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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued'
before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Cheers. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#2
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On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote:
'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued' before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Cheers. I have a couple of the substantial old-fashioned ones where the pan is made from folded and spot welded steel sheet, a quick google suggests that these days they are all made from thinner pressed steel. But this outfit seems to have some heavy duty ones with solid wheels (at a price). https://www.wheelbarrows.co.uk/build...elbarrows.html |
#3
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On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 22:37:57 +0100, newshound wrote:
On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: 'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued' before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Cheers. I have a couple of the substantial old-fashioned ones where the pan is made from folded and spot welded steel sheet, a quick google suggests that these days they are all made from thinner pressed steel. But this outfit seems to have some heavy duty ones with solid wheels (at a price). https://www.wheelbarrows.co.uk/build...elbarrows.html Some of those look OK but! the prices for pressed steel! I always look at front, vertical struts, if fitted. Most are steel strip and too thin. One barrow had thse and they werent even shaped or straight - load-bearing almost zero. Current barrow has them but they're about 4x the thickness of modern ones. Although I can afford anything on that page I do wonder what is 'extra' over shed etc. ones at up to £100 less. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#4
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On 24/04/2021 10:01, PeterC wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 22:37:57 +0100, newshound wrote: On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: 'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued' before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Cheers. I have a couple of the substantial old-fashioned ones where the pan is made from folded and spot welded steel sheet, a quick google suggests that these days they are all made from thinner pressed steel. But this outfit seems to have some heavy duty ones with solid wheels (at a price). https://www.wheelbarrows.co.uk/build...elbarrows.html Some of those look OK but! the prices for pressed steel! I always look at front, vertical struts, if fitted. Most are steel strip and too thin. One barrow had thse and they werent even shaped or straight - load-bearing almost zero. Current barrow has them but they're about 4x the thickness of modern ones. Although I can afford anything on that page I do wonder what is 'extra' over shed etc. ones at up to £100 less. I don't know the firm at all, but they do seem to talk the right language about extra struts for stiffness. And they quote capacities in kilograms as well as litres. I suspect you do actually get what you pay for, with them. The big two-wheeler looks pretty substantial, and they have a good choice of wheels. On strut thickness, steel is expensive in the UK these days, have you bought any lately? And they are mostly made in Britain. |
#5
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On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:46:40 +0100, newshound
wrote: snip On strut thickness, steel is expensive in the UK these days, have you bought any lately? And they are mostly made in Britain. This is something I've often come across when trying to replace something old / good with something new / good, they really are made down to a price these days (even if the price we might be wiling to pay isn't an issue). When I took the (fairly old, conventional flue) tumble dryer to bits the other day, everything undid ok, there wasn't a spec of rust on any of the (substantial) steelwork, no stripped threads, wonkey screws, corroded wires / connectors and even the plastic didn't snap, all well designed etc. Depending on how bad the overall structural condition of this barrow is (albeit rusting away in places) and given what you might have to spend, *if* you could find something anywhere near equivalent, in the spirit of DIY I might be interested to see if it could be recovered using fiberglass bandage? eg. I would remove the bucket, wheel, grips and any unboltable bracketry and give the whole thing a good going over with a wire brush (in an angle grinder / drill where suitable). Sand blasting would be lovely of course. ;-) Get some 2" wide 'woven roving' and tightly wrap in a spiral fashion from one handle, round the frame and back to the other then wet out with resin. Or, better, first give the known weak / stress points a local layer first, then go over the whole thing as above, possibly a couple of times. Paint (if you want), re-assemble and use. You could even fill the inside of the tubes with expanding foam (first) to ensure any holes don't allow too much resin in and stop water getting in afterwards (drilling extra holes in the top of the tubes (low stress area) where necessary to be able to inject the foam). Probably much easier than mucking about trying to weld rusty steel and at least you know what you have once finished. I've repaired a couple of motorcycle steel front mudguards that way where they had rusted where the were joined to the inner fork brace / bracket. Get it de rusted and clean and tape up the outside. Flood the inner gaps with resin and loose fibreglass then glass over the bracket and inside the mudguard. Fill the outside (now down onto sound material underneath) sand and paint. Been on there 10 years now and not a sign of rust or any fatigue or de lamination. ;-) Cheers, T i m |
#6
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On 25/04/2021 12:02, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:46:40 +0100, newshound wrote: snip On strut thickness, steel is expensive in the UK these days, have you bought any lately? And they are mostly made in Britain. This is something I've often come across when trying to replace something old / good with something new / good, they really are made down to a price these days (even if the price we might be wiling to pay isn't an issue). When I took the (fairly old, conventional flue) tumble dryer to bits the other day, everything undid ok, there wasn't a spec of rust on any of the (substantial) steelwork, no stripped threads, wonkey screws, corroded wires / connectors and even the plastic didn't snap, all well designed etc. Depending on how bad the overall structural condition of this barrow is (albeit rusting away in places) and given what you might have to spend, *if* you could find something anywhere near equivalent, in the spirit of DIY I might be interested to see if it could be recovered using fiberglass bandage? eg. I would remove the bucket, wheel, grips and any unboltable bracketry and give the whole thing a good going over with a wire brush (in an angle grinder / drill where suitable). Sand blasting would be lovely of course. ;-) Get some 2" wide 'woven roving' and tightly wrap in a spiral fashion from one handle, round the frame and back to the other then wet out with resin. Or, better, first give the known weak / stress points a local layer first, then go over the whole thing as above, possibly a couple of times. Paint (if you want), re-assemble and use. You could even fill the inside of the tubes with expanding foam (first) to ensure any holes don't allow too much resin in and stop water getting in afterwards (drilling extra holes in the top of the tubes (low stress area) where necessary to be able to inject the foam). Probably much easier than mucking about trying to weld rusty steel and at least you know what you have once finished. I've repaired a couple of motorcycle steel front mudguards that way where they had rusted where the were joined to the inner fork brace / bracket. Get it de rusted and clean and tape up the outside. Flood the inner gaps with resin and loose fibreglass then glass over the bracket and inside the mudguard. Fill the outside (now down onto sound material underneath) sand and paint. Been on there 10 years now and not a sign of rust or any fatigue or de lamination. ;-) Cheers, T i m I think the problem with that if there is significant corrosion in a load-bearing region is that the flexing will break the resin to steel bond and eventually corrosion will occur underneath. I'd say your bike mudguard brackets are not so highly stressed as some of the parts of the barrow. That said, I am all in favour of repairing things. It all depends on the location and extent of the corrosion.. |
#7
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:02:22 +0100, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:46:40 +0100, newshound wrote: snip On strut thickness, steel is expensive in the UK these days, have you bought any lately? And they are mostly made in Britain. This is something I've often come across when trying to replace something old / good with something new / good, they really are made down to a price these days (even if the price we might be wiling to pay isn't an issue). When I took the (fairly old, conventional flue) tumble dryer to bits the other day, everything undid ok, there wasn't a spec of rust on any of the (substantial) steelwork, no stripped threads, wonkey screws, corroded wires / connectors and even the plastic didn't snap, all well designed etc. Depending on how bad the overall structural condition of this barrow is (albeit rusting away in places) and given what you might have to spend, *if* you could find something anywhere near equivalent, in the spirit of DIY I might be interested to see if it could be recovered using fiberglass bandage? snip Thanks for the suggestions, but such a repair wouldnt withstand the forces applied. There's very little metal left in some places and fibregalass wouldn't take the twisting etc. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#8
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On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote:
'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued' before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Go for a barrow with *two* wheels rather than one - much less likely to tip over, spilling its contents where you don't want them to be spilled. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
#9
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On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 23:04:37 +0100, NY wrote:
On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: 'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued' before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Go for a barrow with *two* wheels rather than one - much less likely to tip over, spilling its contents where you don't want them to be spilled. Yes, I'm considering that - although it can be difficult/impossible to get into some places. I'd like a twin-wheeler with the wheels on about 6" - 10" centres - some stability and still narrow. Could be done with the axle mounted as with one wheel with more spacing. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#10
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"PeterC" wrote in message
... On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 23:04:37 +0100, NY wrote: On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Go for a barrow with *two* wheels rather than one - much less likely to tip over, spilling its contents where you don't want them to be spilled. Yes, I'm considering that - although it can be difficult/impossible to get into some places. I'd like a twin-wheeler with the wheels on about 6" - 10" centres - some stability and still narrow. Could be done with the axle mounted as with one wheel with more spacing. Yes our wheelbarrow (Von Haus plastic pan, so not suitable for your 150 kg loads!) has its wheels spaced a bit wider than I would like. A few times I've clipped objects on the ground because the wheels seem to be very slightly wider than the pan which is the thing you see when you are judging clearance. I wouldn't go back to a single-wheel barrow - the number of times I've had those tip over on an axis between the single wheel and one of the two rear "skids"... We also have an electric barrow which is great, but that is three wheels: the front two have broad treads and inflated tyres, but the rear wheel which is used for steering is a narrow solid tyre which leaves grooves in our gravel drive, or on the lawn in anything except very dry conditions. That really should have a broad inflated tyre at the back - maybe harder to steer but kinder to lawns and gravel. On gravel there is the added problem that the rear wheel gets bogged down in the gravel and then the front wheels cannot provide enough grip to pull the barrow along: I'm wise to that and distribute the load as far as possible over the front axle. |
#11
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On 24/04/2021 10:04, PeterC wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 23:04:37 +0100, NY wrote: On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: 'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued' before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Go for a barrow with *two* wheels rather than one - much less likely to tip over, spilling its contents where you don't want them to be spilled. Yes, I'm considering that - although it can be difficult/impossible to get into some places. I'd like a twin-wheeler with the wheels on about 6" - 10" centres - some stability and still narrow. Could be done with the axle mounted as with one wheel with more spacing. Exactly. The default design is single wheeled for a good reason, for example running up a scaffold plank. Two wheelers are great where the access is reasonably flat and level, and you don't have to turn on a sixpence. |
#12
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:23:38 +0100, newshound wrote:
On 24/04/2021 10:04, PeterC wrote: On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 23:04:37 +0100, NY wrote: On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: 'My' (given to next door by a builder, left when nextdoor moved, 'rescued' before new people arrived) is about shot. The pan is OK but the chassis is rusted through in critical places and will break soon. I looked at strengthening the affected bits but I don't have the material or equipment. It's at least 30 years old and was used on building sites until next door had it. It's really well made and rather heavy (helped by the layer of mortar inside it) - I doubt that a new one would be as good. I need something robust, not the twee domestic sort, but can't find anything. Ebay, Amazon, nothing good. Builders merchants, same things but twice the price. Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. Go for a barrow with *two* wheels rather than one - much less likely to tip over, spilling its contents where you don't want them to be spilled. Yes, I'm considering that - although it can be difficult/impossible to get into some places. I'd like a twin-wheeler with the wheels on about 6" - 10" centres - some stability and still narrow. Could be done with the axle mounted as with one wheel with more spacing. Exactly. The default design is single wheeled for a good reason, for example running up a scaffold plank. Two wheelers are great where the access is reasonably flat and level, and you don't have to turn on a sixpence. I learned my barrow running on building sites many years ago, and the ability to run along a scaffold board, stop, and stand the barrow on the nose to empty it was very useful. Swivel from side to side as well. I remember builders using a shovel as a stop to help get the barrow up on the nose, especially when running in concrete. So I'm not sure how I would cope with multiple wheels! Cheers Dave R -- AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#13
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"David" wrote in message
... On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:23:38 +0100, newshound wrote: Exactly. The default design is single wheeled for a good reason, for example running up a scaffold plank. Two wheelers are great where the access is reasonably flat and level, and you don't have to turn on a sixpence. Broadly speaking, the distinction between a wheelbarrow for gardening etc and a wheelbarrow for the construction industry. I learned my barrow running on building sites many years ago, and the ability to run along a scaffold board, stop, and stand the barrow on the nose to empty it was very useful. Swivel from side to side as well. How much practice did it take (ie how many times did the barrow fall off the plank when you were learning!) before you got the hang of running a single-wheel vehicle along a plank that was not much wider than the wheel? I've always admired the skill of the drivers who drive cars on and off car transporters (*), without straying a few inches one way or the other and letting one wheel fall off the narrow ramp - without any way of seeing where the car's wheels are in relation to the ramps. I suppose the shallow lip on the ramp helps to keep an errant wheel from falling off and makes it obvious to the driver if he's strayed close to the edge. When my car had to be collected by recovery driver onto a transporter (ie all wheels off the ground) when it broke down, the driver made it look as if he could have done it with his eyes closed. (*) Eg on "Bangers and Cash". |
#15
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On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote:
Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. If you know anyone who frequents Costco ask them to have a look/keep an eye out. I've an absolute belter of a wheelbarrow from there. |
#16
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On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 11:53:58 +0100, R D S wrote:
On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. If you know anyone who frequents Costco ask them to have a look/keep an eye out. I've an absolute belter of a wheelbarrow from there. I don't, unfortunately. I thought that it was a Usanian company. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#17
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On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:26:46 +0100, PeterC wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 11:53:58 +0100, R D S wrote: On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. If you know anyone who frequents Costco ask them to have a look/keep an eye out. I've an absolute belter of a wheelbarrow from there. I don't, unfortunately. I thought that it was a Usanian company. It is, but there are 29 branches in England, Wales and Scotland. I find it well worth while, but the membership criteria are weird. If you have a business you are straight in (and a little more cheaply). Otherwise it's a bit over 30 quid a year, and I probably save that just on cat food! But individual membership is limited to (well, quite a lot of people). All public servants, education (I qualify) and various other stuff (I qualify again as a chartered engineer). -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
#18
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In article ,
Bob Eager wrote: On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:26:46 +0100, PeterC wrote: On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 11:53:58 +0100, R D S wrote: On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. If you know anyone who frequents Costco ask them to have a look/keep an eye out. I've an absolute belter of a wheelbarrow from there. I don't, unfortunately. I thought that it was a Usanian company. It is, but there are 29 branches in England, Wales and Scotland. I find it well worth while, but the membership criteria are weird. If you have a business you are straight in (and a little more cheaply). Otherwise it's a bit over 30 quid a year, and I probably save that just on cat food! But individual membership is limited to (well, quite a lot of people). All public servants, education (I qualify) and various other stuff (I qualify again as a chartered engineer). So would I, but ir's 15 miles each way to the nearest, so I never bothered. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
#19
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 15:58:00 +0100, charles wrote:
In article , Bob Eager wrote: On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:26:46 +0100, PeterC wrote: On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 11:53:58 +0100, R D S wrote: On 23/04/2021 22:28, PeterC wrote: Any pointers please to decent ones or, if none, the least bad of those available? Need metal pan and prefer solid tyre and quite big. Capable of carrying 150kg+. If you know anyone who frequents Costco ask them to have a look/keep an eye out. I've an absolute belter of a wheelbarrow from there. I don't, unfortunately. I thought that it was a Usanian company. It is, but there are 29 branches in England, Wales and Scotland. I find it well worth while, but the membership criteria are weird. If you have a business you are straight in (and a little more cheaply). Otherwise it's a bit over 30 quid a year, and I probably save that just on cat food! But individual membership is limited to (well, quite a lot of people). All public servants, education (I qualify) and various other stuff (I qualify again as a chartered engineer). So would I, but ir's 15 miles each way to the nearest, so I never bothered. 45 miles each way for me, but I go every 3 months and do a very large shop. It saves a lot of hassle for everyday items. Loo roll, kitchen roll, cat food, bulk staples, etc... -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
#20
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On 25/04/2021 14:18, Bob Eager wrote:
I find it well worth while, but the membership criteria are weird. If you have a business you are straight in (and a little more cheaply). Otherwise it's a bit over 30 quid a year, and I probably save that just on cat food! But individual membership is limited to (well, quite a lot of people). All public servants, education (I qualify) and various other stuff (I qualify again as a chartered engineer). In their home stores the other side of the pond, there is none of this. Anyone can have a Costco membership. The UK is perhaps strange, they must be protecting themselves from problem customers or practising something that ensures the well heeled get better rewarded with supply and discounts. I used to be a member back when it was the place to acquire cheap Levi Jeans and ready roasted chicken. That was before next day internet shopping became a thing. -- Adrian C |
#21
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 05:01:53 +0100, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 25/04/2021 14:18, Bob Eager wrote: I find it well worth while, but the membership criteria are weird. If you have a business you are straight in (and a little more cheaply). Otherwise it's a bit over 30 quid a year, and I probably save that just on cat food! But individual membership is limited to (well, quite a lot of people). All public servants, education (I qualify) and various other stuff (I qualify again as a chartered engineer). In their home stores the other side of the pond, there is none of this. Anyone can have a Costco membership. The UK is perhaps strange, they must be protecting themselves from problem customers or practising something that ensures the well heeled get better rewarded with supply and discounts. You don't have to be well heeled; the criteria don't guarantee that at all. The one I go to is in Essex, and if I just say that the Costco is full of 'Essex girls' and 'Essex lads', I am not being derogatory to all Essex people. But a lot of the occupations allowed don't have high pay scales. Mind, some of the Essex lads are bricklayers, so, yes, they are well heeled. -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
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