On 04/03/2021 11:48, Tim Streater wrote:
On 04 Mar 2021 at 09:54:20 GMT, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:41:01 +0000, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 04/03/2021 00:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol - coming
here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it the usual
press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some time, and is
known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last
forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?


I'm not a chemist, but as far as I know, Ethanol doesn't attack solder.
However, Acetic Acid (Ethanoic Acid - oxydised Ethanol - vinegar) does
react with Lead and maybe there's some of that present.

The reaction product is Lead Acetate which used to be called 'Sugar of
Lead' because of its sweet taste, and maybe that explains the sweet
smell referred to by Brian Gaff later.

[Lead used to be hung in beer which has gone off to remove the vinegar
and replace it with Sugar of Lead. This is no longer done. Health and
safety gone mad, I say.]

The Romans used 'sugar of lead' to sweeten their wines. Said to be the
underlying cause of the fall of the Roman Empire as they all slowly
went mad and lost their powers of reason.

I always thought the smell of the exhaust of high-performance engines
such as in sports and racing cars at hill climb meetings etc was due
to the use of 'Castrol' somewhere in the fuel mix (whatever Castrol
was), but I'm probably wrong.

Castrol-R, wasn't it? I can't reemeber whether it was a fuel additive or a
type of oil.

type of oil


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 04/03/2021 11:29, Tim+ wrote:
I was under the impression that all cars running on unleaded were burning
10% ethanol. Or are you talking about the difference between diesel and
petrol? I doubt there are any ethanol fuelled cars outside of a race track
or drag strip.

Those run on *methanol*

Tim


Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Can you explain though why there is a different smell to the exhaust on
Ethanol powered cars. Its like its sweet and almost sugary on the tip of
ones tongue, or is this just me and my peculiar sense organs!

Brian






--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 04/03/2021 09:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it
the usual press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some
time, and is known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which
don't last forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific
was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?

I can remember when unleaded petrol was being phased in, and some
cockwombling fire chief scored weeks of publicity saying it was a bad
thing as it was more flammable that real petrol.

Which suggests (as always) the 80:20 law still applies, and 80% of
reportage is utter ********.

Now if he said it was more carcinogenic he would have been right, from
the increased levels of benzene and other aromatic compounds.

Thought alcohol is in general rather clean burning? Are you saying it is
worse than petrol?

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol - coming
here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it the usual
press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some time, and is
known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last
forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?

There is an E10 compatibility checker:
https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol

Says E10 petrol is cleared for use in all models with petrol engines
from 1st January 2000 (Nissan).

BL said none of their vehicles pre 1992 (or whatever) could be run on
unleaded without modification or the use of an additive. Which was
nonsense. But did apply to some of their old engine designs, like the
Mini. So I'd not take what a maker says as gospel. They have no legal
responsibility for 20 year old cars, but a vested interest in selling new
ones.

Lost in the mists of time but, yes their older engines relied on the
lead content for valve lubrication. Was a problem converting old Land
Rovers to autogas. There was a drip feed system to insert lubricant into
the inlet manifold. Can't remember the name. Came from Holland.
--
bert

In article , Scott
writes
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:12:27 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol - coming
here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it the usual
press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some time, and is
known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last
forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?

There is an E10 compatibility checker:
https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol

Says E10 petrol is cleared for use in all models with petrol engines
from 1st January 2000 (Nissan).

BL said none of their vehicles pre 1992 (or whatever) could be run on
unleaded without modification or the use of an additive. Which was
nonsense. But did apply to some of their old engine designs, like the
Mini. So I'd not take what a maker says as gospel. They have no legal
responsibility for 20 year old cars, but a vested interest in selling new
ones.

Wasn't it the case that the ones with the Honda engines were okay?
Yes
--
bert

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 04/03/2021 09:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it
the usual press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some
time, and is known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which
don't last forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific
was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?

I can remember when unleaded petrol was being phased in, and some
cockwombling fire chief scored weeks of publicity saying it was a bad
thing as it was more flammable that real petrol.

Which suggests (as always) the 80:20 law still applies, and 80% of
reportage is utter ********.

Now if he said it was more carcinogenic he would have been right, from
the increased levels of benzene and other aromatic compounds.

Thought alcohol is in general rather clean burning? Are you saying it is
worse than petrol?

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

https://morningconsult.com/2015/04/2...s-in-gasoline/

As time has progressed there are new regulations with limits on the
aromatic content.

The octane rating of ethanol is quite high, so less of a need for these
aromatics in E10.

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't bother with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

--
*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

Yep, more volatiles which are certainly more
carcinogenic, particularly with the benzenes.

On 05/03/2021 13:25, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

yes.


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market
they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't bother with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don’t you have prostate cancer ?

On 05/03/2021 14:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't bother with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

The risk you take is your choice, of all the things I don't do, is allow
petrol on my hands. I avoid inhaling the fumes.

Benzene and other aromatics have been known as a potent carcinogen for
decades. Typically leukaemias and blood cancers.

On 05/03/2021 13:25, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

Regular 4-star was largely made of alkanes / paraffins and tetra-ethyl lead.

Tetra-ethyl lead is a danger as it is easily absorbed by the human body
and is volatile.

Lead is a neurotoxin and is thought to be consistent with violent crimes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E...ime_hypothesis

Lead can be excreted from the human body, albeit slowly, therefore I
will leave it to you which is worse. Leukaemia vs nervous system issues?

I was just saying that unleaded fuels were not as safe as some might
lead us to believe.

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 03:47:25 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

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Message-ID:

On 04/03/2021 09:54, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:41:01 +0000, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 04/03/2021 00:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol - coming
here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it the usual
press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some time, and is
known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last
forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?


I'm not a chemist, but as far as I know, Ethanol doesn't attack solder.
However, Acetic Acid (Ethanoic Acid - oxydised Ethanol - vinegar) does
react with Lead and maybe there's some of that present.

The reaction product is Lead Acetate which used to be called 'Sugar of
Lead' because of its sweet taste, and maybe that explains the sweet
smell referred to by Brian Gaff later.

[Lead used to be hung in beer which has gone off to remove the vinegar
and replace it with Sugar of Lead. This is no longer done. Health and
safety gone mad, I say.]

The Romans used 'sugar of lead' to sweeten their wines. Said to be the
underlying cause of the fall of the Roman Empire as they all slowly
went mad and lost their powers of reason.

I always thought the smell of the exhaust of high-performance engines
such as in sports and racing cars at hill climb meetings etc was due
to the use of 'Castrol' somewhere in the fuel mix (whatever Castrol
was), but I'm probably wrong.

That was Castrol R, a castor oil based lubricant that was reckoned to
give slightly lower friction than mineral oil lubricants. This is where
the name "Castrol" came from, although their main products Castrolite
and XP were mineral oil. Some cafe racers in the old days used to add a
tablespoon of Castrol R to each tank of petrol to fake that exhaust smell.

On 04/03/2021 11:06, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:54:54 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 09:54:20 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

I always thought the smell of the exhaust of high-performance engines
such as in sports and racing cars at hill climb meetings etc was due to
the use of 'Castrol' somewhere in the fuel mix (whatever Castrol was),
but I'm probably wrong.

Lead in the petrol caused the sweetnes, Castrol was a vegetable oil used
in racing and left a very distinctive smell when burnt.

But until a few decades ago nearly all petrol contained lead, lead
tetraethyl, as an anti-knock additive, and I wasn't conscious of car
exhausts smelling particularly sweet.

They didn't. The lead came out as a simple oxide.

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:21:37 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 04/03/2021 00:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol - coming
here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it the usual
press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some time, and is
known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last
forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?


You're probably already using E5 petrol, E10 is just more of the same.

The biggest concern is that ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water,
and you don't want a watery fuel stagnating in your fuel tank.
Especially if you only use your car once in a while.

Where would this water come from? Would the moisture in the air (that
replaces the petrol) be sufficient to cause a problem? Does this
depend on temperature?

Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market
they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any
splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't bother
with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don’t you have prostate cancer ?

Benzene is bioaccumulative. It collects in bone marrow.

That means every time you choose to expose yourself to it,
you're adding to the total amount stored in your bone marrow.

Paul

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't bother with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

Neither did mine - nor did they when covered with sheep dip nor
creosote.
--
bert

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:21:37 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 04/03/2021 00:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming
here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it the usual
press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some time, and is
known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last
forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific was
mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?


You're probably already using E5 petrol, E10 is just more of the same.

The biggest concern is that ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water,
and you don't want a watery fuel stagnating in your fuel tank.
Especially if you only use your car once in a while.

Where would this water come from?

From the air in that soggy little frigid island.

Would the moisture in the air (that replaces
the petrol) be sufficient to cause a problem?

And what gets pumped in by the thermal
cycling of the petrol tank every day.

Does this depend on temperature?

In the sense that the thermal cycling does that, yep.

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the market
they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any
splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't bother
with gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don’t you have prostate cancer ?

Benzene is bioaccumulative. It collects in bone marrow.

First I had heard that and I was a chemist at one time.

But
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...one%20ma rrow.

Not a lot of hits on benzene bioaccumulative with google.

That means every time you choose to expose yourself to it,
you're adding to the total amount stored in your bone marrow.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 03:56:04 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

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Message-ID:

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 03:45:22 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

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MID:

On 06/03/2021 16:56, Rod Speed wrote:


"Paul" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
* Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the
market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any
splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't
bother with gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded
disappeared.

But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don’t you have prostate cancer ?

Benzene is bioaccumulative. It collects in bone marrow.

First I had heard that and I was a chemist at one time.

+1 (and I still do a bit of chemistry)

On 04/03/2021 19:06, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 04/03/2021 00:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming
here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it the usual
press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some time, and is
known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last
forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific was
mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?


You're probably already using E5 petrol, E10 is just more of the same.

The biggest concern is that ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water,
and you don't want a watery fuel stagnating in your fuel tank.
Especially if you only use your car once in a while.

You can get ethanol corrosion inhibitor to slow/stop these effects.

I'm surprised the equivalent of diesel bug isn't an issue?

No bugs like an ethanol water mix.

I was going to say that too, then I realised that I don't actually know
what oxidises it to acetic acid. I assume that is mediated by some
biological activity.


As long as the fuel is dry or has corrosion inhibitor then it
shouldn't attack either lead (in old solder) or zinc (in brass).

newshound wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Fredxx wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10
petrol - coming here later this year - will damage many older
cars. Much of it the usual press ********, after all E5 has been
around for quite some time, and is known to attack older
'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which don't last forever anyway.
Much of it generalization, but one specific was mentioned.

It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats
(those made of brass). Any comments?

You're probably already using E5 petrol, E10 is just more of the same.

The biggest concern is that ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs
water, and you don't want a watery fuel stagnating in your
fuel tank. Especially if you only use your car once in a while.

You can get ethanol corrosion inhibitor to slow/stop these effects.

I'm surprised the equivalent of diesel bug isn't an issue?

No bugs like an ethanol water mix.

I was going to say that too, then I realised that I don't
actually know what oxidises it to acetic acid. I assume
that is mediated by some biological activity.

I spose so, but yeast particularly does get killed by
higher levels of ethanol with fermentation of beer
and wine etc. And that happens at those levels of
ethanol. Tho certainly red wine particularly can
end up with quite bad sludge after decades.

As long as the fuel is dry or has corrosion inhibitor then it
shouldn't attack either lead (in old solder) or zinc (in brass).

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 09:13:16 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



I spose so, but yeast particularly does get killed by

Found another senile simpleton who doesn't want to see what's the matter
with you, sociopath? BG

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
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https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 06/03/2021 09:42, Paul wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
* Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the
market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any
splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't bother
with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don’t you have prostate cancer ?

Benzene is bioaccumulative. It collects in bone marrow.

That means every time you choose to expose yourself to it,
you're adding to the total amount stored in your bone marrow.

** Paul
Most evidence suggests it isn't bioaccumulative, first hit:


https://www.polymers.total.com/sites...ry-benzene.pdf

Can you provide evidence to assist with your claim?

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 21:54:18 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 06/03/2021 16:56, Rod Speed wrote:


"Paul" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message


But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don't you have prostate cancer ?

Benzene is bioaccumulative. It collects in bone marrow.

First I had heard that and I was a chemist at one time.

+1 (and I still do a bit of chemistry)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447593/

Its no news that benzene is carcinogenic and causes leukaemia.

What we were discussing is whether it is bioaccumulative.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 19:45:46 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

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MID:

Fredxx wrote:
On 06/03/2021 09:42, Paul wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the
market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any
splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't
bother with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don’t you have prostate cancer ?

Benzene is bioaccumulative. It collects in bone marrow.

That means every time you choose to expose yourself to it,
you're adding to the total amount stored in your bone marrow.

Paul
Most evidence suggests it isn't bioaccumulative, first hit:


https://www.polymers.total.com/sites...ry-benzene.pdf


Can you provide evidence to assist with your claim?

Well, it's not in the list here. Just some chlorinated
benzene products.

https://saferchemicals.org/get-the-f...hemicals-pbts/

And the stuff looks pretty safe here. There was other
materials we used in the chem building that were as
dangerous as the entries here suggest. I don't know
if this info was all available, the year the benzene was
removed.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...0of%20exposure

Exposure to 150 to 650 ppm for 4
months to 15 years caused pancytopenia (Aksoy
et al., 1972; Aksoy & Erdem, 1978). Chronic
exposure of up to eight years at a mean
benzene concentration of 75 ppm was
associated with the development of anemia and
leukopenia, but no such association was found
at mean exposure concentrations of 15 to 20
ppm for up to 27 years (Kipen et al., 1989).

This was the story I was given at the time, when
every bottle of benzene was remove from the chem building.

Looks like it's safer than dry cleaning fluid
(living in a dry cleaning plant).

A good time for all, and party on!

My mistake.

Paul

On 07/03/2021 09:34, Paul wrote:
Fredxx wrote:
On 06/03/2021 09:42, Paul wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
* Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:42:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/03/2021 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[quoted text muted]

What I am trying to say that when unleaded fuels entered the
market they
were toxic. You wouldn't want to inhale the vapours or get any
splashed
on your hands.

More so than regular 4-star ?

I often use petrol for cleaning oily car components. And don't
bother with
gloves. My hands didn't fall off after unleaded disappeared.

But there is some cancer risk due to the higher level
of benzenes, and don’t you have prostate cancer ?

Benzene is bioaccumulative. It collects in bone marrow.

That means every time you choose to expose yourself to it,
you're adding to the total amount stored in your bone marrow.

*** Paul
Most evidence suggests it isn't bioaccumulative, first hit:


https://www.polymers.total.com/sites...ry-benzene.pdf


Can you provide evidence to assist with your claim?

Well, it's not in the list here. Just some chlorinated
benzene products.

https://saferchemicals.org/get-the-f...hemicals-pbts/


And the stuff looks pretty safe here. There was other
materials we used in the chem building that were as
dangerous as the entries here suggest. I don't know
if this info was all available, the year the benzene was
removed.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...0of%20exposure


** Exposure to 150 to 650 ppm for 4
** months to 15 years caused pancytopenia (Aksoy
** et al., 1972; Aksoy & Erdem, 1978).* Chronic
** exposure of up to eight years at a mean
** benzene concentration of 75 ppm was
** associated with the development of anemia and
** leukopenia, but no such association was found
** at mean exposure concentrations of 15 to 20
** ppm for up to 27 years (Kipen et al., 1989).

This was the story I was given at the time, when
every bottle of benzene was remove from the chem building.

Looks like it's safer than dry cleaning fluid
(living in a dry cleaning plant).

A good time for all, and party on!

My mistake.

An honest one. I wasn't aware that low level exposure to benzene seems safe.

On 07/03/2021 10:49, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Sun, 07 Mar 2021 07:11:39 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 21:59:29 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 04/03/2021 19:06, Rod Speed wrote:


No bugs like an ethanol water mix.

I was going to say that too, then I realised that I don't actually know
what oxidises it to acetic acid. I assume that is mediated by some
biological activity.

AIUI wine is oxidised to acetic acid by bacteria, but above a certain
strength (e.g. sherry or stronger), the bacteria are either killed or
inactivated, I don't know which, so the beverages can be stored without
special precautions to exclude air.

One of the homebrew forums I used had a subsection for making vinegar.

Seems to be a bit harder than you'd imagine. Which supports my personal
experience of never once accidentally making it when making beer and wine.

a few hears ago my now ex made some cider. It got left. It turned into
the best cider vinegar ever


--
€œPuritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.€�

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Mar 2021 07:11:39 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 21:59:29 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 04/03/2021 19:06, Rod Speed wrote:


No bugs like an ethanol water mix.

I was going to say that too, then I realised that I don't actually know
what oxidises it to acetic acid. I assume that is mediated by some
biological activity.

AIUI wine is oxidised to acetic acid by bacteria, but above a certain
strength (e.g. sherry or stronger), the bacteria are either killed or
inactivated, I don't know which, so the beverages can be stored without
special precautions to exclude air.

One of the homebrew forums I used had a subsection for making vinegar.

Seems to be a bit harder than you'd imagine. Which supports my personal
experience of never once accidentally making it when making beer and wine.

Yeah, I havent either. Tho a mate of mine has made a couple of
bad batches of beer where it got infected and was undrinkable.

On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 04:39:30 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Yeah, I havent either.

NOBODY talked to you or asked you anything, senile pest!

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:05:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it
the usual press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some
time, and is known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which
don't last forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific
was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of brass).
Any comments?

I can remember when unleaded petrol was being phased in, and some
cockwombling fire chief scored weeks of publicity saying it was a bad
thing as it was more flammable that real petrol.

Which suggests (as always) the 80:20 law still applies, and 80% of
reportage is utter ********.

My feeling too. Or the articles I've read try to simplify things for us
peasants and invent 'science' that doesn't exist.


This one's a classic of pseudo-scientific misdirection:
https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...r-out-air.html
(Adverts at about 11:20)

One said the ethanol absorbs moisture from air.


It does; it's hygroscopic. But not noticeably so (see above). However,
you can't separate them again by simple fractional distillation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

And that 'condensation'
will attack lead, zinc, brass, copper and of course steel. As well as
rubber and some plastics.

I believe ethanol will dissolve some plastics (e.g., perspex?) though
obviously not all, especially not polythene bottles.

"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:05:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it
the usual press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some
time, and is known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes. Which
don't last forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one specific
was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of
brass).
Any comments?

I can remember when unleaded petrol was being phased in, and some
cockwombling fire chief scored weeks of publicity saying it was a bad
thing as it was more flammable that real petrol.

Which suggests (as always) the 80:20 law still applies, and 80% of
reportage is utter ********.

My feeling too. Or the articles I've read try to simplify things for us
peasants and invent 'science' that doesn't exist.


This one's a classic of pseudo-scientific misdirection:
https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...r-out-air.html
(Adverts at about 11:20)

One said the ethanol absorbs moisture from air.


It does; it's hygroscopic. But not noticeably so (see above). However,
you can't separate them again by simple fractional distillation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

And that 'condensation'
will attack lead, zinc, brass, copper and of course steel. As well as
rubber and some plastics.

I believe ethanol will dissolve some plastics (e.g., perspex?)

No it doesn't.

though obviously not all, especially not polythene bottles.

On 10/03/2021 01:31, Rod Speed wrote:


"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:05:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Â* Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of it
the usual press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite some
time, and is known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes.
Which
don't last forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one
specific
was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of
brass).
Any comments?

I can remember when unleaded petrol was being phased in, and some
cockwombling fire chief scored weeks of publicity saying it was a bad
thing as it was more flammable that real petrol.

Which suggests (as always) the 80:20 law still applies, and 80% of
reportage is utter ********.

My feeling too. Or the articles I've read try to simplify things for us
peasants and invent 'science' that doesn't exist.


This one's a classic of pseudo-scientific misdirection:
https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...r-out-air.html

(Adverts at about 11:20)

One said the ethanol absorbs moisture from air.


It does; it's hygroscopic. But not noticeably so (see above). However,
you can't separate them again by simple fractional distillation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

And that 'condensation'
will attack lead, zinc, brass, copper and of course steel. As well as
rubber and some plastics.

I believe ethanol will dissolve some plastics (e.g., perspex?)

No it doesn't.

The consensus is that it does, but not to a marked effect with perspex.

First link I came across:
https://www.eplastics.com/blog/chemi...lic-plexiglass

I'm genuinely surprised with your reply, crazing of perspex with ethanol
is well known and I thought you had a chemical background?

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 10/03/2021 01:31, Rod Speed wrote:


"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:05:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of
it
the usual press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite
some
time, and is known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes.
Which
don't last forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one
specific
was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of
brass).
Any comments?

I can remember when unleaded petrol was being phased in, and some
cockwombling fire chief scored weeks of publicity saying it was a bad
thing as it was more flammable that real petrol.

Which suggests (as always) the 80:20 law still applies, and 80% of
reportage is utter ********.

My feeling too. Or the articles I've read try to simplify things for us
peasants and invent 'science' that doesn't exist.


This one's a classic of pseudo-scientific misdirection:
https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...r-out-air.html
(Adverts at about 11:20)

One said the ethanol absorbs moisture from air.


It does; it's hygroscopic. But not noticeably so (see above). However,
you can't separate them again by simple fractional distillation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

And that 'condensation'
will attack lead, zinc, brass, copper and of course steel. As well as
rubber and some plastics.

I believe ethanol will dissolve some plastics (e.g., perspex?)

No it doesn't.

The consensus is that it does, but not to a marked effect with perspex.

First link I came across:
https://www.eplastics.com/blog/chemi...lic-plexiglass

I'm genuinely surprised with your reply, crazing of perspex with ethanol

Thats not DISSOLVING, ****wit.

is well known and I thought you had a chemical background?

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 10/03/2021 01:31, Rod Speed wrote:


"Custos Custodum" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:05:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 00:32:54 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Been quite a few scare stories in the press about how E10 petrol -
coming here later this year - will damage many older cars. Much of
it
the usual press ********, after all E5 has been around for quite
some
time, and is known to attack older 'rubber' flexible fuel pipes.
Which
don't last forever anyway. Much of it generalization, but one
specific
was mentioned.
It attacks the solder used on carburetter floats (those made of
brass).
Any comments?

I can remember when unleaded petrol was being phased in, and some
cockwombling fire chief scored weeks of publicity saying it was a bad
thing as it was more flammable that real petrol.

Which suggests (as always) the 80:20 law still applies, and 80% of
reportage is utter ********.

My feeling too. Or the articles I've read try to simplify things for us
peasants and invent 'science' that doesn't exist.


This one's a classic of pseudo-scientific misdirection:
https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...r-out-air.html
(Adverts at about 11:20)

One said the ethanol absorbs moisture from air.


It does; it's hygroscopic. But not noticeably so (see above). However,
you can't separate them again by simple fractional distillation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

And that 'condensation'
will attack lead, zinc, brass, copper and of course steel. As well as
rubber and some plastics.

I believe ethanol will dissolve some plastics (e.g., perspex?)

No it doesn't.

The consensus is that it does, but not to a marked effect with perspex.

First link I came across:
https://www.eplastics.com/blog/chemi...lic-plexiglass

Which says, with
absolute ethanol G - Little or no damage after 30 days of constant
exposure to the reagent.
ethanol 40% E - 30 days of constant exposure with no damage.
Plastic may even tolerate chemical for
years.

I'm genuinely surprised with your reply, crazing of perspex with ethanol
is well known

How odd that it didnt get a
N - Not recommended for continuous use. Immediate damage may
occur such as severe crazing, cracking, or permeation losses.

and I thought you had a chemical background?

I can read, too.

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 13:56:49 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: