In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Fredxx
wrote:
On 19/05/2021 18:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Steve Walker
wrote:
On 19/05/2021 14:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Steve Walker
wrote:
Have you never driven longer journeys "non-stop", with just pauses
to visit the toilet and swap over drivers?

Manchester to Dover, across to Calais, along to just past St.
Malo, a visit to a house, a visit to a "solicitor" to buy it, to a
hardware shop for woodworm spray, to the house, back to Calais,
across to Dover and back to Manchester. Three of us, over a
weekend, so as not to lose time off work.

You drove across the channel? No reason why your vehicle couldn't
be charged during the crossing. Likewise at the house etc you were
visiting. Electricity, unlike diesel or petrol, is available near
everywhere.

They are never going to provide charging on cross-channel ferries.

Why? Anything is possible. At one time, you had to buy petrol from a
chemist shop.

The house we were "visiting" (to buy) was not ours until we had done
the paperwork, had only a 3kW supply limit, was at the time
disconnected and we only stopped there long enough to look (bought
as seen on the day) and again for an hour to spray woodworm killer.

Charging anywhere on route, would have delayed us considerably.

Not been around when petrol was in short supply? I have been.

Not even I can recall the Suez crisis! :-)

Much later than that. Early 70s. Can remember queuing for petrol and
being restricted to a few gallons.

wiki says 1973.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Thu, 20 May 2021 08:37:12 +0100, charles wrote:

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Fredxx
wrote:
On 19/05/2021 18:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Steve Walker
wrote:
On 19/05/2021 14:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Steve Walker
wrote:
Have you never driven longer journeys "non-stop", with just
pauses to visit the toilet and swap over drivers?

Manchester to Dover, across to Calais, along to just past St.
Malo, a visit to a house, a visit to a "solicitor" to buy it, to
a hardware shop for woodworm spray, to the house, back to
Calais, across to Dover and back to Manchester. Three of us,
over a weekend, so as not to lose time off work.

You drove across the channel? No reason why your vehicle couldn't
be charged during the crossing. Likewise at the house etc you
were visiting. Electricity, unlike diesel or petrol, is available
near everywhere.

They are never going to provide charging on cross-channel ferries.

Why? Anything is possible. At one time, you had to buy petrol from
a chemist shop.

The house we were "visiting" (to buy) was not ours until we had
done the paperwork, had only a 3kW supply limit, was at the time
disconnected and we only stopped there long enough to look (bought
as seen on the day) and again for an hour to spray woodworm
killer.

Charging anywhere on route, would have delayed us considerably.

Not been around when petrol was in short supply? I have been.

Not even I can recall the Suez crisis! :-)

Much later than that. Early 70s. Can remember queuing for petrol and
being restricted to a few gallons.

wiki says 1973.

I remember having petrol coupons in 1973-74.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/2021 00:08, Steve Walker wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:57, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:

If the alternative is climate catastrophe, then I'm prepared to stop
occasionally.

How d'ye know that's the alternative?

Let's do a risk analysis:

Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
wrong, then you'll be suffering a little inconvenience unnecessarily.
That's not the end of the world.


Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
right, but we refuse to suffer a little inconvenience. That is the end
of the world.

It's not a "little inconvenience" when you are literally unable to get to
a family funeral in time without a petrol or diesel car!

The same way

"Uncle Harry's planning to die next Tuesday. Is that enough notice to make
all your travel arrangements for his funeral?"

On Thu, 20 May 2021 00:08:27 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

It's not a "little inconvenience" when you are literally unable to get
to a family funeral in time without a petrol or diesel car!

But what if we changed how we 'traditionally' do things?

Many have lost loved ones during this pandemic and were not allowed to
do what they normally might so many have planned doing 'something'
when they are able (including my mate across the road who lost his
wife mid lockdown).

I didn't go to my Dads funeral (a few years back now) nor my
stepdaughters [1] because I'm not a traditionalist and prefer to deal
with such things in my own way.

Cheers, T i m

[1] I was happy to 'play a part' where it was helpful to others, like
driving people about or looking after the dogs etc.

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In message , Fredxx
writes
On 20/05/2021 00:21, Steve Walker wrote:
On 19/05/2021 19:00, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 18:16, Steve Walker wrote:

The point is that even if you don't do it often, electric cars
aren't capable of it when needed. I don't want two different cars,
just one to fill all the roles I need it for. For me a plug-in
hybrid would make the best sense. 60 miles range would cater for me
in day to day driving on electric only, almost all the time, but
with the ability to do longer journeys, as and when, at zero notice.

One of the manufacturers was looking at a little trailer with a
motor + generator that you could hire for long journeys. Or leave in
the garage until needed, so you weren't lugging around a heavy
engine just for a trip around town. It doesn't seem to have caught
on. Maybe, it will.
But would leave you unable to tow a trailer or caravan on long
holiday trips and with lots of problems parking anywhere if needed.
I'd like to know that if I was running low on power on any journey,
I could switch to an included petrol engine if my plans changed.
Alternatively, I would love to have standardised battery packs that
could be exchanged at a "petrol" station, reducing stops to minutes.

I do envisage that sort of system. There was a proposal for Tesla along
these lines.

Full charge in 90 seconds:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/videos/battery-swap-event

I hope these batteries are not like the tiny button type I get for a
small clock (actually a watch mounted in a plinth). Some last for ages,
while others literally for just a week or two. Just imagine driving out
of the 'filling station', and only getting a couple of miles up the road
before the battery goes flat!

There's also the problem of standardization. If they're like watch
batteries, there will be hundreds of 'standard' sizes and voltages.
--
Ian

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On 20/05/2021 00:54, Steve Walker wrote:

snip

How can you plan for a sudden death and the funeral being the next day,
on the far side of Ireland?

Fly to Knock, hire a car (I don't think you can fly to Sligo any more?)

In Ireland if someone dies in the night, people are typically notified
the next day and the funeral is the day after.
Which reminds me of a friend working in Dublin who asked her manager for
a day off next week to attend a funeral. "How do you know?" was his
response.

--
Cheers
Clive

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On Thu, 20 May 2021 01:04:45 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

However, that wouldn't allow for say sliding in from the side , going in
at an angle and rotating into position or using multiple smaller packs,
to allow flexibility and optimisation of vehicle design.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what I wrote in my HND project over 40
years ago where a modularised pack would be swapped out from below by
a suitably equipped / designed 'Battery Station'.

You pull up over a bay (wheels guided by rails so you can't drive into
it, like in a car wash), the vehicle locked into position and
disabled, existing battery supported, released and lowered sub
terrain, charged battery slid into place onto lift, lifted, re-fitted,
enabled, vehicle released and they drive out. The whole process would
be automated etc (like a car wash).

A small range of modular packs covering most vehicles that have the
feature (not all need to).

If a fully charged battery suitable for your car isn't available at
that station it tells you so as you drive in (ANPR, but nowdays could
be 'live' and on your GPS).

Mobile units to do the same for people that get caught out for some
reason (on the same lines as current roadside breakdown services) or
at a straight 'paid for / call out' service.

Look how all the Just Eat / Deliveroo / Uber Eats / Home delivery (and
Uber itself) companies have expanded / reacted to the pandemic.

And us RC electric car / boat / plane / helecopter and full size
vehicle racers have been changing battery packs between runs / races
for years ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

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On 20/05/2021 09:05, Bob Eager wrote:

Much later than that. Early 70s. Can remember queuing for petrol and
being restricted to a few gallons.
wiki says 1973.
I remember having petrol coupons in 1973-74.
I can remember them being issued, but were they actually ever used in
anger (in 73/74 ?)

In article ,
Mark Carver wrote:
On 20/05/2021 09:05, Bob Eager wrote:

Much later than that. Early 70s. Can remember queuing for petrol and
being restricted to a few gallons.
wiki says 1973.
I remember having petrol coupons in 1973-74.
I can remember them being issued, but were they actually ever used in
anger (in 73/74 ?)

I never used mine.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
Clive Arthur wrote:
On 20/05/2021 00:54, Steve Walker wrote:

snip

How can you plan for a sudden death and the funeral being the next day,
on the far side of Ireland?

Fly to Knock,


cf. Fascinating Aida - Cheap Flights

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Thu, 20 May 2021 09:34:52 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

snip

There's also the problem of standardization. If they're like watch
batteries, there will be hundreds of 'standard' sizes and voltages.

There could be , or might be 'a few', like the connectors for phones
'now' are typically uUSB, USBC or whatever solution Apple comes out
with next. ;-)

So given many car brands are now owned by one parent company, or
co-developed with others, there is no reason why all those models
couldn't have the same pack? It may end up like VHS (Ford), Beta (GM)
and Laserdisk (Apple) with one winning in the end. ;-)

And say they did a 'L/M/S' range of packs, the S would be the size
supplied with an urban runaround and the M might be fitted to the same
size / weight as the runaround but 'sports' models.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 19 May 2021 15:07:11 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

...that's what a fast charge battery is all about - better heat dump
capability You can build thin flat cells with air spaces between, fin
them and fan blow them.

snip

I thought those vehicle batteries that included temperature management
were done with liquid (heating and cooling), not air?

Cheers, T i m

On 19/05/2021 21:11, Tim Streater wrote:

1) We are still coming out of the Little Ice Age.

2) We are in an interglacial and can expect to return to a period of severe
glaciation.


I understand there are lots of pet theories that it's all to do with the
sun, etc. However, the downside with those theories being wrong is
horrendous.

On Wed, 19 May 2021 14:39:49 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip

If driving all day, I'll normally take a sensible lunch break. About an
hour, or so. Same as when at work. A 1 hour re-charge is more within the
bounds of possibility.

And the key word there being 'normally', 'normal' as_considered_
with_our_current_tools / usage.

When you could only travel the distance within the range of a std
horse and coach, they built 'Coach houses' that distance apart along
any main / regularly traveled (where the trade would justify it),
expanding out from the centres until they met in the middle (like how
they often build bridges).

Then the same thing would have happened with petrol stations as the IC
powered vehicles become more common but that didn't happen with EV's
around the same time because it wasn't as 'easy' to distribute
electricity (with wires) as it was liquid fuel (tankers) even then.

Once the supply and infrastructure is in place it's much easier to
distribute such energy over wires than it is tankers. You can do it
with pipes but I think the cost / risk (with petrol, compared with
water or gas) wouldn't be viable, especially retrospectively
throughout a density populated country like ours (and for direct usage
by Joe Public).

Cheers, T i m

Fredxx wrote:
On 20/05/2021 00:21, Steve Walker wrote:


Alternatively, I would love to have standardised battery packs that
could be exchanged at a "petrol" station, reducing stops to minutes.

I do envisage that sort of system. There was a proposal for Tesla along
these lines.

Full charge in 90 seconds:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/videos/battery-swap-event


If any company could make that system work, youd think it would be Tesla.
Note the date on that video though, 2013. They dropped the idea as
unworkable in practice.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Wed, 19 May 2021 16:01:18 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article ,
GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 09:53, NY wrote:

My (diesel) car has a range of about 700 miles on a 60-litre tank.
Diesel has an energy density of about 38 MJ/litre.

The fact that your car can drive 700 miles without a fill-up does not
mean that you can drive it that far without a break.

For me, a practical use case is to be able to drive 1-2 hours between
breaks. I have a petrol car, but if I had an electric car, I'd just plug
it in at each rest break.

Assuming that there is a charge pont clear.

I think when it get's to that level of uptake, *every* parking space
will have a charging point and the load based on the worst case
typical percentage of EV's to IC that would be parked there.

They would do that because that would encourage EV drivers to park
there and so use the other facilities (like restaurants and all the
shopping / entertainment that would then also be added).

Just in the same way there is usually a food place and newsagent at /
near a railway station.

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 20 May 2021 00:54:36 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 20/05/2021 00:30, Fredxx wrote:
On 20/05/2021 00:08, Steve Walker wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:57, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:

If the alternative is climate catastrophe, then I'm prepared to
stop occasionally.

How d'ye know that's the alternative?

Let's do a risk analysis:

Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
wrong, then you'll be suffering a little inconvenience unnecessarily.
That's not the end of the world.


Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
right, but we refuse to suffer a little inconvenience. That is the
end of the world.

It's not a "little inconvenience" when you are literally unable to get
to a family funeral in time without a petrol or diesel car!

The same way we coped before the motor car, with careful planning.

How can you plan for a sudden death and the funeral being the next day,
on the far side of Ireland?

If you can't get there, you don't go. Just like today if relatives lived
in NZ for example.

On 19/05/2021 20:47, Robin wrote:
On 19/05/2021 18:55, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 17:09, Robin wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:57, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:

If the alternative is climate catastrophe, then I'm prepared to stop
occasionally.

How d'ye know that's the alternative?

Let's do a risk analysis:

Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
wrong, then you'll be suffering a little inconvenience
unnecessarily. That's not the end of the world.


Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
right, but we refuse to suffer a little inconvenience. That is the
end of the world.


I don't feel that I need to know for certain that the climate
catastrophe hypothesis is correct. It's just not fair to future
generations to risk it.

Do you think the "end of the world" hyperbole helps? I am sorry to
say that to me it just signals someone who (consciously or not) has
bought into the hyperbolic non-science. And probably also thinks that
eating meat should be banned from 2025.


I couldn't resist the wording. Sorry about that!Â* Runaway climate
change would make life on earth extremely difficult, and that is one
of the possible outcomes. Clearly, the earth would continue to exist.

Can you point to any reliable source that predicts a /runaway/
greenhouse effect (as distinct from a tipping point effect)?Â* (FTAOD I
mean before the sun moves to its red giant phase.)

You are right. I hadn't realised how unlikely that scenario is.
Nevertheless, there are clearly some nasty tipping points.


Or a tipping point effect that would make life difficult (as distinct
from rather scarcer when it comes to large mammals among others)?

Clearly, if semi-arid regions become arid, that will lead to major
difficulties for a significant chunk of the world's population.




The point, though, is that people are complaining that they may not be
able to use their favourite picnic spot on long journeys, whilst
ignoring the idea that people in arid areas may effectively be without
water. Those too losses don't seem comparable to me.


Perhaps they are just using the loss of ability to travel as an example
of the way the scale and cost of the changes required to deliver "net
zero" with current technology continue to be kept from the vast majority
of the public.


"Continue to be kept from ..." - Are you suggesting a conspiracy, or
simply that many people haven't given this much though?

On Wed, 19 May 2021 15:10:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/05/2021 13:52, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 19/05/2021 13:25, NY wrote:

snipped

Yes. Assuming you want a charging cable that is easy to coil up into
the car when not in use and which isn't so stiff and heavy that you
need to be built like Arnold Schwarzeneger to wrestle with it, you
need to keep the conductor cross section (and therefore the current)
to a reasonable level. And as you say, if you want a certain power and
the current must be low, the voltage must be frighteningly high. I'm
not sure I want to be close to a cable carrying 10 kV, no matter how
good the safety interlocks are to prevent power being applied until
the cable is proved to be safely connected, and so it will cut out as
soon as the cable is removed.

Have a separate fast charge connector under the vehicle, accessed
automatically.

and covered in mud...and subject to spray....I dont think so

What, that couldn't be 'Autocleaned' by the system (even if not
necessary with a properly designed interface).

there is a reason why fuel fillers are where they are

Yeah, nothing to do with gravity or bipeds re-fuelling whilst standing
then?

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 May 2021 14:39:49 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip

If driving all day, I'll normally take a sensible lunch break. About an
hour, or so. Same as when at work. A 1 hour re-charge is more within the
bounds of possibility.

And the key word there being 'normally', 'normal' as_considered_
with_our_current_tools / usage.

When you could only travel the distance within the range of a std
horse and coach, they built 'Coach houses' that distance apart along
any main / regularly traveled (where the trade would justify it),
expanding out from the centres until they met in the middle (like how
they often build bridges).

Then the same thing would have happened with petrol stations as the IC
powered vehicles become more common but that didn't happen with EV's
around the same time because it wasn't as 'easy' to distribute
electricity (with wires) as it was liquid fuel (tankers) even then.

Once the supply and infrastructure is in place it's much easier
to distribute such energy over wires than it is tankers.

But much worse for the vehicles charged.

You can do it with pipes but I think the cost / risk (with
petrol, compared with water or gas) wouldn't be viable,

It is actually. Done with airports and ports all the time now.

And with that pipeline that just got hacked in the USA too.

especially retrospectively throughout a density populated
country like ours (and for direct usage by Joe Public).

Works fine with airports, ports etc.

On 20/05/2021 09:35, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 20/05/2021 00:54, Steve Walker wrote:

snip

How can you plan for a sudden death and the funeral being the next
day, on the far side of Ireland?

Fly to Knock, hire a car (I don't think you can fly to Sligo any more?)

Flights to Knock are often not available (even with plenty of notice) -
routes are often not even available for months at a time and at short
notice (particularly on certain nights) there is no capacity. Hence
having to travel to Dublin or Belfast.

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2021 20:47, Robin wrote:
On 19/05/2021 18:55, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 17:09, Robin wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:57, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:

If the alternative is climate catastrophe, then I'm prepared to stop
occasionally.

How d'ye know that's the alternative?

Let's do a risk analysis:

Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
wrong, then you'll be suffering a little inconvenience unnecessarily.
That's not the end of the world.


Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
right, but we refuse to suffer a little inconvenience. That is the end
of the world.


I don't feel that I need to know for certain that the climate
catastrophe hypothesis is correct. It's just not fair to future
generations to risk it.

Do you think the "end of the world" hyperbole helps? I am sorry to say
that to me it just signals someone who (consciously or not) has bought
into the hyperbolic non-science. And probably also thinks that eating
meat should be banned from 2025.


I couldn't resist the wording. Sorry about that! Runaway climate change
would make life on earth extremely difficult, and that is one of the
possible outcomes. Clearly, the earth would continue to exist.

Can you point to any reliable source that predicts a /runaway/ greenhouse
effect (as distinct from a tipping point effect)? (FTAOD I mean before
the sun moves to its red giant phase.)

You are right. I hadn't realised how unlikely that scenario is.
Nevertheless, there are clearly some nasty tipping points.

Nope.

Or a tipping point effect that would make life difficult (as distinct
from rather scarcer when it comes to large mammals among others)?

Clearly, if semi-arid regions become arid, that will lead to major
difficulties for a significant chunk of the world's population.

Worked out fine the last time that happened.

And its very far from clear that anything we do now will prevent that.

On 20/05/2021 11:19, Scion wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 00:54:36 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 20/05/2021 00:30, Fredxx wrote:
On 20/05/2021 00:08, Steve Walker wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:57, GB wrote:
On 19/05/2021 16:18, Tim Streater wrote:

If the alternative is climate catastrophe, then I'm prepared to
stop occasionally.

How d'ye know that's the alternative?

Let's do a risk analysis:

Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
wrong, then you'll be suffering a little inconvenience unnecessarily.
That's not the end of the world.


Suppose all the scientists concerned about climate catastrophe are
right, but we refuse to suffer a little inconvenience. That is the
end of the world.

It's not a "little inconvenience" when you are literally unable to get
to a family funeral in time without a petrol or diesel car!

The same way we coped before the motor car, with careful planning.

How can you plan for a sudden death and the funeral being the next day,
on the far side of Ireland?

If you can't get there, you don't go. Just like today if relatives lived
in NZ for example.

But we can get to Ireland with *existing* vehicles. The problem is that
we are being pushed to replacement vehicles that cannot make the same
journey. We simply want to maintain the same ability that we have now
and not go backwards.