The very old non-condensing tumble dryer that I haven't got-round
(bothered) fixing this time round is currently taking up space that
could contain a desktop or under counter freezer (it's on a shelf over
the WM) and I'm both torn to go 'under counter size over 'counter top'
for better VFM (capacity and energy consumption for capacity) and as
long as the top section is just a flap rather than a draw, the height
shouldn't be an issue (especially for me as I'm both 6'2" tall and do
all the cooking ...). ;-)

The big question if I go under counter size is is the 'Frost free' or
'Self defrosting' (assuming they are the same?) ... worth having?

I can't say manually defrosting the very old Zanussi under-counter
freezer has ever really been a big issue and it doesn't even get done
very often (but probably less frequently than it really should for
good efficiency).

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Cold temperature working could be relevant, as could the fast freeze
feature (when doing a big frozen shop).

So, what experiences of any of the above do the panel have please?

Cheers, T i m

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned. Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers. Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model, about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the time I stupidly left the door open overnight, it's never given me a moment's bother. Then, I was obliged to empty and unplug it while it completely defrosted and the temperature control mechanism reset itself. (It's one way to get to know the neighbours. "Er, hello. I live at number 94. I don't suppose you have room in your freezer for 5 litres of tomato soup and a couple of steak pies overnight, by any chance?")

If I use the fast-freeze button, I set an alarm on my phone to remind me to turn it off at the appropriate time because the green light which is supposed to remind me that fast-freeze is on is almost invisible in daylight and dim as a Toch H lamp in the dark. I only use fast-freeze when putting in a big batch of fresh stuff to freeze from scratch. Already-frozen items come home from the shops in a cool bag or box and get put straight in the freezer drawers without any thawing.

I've never done a serious analysis of what it's costing to run but in all honesty, I don't think the costs outweigh the convenience of having an efficient piece of kit which pretty much looks after itself.



Cold temperature working could be relevant, as could the fast freeze
feature (when doing a big frozen shop).

Currently, due to shortage of kitchen space, my freezer is living in the conservatory where the temperature has been known to drop as low as 5C on winter nights and rise into the high 30s and beyond on summer days. According to the user handbook, its lowest recommended environmental temperature for optimal performance is 10C. With luck, the space problem will be resolved in the next few months and the freezer can come into the more moderate climate of the kitchen before any damage is done. I think the only models currently sold as suitable for use in sheds, garages or other cold environments are made by Beko.

HTH

Something I should have included above is mention of the only day-to-day maintenance problem I ever encountered with a self-defrosting appliance was when I noticed puddles of water forming in the bottom of my old Hotpoint fridge-freezer.

Some DiY investigation revealed that the little drain hose and drip tray at the rear had become clogged up with dust, grease and the odd dead spider. The appliance was over 30 years old at this point and owed us nothing but two or three times a year, we pulled the thing out of the awkward corner it occupied, cleaned out the drip tray and reamed out the little hose with a pipe cleaner. It continued to work well for a further 3 or 4 years until we pensioned it off at the time of a house move.

On 10 Mar 2021 at 21:55:40 GMT, "Scribbles"
wrote:

Something I should have included above is mention of the only day-to-day
maintenance problem I ever encountered with a self-defrosting appliance was
when I noticed puddles of water forming in the bottom of my old Hotpoint
fridge-freezer.

Some DiY investigation revealed that the little drain hose and drip tray at
the rear had become clogged up with dust, grease and the odd dead spider. The
appliance was over 30 years old at this point and owed us nothing but two or
three times a year, we pulled the thing out of the awkward corner it
occupied, cleaned out the drip tray and reamed out the little hose with a
pipe cleaner. It continued to work well for a further 3 or 4 years until we
pensioned it off at the time of a house move.

The advantage of having the top of the hose accessible inside the fridge or
freezer, as it is in some models, is that it can be cleaned from inside with
the machine in situ, and you really don't have to know what the inside of the
evaporation tray looks like.

--
Roger Hayter

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 13:43:43 -0800 (PST), Scribbles
wrote:


So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

snip

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

Ok.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

As long as I can time running the freezer down to finding the time to
do the defrosting, I quite enjoy it. Armed with a hot air gun, some
suitably sized containers and a wooden spatula I can do it quite
quickly and be back up and running in no time (given what was left in
the freezer would stay pretty frozen in our coolbox with the aid of
some additional frozen cooler blocks, get the freezer back down to
temp pretty quickly.).

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

Understood.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model, about 8 years old and A-rated.

Ok, the sort of thing I would be going for I think.

Apart from the time I stupidly left the door open overnight, it's never given me a moment's bother.

I think conventional fixed-temperature freezers are pretty simple /
reliable in general.

Then, I was obliged to empty and unplug it while it completely defrosted and the temperature control mechanism reset itself.

Oh?

(It's one way to get to know the neighbours. "Er, hello. I live at number 94. I don't suppose you have room in your freezer for 5 litres of tomato soup and a couple of steak pies overnight, by any chance?")

When I over ordered the frozen stuff when daughter went shopping for
us the other day, I did exactly the same thing with the guy next door.
Luckily he had a 'spare' desktop freezer he leant me (like you do).
;-)

If I use the fast-freeze button, I set an alarm on my phone to remind me to turn it off at the appropriate time because the green light which is supposed to remind me that fast-freeze is on is almost invisible in daylight and dim as a Toch H lamp in the dark.

Again, same here on our old Zanussi. Funnily, I left the freezer door
very slightly ajar for one of the very few times over the many years
we have had it the other day (a multimeter lead got caught in it by
accident) so I put it on boost just to catch up ... and only
remembered it the next day when going to use it again.

I only use fast-freeze when putting in a big batch of fresh stuff to freeze from scratch. Already-frozen items come home from the shops in a cool bag or box and get put straight in the freezer drawers without any thawing.

Check.

I've never done a serious analysis of what it's costing to run but in all honesty, I don't think the costs outweigh the convenience of having an efficient piece of kit which pretty much looks after itself.

There seems to be a bigger price discrepancy between what I assume to
be more efficient freezers (thicker insulation, more sealed draws,
more efficient compressor etc) and those that happen to also be
auto-defrost.

Cold temperature working could be relevant, as could the fast freeze
feature (when doing a big frozen shop).

Currently, due to shortage of kitchen space, my freezer is living in the conservatory where the temperature has been known to drop as low as 5C on winter nights

We may also put one out in the lean-to (we don't have a fancy
conservatory g) in the future and hence why I thought it might be
worth considering now.

and rise into the high 30s and beyond on summer days. According to the user handbook, its lowest recommended environmental temperature for optimal performance is 10C.

Yeah, I've seen similar figures mentioned.

With luck, the space problem will be resolved in the next few months and the freezer can come into the more moderate climate of the kitchen before any damage is done.

Good luck with that then.

I think the only models currently sold as suitable for use in sheds, garages or other cold environments are made by Beko.

I think I've seen a few but they could have all be BeKo models. ;-)

Talking of Beko ... I wonder how important it is to have a freezer
with a non-(inflammable)plastic back on it?

I believe our tumble dryer was 'good' in that being externally
vented the heater filaments only ever saw fresh air so less chance of
getting fluff back on it and them catching fire. Not so good for the
running costs and the environment though (and partly why we haven't
bothered repairing it this time).

Thanks for the feedback. I can carry on looking and including self
defrosting models. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 13:55:40 -0800 (PST), Scribbles
wrote:

Something I should have included above is mention of the only day-to-day maintenance problem I ever encountered with a self-defrosting appliance was when I noticed puddles of water forming in the bottom of my old Hotpoint fridge-freezer.

Some DiY investigation revealed that the little drain hose and drip tray at the rear had become clogged up with dust, grease and the odd dead spider. The appliance was over 30 years old at this point and owed us nothing but two or three times a year, we pulled the thing out of the awkward corner it occupied, cleaned out the drip tray and reamed out the little hose with a pipe cleaner. It continued to work well for a further 3 or 4 years until we pensioned it off at the time of a house move.

Thanks for follow up. I am familiar with such as we have one on our
Zanussi fridge and that has needed a pipe-cleaner (I got some extra
long ones especially) a few times to clear it out.

Cheers, T i m

"Scribbles" wrote in message
...

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer frost free.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe
and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

Me too, second only to washing clothes etc by hand down the river.

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model,

Mine are the biggest Fisher and Paykel frost free pigeon pair.

Vastly more convenient than the under counter manual
defrost pair of bar fridge sized freezers with fixed shelves.
The freezer has massive roll out drawers and for some
reason you dont get any ice buildup on the contents
at all which is the other massive bonus with frost free.

about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the
time I stupidly left the door open overnight,

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

it's never given me a moment's bother. Then, I was obliged
to empty and unplug it while it completely defrosted and
the temperature control mechanism reset itself. (It's one
way to get to know the neighbours. "Er, hello. I live at
number 94. I don't suppose you have room in your freezer
for 5 litres of tomato soup and a couple of steak pies
overnight, by any chance?")

If I use the fast-freeze button, I set an alarm on my phone
to remind me to turn it off at the appropriate time because
the green light which is supposed to remind me that fast-freeze
is on is almost invisible in daylight and dim as a Toch H lamp in
the dark. I only use fast-freeze when putting in a big batch of
fresh stuff to freeze from scratch. Already-frozen items come
home from the shops in a cool bag or box and get put straight
in the freezer drawers without any thawing.

I've never done a serious analysis of what it's costing to run but
in all honesty, I don't think the costs outweigh the convenience of
having an efficient piece of kit which pretty much looks after itself.

Cold temperature working could be relevant, as could
the fast freeze feature (when doing a big frozen shop).

Currently, due to shortage of kitchen space, my freezer
is living in the conservatory where the temperature has
been known to drop as low as 5C on winter nights and
rise into the high 30s and beyond on summer days.
According to the user handbook, its lowest recommended
environmental temperature for optimal performance is 10C.
With luck, the space problem will be resolved in the next few
months and the freezer can come into the more moderate
climate of the kitchen before any damage is done. I think
the only models currently sold as suitable for use in sheds,
garages or other cold environments are made by Beko.

HTH

On 10 Mar 2021 at 21:43:43 GMT, "Scribbles"
wrote:


So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned. Most people have a
particular domestic task they absolutely loathe and detest; for me, that task
is defrosting fridges and freezers. Put simply, life's too short for all that
faff and puddles of water.


I really don't see why. The only time I've needed to defrost my (Beko) freezer
in 10 years was when I left the door open accidentally. It's not exactly hard
work, leaving a bowl in the bottom of the freezer, with a towel underneath.
And it helped with my poor food-rotation management ;-)

On energy, it'd be useful if you can keep it somewhere cool. Mine's in a
cellar, so it does save the cost of having to cool it that extra 10-15C.
Although you do lose the convenience of easy access of course. I chose a Beko
for the reason it could cope with low temperatures.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"Scribbles" wrote in message
...

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer frost free.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe
and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

Me too, second only to washing clothes etc by hand down the river.

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model,

Mine are the biggest Fisher and Paykel frost free pigeon pair.

Vastly more convenient than the under counter manual
defrost pair of bar fridge sized freezers with fixed shelves.
The freezer has massive roll out drawers and for some
reason you dont get any ice buildup on the contents
at all which is the other massive bonus with frost free.

Ah, I didn't know about the ice building up on food. That does happen for some
reason on bread in particular in my (non-FF freezer) - does a frost free stop
that happening?

about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the
time I stupidly left the door open overnight,

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).

--
Cheers, Rob

"RJH" wrote in message
...
On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"Scribbles" wrote in message
...

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer frost free.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe
and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

Me too, second only to washing clothes etc by hand down the river.

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model,

Mine are the biggest Fisher and Paykel frost free pigeon pair.

Vastly more convenient than the under counter manual
defrost pair of bar fridge sized freezers with fixed shelves.
The freezer has massive roll out drawers and for some
reason you dont get any ice buildup on the contents
at all which is the other massive bonus with frost free.

Ah, I didn't know about the ice building up on food. That does happen for
some reason on bread in particular in my (non-FF freezer)

I get it on meat too which I have a lot more of than bread in there.

- does a frost free stop that happening?

Yep. Still not completely clear to me why that doesnt happen with
a frost free but certainly explains where the name comes from.

about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the
time I stupidly left the door open overnight,

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).

I couldnt find one that integrates well with my other sensors,
particularly the room temp sensors in all the Hue movement
sensors but havent checked that for a while. Must check again.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:06:09 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip

The only time I've needed to defrost my (Beko) freezer
in 10 years was when I left the door open accidentally.

Yeah, I noticed a bit of buildup after leave our freezer door open a
crack overnight recently.

It's not exactly hard
work, leaving a bowl in the bottom of the freezer, with a towel underneath.

Our has a little plastic chute you clip in the bottom edge that allows
you to put a shallow container on the floor in front of the freezer
and it drains into that. It's easy to then sponge the water out of the
tray as needed. As you say, most of the water can be caught in a bowl
and I generally accelerate the defrosting process using a hot air gun
(from a safe distance from the freezer etc).You wouldn't need to do
that if you had additional freezer capacity or good temporary storage
(we use a camping cooler box that can just about freeze things if it's
in a cold space and put the stuff in freezer bags and wrap with
newspapers / towels).

And it helped with my poor food-rotation management ;-)

This was something I hoped might improve if we had a bit more freezer
space. I think there can be a critical volume for 'n' people and
whilst that has been 'ok' for 30 years, the Covid thing has meant us
not wanting daughter doing our shopping very frequently and so we have
been buying more less frequently.

On energy, it'd be useful if you can keep it somewhere cool. Mine's in a
cellar, so it does save the cost of having to cool it that extra 10-15C.

I would love as cellar (although the water table is pretty high here
so it would have to be well tanked).

Although you do lose the convenience of easy access of course.

We have the fridge and freezer under the counter opposite the sink
(galley kitchen). Didn't they call it the 'Magic triangle'? All very
efficient / convenient for most food / hot beverage production. I did
think of moving the fridge out of the kitchen and to where the
(defunked) tumble dryer is, next door in the lobby ... but I'm not
sure that even those few paces will be tolerable, after a fridge has
been under counter for 40 years, even though it might be a bit more
convenient being higher? I could try it I guess and I can always put
it back if it doesn't 'work'.

I chose a Beko
for the reason it could cope with low temperatures.

Has there always been the option to get 'cold working' freezers as if
not, how have all the 'std' freezers coped that are out in peoples
(unheated) garages and other outbuildings (I've even seen them just
outside under a simple plastic roof)?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Does your Beko freezer have a metal or plastic back OOI Rob?

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 20:17:36 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



I couldn¢t find one that integrates well with my other sensors,
particularly the room temp sensors in all the Hue movement
sensors but havent checked that for a while. Must check again.

Yeah, do that and stop pestering people for a while, senile pest!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 09/03/2021 22:57, T i m wrote:
The very old non-condensing tumble dryer that I haven't got-round
(bothered) fixing this time round

It's not very kind to the environment to own a tumble drier, especially
a non-condensing one; where all the heat is generally piped outside.

Mine's a condensing one, which goes to heat the bedroom.


The big question if I go under counter size is is the 'Frost free' or
'Self defrosting' (assuming they are the same?) ... worth having?

A convention freezer is more efficient, and while it might frost up it
does so slowly, and continues to work after an inch of ice.

Any 'frost' in a frost free or self defrosting freezer tends to make it
stop working.

On 11/03/2021 09:10, RJH wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"Scribbles" wrote in message
...

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer frost free.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe
and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

Me too, second only to washing clothes etc by hand down the river.

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model,

Mine are the biggest Fisher and Paykel frost free pigeon pair.

Vastly more convenient than the under counter manual
defrost pair of bar fridge sized freezers with fixed shelves.
The freezer has massive roll out drawers and for some
reason you dont get any ice buildup on the contents
at all which is the other massive bonus with frost free.

Ah, I didn't know about the ice building up on food. That does happen for some
reason on bread in particular in my (non-FF freezer) - does a frost free stop
that happening?

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food. Chicken
is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a frost free
freezer.

about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the
time I stupidly left the door open overnight,

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).

Perhaps I ought to get one! And one for the fridge.

On 11/03/2021 12:00, Fredxx wrote:

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food. Chicken
is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a frost free
freezer.


Normal freezers dry food too. Use airtight containers to prevent it, or
don't leave the food in too long.

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 at 9:06:15 AM UTC, RJH wrote:




?....Put simply, life's too short for all that
faff and puddles of water.


(Snip)

I really don't see why. The only time I've needed to defrost my (Beko) freezer
in 10 years was when I left the door open accidentally. It's not exactly hard
work, leaving a bowl in the bottom of the freezer, with a towel underneath.
And it helped with my poor food-rotation management ;-)

Why? Because, like I said, I loathe defrosting and, in the days before I discovered frost-free appliances, would simply ignore the task until so much ice - several inches - had built up that the doors wouldn't close. A bowl in the fridge and towels, etc around and under it never succeeded in containing all the mel****er. (I realise this says more about me than about the fridge/freezers but let's not go there).

On energy, it'd be useful if you can keep it somewhere cool. Mine's in a cellar, so it does save the cost of having to cool it that extra 10-15C.

Agreed - which is why, as soon as I have the grant of probate (application made 13 months ago & still waiting) on my late husband's estate and, thus, access to the funds put aside for the purpose, the kitchen will be extended and there will be space for the freezer.

On 11/03/2021 12:05, Pancho wrote:
On 11/03/2021 12:00, Fredxx wrote:

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food.
Chicken is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a
frost free freezer.


Normal freezers dry food too. Use airtight containers to prevent it, or
don't leave the food in too long.

Normal freezers also present a good door seal to the environment, but
yes, an airtight container would reduce the drying out / burning of
frozen food.

On 11 Mar 2021 at 12:00:01 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 11/03/2021 09:10, RJH wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"Scribbles" wrote in message
...

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer frost free.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe
and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

Me too, second only to washing clothes etc by hand down the river.

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model,

Mine are the biggest Fisher and Paykel frost free pigeon pair.

Vastly more convenient than the under counter manual
defrost pair of bar fridge sized freezers with fixed shelves.
The freezer has massive roll out drawers and for some
reason you dont get any ice buildup on the contents
at all which is the other massive bonus with frost free.

Ah, I didn't know about the ice building up on food. That does happen for
some
reason on bread in particular in my (non-FF freezer) - does a frost free
stop
that happening?

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food. Chicken
is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a frost free
freezer.

Ah, interesting, thanks. It would help if I wrapped things up more
thoroughly.

about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the
time I stupidly left the door open overnight,

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).

Perhaps I ought to get one! And one for the fridge.

The one I've got is a clone of this:

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/hygiplas-f...ith-alarm/f314

I paid a lot less than that. I taped the wire for the sensor between the body
and door, and draped the sensor in the middle of the freezer. Not especially
elegant but seems to work.



--
Cheers, Rob

On 09/03/2021 22:57, T i m wrote:
The very old non-condensing tumble dryer that I haven't got-round
(bothered) fixing this time round is currently taking up space that
could contain a desktop or under counter freezer (it's on a shelf over
the WM) and I'm both torn to go 'under counter size over 'counter top'
for better VFM (capacity and energy consumption for capacity) and as
long as the top section is just a flap rather than a draw, the height
shouldn't be an issue (especially for me as I'm both 6'2" tall and do
all the cooking ...). ;-)

The big question if I go under counter size is is the 'Frost free' or
'Self defrosting' (assuming they are the same?) ... worth having?

I can't say manually defrosting the very old Zanussi under-counter
freezer has ever really been a big issue and it doesn't even get done
very often (but probably less frequently than it really should for
good efficiency).

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Cold temperature working could be relevant, as could the fast freeze
feature (when doing a big frozen shop).

So, what experiences of any of the above do the panel have please?

My Liebherr F/F has is frost-free for both the fridge and freezer. There
is a fan which takes air from the freezer compartment and passes it over
the evaporator, which removes water vapour in the air. There is no need
to manually defrost it. As for drying food, all freezers do this to some
extent, but I can't say the Liebherr is any worse in this respect. Ice
cubes left in the container in which they are made do not appear to
disappear over time if not used.

--

Jeff

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:10:26 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

I'm beginning to suspect that some of my freezer problems are a
result of the door being left open (see some posts from some months
back)


After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).


What did you get and is it reliable?

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

"RJH" wrote in message
...
After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an
alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).

Perhaps I ought to get one! And one for the fridge.

The one I've got is a clone of this:

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/hygiplas-f...ith-alarm/f314

I paid a lot less than that. I taped the wire for the sensor between the
body
and door, and draped the sensor in the middle of the freezer. Not
especially
elegant but seems to work.

Because of the difficulty of getting a wifi freezer thermometer to work
(getting cable from sensor inside to transmitter outside the Faraday cage of
the freezer, without affecting the door seal), we have a low-tech solution.

We have a couple of TPlink HS110 remote-control mains plugs which also
monitor energy usage. I found a routine that runs on a spare Raspberry Pi
which polls these plugs, producing a graph of usage over time. We've got
into the habit of checking that graph every day, looking for any
abnormalities in the graph; the normal usage is a steady cycle of m minutes
on and n minutes off, punctuated by less frequent gaps and higher peaks as
the freezers go through their defrost-and-refreeze frost-free cycle.

We set this up after one of our freezers in the garage stopped working.
Luckily I noticed after about 12 hours when I went to put something in
there, so we had a mass cook-up and refreeze of all the meat joints which
were slightly soft but still pretty cold. We lived on a diet of prawn toast
and other Chinese starters for a couple of days, because those were the only
things that couldn't be cooked and then re-frozen. I think the only thing my
wife had to throw away was a box of ice creams, so we got away lightly.

And before anyone says it, yes the freezer that broke *was* a Beko and *was*
rated to work in winter ambient temperature. It had just packed up - I
traced the wire right back to the sealed motor unit and there was power
getting to the motor, but still it was not turning, so failed motor winding
or failed thermostat within the motor/compressor housing. I couldn't find
any other wire going to a remote thermostat elsewhere inside the freezer.

Interestingly, the big Beko freezer that we have outside (replacement for
the one that failed) uses a lot less electricity than the smaller one that
we have indoors. I wonder if it's more efficient or just because the ambient
temperature is lower. We'll see how things change in the hot summer -
assuming we get one!

On 11/03/2021 12:11, RJH wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 12:00:01 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 11/03/2021 09:10, RJH wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"Scribbles" wrote in message
...

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer frost free.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe
and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

Me too, second only to washing clothes etc by hand down the river.

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model,

Mine are the biggest Fisher and Paykel frost free pigeon pair.

Vastly more convenient than the under counter manual
defrost pair of bar fridge sized freezers with fixed shelves.
The freezer has massive roll out drawers and for some
reason you dont get any ice buildup on the contents
at all which is the other massive bonus with frost free.

Ah, I didn't know about the ice building up on food. That does happen for
some
reason on bread in particular in my (non-FF freezer) - does a frost free
stop
that happening?

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food. Chicken
is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a frost free
freezer.

Ah, interesting, thanks. It would help if I wrapped things up more
thoroughly.

about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the
time I stupidly left the door open overnight,

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).

Perhaps I ought to get one! And one for the fridge.

The one I've got is a clone of this:

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/hygiplas-f...ith-alarm/f314

I paid a lot less than that. I taped the wire for the sensor between the body
and door, and draped the sensor in the middle of the freezer. Not especially
elegant but seems to work.

Thanks for the link. I will investigate. This would be for a fridge that
isn't mine, but one I seem to leave accidentally leave open on a regular
basis!

It probably doesn't help that mine has a semi-latched door with a
positive close mechanism, rather than just the normal passive magnetic
strip.

On 11 Mar 2021 at 12:46:46 GMT, "AnthonyL" AnthonyL wrote:

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:10:26 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

I'm beginning to suspect that some of my freezer problems are a
result of the door being left open (see some posts from some months
back)


After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).


What did you get and is it reliable?

Lidl, reference 270128. Seems reliable, but the menu isn't that intuitive and
takes a bit of stabbing to check the min/max temperatures of the past 24
hours, and programming the alarm (which IIRC only kicks in around 0C - I'd
rather it was say -10C). If I was buying again I'd look into that.
--
Cheers, Rob

On 11 Mar 2021 at 09:57:23 GMT, "T i m" wrote:

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:06:09 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip



We have the fridge and freezer under the counter opposite the sink
(galley kitchen). Didn't they call it the 'Magic triangle'? All very
efficient / convenient for most food / hot beverage production. I did
think of moving the fridge out of the kitchen and to where the
(defunked) tumble dryer is, next door in the lobby ... but I'm not
sure that even those few paces will be tolerable, after a fridge has
been under counter for 40 years, even though it might be a bit more
convenient being higher? I could try it I guess and I can always put
it back if it doesn't 'work'.

I don't actually have space for more than 2 appliances in my kitchen -
dishwasher and fridge. But I really like a small kitchen (3mx2.8m) - but then
there's only me most of the time, and I know many don't. Just easier to clean
and get things done.



I chose a Beko
for the reason it could cope with low temperatures.

Has there always been the option to get 'cold working' freezers as if
not, how have all the 'std' freezers coped that are out in peoples
(unheated) garages and other outbuildings (I've even seen them just
outside under a simple plastic roof)?

Don't know - maybe luck, operating just within range, or when the temperature
dips the compressor cuts out, but not catastrophically (to the
freezer/refridgerant or the food)?


p.s. Does your Beko freezer have a metal or plastic back OOI Rob?

If it is metal, it's not magnetic - looks to be plastic.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 11/03/2021 12:05, Pancho wrote:
On 11/03/2021 12:00, Fredxx wrote:

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food.
Chicken is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a
frost free freezer.


Normal freezers dry food too. Use airtight containers to prevent it, or
don't leave the food in too long.

I find that using a vacuum sealing device, food doesn't get freezer burn.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 09/03/2021 22:57, T i m wrote:
The very old non-condensing tumble dryer that I haven't got-round
(bothered) fixing this time round

It's not very kind to the environment to own a tumble drier, especially a
non-condensing one; where all the heat is generally piped outside.

Mine's a condensing one, which goes to heat the bedroom.


The big question if I go under counter size is is the 'Frost free' or
'Self defrosting' (assuming they are the same?) ... worth having?

A convention freezer is more efficient, and while it might frost up it
does so slowly, and continues to work after an inch of ice.

Any 'frost' in a frost free or self defrosting freezer tends to make it
stop working.

Thats bull**** with a frost free.

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
On 11/03/2021 12:05, Pancho wrote:
On 11/03/2021 12:00, Fredxx wrote:

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food. Chicken
is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a frost free
freezer.


Normal freezers dry food too. Use airtight containers to prevent it, or
don't leave the food in too long.

I find that using a vacuum sealing device, food doesn't get freezer burn.

Dont need anything like that with my frost free. I do put stuff like
steak cut to single meal size in a plastic bag before freezing but
thats so its easy to get one steak out for cooking while frozen,
I never defrost steaks before grilling them. I have occasionally
had one come out of its plastic bag and I havent noticed and
dont get freezer burn with those.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 11/03/2021 12:05, Pancho wrote:
On 11/03/2021 12:00, Fredxx wrote:

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents. That water
comes from somewhere, and it generally from outside or the food. Chicken
is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a frost free
freezer.


Normal freezers dry food too. Use airtight containers to prevent it, or
don't leave the food in too long.

Normal freezers also present a good door seal to the environment,

So does my frost free fridge and freezer. In fact its so good that
its much harder to open the door if you try to do that just after
you have opened and closed the door.

but yes, an airtight container would reduce the drying out / burning of
frozen food.

I dont get any of that in my frost free freezer.

I do in the manual defrost freezers.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 11/03/2021 09:10, RJH wrote:
On 11 Mar 2021 at 00:08:28 GMT, ""Rod Speed""
wrote:



"Scribbles" wrote in message
...

So is self defrosting one of those 'must have' features or just 'ok
when it works'?

The additional question of spending more on something that has a
better energy rating takes us into the unknown ... how long it might
last over the extra cost and any potential savings on running costs
and could be impacted by the whole 'self defrosting' thing. What
happens when that stops working ... is it then worse than a non
self-defrosting model?

Self-defrosting is a Must Have as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer frost free.

Most people have a particular domestic task they absolutely loathe
and detest; for me, that task is defrosting fridges and freezers.

Me too, second only to washing clothes etc by hand down the river.

Put simply, life's too short for all that faff and puddles of water.

My current freezer is an under the counter AEC model,

Mine are the biggest Fisher and Paykel frost free pigeon pair.

Vastly more convenient than the under counter manual
defrost pair of bar fridge sized freezers with fixed shelves.
The freezer has massive roll out drawers and for some
reason you dont get any ice buildup on the contents
at all which is the other massive bonus with frost free.

Ah, I didn't know about the ice building up on food. That does happen for
some
reason on bread in particular in my (non-FF freezer) - does a frost free
stop
that happening?

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents.

Bull****, mine doesnt.

That water comes from somewhere,

There is no water with a frost free, thats removed so there is no frost.

and it generally from outside or the food.

Chicken is one thing I also change texture after being frozen in a frost
free freezer.

All meat changes texture when frozen in any type of freezer.
Thats due to the frozen cells being damaged by the freezing.

And happens in spades with other stuff like lettuce and tomatoes.

about 8 years old and A-rated. Apart from the
time I stupidly left the door open overnight,

Not possible with my latest freezer, it beeps if you do that.

After my door open accident I bought a digital thermometer with an
alarm -
also make sure the freezer's operating within range (-18-22C).

Perhaps I ought to get one! And one for the fridge.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents.

Bull****, mine doesnt.

Yes, why should frost-free (periodic heating of the cooling element to melt
any ice that has formed on it) make freezer burn any more or less likely?
Isn't freezer burn dependent on how much (if any) moisture gets in from the
outside, and therefore on how good the door seal is? And on how often you
open the door, letting in fresh, moist air from the room.


One of our freezers uses about 50 W when the motor is running (and near
enough zero when it's not), but every few days there is a sudden burst when
about 700 W is used for a couple of minutes. I presume that's when
frost-free has kicked in to melt any ice on the cooling element. It's
amazing what you can tell from a smartplug that reports power consumption
every few seconds, to be logged and graphed by a suitable utility on a PC.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 07:25:08 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Don¢t need anything like that with my frost free.

Shove your frost free up your senile arse, just like your Philips Hue and
your Alexa, the only "girl" that talks to you, you subnormal trolling senile
pest!

--
Marland revealing the senile sociopath's pathology:
"You have mentioned Alexa in a couple of threads recently, it is not a real
woman you know even if it is the only thing with a female name that stays
around around while you talk it to it.
Poor sad git who has to resort to Usenet and electronic devices for any
interaction as all real people run a mile to get away from you boring them
to death."
MID:

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents.

Bull****, mine doesnt.

Yes, why should frost-free (periodic heating of the cooling element to
melt any ice that has formed on it)

Thats cyclic defrost, not frost free. Frost free passes external
air over the cold plates outside the freezer or fridge, and gets
any moisture in the air out of the air and pumps cold air into
the freezer or fridge. There is no cold plate or coil inside the
fridge or freezer.

make freezer burn any more or less likely?

In fact it makes it impossible because there is no cold plate
or coil inside the freezer. Thats what produces freezer burn,
the surface moisture on the food subliming from the food
surface to the cold plate or coil.

Isn't freezer burn dependent on how much (if any) moisture gets in from
the outside,

No, thats frost, not freezer burn.

and therefore on how good the door seal is? And on how often you open the
door, letting in fresh, moist air from the room.

One of our freezers uses about 50 W when the motor is running (and near
enough zero when it's not), but every few days there is a sudden burst
when about 700 W is used for a couple of minutes. I presume that's when
frost-free has kicked in to melt any ice on the cooling element.

Thats actually the cyclic defrost.

It's amazing what you can tell from a smartplug that reports power
consumption every few seconds, to be logged and graphed by a suitable
utility on a PC.

Yeah, very useful tool now and dirt cheap too.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 08:41:32 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH more of the senile asshole's troll****


--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
his particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 13:58:31 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip

I don't actually have space for more than 2 appliances in my kitchen -
dishwasher and fridge. But I really like a small kitchen (3mx2.8m) - but then
there's only me most of the time, and I know many don't.

My mate has a kitchen about the same size as our ground floor and I
think it's pointless. It doesn't bother them as they have a
housekeeper that does most the cooking. ;-)

Just easier to clean
and get things done.

Yup. When helping him with network stuff round the house I've walked
miles and found it all tiring. Again, they don't actually keep it
clean themselves ...

I chose a Beko
for the reason it could cope with low temperatures.

Has there always been the option to get 'cold working' freezers as if
not, how have all the 'std' freezers coped that are out in peoples
(unheated) garages and other outbuildings (I've even seen them just
outside under a simple plastic roof)?

Don't know - maybe luck, operating just within range, or when the temperature
dips the compressor cuts out, but not catastrophically (to the
freezer/refridgerant or the food)?

Yeah, you maybe right. I was just wondering if it was just marketing?


p.s. Does your Beko freezer have a metal or plastic back OOI Rob?

If it is metal, it's not magnetic - looks to be plastic.

Could be ally but if it looks plastic it probably is (and thanks for
looking). I picked up a Which think that referenced those fridges /
freezers that had plastic backs and marked them down for their
additional fire risk (over those with metal backs, however unlikely
the overall risk etc).

May I ask what model your Beko is Rob (when you go down their next
etc).

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 04:05:51 -0800 (PST), Scribbles
wrote:

snip

Why? Because, like I said, I loathe defrosting and, in the days before I discovered frost-free appliances, would simply ignore the task until so much ice - several inches - had built up that the doors wouldn't close.

'Needs must'. ;-)

A bowl in the fridge and towels, etc around and under it never succeeded in containing all the mel****er. (I realise this says more about me than about the fridge/freezers but let's not go there).

Not necessarily. As mentioned elsewhere our old Zanussi under counter
freezer has a little plastic guide about the size of a playing card
that clips into a slot in the lower front edge and the design of the
innards of the freezer are such that any melt-water that escapes any
containers and runs out the bottom is guided to the middle, out over
the edge and rather than being drawn underneath by capillary action,
is drawn onto said 'chute' and then can be guided into a suitable
container, like a large dinner tray or shallow baking tray.

This allows you to simply sponge it out and into a bucket etc ... no
need for towels or wet floors. With aid of a hot air gun the whole
thing takes about 30 minutes, even when it's quite bad (if you heat
the right bits the ice tends to fall off in large chunks that can be
lifted away, rather than melting etc).

I wonder how many people have freezers with such a feature but have
'lost' their chute, were never given it (if the appliance was
installed for them) or still have it but simply don't know what it's
for?

snip

Cheers, T im

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 12:44:28 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

snip

So, what experiences of any of the above do the panel have please?

My Liebherr F/F has is frost-free for both the fridge and freezer.

The Liebherr seem to have the higher(est) energy ratings (good) and
look like they have substantial levels of insulation and other thermal
designs?

https://tinyurl.com/ypwz5bxs

There
is a fan which takes air from the freezer compartment and passes it over
the evaporator, which removes water vapour in the air. There is no need
to manually defrost it. As for drying food, all freezers do this to some
extent, but I can't say the Liebherr is any worse in this respect.

Ok. I guess that may be a function of how the foods are packaged? eg,
some things like burgers come in simple cardboard boxes with flaps at
the ends and aren't airtight?

Ice
cubes left in the container in which they are made do not appear to
disappear over time if not used.

;-)

The Liebherr offerings seem to have some of the lowest running costs
(which are generally relatively low, compared with WM or DW etc) but
are often also some of the most expensive so would need to be in use
for some time before you broke even.

https://www.sust-it.net/running-cost...appliances.php
(that's a bit old but ...)

It's not even that they would be the sort of thing that would have
their energy 'rationed', if it ever came to that. ;-)

https://www.sust-it.net/energy-savin...unter-freezers

Cheers, T i m

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

A consequence of frost free is it dries its food contents.

Bull****, mine doesnt.

Yes, why should frost-free (periodic heating of the cooling element to
melt any ice that has formed on it)

Thats cyclic defrost, not frost free. Frost free passes external
air over the cold plates outside the freezer or fridge, and gets
any moisture in the air out of the air and pumps cold air into
the freezer or fridge. There is no cold plate or coil inside the
fridge or freezer.

make freezer burn any more or less likely?

In fact it makes it impossible because there is no cold plate
or coil inside the freezer. Thats what produces freezer burn,
the surface moisture on the food subliming from the food
surface to the cold plate or coil.

On further thought, dangerous business I know, without
reading replys yet, the problem with non frost free freezers
is that all the air that enters the freezer when you open
the door to add or remove food has moisture in it and
some of that ends up on the food as frost.

With a frost free freezer, once you close the door,
the freezer will remove that air with moisture in
it by moving more moisture free air thru the
freezer, and so it wont end up as frost on the food.

Thats why a frost free freezer doesnt end up with frosty food.

Isn't freezer burn dependent on how much (if any) moisture gets in from
the outside,

No, thats frost, not freezer burn.

and therefore on how good the door seal is? And on how often you open the
door, letting in fresh, moist air from the room.

One of our freezers uses about 50 W when the motor is running (and near
enough zero when it's not), but every few days there is a sudden burst
when about 700 W is used for a couple of minutes. I presume that's when
frost-free has kicked in to melt any ice on the cooling element.

Thats actually the cyclic defrost.

It's amazing what you can tell from a smartplug that reports power
consumption every few seconds, to be logged and graphed by a suitable
utility on a PC.

Yeah, very useful tool now and dirt cheap too.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 12:44:28 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

snip

So, what experiences of any of the above do the panel have please?

My Liebherr F/F has is frost-free for both the fridge and freezer.

The Liebherr seem to have the higher(est) energy ratings (good) and
look like they have substantial levels of insulation and other thermal
designs?

https://tinyurl.com/ypwz5bxs

There
is a fan which takes air from the freezer compartment and passes it over
the evaporator, which removes water vapour in the air. There is no need
to manually defrost it. As for drying food, all freezers do this to some
extent, but I can't say the Liebherr is any worse in this respect.

Ok. I guess that may be a function of how the foods are packaged? eg,
some things like burgers come in simple cardboard boxes with flaps at
the ends and aren't airtight?

My frost free doesn't dry stuff like that.

Ice
cubes left in the container in which they are made do not appear to
disappear over time if not used.

;-)

The Liebherr offerings seem to have some of the lowest running costs
(which are generally relatively low, compared with WM or DW etc) but
are often also some of the most expensive so would need to be in use
for some time before you broke even.

https://www.sust-it.net/running-cost...appliances.php
(that's a bit old but ...)

It's not even that they would be the sort of thing that would have
their energy 'rationed', if it ever came to that. ;-)

https://www.sust-it.net/energy-savin...unter-freezers

On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 01:16:55 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

01:16??? And it's trolling time for you ALREADY, you abnormal trolling
senile pig from Oz? LMAO

--
The Natural Philosopher about senile Rodent:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID:

On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 01:57:21 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


My frost free doesn't dry stuff like that.

Of COURSE not, auto-contradicting sleepless senile asshole!

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: