill to drill out
the extractor. I would suggest you buy a solid tungsten carbide drill, as
used by the engineering industry (usually for drilling carbon fibre) to
drill out the extractor. And yes, I have done it many years ago, several
times.

There is nothing un-drillable.

Dave

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think the term you were looking for was "stripped" rather than
"threaded", i.e. "I have stripped the head on the bolt". Or maybe the
technical term "knackered" would be better.

Abd of course the stud extractor - a reverse threaded self tap screw
with a socket top...it screws in to any hole anti-clockwise and jams
there. Used for pulling broken studs out of almost anything.

Usually called Easi-out. They either split the top of the screw due to
side forces caused by the taper, or break off and are impossible to drill
out due to being made of hardened steel. Make sure you buy good quality
ones - market stall ones are usually just rubbish.

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dan Gravell" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

I have a very small allen key screw which screws into the bottom of my
shower mixer unit to fasten the thermostat and control to the shower.

The name you need to use if you have to buy a replacement is a hexagonal
socket screw. If, as I suspect, there is no head on the screw, it is a
hexagonal socket grub screw.

....
Anybody got any suggestions for extracting this screw? I thought
possibly using a junior hacksaw to create a slot to use a normal
screwdriver to screw it out. Would that work? Or would it just mangle
the screw?

That would be my approach, if you can get to the screw with the hacksaw and
it is large enough that the slot width is not more than 1/3 the screw
diameter. However, I wouldn't try reusing a screw that had been removed that
way. You will need to buy a replacement, either from the manufacturer or a
good hardware shop.

Colin Bignell

Elessar wrote:

John Flax wrote:

The OP is trying to remove what sounds like a grub screw (I'd guess) only a
few mm in diameter. Can you get extractors that small?


That's right, it was a grub screw. The intended allen key size was 3mm.

Peter Parry wrote:

Unless you have tried really hard there is a good chance there are
[snip]

Well time to swallow my pride then. I sorted it last night, I purchased
one hacksaw to attempt the screwdriver trick, but as I was in the
hardware shop I absent mindedly thought I'd buy a *proper* set of allen
keys too.

Guess what; the proper 3mm sized allen key worked first time after all.
So my problem all along was using the wrong size key blind due to
wanting to get the job done quickly.

As I said before, it's all part of _the learning experience_

Dan

Dan Gravell wrote:

Peter Parry wrote:

Unless you have tried really hard there is a good chance there are
[snip]


Well time to swallow my pride then. I sorted it last night, I purchased
one hacksaw to attempt the screwdriver trick, but as I was in the
hardware shop I absent mindedly thought I'd buy a *proper* set of allen
keys too.

Guess what; the proper 3mm sized allen key worked first time after all.
So my problem all along was using the wrong size key blind due to
wanting to get the job done quickly.



Yup.

You need metric AND imperial keys. Same with spanners.

1/16" is 1.6mm. 1.5mm slips...
3/32" is 2.4mm...slips in a 2.5mm..
7/64" is 2.8mm ...slips in a 3mm..

1/8" is 3.2mm...and a 3mm will slip...


As I said before, it's all part of _the learning experience_

Dan

In message , Dan
Gravell writes
Peter Parry wrote:

Allen keys come in both metric and imperial sizing - is it possible
you have used the wrong sort? If so the correct type might just
still work. (To make life interesting they are not marked in any way
so you can tell which is which).
If it is the correct one sometimes flattening the end on an oilstone
to give it back a good flat surface will enable you to get a bit of
grip.

I bought the key in a hardware shop, where neither of us (me nor the
shopkeep) knew what size it actually was. It just came in a wooden box,
I bought a few and used the best fit. Looking back this is probably not
the best way, but you live and learn. I'm a DIY noobie, so be gentle on
me

I'm pretty sure even if I flattened it it would not work, the screw is
more or less circular inside now, and the key itself seems very soft as
that has also warped slightly.

You could always carefully drill it out

--
geoff

In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think the term you were looking for was "stripped" rather than
"threaded", i.e. "I have stripped the head on the bolt". Or maybe the
technical term "knackered" would be better.

Abd of course the stud extractor - a reverse threaded self tap screw
with a socket top...it screws in to any hole anti-clockwise and jams
there. Used for pulling broken studs out of almost anything.

Usually called Easi-out. They either split the top of the screw due to
side forces caused by the taper, or break off and are impossible to drill
out due to being made of hardened steel. Make sure you buy good quality
ones - market stall ones are usually just rubbish.

And when the tip breaks off, you are truly in the ****

experience talking here
--
geoff