https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?

That remains to be seen, particularly the price of the spare parts needed
and whether they supply the smallest part that has failed or complete
sub assemblys which mean that it isnt economic to buy and swap those.

If an SMD integrated circuit goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD
itself available make the TV "more repairable"?

Technically, yes.

How much will it cost? How much would the complete circuit board with SMD
already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done at present?

Not always, some like Apple refuse to supply parts to the general public.

It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they see fit for
the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to cover
"administrative costs".

Its unlikely they would get away with that.

But obviously could if they refuse to supply the smallest part that has
failed.

In message , Jeff Layman
writes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what
they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P
to cover "administrative costs".

Playing a green card without cost to the Govt?

Planned obsolescence has been a factor in maintaining employment for so
long, I can't quite spot where this is going.

Unreliable imports from Turkey used to prop up repair activities here?

Not many votes in telling manufacturers to give longer free guarantees?


--
Tim Lamb

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 20:13:36 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



Will this make any practical difference?

That remains to be seen, particularly the price of the spare parts needed
and whether they supply

IOW, you haven't the foggiest but you run off at the mouth anyway, as usual,
senile troll!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?

Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

--
Adrian C

On Wednesday, 10 March 2021 at 09:43:52 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?
Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

In contrast, Dell provide detailed downloadable service manuals for their computers.
It is also often possible to buy spare parts, either direct from Dell or from places
like eBay.

The BBC need to do some explaining. I have a Samsung TV which used to support
iPlayer but this capability was removed, apparently at the request of the BBC, because
its performance was not adequate. I was perfectly happy to accept occasional
crashes in preference to not having it at all. (I know there are other ways...)

John

Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


On the down side I think it might just put prices up and stifle innovation
but on the up side, it could lead to products designed around more
€œgeneric€� components rather than custom ones. This would reduce the cost
of providing a spares service.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 10 Mar 2021 at 10:26:26 GMT, "John Walliker" wrote:

On Wednesday, 10 March 2021 at 09:43:52 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?
Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

In contrast, Dell provide detailed downloadable service manuals for their
computers.
It is also often possible to buy spare parts, either direct from Dell or from
places
like eBay.

The BBC need to do some explaining. I have a Samsung TV which used to
support
iPlayer but this capability was removed, apparently at the request of the
BBC, because
its performance was not adequate. I was perfectly happy to accept occasional
crashes in preference to not having it at all. (I know there are other
ways...)

John

It would be interesting if all software sellers were required to support
Windows 95 and 16MB of RAM.

--
Roger Hayter

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:50:21 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:40:22 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what
they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P
to cover "administrative costs".


On the down side I think it might just put prices up and stifle
innovation but on the up side, it could lead to products designed around
more “generic” components rather than custom ones. This would reduce
the cost of providing a spares service.

Would be nice, but I remain sceptical.

I wonder how Apple will respond ?

It might be amusing if they decided to do a Facebook vs. Australia job
and refuse to sell their fruity products on the eastern side of the
Atlantic.

Nick

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"?

Yes, very much so. Currently independent repairers are frequently forced
to buy scrapped boards from various shady dealers in eWaste, and then
scavenge components because there is no official way to buy the part.

Or acquire schematics from dodgy Russian / Chinese ftp sites because the
maker will not make them available.

(yes Apple I am talking about you!)

Of even if you can get a part, there is no legal way of obtaining the
manufacturers configuration software that would enable the new part to
be "keyed" to the existing system.

(John Deere being famous for ****ing off lots of farmers with this one)

Or you can get a part but that relies on firmware that the maker does
not make available etc.

How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost?

If buying a complete board is an option.

Isn't the latter what's done
at present?

Not when that is either not an option, or the fix is a trivial bit of
board rework.

It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

Well quite possibly - hence why any legislation needs to impose a
requirement that the costs be proportionate and "reasonable".

Needless to say the makers will use any argument in the book they can -
say claiming that the product is too dangerous to allow "unskilled"
repair (hoping to conflate unskilled and third party repairers), or they
will erect bogus "authorised repairer programs" like apple did in the US
to try and stave off legislation. Needless to say they hoops one is
required to jump through to qualify to join and onerous, and once joined
the T&Sc actually prevent you from offering a useful repair service in
the first place!)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2021 10:36, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:49:51 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

This is an EU-led initiative.

It's a movement that has been driven mainly from the US - arguments have
been rumbling there for many years.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

I had an interesting one with an after market starter motor for the old
car. Basically a modern Denso unit adapted to fit my car by making an
custom adaptor plate. Two companies do much the same - PowerLite and WOSP.
I had a PowerLite, and a small thrust washer broke inside the pinion drive
- allowing the pinion to move freely on its splines, and only engage when
it felt like it. PowerLite don't supply any spares, and the best they
could offer was an new unit at a slightly reduced price. WOSP - who are
slightly more expensive, carry a full range of spare parts. And a fitting
kit for the pinion, which includes this washer (it's a one off - not a
standard washer) cost a couple of quid.

But PowerLite, being cheaper for much the same thing, have the biggest
share of this market. And not supplying spares likely keeps down costs.

Which likely means the average customer wants the cheapest price, not the
availability of spares.

--
*Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/03/2021 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Jeff Layman
writes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge
what they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an
exorbitant P&P to cover "administrative costs".

Playing a green card without cost to the Govt?

Planned obsolescence has been a factor in maintaining employment for so
long, I can't quite spot where this is going.

It all stems from socialism.

Basically we can make a lot of material wealth. With remarkably few
people The problem is how to distribute it. Consumerism creates jobs and
allows the private sector to distribute the wealth instead of the
government being involved.

manufacture, supply, distribution sales, and marketing - all massive job
creation schemes that would be totally unnecessary without obsolescence.

What 'right to repair' does is shift a very few of these jobs to repairmen.

Why socialism? Well its like renewable energy - the alleged aim is to on
the one hand get wealth into peoples paws and on the other, to reduce
carbon dioxide emissions, but teh method chosen becomes an end in itself
that doesnt really help., Instead of jut giving people decent stiff
free, or building nucler power stations, we end up 'creating jobs' or
'renewable energy'

I see no virtue in work. Peole should stay at home and get paid for
doing so. And let the robots build decent stuff that doesn't need
replacing every few years.

We need to decouple wealth creation from 'work' once and for all.



Unreliable imports from Turkey used to prop up repair activities here?

Not many votes in telling manufacturers to give longer free guarantees?




--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 10/03/2021 10:40, Tim+ wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


On the down side I think it might just put prices up and stifle innovation
but on the up side, it could lead to products designed around more
€œgeneric€� components rather than custom ones. This would reduce the cost
of providing a spares service.

It already has done that in the car industry - where pattern parts are
de jure...

All that has happened is that the price of new cars and service labour
has increased, as a result.

The consumer hasn't really won


Tim



--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 10 Mar 2021 at 11:21:04 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

I had an interesting one with an after market starter motor for the old
car. Basically a modern Denso unit adapted to fit my car by making an
custom adaptor plate. Two companies do much the same - PowerLite and WOSP.
I had a PowerLite, and a small thrust washer broke inside the pinion drive
- allowing the pinion to move freely on its splines, and only engage when
it felt like it. PowerLite don't supply any spares, and the best they
could offer was an new unit at a slightly reduced price. WOSP - who are
slightly more expensive, carry a full range of spare parts. And a fitting
kit for the pinion, which includes this washer (it's a one off - not a
standard washer) cost a couple of quid.

But PowerLite, being cheaper for much the same thing, have the biggest
share of this market. And not supplying spares likely keeps down costs.

Which likely means the average customer wants the cheapest price, not the
availability of spares.

Or perhaps the average customer only finds this out too late?

--
Roger Hayter

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


It's not clear to me from skimming the Government's papers if they
propose to follow the EU Directive which IIRC only requires spare parts
and repair manuals to be made available to professional repairers. And
also allows parts to be bundled - e.g. w/m bearings only available with
a shiny new s/s drum.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 10/03/2021 11:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/03/2021 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Jeff Layman
writes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge
what they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an
exorbitant P&P to cover "administrative costs".

Playing a green card without cost to the Govt?

Planned obsolescence has been a factor in maintaining employment for
so long, I can't quite spot where this is going.

It all stems from socialism.

Basically we can make a lot of material wealth. With remarkably few
people The problem is how to distribute it. Consumerism creates jobs and
allows the private sector to distribute the wealth instead of the
government being involved.

manufacture, supply, distribution sales, and marketing - all massive job
creation schemes that would be totally unnecessary without obsolescence.

What 'right to repair' does is shift a very few of these jobs to repairmen.

You seem to forget the issues regarding landfill, CO2 generation from
making new and not repairing old. It's our throw away society and you
are misguided to associate this with socialism.

Why socialism? Well its like renewable energy - the alleged aim is to on
Â*the one hand get wealth into peoples pawsÂ* and on the other, to reduce
carbon dioxide emissions, but teh method chosen becomes an end in itself
that doesnt really help., Instead of jut giving people decent stiff
free, or building nucler power stations, we end up 'creating jobs' or
'renewable energy'

It does help, as would building more nuclear power stations. The failure
is through allowing defective power stations to poison the environment
to put off the public. Your obsession doesn't help, any more T i m
promotes veganism through his fanatical views.

I see no virtue in work. Peole should stay at home and get paid for
doing so. And let the robots build decent stuff that doesn't need
replacing every few years.

I agree, there should be a national wage. Oldies get it and call it a
pension. Work should be a choice, where pay and keeping the lion share
of that pay as an encouragement to work.

Of course that's a socialist idea, where you would subject everyone to
draconian means testing.

We need to decouple wealth creation from 'work' once and for all.

So you can sit on your bum doing nothing? Wealth creation is all about
work with the aid of investment.

When a robot can build your house and cook every meal for you, then
perhaps you have a point.

Unreliable imports from Turkey used to prop up repair activities here?

Not many votes in telling manufacturers to give longer free guarantees?

On 10/03/2021 10:46, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Mar 2021 at 10:26:26 GMT, "John Walliker" wrote:

On Wednesday, 10 March 2021 at 09:43:52 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?
Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

In contrast, Dell provide detailed downloadable service manuals for their
computers.
It is also often possible to buy spare parts, either direct from Dell or from
places
like eBay.

The BBC need to do some explaining. I have a Samsung TV which used to
support
iPlayer but this capability was removed, apparently at the request of the
BBC, because
its performance was not adequate. I was perfectly happy to accept occasional
crashes in preference to not having it at all. (I know there are other
ways...)

John

It would be interesting if all software sellers were required to support
Windows 95 and 16MB of RAM.

That would depend on how long a manufacturer would be required to
provide spare parts.

Remind us, when was the last copy of Windows 95 sold?

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 09:43:47 +0000, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?

Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

Making their batteries user replaceable would be a start.

On 10/03/2021 10:59, Nick Odell wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:50:21 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:40:22 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what
they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P
to cover "administrative costs".


On the down side I think it might just put prices up and stifle
innovation but on the up side, it could lead to products designed around
more €œgeneric€� components rather than custom ones. This would reduce
the cost of providing a spares service.

Would be nice, but I remain sceptical.

I wonder how Apple will respond ?

It might be amusing if they decided to do a Facebook vs. Australia job
and refuse to sell their fruity products on the eastern side of the
Atlantic.

Which is why we should enact any legislation together with the EU, so
Apple couldn't afford to do a 'Facebook'.

On 10/03/2021 11:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/03/2021 10:40, Tim+ wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


On the down side I think it might just put prices up and stifle
innovation
but on the up side, it could lead to products designed around more
€œgeneric€� components rather than custom ones.Â* This would reduce the cost
of providing a spares service.

It already has done that in the car industry - where pattern parts are
de jure...

All that has happened is that the price of new cars and service labour
has increased, as a result.

Can you cite any link to show that to be the case?

The consumer hasn't really won

It makes repair much easier and cheaper if there are multiple
independent sources of the same component, rather than being a dealer
only part.

On 10/03/2021 12:39, mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 09:43:47 +0000, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?

Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

Making their batteries user replaceable would be a start.

Making all parts third party replaceable as well.

Apple is now locking part compatibility in software, you need to be an
authorized Apple Tech to make major part changes to a device.

--
Adrian C

On 10/03/2021 12:43, Fredxx wrote:
On 10/03/2021 11:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It already has done that in the car industry - where pattern parts are
de jure...

All that has happened is that the price of new cars and service labour
has increased, as a result.

Can you cite any link to show that to be the case?

The consumer hasn't really won

It makes repair much easier and cheaper if there are multiple
independent sources of the same component, rather than being a dealer
only part.

You know about current model BMW (traditional engine, not electric) car
batteries?

Only swappable by dealers with software.

--
Adrian C

On 10/03/2021 12:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 11:49:34 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what
they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P
to cover "administrative costs".


It's not clear to me from skimming the Government's papers if they
propose to follow the EU Directive which IIRC only requires spare parts
and repair manuals to be made available to professional repairers. And
also allows parts to be bundled - e.g. w/m bearings only available with
a shiny new s/s drum.

So TLR a difference that makes no difference ?


I doubt that.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

We tend to buy mainly Bosch appliances one of the reasons being the availability of spare parts. Their website has nice exploded diagrams of all their appliances with all the parts clearly listed and so far I have always been able to source any required part without restriction. The only thing you cannot get are the service manuals and I hope the right to repair will make them available, then again making them only available to €œtrained professionals€� is another way of cashing in by offering repair courses.

Some years back we owned a series of Nissan cars and they used to sell the official workshop manuals and I got one which was the size of a telephone book. It was OK for a lot of the standard jobs but you soon got into jobs that needed this or that service tool. Whereas a Haynes manual might recommend using a Castrol grease tin to drift in a bearing, no such chance with the official manual.

Richard

On 10/03/2021 13:17, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 12:38:35 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 10/03/2021 10:46, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Mar 2021 at 10:26:26 GMT, "John Walliker"
wrote:

On Wednesday, 10 March 2021 at 09:43:52 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?
Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

In contrast, Dell provide detailed downloadable service manuals for
their computers.
It is also often possible to buy spare parts, either direct from Dell
or from places like eBay.

The BBC need to do some explaining. I have a Samsung TV which used to
support iPlayer but this capability was removed, apparently at the
request of the BBC, because its performance was not adequate. I was
perfectly happy to accept occasional crashes in preference to not
having it at all. (I know there are other ways...)

John

It would be interesting if all software sellers were required to
support Windows 95 and 16MB of RAM.

That would depend on how long a manufacturer would be required to
provide spare parts.

Remind us, when was the last copy of Windows 95 sold?

I'd bet there are still some systems somewhere limping along on a copy.

I agree, but how long would you expect a hardware manufacturer to carry
spares? 10 years, 20 years 30 years?

I expect it will be 6 years, as it would be consistent with legal
claims. It would be a start.

One issue would be repair manuals containing proprietary information.

Another is that the importer is deemed to be the manufacturer, they come
and go making a mockery of the proposed legislation.

On 10/03/2021 12:50, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:39, mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 09:43:47 +0000, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?

Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

Making their batteries user replaceable would be a start.

Making all parts third party replaceable as well.

Apple is now locking part compatibility in software, you need to be an
authorized Apple Tech to make major part changes to a device.

Perhaps the tax regime should be different for manufacturers like apple,
where a super VAT band is introduced for ones not conforming.

There is no point in forcing Apple to conform, where the alternative is
that they, or perhaps their users, pay handsomely for the privilege.

On 10/03/2021 12:52, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:43, Fredxx wrote:
On 10/03/2021 11:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It already has done that in the car industry - where pattern parts
are de jure...

All that has happened is that the price of new cars and service
labour has increased, as a result.

Can you cite any link to show that to be the case?

The consumer hasn't really won

It makes repair much easier and cheaper if there are multiple
independent sources of the same component, rather than being a dealer
only part.

You know about current model BMW (traditional engine, not electric) car
batteries?

Only swappable by dealers with software.

I was aware of that, down to their smart charging.


I would be very surprised if the car would stop if you simply changed
the battery. Or if it didn't learn the new battery characteristic over
time. BICBW

On Wednesday, 10 March 2021 at 13:44:40 UTC, Fredxx wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:50, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:39, mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 09:43:47 +0000, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?

Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

Making their batteries user replaceable would be a start.

Making all parts third party replaceable as well.

Apple is now locking part compatibility in software, you need to be an
authorized Apple Tech to make major part changes to a device.
Perhaps the tax regime should be different for manufacturers like apple,
where a super VAT band is introduced for ones not conforming.

There is no point in forcing Apple to conform, where the alternative is
that they, or perhaps their users, pay handsomely for the privilege.

Not very practical. Of course you could apply this to things lioke car types that
are dumped, you have to get the old ones repaied new tyres have a 100% VAT put on them.

On 10/03/2021 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 10 March 2021 at 13:44:40 UTC, Fredxx wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:50, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:39, mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 09:43:47 +0000, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference?

Hopefully.

Apple needs to change its ways.

Making their batteries user replaceable would be a start.

Making all parts third party replaceable as well.

Apple is now locking part compatibility in software, you need to be an
authorized Apple Tech to make major part changes to a device.
Perhaps the tax regime should be different for manufacturers like apple,
where a super VAT band is introduced for ones not conforming.

There is no point in forcing Apple to conform, where the alternative is
that they, or perhaps their users, pay handsomely for the privilege.

Not very practical. Of course you could apply this to things lioke car types that
are dumped, you have to get the old ones repaied new tyres have a 100% VAT put on them.

Are you suggesting a manufacturer would make their tyres irreparable? I
don't get your point?

Practicalities of custom and practice, and of course safety will always
feature.

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 05:36:51 -0800, Tricky Dicky wrote:

We tend to buy mainly Bosch appliances one of the reasons being the
availability of spare parts. Their website has nice exploded diagrams of
all their appliances with all the parts clearly listed and so far I have
always been able to source any required part without restriction. The
only thing you cannot get are the service manuals and I hope the right
to repair will make them available, then again making them only
available to €œtrained professionals€� is another way of cashing in by
offering repair courses.

I agree. On the rare occasions that I haven't been able to work it out
for myself, or I want the quickest way, there are sometimes good YouTube
ionstructions - as long as you know what you are going for.



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On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


The availability of spare parts will help although I think it is only
seven years after production has stopped.

What I would like is a manual for my washing machine (pdf). Also if it
stops unexpectedly it should tell me why, i.e. what it is waiting for.

My Samsung TV is now getting on for 10 years old. I wonder how much
longer it will last. A new one would be less that half the price I
paid. I would think that a repair would be uneconomic if I had to pay
for labour. My fridge freezer compressor failed. Unfortunately a DIY
replacement is not possible because of the gas. I did find someone who
could repair it, but the cost was about 2/3rds of what I had paid for it
13 years earlier so I decided jut to buy a new one.


--
Michael Chare

On 10/03/2021 12:36, Fredxx wrote:

When a robot can build your house and cook every meal for you, then
perhaps you have a point.

A lot of people need to work for their mental wellbeing. We've seen that
during the pandemic.

On 10/03/2021 12:38, Fredxx wrote:
On 10/03/2021 10:46, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Mar 2021 at 10:26:26 GMT, "John Walliker"
wrote:

On Wednesday, 10 March 2021 at 09:43:52 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
Â* On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
Â* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077
Â*
Â* Will this make any practical difference?
Â* Hopefully.
Â* Apple needs to change its ways.

In contrast, Dell provide detailed downloadable service manuals for
their
computers.
It is also often possible to buy spare parts, either direct from Dell
or from
places
like eBay.

The BBC need to do some explaining.Â* I have a Samsung TV which used to
support
iPlayer but this capability was removed, apparently at the request of
the
BBC, because
its performance was not adequate.Â* I was perfectly happy to accept
occasional
crashes in preference to not having it at all.Â*Â* (I know there are other
ways...)

John

It would be interesting if all software sellers were required to support
Windows 95 and 16MB of RAM.

That would depend on how long a manufacturer would be required to
provide spare parts.

Remind us, when was the last copy of Windows 95 sold?

Not sure win95 is really a valid comparison. You can still write
software for it today if you wanted, and it's not as if MS ever tried
the keep the API secret or prevent others from developing for it.

Quite a different prospect when you take your 15 month old macbook to
the Apple shop, and they say it's not repairable, but we can sell you a
new one, recycle the old, and no, you can't have your data back. (or
they quote a repair fee 50% more than the cost of replacement) etc.

In many cases there is no official repair option - especially things
like water damaged iPhones - Apple categorically state nothing can be
done and refuse to even acknowledge that 3rd party repair is an option.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2021 15:18, GB wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:36, Fredxx wrote:

When a robot can build your house and cook every meal for you, then
perhaps you have a point.

A lot of people need to work for their mental wellbeing. We've seen that
during the pandemic.
No, they need to get out from their houses.
Very few people *work*, when 'at work', anyway, for most of the time


--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

On 10/03/2021 15:18, GB wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:36, Fredxx wrote:

When a robot can build your house and cook every meal for you, then
perhaps you have a point.

A lot of people need to work for their mental wellbeing. We've seen that
during the pandemic.

Personal contact doesn't have to be through work, but it certainly helps.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Mar 2021 at 11:21:04 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

I had an interesting one with an after market starter motor for the old
car. Basically a modern Denso unit adapted to fit my car by making an
custom adaptor plate. Two companies do much the same - PowerLite and WOSP.
I had a PowerLite, and a small thrust washer broke inside the pinion drive
- allowing the pinion to move freely on its splines, and only engage when
it felt like it. PowerLite don't supply any spares, and the best they
could offer was an new unit at a slightly reduced price. WOSP - who are
slightly more expensive, carry a full range of spare parts. And a fitting
kit for the pinion, which includes this washer (it's a one off - not a
standard washer) cost a couple of quid.

But PowerLite, being cheaper for much the same thing, have the biggest
share of this market. And not supplying spares likely keeps down costs.

Which likely means the average customer wants the cheapest price, not the
availability of spares.

Or perhaps the average customer only finds this out too late?

In my case, yes. The PowerLite website suggests they have UK factories
making the things. Very impressive. But my guess is they are simply a
re-seller of something made elsewhere.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 10/03/2021 11:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/03/2021 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Jeff Layman
writes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge
what they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an
exorbitant P&P to cover "administrative costs".

Playing a green card without cost to the Govt?

Planned obsolescence has been a factor in maintaining employment for
so long, I can't quite spot where this is going.

It all stems from socialism.

Basically we can make a lot of material wealth. With remarkably few
people The problem is how to distribute it. Consumerism creates jobs
and allows the private sector to distribute the wealth instead of the
government being involved.

manufacture, supply, distribution sales, and marketing - all massive
job creation schemes that would be totally unnecessary without
obsolescence.

What 'right to repair' does is shift a very few of these jobs to
repairmen.

You seem to forget the issues regarding landfill, CO2 generation from
making new and not repairing old. It's our throw away society and you
are misguided to associate this with socialism.

Remember Turnip is an ardent Trump supporter. So uses socialism as an
insult. With not a clue as to what it actually is.

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 10/03/2021 12:43, Fredxx wrote:
On 10/03/2021 11:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It already has done that in the car industry - where pattern parts are
de jure...

All that has happened is that the price of new cars and service labour
has increased, as a result.

Can you cite any link to show that to be the case?

The consumer hasn't really won

It makes repair much easier and cheaper if there are multiple
independent sources of the same component, rather than being a dealer
only part.

You know about current model BMW (traditional engine, not electric) car
batteries?

Only swappable by dealers with software.

Willing to bet it's easy to get pirated software to do this. Same as all
car maker's stuff.

--
*If at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , Jethro_uk
writes
Didn't some flavours of Windows 7 come with an inbuilt XP virtual
machine ?

IIRC not quite. If you bought W7 with a Pro licence, then you could
download the XP VM software and run it for free, otherwise you had to
buy a separate licence for it.

Adrian
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