On 28/03/2021 16:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
nightjar wrote:
Many governments funded the research, while work done on SARS and
similar viruses over several years laid the foundation for the work.
However, the vaccine data was available to everybody at the same time.
The only difference between the vaccine rollout in the UK and that in
other countries was that the MRHA approved it much faster than the others.


Think it's fairly certain the UK put in firm orders for the vaccine before
others. Could be because the incompetence of this government to set up
decent testing and track and trace

I was initially an advocate of test and trace, but not now after clearly
there was never a chance it was going to be enforced. Unless you were
handsomely paid for being sick, usually government employees, there was
no way I was going to stop working without pay for simply running the
App on the phone, just because I might have come into contact, at an
unspecified distance, with someone who had contracted Covid.

The only way I was going to use the App is it I was forced to. If you
look at the kerfuffle being kicked up with having Covid passports and
whinges about privacy it was never going to happen.

It was never going to work. I suspect people faired must better with the
government issues lateral flow test at their place of work and sent back
home accordingly.

meant the only option was to throw
money at that. Just as well they did considering they bungled just about
everything else Covid related.

Yeah, like the vaccine rollout.

On 28/03/2021 14:51, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
nightjar wrote:
On 27/03/2021 14:57, Fredxx wrote:
On 27/03/2021 14:37, Pomegranate ******* wrote:

https://app.box.com/s/ba1veqjt6hx5dxfi2xpn8mci2ihndzvx

The nasty little toerag stuffs up the country and then buggers off.
Who does he think he is, Cameron?

His job is done.

Which is the caption on the picture of long lorry queues for the port in
the link.

Will you be asking for your money back, Doomy?

Some say the Brexit Dividend is the advanced rollout of the Covid
Vaccine.

Realists understand that was the result of long hours worked by the
people at MRHA to get the vaccines approved as quickly as possible. We
could have done that within the EU as well.

Of course. Even with us out of it, the EU gets blames for everything by
the UK press.

They just love a whipping boy.

I thought you called him Boris. You seem to pin all the blame on him.

On 28/03/2021 18:34, Richard wrote:
On 28/03/2021 16:23, nightjar wrote:
On 28/03/2021 12:46, Richard wrote:
On 28/03/2021 10:28, nightjar wrote:
...
I fully acknowledge that. However, that was not due to the efforts
of the UK government alone and any country could have taken
advantage of the production, had the vaccines been approved for them.

Yes, but no other government within the EU wanted to upset their
masters by taking action along the lines of what UK did.

...

That was a choice, not a requirement.

Going by past events in Europe, we know who gives in to the bullies and
who doesn't.
FFS, the Italian prime minister was gobbing off about suffocating
AstraZenica earlier this month. Do you think he would have been bold
enough on his own?

One wonders too about exactly why the European countries are so against
AstraZenica?
Could it be that they won't have the cash to splash in backhanders?
https://www.theguardian.com/business...covid-vaccines

"Algernon Goss-Custard" wrote in message
...
Pomegranate ******* posted

Are you nuts? More responsive to a crisis?

At every turn this inept government was well behind the curve.

Every government in Europe has failed to contain the crisis.

Norway has done a hell of a lot better than the UK in deaths per million.

All have probably made serious mistakes.

Not really with Norway.

Late to lock down, late to procure PPE, late to implement a working test
and trace system (remember the "world beating app last May?)

Would things have turned out any better if they had managed to do these
things any earlier?

Certainly would have if they had stopped infected people from
entering the country as early as Taiwan and New Zealand did.

Still havent done that even now.

We would still have had the second wave of infections in October 2020,

That's very arguable if they had shut the borders.

which may well have wiped out most of the sitting ducks that the spring
2020 outbreak didn't kill off.

That not correct with those who choose to
self isolate and have food etc delivered.

No-one-knows. Not you, not me.

The stats are very clear cut with deaths per million due to the virus.

When a proper inquiry is concluded we may know more.

Don't need to wait for that, the stats are very clear cut.

The UK has done worse than most except for the USA and Brazil.

It will certainly be found that the government made mistakes, some of them
knowable only in hindsight, some of them perhaps reasonably foreseeable at
the time. But as yet we don't know.

Yes we do, the stats are very clear cut. Same with the Sweden.

and then throw £37,000,000,000 at an utterly useless system.

To add insult to injury they're going to give NHS workers a 1% pay
increase when they were promised 2%..

One minute you're complaining that too much money was spent, the next that
it's not enough. Which is it?

Corse that's a stupid amount of money to ****
against the wall on what was never going to work.

A bit more dosh would be more welcome than patronising them with the clap
every week.

I'm sure it would, but there are hundreds of thousands of private sector
workers who have *lost* a great deal of their incomes, and in many cases
their jobs. And there are more of them to come.

Not in the NHS, though, or in the public sector generally. You've all been
on full pay with rock-solid job security, some of you without having to do
a hand's turn of work. And you're still whining for more.

The problem is that this government is jam packed with inexperienced
one-trick-pony Brexireers. Johnson chucked out any opponents of the
beloved Brexit doctrine,and although still Tories by nature they would
probably have made a better fist of tackling Covid than this useless lot.

Just look at the results
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...EL~CHE~IRL~ZAF

Nearly 130,000 deaths. That says it all.

No, there's a lot more to it than just one number.

Yes, the deaths per million is a much more useful number.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 04:56:29 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Hate that term.

Well, everyone hates you, you sleepless, cantankerous, trolling, senile
cretin! Don't believe it? Just ask your neighbours why they keep ignoring
you!

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

"Pomegranate *******" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:56:33 +0100, Algernon Goss-Custard
wrote:

Pomegranate ******* posted

Are you nuts? More responsive to a crisis?

At every turn this inept government was well behind the curve.

Every government in Europe has failed to contain the crisis. All have
probably made serious mistakes.

Late to
lock down, late to procure PPE, late to implement a working test and
trace system (remember the "world beating app last May?)

Would things have turned out any better if they had managed to do these
things any earlier? We would still have had the second wave of
infections in October 2020, which may well have wiped out most of the
sitting ducks that the spring 2020 outbreak didn't kill off.

No-one-knows. Not you, not me. When a proper inquiry is concluded we may
know more. It will certainly be found that the government made mistakes,
some of them knowable only in hindsight, some of them perhaps reasonably
foreseeable at the time. But as yet we don't know.

and then
throw £37,000,000,000 at an utterly useless system.

To add insult to injury they're going to give NHS workers a 1% pay
increase when they were promised 2%..


One minute you're complaining that too much money was spent, the next
that it's not enough. Which is it?

The point is that if they can squander 37,000,000,000
on a test and trace system that doesn't work

The test part works well and is the bulk of that cost.

how can they justify their meanness to NHS workers.

It isnt meanness, it's a sensible approach
given that the virus is so expensive.

I woudn't be at all surprised if they strike,

I wouldn't either given that they are such money grabbing arseholes.

especially when in Scotland they've
been given 4% backdated to Christmas.

That bull**** and Scotland didn't have to spend
anything like as much combating the virus.

A bit more dosh would be more
welcome than patronising them with the clap every week.

I'm sure it would, but there are hundreds of thousands of private sector
workers who have *lost* a great deal of their incomes, and in many cases
their jobs. And there are more of them to come.

Not in the NHS, though, or in the public sector generally. You've all
been on full pay with rock-solid job security, some of you without
having to do a hand's turn of work. And you're still whining for more.

It;s sad that private sector workers have suffered so badly but
you can't justify meanness to the public sector in those terms.

There is no meanness, just sensible spending.

It's like saying "They;ve had a kick in the ******** so
it's only fair that you also get a kick in the ********.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

Public sector pay is generally lower than private sector.

Bull**** with the NHS.

It's the price of enhanced job security.

By the way I have have no connection with the NHS so
please don't use the word "you" and "you're". You don't
have to be a public sector worker to support them.

The problem is that this government is jam packed with inexperienced
one-trick-pony Brexireers. Johnson chucked out any opponents of the
beloved Brexit doctrine,and although still Tories by nature they would
probably have made a better fist of tackling Covid than this useless
lot.

Just look at the results
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...orer?zoomToSel
ection=true&time=40..431&pickerSort=asc&pickerM etric=location&Metric=Con
firmed+deaths&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+P opulation=true&Align+outb
reaks=false&country=GBR~USA~SWE~FIN~JPN~BEL~CHE ~IRL~ZAF

Nearly 130,000 deaths. That says it all.

No, there's a lot more to it than just one number.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 06:05:30 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

UK politics? Absolutely NONE of yours, senile sociopath from Oz!

--
dennis@home to know-it-all Rodent Speed:
"You really should stop commenting on things you know nothing about."
Message-ID:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 05:36:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH more of the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On 28/03/2021 18:34, Richard wrote:
On 28/03/2021 16:23, nightjar wrote:
On 28/03/2021 12:46, Richard wrote:
On 28/03/2021 10:28, nightjar wrote:
...
I fully acknowledge that. However, that was not due to the efforts of
the UK government alone and any country could have taken advantage of
the production, had the vaccines been approved for them.

Yes, but no other government within the EU wanted to upset their
masters by taking action along the lines of what UK did.

...

That was a choice, not a requirement.

Going by past events in Europe, we know who gives in to the bullies and
who doesn't.
FFS, the Italian prime minister was gobbing off about suffocating
AstraZenica earlier this month. Do you think he would have been bold
enough on his own?

One wonders too about exactly why the European countries are so against
AstraZenica?

Basically because the initial efficacy rates didnt look anything
like as good as with the mRNA vaccines and now with some
doubts which look exaggerated about fatal blood clots.

Could it be that they won't have the cash to splash in backhanders?

Mindless conspiracy theory.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...covid-vaccines

On 28/03/2021 19:05, Pomegranate ******* wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 18:25:14 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 28/03/2021 15:05, Pomegranate ******* wrote:
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:13:27 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

On 27/03/2021 16:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 27/03/2021 14:37, Pomegranate ******* wrote:

https://app.box.com/s/ba1veqjt6hx5dxfi2xpn8mci2ihndzvx

The nasty little toerag stuffs up the country and then buggers off.
Who does he think he is, Cameron?

His job is done.

Quite a job, stuffing the country.

Will you be asking for your money back, Doomy?

Some say the Brexit Dividend is the advanced rollout of the Covid
Vaccine. Only loser remainers would think otherwise.

It is exactly what Farage and his like would say. Since much he said was
total lies.

There is and was nothing to stop any EU country making its own vaccine
arrangements. And with hindsight, I'm sure some wished they had done.

But then with hindsight, the UK could have prevented much of its death
toll from Covid too, before the vaccines became available. And, of course,
it's nowhere over yet.

IMHO, it will only be conquered by world wide cooperation. Not something
the likes of Farage would even contemplate.

You recently highlighted the practicalities of a one leviathan of a
company versus several small ones. You accepted, or at least acquiesced,
that several small ones were more efficient than one ginormous one. You
seemed peeved at this and would rather we all drove Morris Marinas.

In much the same way here, the UK is more responsive to a crisis than a
lumbering EU where thinking outside of the box is allowed.

Are you nuts? More responsive to a crisis?

Are you now going to claim the EU politicians had more foresight in
respect of the vaccine rollout?

Of course I'm not, you stupid git. I made no comparison to EU
performance. You did.

Quite.

Then best not to use generic statements which always going to be wrong.

On 28/03/2021 16:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Quite. I'm sure it escapes the Brexit lovers and their lies,

I also remember the lies of Armageddon and an impending economic
meltdown.

I suppose you think it's going awfully well so far? All those lovely fish
now ours and bringing in lots of foreign currency? The Irish border
working perfectly? No more immigrants getting in the country?

The fish issue was never going be resolved without a timetable so the
French could sell their fleets in a timely way.

I've seen supermarkets bitch and ROI bakeries whinge about the tariff on
milled flour from the UK but funnily not on bread exported from the UK.

Minor things, I'm sure you'd like to be much bigger.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 06:32:41 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
his particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 28/03/2021 16:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Quite. I'm sure it escapes the Brexit lovers and their lies,

I also remember the lies of Armageddon and an impending economic
meltdown.

I suppose you think it's going awfully well so far? All those lovely fish
now ours and bringing in lots of foreign currency? The Irish border
working perfectly? No more immigrants getting in the country?

The fish issue was never going be resolved without a timetable so the
French could sell their fleets in a timely way.

I've seen supermarkets bitch and ROI bakeries whinge about the tariff on
milled flour from the UK but funnily not on bread exported from the UK.

Minor things, I'm sure you'd like to be much bigger.

Perhaps you'd tell us all the good news after Brexit, then? Like we were
promised? The EU tripping over itself to do a decent deal with us, since
they need us more than we need them? All those other countries of the
world queuing up to do deals with the now free UK?

Or could it be they were simply lies?

No wonder Brexiteers are rather quiet these days.

And still no agreement over services. Our main earner. But plenty evidence
of financial companies moving from the UK to the EU.

--
*WHERE DO FOREST RANGERS GO TO "GET AWAY FROM IT ALL?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/03/2021 01:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 28/03/2021 16:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Quite. I'm sure it escapes the Brexit lovers and their lies,

I also remember the lies of Armageddon and an impending economic
meltdown.

I suppose you think it's going awfully well so far? All those lovely fish
now ours and bringing in lots of foreign currency? The Irish border
working perfectly? No more immigrants getting in the country?

The fish issue was never going be resolved without a timetable so the
French could sell their fleets in a timely way.

I've seen supermarkets bitch and ROI bakeries whinge about the tariff on
milled flour from the UK but funnily not on bread exported from the UK.

Minor things, I'm sure you'd like to be much bigger.

Perhaps you'd tell us all the good news after Brexit, then? Like we were
promised? The EU tripping over itself to do a decent deal with us, since
they need us more than we need them? All those other countries of the
world queuing up to do deals with the now free UK?

Did you really believe that as well as Armageddon, and an impending
economic meltdown?

Or could it be they were simply lies?

You mean like the promise of Armageddon and economic meltdown?

No wonder Brexiteers are rather quiet these days.

Some of aren't loser remainers, who seem to take stock of anything
pro-EU as if they hate the UK.

And still no agreement over services. Our main earner. But plenty evidence
of financial companies moving from the UK to the EU.

Lot's of institutions have offices in many countries. Banks will
invariably have presences in every European Country.

Your going to tell me this is a lie too, "The UK-EU Trade and
Cooperation Agreement concluded with the EU, ensures that UK firms in a
variety of service sectors can continue to access the EU market,
including as business travellers and cross-border services suppliers or
investors, while being treated no less favourably than either EU
businesses or competitors from third countries."

What you're saying is you would prefer there to be no agreement, to
bolster your puny argument why we shouldn't have carried out the will of
the people.

Can't you just move on like nearly everyone else has? Apart from a few
embittered people.

On 28/03/2021 16:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
nightjar wrote:
Many governments funded the research, while work done on SARS and
similar viruses over several years laid the foundation for the work.
However, the vaccine data was available to everybody at the same time.
The only difference between the vaccine rollout in the UK and that in
other countries was that the MRHA approved it much faster than the others.


Think it's fairly certain the UK put in firm orders for the vaccine before
others. Could be because the incompetence of this government to set up
decent testing and track and trace meant the only option was to throw
money at that. Just as well they did considering they bungled just about
everything else Covid related.


I would be surprised if that were not the standard model for governments
to invest in Covid vaccine research: Place and pay for large orders in
advance, rather than give grants without strings.

The UK government was lucky that the vaccine they invested most heavily
in, probably because the work was being done in Oxford, happened to be
the second one approved and that they had made some investment in the
Pfizer vaccine, which allowed us to get early doses of that. They didn't
invest in the Moderna vaccine and we have yet to receive the first batch
of that.

--
Colin Bignell

On 28/03/2021 16:46, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Mar 2021 at 16:23:48 BST, nightjar wrote:

On 28/03/2021 12:46, Richard wrote:
On 28/03/2021 10:28, nightjar wrote:
...
I fully acknowledge that. However, that was not due to the efforts of
the UK government alone and any country could have taken advantage of
the production, had the vaccines been approved for them.

Yes, but no other government within the EU wanted to upset their masters
by taking action along the lines of what UK did.

...

That was a choice, not a requirement.

A choice that you all applauded at the time and opined as to how stupid the UK
had been not to join it when it could.

I don't know who you are thinking of, but I never said that.

Of course the EU was going to do it
better, you all said.

Problem the EU has is that the precautionary principle is apparently wired
into the Lisbon Treaty. Which will hamper it as the years pass.

In the case of the Covid vaccine, the UK would not have been prevented
from doing exactly the same as it has done even if it had remained
within the EU. All EU member states had an option to proceed
individually, but chose not to.


--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 19:21:30 +0100, Richard
wrote:

On 28/03/2021 19:11, Pomegranate ******* wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 18:41:02 +0100, Richard
wrote:

On 28/03/2021 16:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Quite. I'm sure it escapes the Brexit lovers and their lies,

I also remember the lies of Armageddon and an impending economic
meltdown.

I suppose you think it's going awfully well so far? All those lovely fish
now ours and bringing in lots of foreign currency? The Irish border
working perfectly? No more immigrants getting in the country?

Well Dave, it is going much better than you and your ilk would like.

We'll see. Not a good start eh?

Even if everything were perfectly satisfactory, you would probably still
be bleating.

Not at all. I'm quite willing to admit I'm wrong whenever I am.

It's you Brek****ters that are doing all the whingeing. You won your
battle and now we all have to live with the consequences. You'll never
admit you were wrong. You'll all say "it's early days yet. Give it
time". And you'll be saying the same for years to come. We'll be
losing Scotland soon and quite possibly Northern Ireland and you'll
say "Nothing to do with us".

"Remoaners" might remind you occasionally what a stupid bunch of
berks you've been.

On 28/03/2021 19:13, Fredxx wrote:
....
There was nothing stopping the EU politicians from investing in vaccine
production earlier than its approval.

They did. That was a significant portion of the EUR2.7bn Emergency
Support Instrument spending.

--
Colin Bignell

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Or could it be they were simply lies?

You mean like the promise of Armageddon and economic meltdown?


Can you please give me a link to where any remainer promised Armageddon if
we left?

But there is no trouble finding out promises from Brexiteers that are
plainly lies.

--
*I used to be a banker, but then I lost interest.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 06:05:30 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"Pomegranate *******" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:56:33 +0100, Algernon Goss-Custard
wrote:

Pomegranate ******* posted

Are you nuts? More responsive to a crisis?

At every turn this inept government was well behind the curve.

Every government in Europe has failed to contain the crisis. All have
probably made serious mistakes.

Late to
lock down, late to procure PPE, late to implement a working test and
trace system (remember the "world beating app last May?)

Would things have turned out any better if they had managed to do these
things any earlier? We would still have had the second wave of
infections in October 2020, which may well have wiped out most of the
sitting ducks that the spring 2020 outbreak didn't kill off.

No-one-knows. Not you, not me. When a proper inquiry is concluded we may
know more. It will certainly be found that the government made mistakes,
some of them knowable only in hindsight, some of them perhaps reasonably
foreseeable at the time. But as yet we don't know.

and then
throw £37,000,000,000 at an utterly useless system.

To add insult to injury they're going to give NHS workers a 1% pay
increase when they were promised 2%..


One minute you're complaining that too much money was spent, the next
that it's not enough. Which is it?

The point is that if they can squander 37,000,000,000
on a test and trace system that doesn't work

The test part works well and is the bulk of that cost.

how can they justify their meanness to NHS workers.

It isnt meanness, it's a sensible approach
given that the virus is so expensive.

I woudn't be at all surprised if they strike,

I wouldn't either given that they are such money grabbing arseholes.

Lucky for you (or maybe not) that you live in Australia. If you had
the balls to say that outside a hospital you'd last about 2 minutes.


especially when in Scotland they've
been given 4% backdated to Christmas.

That bull**** and Scotland didn't have to spend
anything like as much combating the virus.

Utter ********.


A bit more dosh would be more
welcome than patronising them with the clap every week.

I'm sure it would, but there are hundreds of thousands of private sector
workers who have *lost* a great deal of their incomes, and in many cases
their jobs. And there are more of them to come.

Not in the NHS, though, or in the public sector generally. You've all
been on full pay with rock-solid job security, some of you without
having to do a hand's turn of work. And you're still whining for more.

It;s sad that private sector workers have suffered so badly but
you can't justify meanness to the public sector in those terms.

There is no meanness, just sensible spending.

Of course it's meanness. Especially now we're getting an extra
£350,000 a week for the NHS by being out of the EU.

Sensible spending? What does this inept lot know about that? Remember
all the PPE and ventilators bought from China that had to be binned?


It's like saying "They;ve had a kick in the ******** so
it's only fair that you also get a kick in the ********.

Even sillier than you usually manage and that's saying something.

Why are you trolling here anyway? You've been told to **** off.


Public sector pay is generally lower than private sector.

Bull**** with the NHS.

It's the price of enhanced job security.

By the way I have have no connection with the NHS so
please don't use the word "you" and "you're". You don't
have to be a public sector worker to support them.

The problem is that this government is jam packed with inexperienced
one-trick-pony Brexireers. Johnson chucked out any opponents of the
beloved Brexit doctrine,and although still Tories by nature they would
probably have made a better fist of tackling Covid than this useless
lot.

Just look at the results
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...orer?zoomToSel
ection=true&time=40..431&pickerSort=asc&picker Metric=location&Metric=Con
firmed+deaths&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+ Population=true&Align+outb
reaks=false&country=GBR~USA~SWE~FIN~JPN~BEL~CH E~IRL~ZAF

Nearly 130,000 deaths. That says it all.

No, there's a lot more to it than just one number.

On 29/03/2021 11:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Or could it be they were simply lies?

You mean like the promise of Armageddon and economic meltdown?


Can you please give me a link to where any remainer promised Armageddon if
we left?

But there is no trouble finding out promises from Brexiteers that are
plainly lies.

I have posted this befo

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-to-armageddon

First google hit for "osborne armageddon". You may recall Osbourne was
the Chancellor at the time, so in a position of authority. If you
believe the Guardian is an anti-EU publication, please do say.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that lies were told on both sides?

It smacks of denial or intended, or unintended dementia. We could move
forward if you wanted. Now, remind us, how long ago was the referendum?

On 29/03/2021 10:59, nightjar wrote:
On 28/03/2021 19:13, Fredxx wrote:
...
There was nothing stopping the EU politicians from investing in
vaccine production earlier than its approval.

They did. That was a significant portion of the EUR2.7bn Emergency
Support Instrument spending.

Ok, do you have details where it was spent? I genuinely haven't seen any
articles where the EU invested in actual vaccine manufacture. I do
respect I may have missed any.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 16:13:15 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Quite. I'm sure it escapes the Brexit lovers and their lies,

I also remember the lies of Armageddon and an impending economic
meltdown.

I suppose you think it's going awfully well so far? All those lovely fish
now ours and bringing in lots of foreign currency? The Irish border
working perfectly? No more immigrants getting in the country?

Dave, do please try to look on the bright side. Just think of all that
lovely sovereignty we got. Have you any plans for your share of it?

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 29/03/2021 11:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Or could it be they were simply lies?

You mean like the promise of Armageddon and economic meltdown?


Can you please give me a link to where any remainer promised Armageddon if
we left?

But there is no trouble finding out promises from Brexiteers that are
plainly lies.

I have posted this befo

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-to-armageddon

First google hit for "osborne armageddon". You may recall Osbourne was
the Chancellor at the time, so in a position of authority. If you
believe the Guardian is an anti-EU publication, please do say.

I've seen that article before. Now please point out where Osborne - not
the article writer - mentioned Armageddon?

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that lies were told on both
sides?

It's not. Merely that the leave side told far more lies - and those lies
persuaded many to vote leave, even when it has turned out not to be in
their best interests. The fishing community being an obvious one.

It smacks of denial or intended, or unintended dementia. We could move
forward if you wanted. Now, remind us, how long ago was the referendum?

Ah right. Interesting point of view from a Tory. Who blame just about
everything on past Labour governments.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-to-armageddon

First google hit for "osborne armageddon". You may recall Osbourne was
the Chancellor at the time, so in a position of authority. If you
believe the Guardian is an anti-EU publication, please do say.


There is an excellent quote the-

Were those Vote Leave Conservatives who disagreed with his analysis
completely economically illiterate? "Absolutely,” he said. "Gove + Boris +
Duncan Smith + Leadsom = A plague of half-wits.”

Never was a truer word spoken.

--
*White with a hint of M42*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Pomegranate ******* wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 16:13:15 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Quite. I'm sure it escapes the Brexit lovers and their lies,

I also remember the lies of Armageddon and an impending economic
meltdown.

I suppose you think it's going awfully well so far? All those lovely fish
now ours and bringing in lots of foreign currency? The Irish border
working perfectly? No more immigrants getting in the country?

Dave, do please try to look on the bright side. Just think of all that
lovely sovereignty we got. Have you any plans for your share of it?

Indeed. But then some of our 'sovereignty' have decided the best way is to
leave the country...

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Pomegranate ******* posted
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:56:33 +0100, Algernon Goss-Custard
wrote:

Pomegranate ******* posted
and then
throw £37,000,000,000 at an utterly useless system.

To add insult to injury they're going to give NHS workers a 1% pay
increase when they were promised 2%..

One minute you're complaining that too much money was spent, the next
that it's not enough. Which is it?

The point is that if they can squander 37,000,000,000 on a test and
trace system that doesn't work how can they justify their meanness to
NHS workers.

They've already explained that. It's because NHS workers have in general
been treated *better* in this crisis than private sector worker workers,
so far.

If you insist on a justification related to Test & Trace, then perhaps
something like "Oh dear, we've wasted 37 Billion (or whatever) on a poor
system. Better be more careful about our public finances then. No pay
rises for the moment."

I woudn't be at all surprised if they strike, especially
when in Scotland they've been given 4% backdated to Christmas.
A bit more dosh would be more
welcome than patronising them with the clap every week.

I'm sure it would, but there are hundreds of thousands of private sector
workers who have *lost* a great deal of their incomes, and in many cases
their jobs. And there are more of them to come.

Not in the NHS, though, or in the public sector generally. You've all
been on full pay with rock-solid job security, some of you without
having to do a hand's turn of work. And you're still whining for more.

It;s sad that private sector workers have suffered so badly but you
can't justify meanness to the public sector in those terms.

Why not? It seems perfectly justifiable to me (though I reject your
tendentious word "meanness"; why should NHS workers get anything at all
when nobody else is?)

It's like
saying "They;ve had a kick in the ******** so it's only fair that you
also get a kick in the ********.

Well yes. Let's replace the phrase "kick in the ********" with the more
neutral "a tough time"; then I would say that *is* a justification for
the government's policy. Although I would consider it fairer if *nobody*
got a pay rise.

Public sector pay is generally lower
than private sector. It's the price of enhanced job security.

If you really believe that, then, to be consistent, you should be
arguing for NHS workers' pay to be *reduced* by the same amount that
private sector workers have had *their* income reduced.

However, it isn't true. Public sector pay is *not* generally lower than
private sector, when you compare like with like.

By the way I have have no connection with the NHS so please don't use
the word "you" and "you're". You don't have to be a public sector
worker to support them.

No - just a dupe of propaganda.

--
Algernon

On 29/03/2021 14:20, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/03/2021 10:59, nightjar wrote:
On 28/03/2021 19:13, Fredxx wrote:
...
There was nothing stopping the EU politicians from investing in
vaccine production earlier than its approval.

They did. That was a significant portion of the EUR2.7bn Emergency
Support Instrument spending.

Ok, do you have details where it was spent? I genuinely haven't seen any
articles where the EU invested in actual vaccine manufacture. I do
respect I may have missed any.


The EU information on the Emergency Support Instrument give details of
the advance purchase agreements:


'The European Commission reached agreements with 6 pharmaceutical
companies for the purchase of vaccines against COVID-19 once authorised
for use in the EU following positive scientific recommendations by the
European Medicines Agency:

BioNTech-Pfizer to purchase up to 600 million doses. On 11 November
2020, the Commission approved a contract to purchase up to 300 million
doses. On 8 January 2021, the Commission proposed Member States to
purchase another 200 million vaccine doses, with the option to acquire
100 million additional doses. With the agreement of BioNTech-Pfizer, the
redacted Advance Purchase Agreement is available. The Purchase Agreement
is also available.

Moderna to purchase up to up to 460 million doses. On 17 February 2021,
the Commission approved a second contract to purchase up to 300 million
doses. With the agreement of Moderna, the redacted Advance Purchase
Agreement is available.

AstraZeneca to purchase 300 million doses, with an option to purchase
100 million more. With the agreement of AstraZeneca, the redacted
Advance Purchase Agreement is available

Janssen Pharmaceutica NV: one of the Janssen Pharmaceutical Companies of
Johnson & Johnson, to purchase 200 million doses, with an option to
purchase 200 million more

Sanofi-GSK to purchase up to 300 million doses. With the agreement of
Sanofi-GSK, the redacted Advance Purchase Agreement is available

CureVac for the purchase of 225 million doses on behalf of all EU Member
States, plus an option to request up to a further 180 million doses.
With the agreement of CureVac, the redacted Advance Purchase Agreement
is available'

--
Colin Bignell

On 29/03/2021 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-to-armageddon

First google hit for "osborne armageddon". You may recall Osbourne was
the Chancellor at the time, so in a position of authority. If you
believe the Guardian is an anti-EU publication, please do say.


There is an excellent quote the-

Were those Vote Leave Conservatives who disagreed with his analysis
completely economically illiterate? "Absolutely,€� he said. "Gove + Boris +
Duncan Smith + Leadsom = A plague of half-wits.€�

That simply goes to show his utter lack of judgement.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that lies were told on both
sides? Are you so truly myopic?

On 29/03/2021 16:53, nightjar wrote:
On 29/03/2021 14:20, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/03/2021 10:59, nightjar wrote:
On 28/03/2021 19:13, Fredxx wrote:
...
There was nothing stopping the EU politicians from investing in
vaccine production earlier than its approval.

They did. That was a significant portion of the EUR2.7bn Emergency
Support Instrument spending.

Ok, do you have details where it was spent? I genuinely haven't seen
any articles where the EU invested in actual vaccine manufacture. I do
respect I may have missed any.


The EU information on the Emergency Support Instrument give details of
the advance purchase agreements:


'The European Commission reached agreements with 6 pharmaceutical
companies for the purchase of vaccines against COVID-19 once authorised
for use in the EU following positive scientific recommendations by the
European Medicines Agency:

BioNTech-Pfizer to purchase up to 600 million doses. On 11 November
2020, the Commission approved a contract to purchase up to 300 million
doses.Â* On 8 January 2021, the Commission proposed Member States to
purchase another 200 million vaccine doses, with the option to acquire
100 million additional doses. With the agreement of BioNTech-Pfizer, the
redacted Advance Purchase Agreement is available. The Purchase Agreement
is also available.

Moderna to purchase up to up to 460 million doses. On 17 February 2021,
the Commission approved a second contract to purchase up to 300 million
doses. With the agreement of Moderna, the redacted Advance Purchase
Agreement is available.

AstraZeneca to purchase 300 million doses, with an option to purchase
100 million more. With the agreement of AstraZeneca, the redacted
Advance Purchase Agreement is available

Janssen Pharmaceutica NV: one of the Janssen Pharmaceutical Companies of
Johnson & Johnson, to purchase 200 million doses, with an option to
purchase 200 million more

Sanofi-GSK to purchase up to 300 million doses. With the agreement of
Sanofi-GSK, the redacted Advance Purchase Agreement is available

CureVac for the purchase of 225 million doses on behalf of all EU Member
States, plus an option to request up to a further 180 million doses.
With the agreement of CureVac, the redacted Advance Purchase Agreement
is available'

Are you saying the EU only authorised a first purchase mid November
2020? That doesn't give much time to have production up and running, ie
within a month.

I also thought that in December the UK had approved the Pfizer vaccine
so that the lateness in ordering and supply issues may well be evident
by the procrastination within the EU over approval. After all they would
have had access to the same data as the UK.

And the UK had contracts in place by at least July 2020.

In short I still feel the scale of investment between the UK and EU in
terms of timescale is wildly different.

On 29/03/2021 10:54, Pomegranate ******* wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 19:21:30 +0100, Richard
wrote:

On 28/03/2021 19:11, Pomegranate ******* wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 18:41:02 +0100, Richard
wrote:

On 28/03/2021 16:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Quite. I'm sure it escapes the Brexit lovers and their lies,

I also remember the lies of Armageddon and an impending economic
meltdown.

I suppose you think it's going awfully well so far? All those lovely fish
now ours and bringing in lots of foreign currency? The Irish border
working perfectly? No more immigrants getting in the country?

Well Dave, it is going much better than you and your ilk would like.

We'll see. Not a good start eh?

Even if everything were perfectly satisfactory, you would probably still
be bleating.

Not at all. I'm quite willing to admit I'm wrong whenever I am.

It's you Brek****ters that are doing all the whingeing. You won your
battle and now we all have to live with the consequences. You'll never
admit you were wrong. You'll all say "it's early days yet. Give it
time". And you'll be saying the same for years to come. We'll be
losing Scotland soon and quite possibly Northern Ireland and you'll
say "Nothing to do with us".

Please show me where I have whinged about leaving. The only whingeing
I've seen is by remainers and the "don't know how to vote properly" types.
You don't have to live with the consequences. Use your get up and go and
get up and go.
If Scotland and Northern Ireland leave, that's their choice. I'm sure
they'll enjoy all the benefits that being a third world country within
the EU offers. Move to either country, you know they'll be so much
better off out of the UK. Or perhaps they won't be that attractive.


"Remoaners" might remind you occasionally what a stupid bunch of
berks you've been.

On 29/03/2021 10:52, nightjar wrote:
On 28/03/2021 16:46, Tim Streater wrote:
On 28 Mar 2021 at 16:23:48 BST, nightjar wrote:

On 28/03/2021 12:46, Richard wrote:
Â* On 28/03/2021 10:28, nightjar wrote:
...
Â* I fully acknowledge that. However, that was not due to the
efforts of
Â* the UK government alone and any country could have taken
advantage of
Â* the production, had the vaccines been approved for them.
Â* Yes, but no other government within the EU wanted to upset their
masters
Â* by taking action along the lines of what UK did.
...

That was a choice, not a requirement.

A choice that you all applauded at the time and opined as to how
stupid the UK
had been not to join it when it could.

I don't know who you are thinking of, but I never said that.

Of course the EU was going to do it
better, you all said.

Problem the EU has is that the precautionary principle is apparently
wired
into the Lisbon Treaty. Which will hamper it as the years pass.

In the case of the Covid vaccine, the UK would not have been prevented
from doing exactly the same as it has done even if it had remained
within the EU. All EU member states had an option to proceed
individually, but chose not to.

And they chose not to for fear of displeasing their overlords.

On 29/03/2021 17:37, Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Mar 2021 at 16:54:53 BST, Fredxx wrote:

On 29/03/2021 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-to-armageddon

First google hit for "osborne armageddon". You may recall Osbourne was
the Chancellor at the time, so in a position of authority. If you
believe the Guardian is an anti-EU publication, please do say.


There is an excellent quote the-

Were those Vote Leave Conservatives who disagreed with his analysis
completely economically illiterate? "Absolutely,€� he said. "Gove + Boris +
Duncan Smith + Leadsom = A plague of half-wits.€�

That simply goes to show his utter lack of judgement.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that lies were told on both
sides? Are you so truly myopic?

Of course. He's been infantilised by being an EU "citizen".

I fully respect his views and political leanings.

However, when he stops showing his hatred towards others, his politics
of envy and can see the other side of the argument, we might all be able
to move forward.

On 29/03/2021 17:38, Fredxx wrote:
....
Are you saying the EU only authorised a first purchase mid November
2020? That doesn't give much time to have production up and running, ie
within a month.

The ESI was activated in April 2020*. That authorised payment to be made
for advance orders up to the quantities given above. The contract raised
on 11 November 2020 was a confirmation that the first 300 million of the
Pfizer provisionally ordered vaccine doses would be taken by the EU. The
vaccine developers had had the money many months earlier.

* Just over £31 million from the ESI went to the UK to assist with its
vaccine programme.

I also thought that in December the UK had approved the Pfizer vaccine
so that the lateness in ordering and supply issues may well be evident
by the procrastination within the EU over approval.

AIUI the main problem was that several sites, including the AstraZenica
sites in Europe, had trouble getting their production working properly.

I have worked with vaccine manufacturers during my decades in the
medical device supply industry and know it is more an art than a
science. The people I knew had to get the right concentration by mixing
different batches, some that had come out stronger than required and
some that had come out weaker. If they didn't grow enough of both, there
would be shortages.

After all they would
have had access to the same data as the UK.

Which is why I have been saying all along that the only difference
between the UK and the EU was that the UK regulators got the job done
faster.



--
Colin Bignell

On 29/03/2021 19:36, nightjar wrote:
On 29/03/2021 17:38, Fredxx wrote:
...
Are you saying the EU only authorised a first purchase mid November
2020? That doesn't give much time to have production up and running,
ie within a month.

The ESI was activated in April 2020*. That authorised payment to be made
for advance orders up to the quantities given above. The contract raised
on 11 November 2020 was a confirmation that the first 300 million of the
Pfizer provisionally ordered vaccine doses would be taken by the EU. The
vaccine developers had had the money many months earlier.

* Just over £31 million from the ESI went to the UK to assist with its
vaccine programme.

I also thought that in December the UK had approved the Pfizer vaccine
so that the lateness in ordering and supply issues may well be evident
by the procrastination within the EU over approval.

AIUI the main problem was that several sites, including the AstraZenica
sites in Europe, had trouble getting their production working properly.

I have worked with vaccine manufacturers during my decades in the
medical device supply industry and know it is more an art than a
science. The people I knew had to get the right concentration by mixing
different batches, some that had come out stronger than required and
some that had come out weaker. If they didn't grow enough of both, there
would be shortages.

After all they would have had access to the same data as the UK.

Which is why I have been saying all along that the only difference
between the UK and the EU was that the UK regulators got the job done
faster.

So you're in denial that the UK got it's order in 5 months before
contracts were agreed with the EU where UK production was being ramped
up, and the untimeliness, or perhaps delays in EU Regulatory approval is
just a coincidence and not at all a consequence of their contractual delays.

Or just incompetence with EU regulatory bureaucracy who could have
approved the vaccines in the same time as the UK if it had been
expedient to do so.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 29/03/2021 17:37, Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Mar 2021 at 16:54:53 BST, Fredxx wrote:

On 29/03/2021 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-to-armageddon

First google hit for "osborne armageddon". You may recall
Osbourne was the Chancellor at the time, so in a position of
authority. If you believe the Guardian is an anti-EU
publication, please do say.


There is an excellent quote the-

Were those Vote Leave Conservatives who disagreed with his
analysis completely economically illiterate? "Absolutely,• he
said. "Gove + Boris + Duncan Smith + Leadsom = A plague of
half-wits.•

That simply goes to show his utter lack of judgement.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that lies were told on both
sides? Are you so truly myopic?

Of course. He's been infantilised by being an EU "citizen".

I fully respect his views and political leanings.

However, when he stops showing his hatred towards others, his politics
of envy and can see the other side of the argument, we might all be able
to move forward.

Politics of envy, Fred? Please don't transfer how you view things onto
others.

I'm long retired and have made decent provision for that. I'm concerned
about the majority whose living standards will be badly effected by
Brexit. Job losses and so on. Not the very few who will benefit from it.
They are likely already rich enough.

--
*Pride is what we have. Vanity is what others have.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30/03/2021 12:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 29/03/2021 17:37, Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Mar 2021 at 16:54:53 BST, Fredxx wrote:

On 29/03/2021 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-to-armageddon

First google hit for "osborne armageddon". You may recall
Osbourne was the Chancellor at the time, so in a position of
authority. If you believe the Guardian is an anti-EU
publication, please do say.


There is an excellent quote the-

Were those Vote Leave Conservatives who disagreed with his
analysis completely economically illiterate? "Absolutely,€¢ he
said. "Gove + Boris + Duncan Smith + Leadsom = A plague of
half-wits.€¢

That simply goes to show his utter lack of judgement.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that lies were told on both
sides? Are you so truly myopic?

Of course. He's been infantilised by being an EU "citizen".

I fully respect his views and political leanings.

However, when he stops showing his hatred towards others, his politics
of envy and can see the other side of the argument, we might all be able
to move forward.

Politics of envy, Fred? Please don't transfer how you view things onto
others.

I'm long retired and have made decent provision for that. I'm concerned
about the majority whose living standards will be badly effected by
Brexit. Job losses and so on. Not the very few who will benefit from it.
They are likely already rich enough.

Quite, in a very general sense the wealth gap has increased since 2004.
Made worse by cheap labour from eastern Europe and profits by using this
cheap labour by businesses.

If you were concerned about the majority, then it makes sense to balance
the labour market in favour of those providing labour. So your argument
doesn't hold water. It's as if you favour households where no one works,
like your own, as you say who are rich enough.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
If you were concerned about the majority, then it makes sense to balance
the labour market in favour of those providing labour. So your argument
doesn't hold water. It's as if you favour households where no one works,
like your own, as you say who are rich enough.

Odd the way the right wing Brexiteers are suddenly concerned with the
common man. When before that they were simply cannon fodder.

But if you think not being able to trade is going to increase wages, carry
on with your delusions.

--
*Money isn‘t everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/03/2021 21:09, Fredxx wrote:
....
So you're in denial that the UK got it's order in 5 months before
contracts were agreed with the EU where UK production was being ramped
up, and the untimeliness, or perhaps delays in EU Regulatory approval is
just a coincidence and not at all a consequence of their contractual
delays.

The UK purchasing process is less transparent than the EU one. Hence, I
have been unable to discover whether when the UK says it had orders in
place in July 2020 it means it had placed advance orders, as the EU did
around the same time, or it had placed firm orders, which the EU did
later. I would, however, be most surprised if the UK was able to place
firm orders for products that were not even known to work at the time. I
suspect that, like the EU it simply provided finance for the research on
the understanding that it was advance payment for orders that would be
placed if and when the vaccines proved to be successful.

Or just incompetence with EU regulatory bureaucracy who could have
approved the vaccines in the same time as the UK if it had been
expedient to do so.

Regulatory authorities don't do what is expedient. they do what is
needed to confirm that a product is safe and that may take some longer
than others. If anywhere was likely to go for expediency, it would
surely be the USA, yet they were nearly a fortnight behind the UK in
approving their first vaccine, also the Pfizer vaccine.

--
Colin Bignell

On 30/03/2021 17:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
If you were concerned about the majority, then it makes sense to balance
the labour market in favour of those providing labour. So your argument
doesn't hold water. It's as if you favour households where no one works,
like your own, as you say who are rich enough.

Odd the way the right wing Brexiteers are suddenly concerned with the
common man. When before that they were simply cannon fodder.

Its a common fallacy, often enjoyed by remainers, that all Brexiters are
right wing.

May I remind you of many Labour heartland areas defected to your arch
rival. Does that make ex-Labour voters right wing, or only those who
supported Old Tory Tony Bliar?

But if you think not being able to trade is going to increase wages, carry
on with your delusions.

You are misguided if you think we're not going to be able to trade. It's
a dream shared by remainers.