Howdy,

apart from getting sashes back to working order and the odd strange
plumbing job, I am also contemplating what to do with my loft
insulation. Right now, there is a fourth bedroom in the loft that of
course has never even heard of building regs. That aside, I suppose
winter is around the corner and I don't want all this heat loss due to
no insulation present.

I have a bit of experience with kingspan and would feel reasonably
competent to kind of waste a weekend or two to sort it out myself. But
this old roof is really windy. Every breeze just goes through and
messes up with the loft storage area. It is currently so dirty that I
would not want to store anything of use up there. Essentially, if it
could go in storage there it could also be stored permanently on our
local dump site! Also the roof itself has nail fatigue and what not
and will certainly need regular roofing attention. In my experience,
keeping these old roofes going costs about 250-300 per year.

In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation. Cost is going to be much higher than for a
bit of kingspan, and I could save myself the, uh, diy weekends. They
claim that their system makes reroofing redundant as they offer a
10/25 warranty. This sounds maybe too good to be true, sort out
insulation, keep out the wind and forget about a new roof. I have
noticed that other threads in here on insulation and what not have not
mentioned these firms, which makes me suspicious. Any opinion on what
course of action I should pursue?

Fred

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:48:16 GMT, Fred wrote:

Also the roof itself has nail fatigue and what not and will
certainly need regular roofing attention. In my experience, keeping
these old roofes going costs about 250-300 per year.

In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation.

Personally I wouldn't have such work done. Far better to have the roof
stripped, timbers replaced as required, a modern breathable sarking
fitted, new treated battens and the tiles/slates put back assuming
they are in good enough condition. Any flashing done in at least code
4 lead. You shouldn't have to worry about the roof again, the void
will no longer be a wind tunnel and be clean.

It may also be worth thinking about the resale value. What is lurking
behind that foam? The timbers can no longer dry out. You admit
yourself that the roof is not in good condition and no sarking means
that water *will* get blown in...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:48:16 GMT, (Fred) wrote:

Howdy,

apart from getting sashes back to working order and the odd strange
plumbing job, I am also contemplating what to do with my loft
insulation. Right now, there is a fourth bedroom in the loft that of
course has never even heard of building regs. That aside, I suppose
winter is around the corner and I don't want all this heat loss due to
no insulation present.

I have a bit of experience with kingspan and would feel reasonably
competent to kind of waste a weekend or two to sort it out myself. But
this old roof is really windy. Every breeze just goes through and
messes up with the loft storage area. It is currently so dirty that I
would not want to store anything of use up there. Essentially, if it
could go in storage there it could also be stored permanently on our
local dump site! Also the roof itself has nail fatigue and what not
and will certainly need regular roofing attention. In my experience,
keeping these old roofes going costs about 250-300 per year.

In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation. Cost is going to be much higher than for a
bit of kingspan, and I could save myself the, uh, diy weekends. They
claim that their system makes reroofing redundant as they offer a
10/25 warranty. This sounds maybe too good to be true, sort out
insulation, keep out the wind and forget about a new roof. I have
noticed that other threads in here on insulation and what not have not
mentioned these firms, which makes me suspicious. Any opinion on what
course of action I should pursue?

Fred


Mmmm.

If you plan to stay in the property, get it re-roofed as soon as you
can reasonably do so. A typical re-roof can reuse a proportion of
the slates and then reclaimed ones are normally used to replace any
that are too badly spalled.

The roof can be stripped, felted and battened and everything replaced
in a few days. Lead valleys etc. can be replaced, the timebers
properly inspected, treated and if need be parts replaced very easily.
Then no more roof maintenance for a very long time.

It's going to cost you in the low £k but is by far the most sensible
solution. On the very first house I bought I had this done and it
both added to the sale price a couple of years later and made the
house much easier to sell.

The foam spray solutions are a really bad idea for this application
because the roof is already in poor repair and water can blow up under
the slates. RIght now it can run down and out and if the odd drops
end up in the loft not a lot happens. If you gum it all up with
foam, there is no ventilation for the timbers to dry out and you are
inviting rot to begin. If you are planning to stay in the house,
you really don't want to face having to replace loads of rafters etc.
in a few years time.....

If you are planning on moving in a couple of years then I would do
nothing.

Personally, if I were viewing a house to buy and saw one of these
gunge jobs, I would politely take my leave. No discussion.

As a temporary solution, you could put in some pieces of Kingspan just
to provide some insulation, but I wouldn't do anyhting that reduces
roof ventilation without doing a proper re-roofing job. It could be
that the ventilation is keeping the timbers dry and preventing wet
damage.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Fred wrote:
In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation. Cost is going to be much higher than for a
bit of kingspan, and I could save myself the, uh, diy weekends. They
claim that their system makes reroofing redundant as they offer a
10/25 warranty. This sounds maybe too good to be true, sort out
insulation, keep out the wind and forget about a new roof. I have
noticed that other threads in here on insulation and what not have not
mentioned these firms, which makes me suspicious. Any opinion on what
course of action I should pursue?

When you have a new roof done in the London area, they insist on
ventilation being provided to the rafters etc. This is to keep them in
good condition.

I don't see how a roof covered from the underneath in foam can fulfil this
requirement. And apparently, most surveyors will mark down the value of a
house so treated at sale time.

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation.

I'd avoid these spray-on solutions. Not only can they make it difficult to
effect subsequent repairs, but by the time you've paid for them, you're half
(or all) the way to getting a complete reroof. When this is done, you can
specify a non-ventilated construction using breathable sarking membrane that
will enable you to entirely fill between rafters with Kingspan. 75mm between
with 25mm under will give you very good insulation. Then all you need is
vapour check plasterboard and to block up any eaves ventilation.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation.

I'd avoid these spray-on solutions. Not only can they make it difficult to
effect subsequent repairs, but by the time you've paid for them, you're
half
(or all) the way to getting a complete reroof. When this is done, you can
specify a non-ventilated construction using breathable sarking membrane
that
will enable you to entirely fill between rafters with Kingspan. 75mm
between
with 25mm under will give you very good insulation. Then all you need is
vapour check plasterboard and to block up any eaves ventilation.

The best suggestion. Fit a warm roof and eliminate loft ventilation.

The best suggestion. Fit a warm roof and eliminate loft ventilation.

Technically, it isn't a warm roof solution unless the Kingspan goes on top
of the rafters (perhaps with some between). 50mm on top and 50mm between
should be enough for a loft conversion, although I haven't got the tables in
front of me. This is only possible if you have a detached house and planning
permission, as it affects the roof line. The problem is that you can't fully
fill the rafters unless you have an equal thickness above them. You can't
have 75mm between and 25mm above, for example.

I suppose you would call my original suggested solution a warm loft, cold
roof.

Christian.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:48:16 GMT, (Fred) wrote:

Howdy,

apart from getting sashes back to working order and the odd strange
plumbing job, I am also contemplating what to do with my loft
insulation. Right now, there is a fourth bedroom in the loft that of
course has never even heard of building regs. That aside, I suppose
winter is around the corner and I don't want all this heat loss due to
no insulation present.

I have a bit of experience with kingspan and would feel reasonably
competent to kind of waste a weekend or two to sort it out myself. But
this old roof is really windy. Every breeze just goes through and
messes up with the loft storage area. It is currently so dirty that I
would not want to store anything of use up there. Essentially, if it
could go in storage there it could also be stored permanently on our
local dump site! Also the roof itself has nail fatigue and what not
and will certainly need regular roofing attention. In my experience,
keeping these old roofes going costs about 250-300 per year.

In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation. Cost is going to be much higher than for a
bit of kingspan, and I could save myself the, uh, diy weekends. They
claim that their system makes reroofing redundant as they offer a
10/25 warranty. This sounds maybe too good to be true, sort out
insulation, keep out the wind and forget about a new roof. I have
noticed that other threads in here on insulation and what not have not
mentioned these firms, which makes me suspicious. Any opinion on what
course of action I should pursue?

Fred

Hi,

One way to stop wind blowing through the loft is stapled or batten a
vapour permeable membrane like Tyvek Housewrap under the rafters.

How much of the loft is occupied by the bedroom? That will make some
difference as to how best to insulate it.

cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote:

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:48:16 GMT, (Fred) wrote:

Howdy,

apart from getting sashes back to working order and the odd strange
plumbing job, I am also contemplating what to do with my loft
insulation. Right now, there is a fourth bedroom in the loft that of
course has never even heard of building regs. That aside, I suppose
winter is around the corner and I don't want all this heat loss due to
no insulation present.

I have a bit of experience with kingspan and would feel reasonably
competent to kind of waste a weekend or two to sort it out myself. But
this old roof is really windy. Every breeze just goes through and
messes up with the loft storage area. It is currently so dirty that I
would not want to store anything of use up there. Essentially, if it
could go in storage there it could also be stored permanently on our
local dump site! Also the roof itself has nail fatigue and what not
and will certainly need regular roofing attention. In my experience,
keeping these old roofes going costs about 250-300 per year.

In comes sprayseal (and warmroof and apparantly a few others) who
offer to basically use foam to glue the roof in place and offer near
perfect thermal insulation. Cost is going to be much higher than for a
bit of kingspan, and I could save myself the, uh, diy weekends. They
claim that their system makes reroofing redundant as they offer a
10/25 warranty. This sounds maybe too good to be true, sort out
insulation, keep out the wind and forget about a new roof. I have
noticed that other threads in here on insulation and what not have not
mentioned these firms, which makes me suspicious. Any opinion on what
course of action I should pursue?

Fred

Hi,

One way to stop wind blowing through the loft is stapled or batten a
vapour permeable membrane like Tyvek Housewrap under the rafters.

How much of the loft is occupied by the bedroom? That will make some
difference as to how best to insulate it.

Thanks guys, for all the help. I am amazed by the quality of this
group. Not that I agree with everything that is being said but the
spam/flame to content ratio is very favourable indeed.

That being said, I would have thought that about 1/3 of the total loft
area is converted, however, most of the remaining loft part is not
high enough to allow to stand up.

Sooo, how best to approach so as not to have to much expenditure that
is useless come reroofing time - we bought this house to stay, but
nobody knows whether this is going to be true. We also bought on the
peak of the market (moving with young children has certain constraints
re term time) and we have no money left to pay for the reroof
immediately.

Cheers, as ever,

Flurin

"Pete C" wrote in message
...

One way to stop wind blowing through the loft is stapled or batten a
vapour permeable membrane like Tyvek Housewrap under the rafters.

I have always wondered about this approach.

1. Would be be better to remove any felt with a Stanley knife, install
Tyvek under the rafters in the loft and seal off the eves vents.

or

2. Leave the felt, install Tyvek under the rafers and right down sealing
the eves vents.

Of course in both cases install a vapour barrier on the loft floor.

This way a gale will not blow through the loft and it will still be
breathable.

1. Would be be better to remove any felt with a Stanley knife, install
Tyvek under the rafters in the loft and seal off the eves vents.

or

2. Leave the felt, install Tyvek under the rafers and right down sealing
the eves vents.

Or even naughtier, rip out the felt, fully fill the depth of rafters with
kingspan, with an additional 25mm below. Vapour check plasterboard and
replace the felt with breathable membrane when reroofing. The two layers of
kingspan (with joins very much not coincident) would act as sarking...

Don't tell the BCO!

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
1. Would be be better to remove any felt with a Stanley knife, install
Tyvek under the rafters in the loft and seal off the eves vents.

or

2. Leave the felt, install Tyvek under the rafers and right down
sealing
the eves vents.

Or even naughtier, rip out the felt, fully fill the depth of rafters with
kingspan, with an additional 25mm below. Vapour check plasterboard and
replace the felt with breathable membrane when reroofing. The two layers
of
kingspan (with joins very much not coincident) would act as sarking...

Don't tell the BCO!

This way the tiles come off. May as well put 25mm x 25mm batons over the
outside of the rafters to give a vent space so any vapour rising from the
loft will get away, and batons counter to the rafters that hold the tiles.
Then that is all legal and the BCO would not bat an eyelid.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:48:33 GMT, (Fred) wrote:

That being said, I would have thought that about 1/3 of the total loft
area is converted, however, most of the remaining loft part is not
high enough to allow to stand up.

Sooo, how best to approach so as not to have to much expenditure that
is useless come reroofing time - we bought this house to stay, but
nobody knows whether this is going to be true. We also bought on the
peak of the market (moving with young children has certain constraints
re term time) and we have no money left to pay for the reroof
immediately.

Hi,

Most economical way would be to insulate the unconverted part with
rockwool roll to the top of the joists, and around the bedroom with
thick rockwool batts. If the bedroom is hard up against the rafters
slide some kingspan/celotex in the gap between rafters, roof and
plasterboard.

If using tyvek/vpm under the rafters take to from the top down to just
above the rockwool and try to tuck it in at the bottom so any water
leaks go out under the eaves.

When you come to reroof the tyvek could be battened and give some
weatherproofing to the loft while the roof is redone.

There may be an insulation grant available from your energy supplier,
making it as cheap to have someone come in and do the rockwool stuff
as fitting it yourself.

cheers,
Pete.

Or even naughtier, rip out the felt, fully fill the depth of rafters with
kingspan, with an additional 25mm below. Vapour check plasterboard and
replace the felt with breathable membrane when reroofing.

This way the tiles come off.

The idea is that the tiles come off at your leisure, not at the time of
initial slash and insulation...

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
1. Would be be better to remove any felt with a Stanley knife, install
Tyvek under the rafters in the loft and seal off the eves vents.

or

2. Leave the felt, install Tyvek under the rafers and right down
sealing
the eves vents.

Or even naughtier, rip out the felt, fully fill the depth of rafters with
kingspan, with an additional 25mm below. Vapour check plasterboard and
replace the felt with breathable membrane when reroofing. The two layers
of
kingspan (with joins very much not coincident) would act as sarking...

You would need to tape the Kingspsan to prevent any water entering the loft.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:04:25 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.net...
1. Would be be better to remove any felt with a Stanley knife, install
Tyvek under the rafters in the loft and seal off the eves vents.

or

2. Leave the felt, install Tyvek under the rafers and right down
sealing
the eves vents.

Or even naughtier, rip out the felt, fully fill the depth of rafters with
kingspan, with an additional 25mm below. Vapour check plasterboard and
replace the felt with breathable membrane when reroofing. The two layers
of
kingspan (with joins very much not coincident) would act as sarking...

You would need to tape the Kingspsan to prevent any water entering the loft.


Bu this leaves water hanging around the rafters. Is that such a
good idea?
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:04:25 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.net...
1. Would be be better to remove any felt with a Stanley knife,
install
Tyvek under the rafters in the loft and seal off the eves vents.

or

2. Leave the felt, install Tyvek under the rafers and right down
sealing
the eves vents.

Or even naughtier, rip out the felt, fully fill the depth of rafters
with
kingspan, with an additional 25mm below. Vapour check plasterboard and
replace the felt with breathable membrane when reroofing. The two
layers
of
kingspan (with joins very much not coincident) would act as sarking...

You would need to tape the Kingspsan to prevent any water entering the
loft.


Bu this leaves water hanging around the rafters. Is that such a
good idea?

It was temporary in-loft fix. It would be fine if the tiles are fine. When
replacing the tiles you baton properly and fit the Tyvek on the outside of
the rafters.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:29:13 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



You would need to tape the Kingspsan to prevent any water entering the
loft.


Bu this leaves water hanging around the rafters. Is that such a
good idea?

It was temporary in-loft fix. It would be fine if the tiles are fine.

Except in this case we know that they are not. There is an ongoing
annual maintenance due to rusted and failing nails and the OP is not
able to do a re-roof yet.

Temporary fixes have a habit of lasting longer than intended.


When
replacing the tiles you baton properly and fit the Tyvek on the outside of
the rafters.

I don't disagree there, but the idea of taping things up and
restricting ventilation such that water can collect around the wood is
not wise.

having once owned a house like this and originally in similar
condition, I feel that it would be a far more practical and safer
solution to put in some low cost fibre or Rockwool batts as has been
suggested around the outside of the bedroom to at least keep that
reasonably warm for now, and then to reuse or even throw it away when
a proper job can be done to the roof.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl