I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that suports the roof are the rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45 degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to support th rafters.

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say) alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me the storage space that I need.

I feel sure that someone will tell me to consult a structural engineer but I am loathe to do so if it is a non-starter in the first place.

Comments please?

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Mint 20.04, kernel 5.4.0-42-generic, Cinnamon 4.6.7
running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 8GB of DRAM.

pinnerite wrote:

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say)
alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me
the storage space that I need.
There are companies that replace timber with metal, with or without
additional gables, this is one I've noticed who put out videos of their
work.

https://youtu.be/OrDCdVLDJvQ

On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:
I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that suports the roof are the rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45 degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to support th rafters.

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say) alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me the storage space that I need.

I feel sure that someone will tell me to consult a structural engineer but I am loathe to do so if it is a non-starter in the first place.

Comments please?

Our previous house was built with premade trusses for the roof - they
had the triangle you describe, infilled with a sort of W.

Rather than mess with the structure I cut boards to go around the struts.

A PITA, but not as bad as the alternatives.

Andy

On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:
I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that suports the roof are the rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45 degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to support th rafters.

Replace the struts with vertical struts. Not all at once.

--
Max Demian

On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:
I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that suports the roof are the rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45 degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to support th rafters.

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say) alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me the storage space that I need.

I feel sure that someone will tell me to consult a structural engineer but I am loathe to do so if it is a non-starter in the first place.

Comments please?

Yeah. Those struts are there to build down to a price, reflective of a
rise in timber prices and the ability to mass produce the trusses with
very little labour content

The problem is that there is so little wood left if you remove the
trusses that ceilings become flexible and rooves take on a 'starved
horse' appearance.

To some extent you can compensate with purlins supported off the joists
with vertical posts.

And double up the joists.
Then if you want a usable space, herring bone the joists and lay a chip
floor.



--
€œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
€œWe did this ourselves.€�

ۥ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:
I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that supports the roof are the rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45 degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

not in scotland they are not called that...tee hee
https://issuu.com/hspubs/docs/dictio...ttish-building


If I was able to remove some of the struts it would be relatively easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to support th rafters.

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say) alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me the storage space that I need.

I feel sure that someone will tell me to consult a structural engineer but I am loathe to do so if it is a non-starter in the first place.

Comments please?


go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get away
with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a flimsy
gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters down a bit
make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

The problem is if what you store is heavy like books the ceiling can after a
while still bulge downward no matter how many struts you have, so removing
them sounds like a good way to end up with your ceiling in the bedroom.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please
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"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
pinnerite wrote:

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say)
alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me
the storage space that I need.
There are companies that replace timber with metal, with or without
additional gables, this is one I've noticed who put out videos of their
work.

https://youtu.be/OrDCdVLDJvQ

On Saturday, 27 March 2021 at 08:33:24 UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
The problem is if what you store is heavy like books the ceiling can after a
while still bulge downward no matter how many struts you have, so removing
them sounds like a good way to end up with your ceiling in the bedroom.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
pinnerite wrote:

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say)
alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me
the storage space that I need.
There are companies that replace timber with metal, with or without
additional gables, this is one I've noticed who put out videos of their
work.

https://youtu.be/OrDCdVLDJvQ

Trusses are engineered to spread the loads both tensile and compression and removal of any components even with a replacement dramatically affects the integrity of the structure. Before doing anything get a structural engineer to to recalculate what you intend to do and then use a reliable builder who has a proven track record doing these types of structural changes.

On the estate my daughter lives some of the houses have rooms built into the loft. All the houses used trusses to support the roof, however the ones with the loft rooms and dormers had a large square opening in the centre of each truss but the timber sizes were much greater compared to the ordinary W trusses used on the other houses and where wider spaces were required between trusses for dormers and the like the trusses were often doubled or tripled together either side.

If all you want is storage space an easy way is to fix beams parallel to the ceiling above the insulation then as someone suggested board around the truss members. I did this in our bungalow which with a 22deg. Pitch you could never stand up in anyway but provided a crawl space whilst rewiring but could be used for storage.

Richard

go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get away
with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a flimsy
gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters down a bit
make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

Also be careful of selling in the future as a surveyor could condemn the
work and put potential purchasers off, or prevent someone getting a
mortgage on the property.

On 27/03/2021 09:45, ss wrote:


go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get
away with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a
flimsy gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters
down a bit make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

Also be careful of selling in the future as a surveyor could condemn the
work and put potential purchasers off, or prevent someone getting a
mortgage on the property.

Well if he doesn't get a building warrany which he obviously has no
intention of getting...yes.....lost count of the number of £200 letter
of comfort fees I collected for the kooncil doing these....some I
accepted some I asked for an engineers report...amazing what an engineer
will accept though...I had one where only the rafter and ceiling joists
were left and the engineer said very light storage only....still waiting
for that one to take off in a strong wind...tee hee

On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:


If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to support th rafters.


The way ours have behaved in our house over 100+ years it looks like
there was more chance of the struts supporting the ceilings below (but
didn't).

On 27/03/2021 09:45, ss wrote:


go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get
away with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a
flimsy gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters
down a bit make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

Also be careful of selling in the future as a surveyor could condemn the
work and put potential purchasers off, or prevent someone getting a
mortgage on the property.

I would advise a structural engineers report before staring any work.

They are surprisingly inexpensive


--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

On 27/03/2021 12:12, R D S wrote:
On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:


If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively
easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are
there to support th rafters.


The way ours have behaved in our house over 100+ years it looks like
there was more chance of the struts supporting the ceilings below (but
didn't).

The trusses reduce the bending moment on both rafters AND joists.

you can replace the functionality BUT it takes more wood, and probably
wood *bolted* to the existing.

Verticals one third of the way along the joist to the rafters and a
horizontal across the rafter top should do the trick, and herringboning
the rafters will further stiffen the ceiling



--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:57:13 +0000
pinnerite wrote:

I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that suports the roof are the rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45 degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to support th rafters.

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say) alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me the storage space that I need.

I feel sure that someone will tell me to consult a structural engineer but I am loathe to do so if it is a non-starter in the first place.

Comments please?

it looks like I received the answers I wanted,that it is do-able but to consult a structural engineer.

Thank you everyone that replied.

Alan


--
Mint 20.04, kernel 5.4.0-42-generic, Cinnamon 4.6.7
running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 8GB of DRAM.

On 26/03/2021 23:00, Max Demian wrote:
On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:
I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the
ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that suports the roof are the
rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45
degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively
easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are
there to support th rafters.

Replace the struts with vertical struts. Not all at once.


Err, not really. The existing ends of the struts are transfering
the load onto an internal wall which might seem to be an
innocuous partition wall but is still load bearing. Needs
closer investigation.

On 27/03/2021 07:43, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:
I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the
ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that supports the roof are the
rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45
degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

not in scotland they are not called that...tee hee
https://issuu.com/hspubs/docs/dictio...ttish-building


If I was able to remove some of the struts it would be relatively easy
to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are there to
support th rafters.

However, I suspect that there may be a way to add support to (say)
alternative struts to permit some to be removed. This would give me
the storage space that I need.

I feel sure that someone will tell me to consult a structural engineer
but I am loathe to do so if it is a non-starter in the first place.

Comments please?


go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get away
with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a flimsy
gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters down a bit
make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

Until we have a 50 year storm or snowload :-(

On 28/03/2021 18:56, Andrew wrote:
On 26/03/2021 23:00, Max Demian wrote:
On 26/03/2021 18:57, pinnerite wrote:
I want to use my bungalow's loft space for storage.

The problem is the miltitude of struts.

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the terminology:

The bits that run horizontally across the building and to which the
ceiling boards are bolted are the joists.

The bits that complete the triangle that suports the roof are the
rafters.

The pieces that are connected at 90 degrees to the rafters and 45
degrees to the joists are the struts.

There are other bits but they do not get in the way.

If I was able to remove some of the structs it would be relatively
easy to lay boards to make a "floor". The trouble is that they are
there to support th rafters.

Replace the struts with vertical struts. Not all at once.


Err, not really. The existing ends of the struts are transfering
the load onto an internal wall which might seem to be an
innocuous partition wall but is still load bearing. Needs
closer investigation.

Yes, I lived in a bungalow whose attic was partly boarded, with thicker
joists and vertical struts on the boarded area, but it was designed that
way. with a "gravity ladder" for access and a 13A socket to enable
wiring of lights.

--
Max Demian

On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 12:40:09 +0000
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 27/03/2021 09:45, ss wrote:


go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get
away with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a
flimsy gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters
down a bit make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

Also be careful of selling in the future as a surveyor could condemn the
work and put potential purchasers off, or prevent someone getting a
mortgage on the property.

I would advise a structural engineers report before staring any work.

They are surprisingly inexpensive


How would you rate inexpensive?

Can you recommend one in the North-West London area?


--
Mint 20.04, kernel 5.4.0-42-generic, Cinnamon 4.6.7
running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 8GB of DRAM.

On 29/03/2021 16:26, pinnerite wrote:
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 12:40:09 +0000
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 27/03/2021 09:45, ss wrote:


go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get
away with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a
flimsy gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters
down a bit make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

Also be careful of selling in the future as a surveyor could condemn the
work and put potential purchasers off, or prevent someone getting a
mortgage on the property.

I would advise a structural engineers report before staring any work.

They are surprisingly inexpensive


How would you rate inexpensive?

less than £200 for a full report

Can you recommend one in the North-West London area?


https://www.afpconsult.co.uk/about-us/

Ask em to quote you

If you are lucky they will design a solution for you
My guess is they have a junior eyeball it and a standard letter because
everyone else asks the same bloody question!

If they don't do london they will know someone who does


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 18:50:52 +0100
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 29/03/2021 16:26, pinnerite wrote:
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 12:40:09 +0000
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 27/03/2021 09:45, ss wrote:


go on take a chance and weaken your roof but you will probably get
away with it...I have seen people remove loads of elements even from a
flimsy gang nail truss and get away with it.....just move the oxters
down a bit make them vertical and form a smaller triangle.....

Also be careful of selling in the future as a surveyor could condemn the
work and put potential purchasers off, or prevent someone getting a
mortgage on the property.

I would advise a structural engineers report before staring any work.

They are surprisingly inexpensive


How would you rate inexpensive?

less than £200 for a full report

Can you recommend one in the North-West London area?


https://www.afpconsult.co.uk/about-us/

Ask em to quote you

If you are lucky they will design a solution for you
My guess is they have a junior eyeball it and a standard letter because
everyone else asks the same bloody question!

If they don't do london they will know someone who does



Thank you. I have looked them up and will contact them as soon as we complete.
(Still keeping my fingers crossed).

Alan

--
Mint 20.04, kernel 5.4.0-42-generic, Cinnamon 4.6.7
running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 8GB of DRAM.