"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 10/03/2021 10:59, Nick Odell wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:50:21 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:40:22 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge
what
they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P
to cover "administrative costs".


On the down side I think it might just put prices up and stifle
innovation but on the up side, it could lead to products designed
around
more €œgeneric€� components rather than custom ones. This would reduce
the cost of providing a spares service.

Would be nice, but I remain sceptical.

I wonder how Apple will respond ?

It might be amusing if they decided to do a Facebook vs. Australia job
and refuse to sell their fruity products on the eastern side of the
Atlantic.

Which is why we should enact any legislation together with the EU, so
Apple couldn't afford to do a 'Facebook'.

It was legislation that got facebook to do that.

On 10/03/2021 21:38, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 10/03/2021 10:59, Nick Odell wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:50:21 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:40:22 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge
what
they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant
P&P
to cover "administrative costs".


On the down side I think it might just put prices up and stifle
innovation but on the up side, it could lead to products designed
around
more €œgeneric€� components rather than custom ones.Â* This would reduce
the cost of providing a spares service.

Would be nice, but I remain sceptical.

I wonder how Apple will respond ?

It might be amusing if they decided to do a Facebook vs. Australia job
and refuse to sell their fruity products on the eastern side of the
Atlantic.

Which is why we should enact any legislation together with the EU, so
Apple couldn't afford to do a 'Facebook'.

It was legislation that got facebook to do that.

Against a small population. They might treat Europe differently with
nearly 2 orders of magnitude higher population.

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"?

Yes, very much so. Currently independent repairers are frequently forced
to buy scrapped boards from various shady dealers in eWaste, and then
scavenge components because there is no official way to buy the part.

Or acquire schematics from dodgy Russian / Chinese ftp sites because the
maker will not make them available.

(yes Apple I am talking about you!)

Of even if you can get a part, there is no legal way of obtaining the
manufacturers configuration software that would enable the new part to
be "keyed" to the existing system.

(John Deere being famous for ****ing off lots of farmers with this one)

Or you can get a part but that relies on firmware that the maker does
not make available etc.

How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost?

If buying a complete board is an option.

Isn't the latter what's done
at present?

Not when that is either not an option, or the fix is a trivial bit of
board rework.

It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

Well quite possibly - hence why any legislation needs to impose a
requirement that the costs be proportionate and "reasonable".

Needless to say the makers will use any argument in the book they can -
say claiming that the product is too dangerous to allow "unskilled"
repair (hoping to conflate unskilled and third party repairers), or they
will erect bogus "authorised repairer programs" like apple did in the US
to try and stave off legislation. Needless to say they hoops one is
required to jump through to qualify to join and onerous, and once joined
the T&Sc actually prevent you from offering a useful repair service in
the first place!)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2021 11:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"?

Yes, very much so. Currently independent repairers are frequently forced
to buy scrapped boards from various shady dealers in eWaste, and then
scavenge components because there is no official way to buy the part.

Well, it depends if the repairer has the skill and equipment to remove
the old SMD and replace it with a new one. If the original was a
multiconnection device flow-soldered in, I doubt many would be able to
replace it. Then, of course, you might have the issue of a multilayered
PCB where a via or two has failed, or is very close to the smd.

Pricing is a very relevant issue. If the smd is priced at a high level,
and you have to add to that the repairer's fee, in the long run it might
not work out much different from a completely new circuit board which
only needs to be plugged in.

Or acquire schematics from dodgy Russian / Chinese ftp sites because the
maker will not make them available.

Maybe that's something to be considered for amending legislation. ;-)

(yes Apple I am talking about you!)

Of even if you can get a part, there is no legal way of obtaining the
manufacturers configuration software that would enable the new part to
be "keyed" to the existing system.

I can't see a way round that if it is considered commercially confidential.

(John Deere being famous for ****ing off lots of farmers with this one)

Or you can get a part but that relies on firmware that the maker does
not make available etc.

Printer cartridges come to mind!

How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost?

If buying a complete board is an option.

Isn't the latter what's done
at present?

Not when that is either not an option, or the fix is a trivial bit of
board rework.

It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

Well quite possibly - hence why any legislation needs to impose a
requirement that the costs be proportionate and "reasonable".

Needless to say the makers will use any argument in the book they can -
say claiming that the product is too dangerous to allow "unskilled"
repair (hoping to conflate unskilled and third party repairers), or they
will erect bogus "authorised repairer programs" like apple did in the US
to try and stave off legislation. Needless to say they hoops one is
required to jump through to qualify to join and onerous, and once joined
the T&Sc actually prevent you from offering a useful repair service in
the first place!)

The first few test cases of non-compliance in the EU/UK are going to be
most interesting!

--

Jeff

On 11/03/2021 16:38, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/03/2021 11:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"?

Yes, very much so. Currently independent repairers are frequently forced
to buy scrapped boards from various shady dealers in eWaste, and then
scavenge components because there is no official way to buy the part.

Well, it depends if the repairer has the skill and equipment to remove
the old SMD and replace it with a new one. If the original was a
multiconnection device flow-soldered in, I doubt many would be able to
replace it. Then, of course, you might have the issue of a multilayered
PCB where a via or two has failed, or is very close to the smd.

Well let's assume that a professional board repair outfit has the
equipment and skills required. The only thing standing in their way is
lack of official access to parts and data.

Pricing is a very relevant issue. If the smd is priced at a high level,
and you have to add to that the repairer's fee, in the long run it might
not work out much different from a completely new circuit board which
only needs to be plugged in.

If the board is available. On high priced Apple kit its not that
difficult to charge a flat rate £300 no fix no fee deal, even if the
part is £100. Especially when all Apple will offer you is a discount on
something new to bring the price down to £1000.


Or acquire schematics from dodgy Russian / Chinese ftp sites because the
maker will not make them available.

Maybe that's something to be considered for amending legislation. ;-)

(yes Apple I am talking about you!)

Of even if you can get a part, there is no legal way of obtaining the
manufacturers configuration software that would enable the new part to
be "keyed" to the existing system.

I can't see a way round that if it is considered commercially confidential.

You can't really argue that access to a part is commercially
confidential - the internal design of it perhaps.

Even access to a schematic and board view is not really confidential
since once you have access to the physical board, you can reverse
engineer the schematic.

(John Deere being famous for ****ing off lots of farmers with this one)

Or you can get a part but that relies on firmware that the maker does
not make available etc.

Printer cartridges come to mind!

Yup... and many modern cars.

Needless to say the makers will use any argument in the book they can -
say claiming that the product is too dangerous to allow "unskilled"
repair (hoping to conflate unskilled and third party repairers), or they
will erect bogus "authorised repairer programs" like apple did in the US
to try and stave off legislation. Needless to say they hoops one is
required to jump through to qualify to join and onerous, and once joined
the T&Sc actually prevent you from offering a useful repair service in
the first place!)

The first few test cases of non-compliance in the EU/UK are going to be
most interesting!

Yup, I can see a few of those coming :-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 11/03/2021 21:52, Tim Streater wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 20:20:04 GMT, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/03/2021 16:38, Jeff Layman wrote:

I can't see a way round that if it is considered commercially confidential.

You can't really argue that access to a part is commercially
confidential - the internal design of it perhaps.

Even access to a schematic and board view is not really confidential
since once you have access to the physical board, you can reverse
engineer the schematic.

Even on a multi-layer board? Well I could see GCHQ doing that, but a
repairer?

That's the problem, lack of a schematic makes it too much effort for a
repairer, but does not stop a pirate who wants to produce their own
copies and where the effort is worthwhile. Effectively there is no good
reason not to make schematics available.

On 11/03/2021 22:08, Steve Walker wrote:
On 11/03/2021 21:52, Tim Streater wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 20:20:04 GMT, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/03/2021 16:38, Jeff Layman wrote:

Â* I can't see a way round that if it is considered commercially
confidential.

You can't really argue that access to a part is commercially
confidential - the internal design of it perhaps.

Even access to a schematic and board view is not really confidential
since once you have access to the physical board, you can reverse
engineer the schematic.

Even on a multi-layer board? Well I could see GCHQ doing that, but a
repairer?

That's the problem, lack of a schematic makes it too much effort for a
repairer, but does not stop a pirate who wants to produce their own
copies and where the effort is worthwhile. Effectively there is no good
reason not to make schematics available.

No help at all faced with a 64 contact SMD PGA whose internals are
proprietary.

Design moved on from PCB layout to chip level years ago...
....and faced with that, our local Belarusian 'I fix your Apple OK?' has
a bunch of dead smartphones that he simply swaps parts from until the
customers set works


--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

On 11/03/2021 21:52, Tim Streater wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 20:20:04 GMT, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/03/2021 16:38, Jeff Layman wrote:

I can't see a way round that if it is considered commercially confidential.

You can't really argue that access to a part is commercially
confidential - the internal design of it perhaps.

Even access to a schematic and board view is not really confidential
since once you have access to the physical board, you can reverse
engineer the schematic.

Even on a multi-layer board? Well I could see GCHQ doing that, but a
repairer?

Component level SMD repair is pretty commonly done stuff...

For example, go have a look at Louis Rossmann or Jessa Jones (iPad
Rehab) on youtube, they routinely fix stuff that apple claim can't be
fixed. They have posted tons of detailed walk-throughs of many repairs.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Component level SMD repair is pretty commonly done stuff...

For example, go have a look at Louis Rossmann or Jessa Jones (iPad
Rehab) on youtube, they routinely fix stuff that apple claim can't be
fixed. They have posted tons of detailed walk-throughs of many repairs.

There's a board/component level repair tradeoff.

If it's a washing machine and the board is simple, it might only cost £50.
Not worth doing component level fault diagnosis when you could just swap it
out.

If it's a laptop and they soldered the CPU, the RAM and the SSD to the
motherboard, the board might be £2000 to replace. That's a very strong
motivation to go in at component level, especially if the fix is something
at the simpler end of things (dead charging chips and similar).


In both cases, if the manufacturer refuses to supply parts (that charging
chip is often custom, in the case of Apple) all you're left with is getting
one from scrap. And then you might find you can't pair it because they
fitted DRM, even though there was no actual reason to need to pair it in the
first place.

While certain brands are notorious for this, it's only a matter of time
before their competitors jump on the same bandwagon. Hence needing laws to
prevent this behaviour.

Theo

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

I had an interesting one with an after market starter motor for the old
car. Basically a modern Denso unit adapted to fit my car by making an
custom adaptor plate. Two companies do much the same - PowerLite and WOSP.
I had a PowerLite, and a small thrust washer broke inside the pinion drive
- allowing the pinion to move freely on its splines, and only engage when
it felt like it. PowerLite don't supply any spares, and the best they
could offer was an new unit at a slightly reduced price. WOSP - who are
slightly more expensive, carry a full range of spare parts. And a fitting
kit for the pinion, which includes this washer (it's a one off - not a
standard washer) cost a couple of quid.

But PowerLite, being cheaper for much the same thing, have the biggest
share of this market. And not supplying spares likely keeps down costs.

Which likely means the average customer wants the cheapest price, not the
availability of spares.

--
*Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10 Mar 2021 at 11:21:04 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

I had an interesting one with an after market starter motor for the old
car. Basically a modern Denso unit adapted to fit my car by making an
custom adaptor plate. Two companies do much the same - PowerLite and WOSP.
I had a PowerLite, and a small thrust washer broke inside the pinion drive
- allowing the pinion to move freely on its splines, and only engage when
it felt like it. PowerLite don't supply any spares, and the best they
could offer was an new unit at a slightly reduced price. WOSP - who are
slightly more expensive, carry a full range of spare parts. And a fitting
kit for the pinion, which includes this washer (it's a one off - not a
standard washer) cost a couple of quid.

But PowerLite, being cheaper for much the same thing, have the biggest
share of this market. And not supplying spares likely keeps down costs.

Which likely means the average customer wants the cheapest price, not the
availability of spares.

Or perhaps the average customer only finds this out too late?

--
Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Mar 2021 at 11:21:04 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

I had an interesting one with an after market starter motor for the old
car. Basically a modern Denso unit adapted to fit my car by making an
custom adaptor plate. Two companies do much the same - PowerLite and WOSP.
I had a PowerLite, and a small thrust washer broke inside the pinion drive
- allowing the pinion to move freely on its splines, and only engage when
it felt like it. PowerLite don't supply any spares, and the best they
could offer was an new unit at a slightly reduced price. WOSP - who are
slightly more expensive, carry a full range of spare parts. And a fitting
kit for the pinion, which includes this washer (it's a one off - not a
standard washer) cost a couple of quid.

But PowerLite, being cheaper for much the same thing, have the biggest
share of this market. And not supplying spares likely keeps down costs.

Which likely means the average customer wants the cheapest price, not the
availability of spares.

Or perhaps the average customer only finds this out too late?

In my case, yes. The PowerLite website suggests they have UK factories
making the things. Very impressive. But my guess is they are simply a
re-seller of something made elsewhere.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


It's not clear to me from skimming the Government's papers if they
propose to follow the EU Directive which IIRC only requires spare parts
and repair manuals to be made available to professional repairers. And
also allows parts to be bundled - e.g. w/m bearings only available with
a shiny new s/s drum.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 10/03/2021 12:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 11:49:34 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what
they see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P
to cover "administrative costs".


It's not clear to me from skimming the Government's papers if they
propose to follow the EU Directive which IIRC only requires spare parts
and repair manuals to be made available to professional repairers. And
also allows parts to be bundled - e.g. w/m bearings only available with
a shiny new s/s drum.

So TLR a difference that makes no difference ?


I doubt that.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

We tend to buy mainly Bosch appliances one of the reasons being the availability of spare parts. Their website has nice exploded diagrams of all their appliances with all the parts clearly listed and so far I have always been able to source any required part without restriction. The only thing you cannot get are the service manuals and I hope the right to repair will make them available, then again making them only available to €œtrained professionals€� is another way of cashing in by offering repair courses.

Some years back we owned a series of Nissan cars and they used to sell the official workshop manuals and I got one which was the size of a telephone book. It was OK for a lot of the standard jobs but you soon got into jobs that needed this or that service tool. Whereas a Haynes manual might recommend using a Castrol grease tin to drift in a bearing, no such chance with the official manual.

Richard

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 05:36:51 -0800, Tricky Dicky wrote:

We tend to buy mainly Bosch appliances one of the reasons being the
availability of spare parts. Their website has nice exploded diagrams of
all their appliances with all the parts clearly listed and so far I have
always been able to source any required part without restriction. The
only thing you cannot get are the service manuals and I hope the right
to repair will make them available, then again making them only
available to €œtrained professionals€� is another way of cashing in by
offering repair courses.

I agree. On the rare occasions that I haven't been able to work it out
for myself, or I want the quickest way, there are sometimes good YouTube
ionstructions - as long as you know what you are going for.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Tricky Dicky wrote

We tend to buy mainly Bosch appliances one of the reasons
being the availability of spare parts. Their website has nice
exploded diagrams of all their appliances with all the parts
clearly listed and so far I have always been able to source
any required part without restriction.

Problem is that particularly with their dishwasher, the bulk of
what needs to be replaced is the fancy integrated pump, heater
etc which costs more than a working full bosch dishwasher.

The only thing you cannot get are the service manuals
and I hope the right to repair will make them available,

Yeah, that would be handy. I only buy new
laptops that have full service manuals available.

then again making them only available to €œtrained professionals€�
is another way of cashing in by offering repair courses.

Some years back we owned a series of Nissan cars and
they used to sell the official workshop manuals and I got
one which was the size of a telephone book. It was OK
for a lot of the standard jobs but you soon got into jobs
that needed this or that service tool.

I did that with my VW Beetle and when I needed to replace
one of the front wheel bearings, asked the dealer who I had
got the new bearing from for a loan of the service tool that
the workshop manual said was needed. He said they didnt
bother with it and they just bashed it with a big hammer.
That worked fine. They were still doing full engine rebuilds
at that time when any car, not just VWs failed the emission
test, pre computers in cars.

Whereas a Haynes manual might recommend
using a Castrol grease tin to drift in a bearing,
no such chance with the official manual.

Forget what the Haynes manual said
about that with the Beetle wheel bearing.

"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

Tricky Dicky explained on 10/03/2021 :
Whereas a Haynes manual might recommend using a Castrol grease tin to drift
in a bearing, no such chance with the official manual.

Cars have become very much more complex, the Haynes manual for the past
two or three decades have not covered much of the car, or especially
it's electrical systems.

"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
Tricky Dicky explained on 10/03/2021 :
Whereas a Haynes manual might recommend using a Castrol grease tin to
drift in a bearing, no such chance with the official manual.

Cars have become very much more complex,

But require much less routine maintenance and
usually tell you with an error code what the car
has decided has failed sensor wise etc.

the Haynes manual for the past two or three decades have not covered much
of the car, or especially it's electrical systems.

But doesn't really need to most of the time now.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Tricky Dicky explained on 10/03/2021 :
Whereas a Haynes manual might recommend using a Castrol grease tin to drift
in a bearing, no such chance with the official manual.

Cars have become very much more complex, the Haynes manual for the past
two or three decades have not covered much of the car, or especially
it's electrical systems.

First workshop manual I bought was in the 60s. A genuine factory one for
an MG. it was head and shoulders above the Haynes one. And nothing changed
since then.

--
*To be intoxicated is to feel sophisticated, but not be able to say it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/03/2021 08:49, Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


The availability of spare parts will help although I think it is only
seven years after production has stopped.

What I would like is a manual for my washing machine (pdf). Also if it
stops unexpectedly it should tell me why, i.e. what it is waiting for.

My Samsung TV is now getting on for 10 years old. I wonder how much
longer it will last. A new one would be less that half the price I
paid. I would think that a repair would be uneconomic if I had to pay
for labour. My fridge freezer compressor failed. Unfortunately a DIY
replacement is not possible because of the gas. I did find someone who
could repair it, but the cost was about 2/3rds of what I had paid for it
13 years earlier so I decided jut to buy a new one.


--
Michael Chare

Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


I think it is mainly aimed at white goods. In real terms most parts seem to
be available if you do a search and many are common across several makes of
while goods. Most people just dont know what to do when it comes to fixing
things.

Replacing an SMD component would be beyond most people. Even service people
swap out boards.

I fix things but only if the hassle isnt too much.

On 11/03/2021 10:29, Radio Man wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


I think it is mainly aimed at white goods.

Some here might care that servers and welders are AIUI first out of the
blocks!


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Radio Man submitted this idea :
Replacing an SMD component would be beyond most people. Even service people
swap out boards.

I fix things but only if the hassle isnt too much.

I'm a bit obsessive about making things work, or work for me, better
than they were originally designed to do.

Leaving that aside, if something fails, I try to ensure it will not
fail again with the same fault. Our washing / drier must be almost 10
years old now, it first failed at just over 12 months old and outside
its warranty. It's motherboard had gone faulty. A very new design,
there was no information I could find on a possible repair, the only
option was repair the m/b or replace it. I tracked it down to a failed
electrolytic, mounted a hot resistor and a heatsink, the cap had begun
to swell and was a low temperature rating. I replaced it for 10p with a
higher temperature rated version and it has been fine since - I also
posted the fix on the whitegoods site, for the benefit of others with
the same issue. As a result I received lots of thanks from others who
had suffered the same failure.

Next the drier failed. A simple bi-metal overheat trip, which once trip
could not (as designed) be reset. The manufacturers fix was a complete
replacement heater/condenser section. A tiny hole drilled in the case
of the trip, allowed that to be reset with a watch makers screwdriver.

We have not used the drier for many years though, instead we line dry
using a fan and dehumidifier system, I set up in the utility.

On 11/03/2021 10:29, Radio Man wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


I think it is mainly aimed at white goods. In real terms most parts seem to
be available if you do a search and many are common across several makes of
while goods. Most people just dont know what to do when it comes to fixing
things.

Replacing an SMD component would be beyond most people. Even service people
swap out boards.

Basic SMD rework is really not that difficult, even with fairly basic
kit. I manage quite a number of jobs with a cheap hot air rework
station, and a TS100 iron with a fine tip. Plus some quik-chip bismuth
alloy low melting point solder. For magnification a large illuminated
anglepoise style lamp.

(for phone sized stuff, a decent binocular microscope would be pretty
much essential)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 11/03/2021 10:29, Radio Man wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


I think it is mainly aimed at white goods.

No. Everything.

In real terms most parts seem to
be available if you do a search and many are common across several makes of
while goods. Most people just dont know what to do when it comes to fixing
things.

You are expected to recycle to the component materials and buy again
new. Your phone/car/computer is expected to last the life of otherwise
consumables, the software updates, the security patches. You simply
throw it all away when it breaks.

If ye don't do that, then capitalism apparently fails, profits die, and
people lose jobs.
If ye run a non-authorised repair centre, "them" will close you down.
If you import a pattern part, "them" will close you down also.
If you go anywhere near infinging a patent, years after the last actual
commercial use, "them" will close you down.

There are many that can recycle, fix electronics to component level, and
collectively save themselves a fortune. Others may not be able to handle
SMD, doesn't mean a thing to the skilled - but prevented.


Hey, seems we are finished with Brexit, Vegans, BLM etc.

This is the march on the "right to self-repair".

The ethos of DIY folk.

Folks that are seen by "them" as socialist do-gooders illegally sharing
secrets, and must apparently be stopped.

--
Adrian C

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 11:05:28 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 11/03/2021 10:29, Radio Man wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


I think it is mainly aimed at white goods.
No. Everything.
In real terms most parts seem to
be available if you do a search and many are common across several makes of
while goods. Most people just dont know what to do when it comes to fixing
things.
You are expected to recycle to the component materials and buy again
new. Your phone/car/computer is expected to last the life of otherwise
consumables, the software updates, the security patches. You simply
throw it all away when it breaks.

That is your choice you aren't forced to do any of the above.
It just becomes easier and cheaper over time to buy new rather than repair.
It's also more practical to just replace or upgrade.

If ye don't do that, then capitalism apparently fails, profits die, and
people lose jobs.

Yes all those cars, buses, lorries, trains shame people didn't stick to their penny farthing bikes isn't it.


If ye run a non-authorised repair centre, "them" will close you down.

Who will ? They won't unless you claim to be authorised.

There's plenty of phone shops that say they can fix your computer PC or Mac.
They haven't been closed down.



If you import a pattern part, "them" will close you down also.

No.

If you go anywhere near infinging a patent, years after the last actual
commercial use, "them" will close you down.

Well yes infinging a patent is I believe against the law.


There are many that can recycle, fix electronics to component level, and
collectively save themselves a fortune. Others may not be able to handle
SMD, doesn't mean a thing to the skilled - but prevented.

Not prevented at all.
You can buy an SMD soldering stations with microscope we have a couple here.



Hey, seems we are finished with Brexit, Vegans, BLM etc.

How about meghan ;-)


This is the march on the "right to self-repair".

People mostly have that right.



The ethos of DIY folk.

There comes a time when it just isn't possible or practical.

Folks that are seen by "them" as socialist do-gooders illegally sharing
secrets, and must apparently be stopped.

--
Adrian C

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 11:05:28 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 11/03/2021 10:29, Radio Man wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's
done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what
they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".


I think it is mainly aimed at white goods.
No. Everything.
In real terms most parts seem to
be available if you do a search and many are common across several
makes of
while goods. Most people just dont know what to do when it comes to
fixing
things.
You are expected to recycle to the component materials and buy again
new. Your phone/car/computer is expected to last the life of otherwise
consumables, the software updates, the security patches. You simply
throw it all away when it breaks.

That is your choice you aren't forced to do any of the above.
It just becomes easier and cheaper over time to buy new rather than
repair.
It's also more practical to just replace or upgrade.

If ye don't do that, then capitalism apparently fails, profits die, and
people lose jobs.

Yes all those cars, buses, lorries, trains shame people didn't stick to
their penny farthing bikes isn't it.


If ye run a non-authorised repair centre, "them" will close you down.

Who will ? They won't unless you claim to be authorised.

There's plenty of phone shops that say they can fix your computer PC or
Mac.
They haven't been closed down.



If you import a pattern part, "them" will close you down also.

No.

If you go anywhere near infinging a patent, years after the last actual
commercial use, "them" will close you down.

Well yes infinging a patent is I believe against the law.


There are many that can recycle, fix electronics to component level, and
collectively save themselves a fortune. Others may not be able to handle
SMD, doesn't mean a thing to the skilled - but prevented.

Not prevented at all.
You can buy an SMD soldering stations with microscope we have a couple
here.



Hey, seems we are finished with Brexit, Vegans, BLM etc.

How about meghan ;-)


This is the march on the "right to self-repair".

People mostly have that right.



The ethos of DIY folk.

There comes a time when it just isn't possible or practical.

Thats very arguable indeed with cars particularly. A number
of us helped a mate move what was just a pile of rusting
metal to a mates place. It was amazing what he turned
that into vintage car wise. Forget the make, model, year.

Folks that are seen by "them" as socialist do-gooders illegally sharing
secrets, and must apparently be stopped.

On 10/03/2021 10:36, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:49:51 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

Will this make any practical difference? If an SMD integrated circuit
goes wrong in a TV, will making the SMD itself available make the TV
"more repairable"? How much will it cost? How much would the complete
circuit board with SMD already fitted cost? Isn't the latter what's done
at present? It seems to me the manufacturers will just charge what they
see fit for the replacement part, no doubt with an exorbitant P&P to
cover "administrative costs".

This is an EU-led initiative.

It's a movement that has been driven mainly from the US - arguments have
been rumbling there for many years.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/