On 01/01/2021 13:57, Paul wrote:
nightjar wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:36, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
David expressed precisely :
Instinct says that if you are very low on oxygen almost anything might
improve your chances.
However when the price gets towards £1,000 the sharp intake of breath
might well increase oxygen saturation anyway.

You can get digital Oxymeters quite cheaply £7. They clip on a
finger, self contained, working on batteries and show the oxygen
concentration in your blood, plus heart rate.

IME, they can give odd readings at times. Ear lobe probe meters seem
to be more reliable, but are more expensive.


They're supposed to be used at room temperature.
If you've been outside in winter, and immediately
take a PulseOX when you get inside, it might not be
accurate.

I usually check my partner's level first thing in the morning, while she
is still in bed and her hand is warm.

It's also not a good gadget, for someone with
Reynauds Syndrome (where many times a day, the
fingers have no blood in them). The little machine
would probably not even know it was clamped to a
finger in that case :-) It would probably think
it was scanning a sausage.

I have a PulseOX here, and it seems to be consistent.
It's never dropped below 90% on me so far.

I've not had problems with mine when reading over 90%. However, at lower
levels it can wander across a whole range of readings, seemingly at random.

But then,
I got it well after I was having trouble. So it sits
there for "next time". I like the machine mainly because
it "looks like a cardiogram", and you can see ripple
in the blood flow waveform, that corresponds to a
fluttery feeling in the chest. It can confirm that
you've "still got a pulse" :-)

The screen output on mine looks like this. And I do
like the waveform feature, because you can see
a correspondence between the waveform, and when
you have a "fluttery feeling" in the chest.

https://www.did.ie/homedics-oxywatch...-px-101-eu-prd


I'm sure if a doctor looked at your pulseOX, he would
entirely ignore the waveform as being "irrelevant".
I like doctors. Only the tests they order are "relevant".
Your anecdotal observations are to be thrown in the
trash. Just ask some dead people, how that worked
out for them.

My GP (now retired) used to take my observations very seriously. When I
reported a side effect from new medication, which the manufacturers said
affected under 5% of patients, he asked everybody else on the same
medication and came up with a figure of nearer 25%. it was simply that
the others hadn't made the connection between a cough and the medication.


--
Colin Bignell

On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if
you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window
cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen being
used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by the
patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

What's happening is that oxygen enriched air is being fed into the
patient's lungs. The patient absorbs some of that oxygen, and the excess
gets expelled back into the room, where it mixes with the remaining air.


Whether it makes sense to you or not, that is my experience of using
one. I get the same thing with the concentrator in my car. If I forget
to crack open a window, after a while it reminds me of its presence by
making the air feel heavy.

--
Colin Bignell

On 01/01/2021 16:52, nightjar wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if
you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window
cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen being
used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by the
patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

What's happening is that oxygen enriched air is being fed into the
patient's lungs. The patient absorbs some of that oxygen, and the
excess gets expelled back into the room, where it mixes with the
remaining air.


Whether it makes sense to you or not, that is my experience of using
one. I get the same thing with the concentrator in my car. If I forget
to crack open a window, after a while it reminds me of its presence by
making the air feel heavy.



Indeed, if you stay in a sealed room, concentrator or not, you'll
deplete the oxygen.

On 01/01/2021 16:51, nightjar wrote:

My GP (now retired) used to take my observations very seriously. When I
reported a side effect from new medication, which the manufacturers said
affected under 5% of patients, he asked everybody else on the same
medication and came up with a figure of nearer 25%. it was simply that
the others hadn't made the connection between a cough and the medication.

I'm on the Novavax Phase 3 vaccine trial. Before joining, I read the
phase 1/2 trial results quite carefully, and I noticed that 30% of the
participants on the placebo reported side effects.

It's not just that they were wusses. They were specifically asked to
report all side effects. Also, they were on a vaccine that nobody had
had before, and it's perfectly natural that they were on their guard.

"David" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 05:19:32 +1100, Fred wrote:

David wrote

In these harsh Covid times there are reports of no spare beds, and
hospitals running out of oxygen.

It is a reasonable assumption that one could catch Covid,

Trivial to avoid that happening.

need oxygen, and find that there are no beds available and no spare
oxygen cylinders for home use as supplies have run out.

I can see that you can buy an oxygen concentrator for around £250-£300.
I also see from https://bnf.nice.org.uk/treatment-summary/oxygen.html

Makes more sense to avoid getting infected or get vaccinated to avoid
severe disease and the need for oxygen.

That seems on the face of it to be a brain dead response.

Generating your own oxygen and treating yourself
if you do get infected is much more brain dead.

Avoiding catching Covid but also doing
basics like shopping isn't a given.

But getting what you need delivered and
not getting infected in the first place is.

Vaccination may not be available
until the middle of the year.

Its available now/

On 01/01/2021 17:49, Fred wrote:

But getting what you need delivered and
not getting infected in the first place is.

We haven't shopped for groceries since last March. We get everything
delivered. The deliveries are left in our porch. Occasionally, we have
to show age ID, but that's a passport pressed against the window.

We go out of our house for exercise, and zig zag across the road to
avoid other people.

Essentially, with our lifestyle, Covid is optional, and we choose not to
catch it.

I appreciate that we are quite fortunate. We live in a suburb, with
quite spread out houses. And, we can afford to pay the extra for grocery
deliveries.

Nevertheless, even compared to other people in our area, we are
noticeably much more careful in our Covid precautions.

On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if
you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window
cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen being
used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by the
patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

Are you *sure* about that?


What's happening is that oxygen enriched air is being fed into the
patient's lungs. The patient absorbs some of that oxygen, and the excess
gets expelled back into the room, where it mixes with the remaining air.

On 01/01/2021 14:42, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/01/2021 14:01, Paul wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 01/01/2021 07:22, Andy Burns wrote:
jon wrote:

My wife has Pulmonary Hypertension and gets breathless quickly, so I
bought her one of these for Christmas.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086ZQ8D4W
Seems that's not the air concentrator type discussed before, but one
that splits water?

No, it is a concentrator. See penultimate bullet point under main
heading:
"�¤ ã€�Molecular Sieve Oxygen Generator】 Molecular sieve oxygen
generator is an advanced gas separation technology. The physical
method (PSA method) directly extracts oxygen from the air, which is
ready for use, fresh and natural. No atomization function. "

Were you perhaps confusing the need for water in the humidifier?


That might be their term for zeolite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite

which says, "Zeolites are microporous, aluminosilicate minerals commonly
used as commercial adsorbents and catalysts".

A lot of molecular sieves are Zeolites.

newshound wrote:
On 01/01/2021 14:42, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/01/2021 14:01, Paul wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 01/01/2021 07:22, Andy Burns wrote:
jon wrote:

My wife has Pulmonary Hypertension and gets breathless quickly, so I
bought her one of these for Christmas.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086ZQ8D4W
Seems that's not the air concentrator type discussed before, but one
that splits water?

No, it is a concentrator. See penultimate bullet point under main
heading:
"�¤ ã€�Molecular Sieve Oxygen Generator】 Molecular sieve oxygen
generator is an advanced gas separation technology. The physical
method (PSA method) directly extracts oxygen from the air, which is
ready for use, fresh and natural. No atomization function. "

Were you perhaps confusing the need for water in the humidifier?


That might be their term for zeolite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite

which says, "Zeolites are microporous, aluminosilicate minerals
commonly used as commercial adsorbents and catalysts".

A lot of molecular sieves are Zeolites.

This is where zeolites get mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_concentrator

Zeolites are used in:

Gas chromatograph columns.
As filler for high pressure hydrogen tanks, as a means to slow the release of hydrogen.
As capture matrix for R12 recovery cylinders (when they decommission an air conditioner or fridge).
Oxygen concentrators.

Really pretty amazing, low key materials.

Paul

Paul

On 01/01/2021 17:25, GB wrote:
On 01/01/2021 16:52, nightjar wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if
you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window
cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen being
used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by the
patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

What's happening is that oxygen enriched air is being fed into the
patient's lungs. The patient absorbs some of that oxygen, and the
excess gets expelled back into the room, where it mixes with the
remaining air.


Whether it makes sense to you or not, that is my experience of using
one. I get the same thing with the concentrator in my car. If I forget
to crack open a window, after a while it reminds me of its presence by
making the air feel heavy.



Indeed, if you stay in a sealed room, concentrator or not, you'll
deplete the oxygen.

No more than someone breathing within the same room. The rate of
conversion from O2 to CO2 should be independent on whether the
concentrator is used, or not.

Conservation of mass rules apply in this sealed room.

Now if the O2 is piped out of the room then that's a different matter.

On 01/01/2021 20:59, newshound wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if
you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window
cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen being
used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by the
patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

Are you *sure* about that?

Yes. The O2 doesn't disappear out of the room.

What's happening is that oxygen enriched air is being fed into the
patient's lungs. The patient absorbs some of that oxygen, and the
excess gets expelled back into the room, where it mixes with the
remaining air.

On 02/01/2021 01:23, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/01/2021 20:59, newshound wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but, if
you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a window
cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen being
used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by the
patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

Are you *sure* about that?

Yes. The O2 doesn't disappear out of the room.

The only reason I said "The oxygen concentrator won't alter that
significantly" is that I was thinking the patient might need to make
less effort breathing with the concentrator, and so would use up less of
the O2.




What's happening is that oxygen enriched air is being fed into the
patient's lungs. The patient absorbs some of that oxygen, and the
excess gets expelled back into the room, where it mixes with the
remaining air.

GB wrote:
On 02/01/2021 01:23, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/01/2021 20:59, newshound wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but,
if you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a
window cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen
being used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by
the patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

Are you *sure* about that?

Yes. The O2 doesn't disappear out of the room.

The only reason I said "The oxygen concentrator won't alter that
significantly" is that I was thinking the patient might need to make
less effort breathing with the concentrator, and so would use up less of
the O2.

COVID is very hard on the lungs.

An ECMO machine could keep you alive, even if you were
brain dead and your lungs were completely filled with
fluid. It could even keep you going, until a lung transplant
could be arranged. But with the number of people with damaged
lungs, there would not be enough car-accident victims to
serve the lung-transplant queue.

Any time you spend at home, sick with this stuff, is "fools time".
A major risk is blood clots, not a bit of coughing and breathing
difficulty. People who have been "whiny but otherwise OK",
have clotted out in their sleep, and are found dead in the
morning. I don't think there's much profit in "toughing it
out at home", if what you really need is heparin blood thinner
and a watchful eye kept on you for internal bleeding.

By all means, have an oxygen concentrator, but be aware
there are other risk factors that compromise the outcome.
You could be maintaining "parity" with your opponent using
the oxygen concentrator, while inside you, every cubic inch
is full of clots.

For some reason, on young people, this manifests as "COVID toe",
where the clots are in the feet.

Paul

On 02/01/2021 12:52, GB wrote:
On 02/01/2021 01:23, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/01/2021 20:59, newshound wrote:
On 01/01/2021 11:14, GB wrote:
On 31/12/2020 18:53, nightjar wrote:

The amount of oxygen they take from the air is fairly small, but,
if you are in the same room as the compressor and don't have a
window cracked open, it can feel a bit stuffy after a few hours.


This doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. The amount of oxygen
being used up in the room is the amount being converted into CO2 by
the patient. The oxygen concentrator won't alter that significantly.

Are you *sure* about that?

Yes. The O2 doesn't disappear out of the room.

The only reason I said "The oxygen concentrator won't alter that
significantly" is that I was thinking the patient might need to make
less effort breathing with the concentrator, and so would use up less of
the O2.



I think that fed with a higher concentration of oxygen, the patient's
metabolism will run a bit faster, so potentially reducing the room
concentration consistent with Colin's experimental observation.

Apparently in the Dutch Army they teach conscripts "if the terrain and
the map do not match, it is not the terrain that is wrong".

On 03/01/2021 15:06, newshound wrote:
Apparently in the Dutch Army they teach conscripts "if the terrain and
the map do not match, it is not the terrain that is wrong".
Swedish babies have 'fragile: this side up. Not suitable for microwave
drying' tattooed on their babies heads when they are born.

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

Paul wrote on 01/01/2021 :
They're supposed to be used at room temperature.
If you've been outside in winter, and immediately
take a PulseOX when you get inside, it might not be
accurate.

Mine will not work at all with cold fingers, it just shows blanks
despite showing a pulse in its bargraph.

Paul pretended :
The screen output on mine looks like this. And I do
like the waveform feature, because you can see
a correspondence between the waveform, and when
you have a "fluttery feeling" in the chest.

Mine shows a tiny crude cardio, but I don't know whether it is a
genuine cardio or synthesised. In interviews with the docs, they have
asked me if I ever notice heart palpitations - not really knowing what
one should feel like, all I can reply is that I have absolutely no
idea.

The only times I notice my heartbeat is when I feel my wrist or temple
etc. for it, or sometimes can audibly hear the beat in my ears. I
asked, and was told that is quite normal.

nightjar formulated the question :
I've not had problems with mine when reading over 90%. However, at lower
levels it can wander across a whole range of readings, seemingly at random.

I'm on iron IV and a monthly injection because of low iron level in my
blood. The low level apparently, was making my oxygen take up in my
blood poor and causing rapid fatigue. I bought the Oxymeter out of
curiosity to keep an eye on my levels, but too late, after the IV and
first jab.

It never reads less than 97, once it has settled. It seems to read low
initially, maybe 94, then rises up from there after a few seconds.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

The only times I notice my heartbeat is when I feel my wrist or temple
etc. for it

Several times I've been lying in bed and heard a cup or glass perched on
the headboard rattling gently against the wall ...

"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
Paul pretended :
The screen output on mine looks like this. And I do
like the waveform feature, because you can see
a correspondence between the waveform, and when
you have a "fluttery feeling" in the chest.

Mine shows a tiny crude cardio, but I don't know whether it is a genuine
cardio or synthesised. In interviews with the docs, they have asked me if
I ever notice heart palpitations - not really knowing what one should feel
like, all I can reply is that I have absolutely no idea.

The only times I notice my heartbeat is when I feel my wrist or temple
etc. for it, or sometimes can audibly hear the beat in my ears. I asked,
and was told that is quite normal.

I do sometimes get missed beats that I can feel.

My physician who I havent caught with an error yet, unlike
my GP, says that that is normal and nothing to worry about.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Paul pretended :
The screen output on mine looks like this. And I do
like the waveform feature, because you can see
a correspondence between the waveform, and when
you have a "fluttery feeling" in the chest.

Mine shows a tiny crude cardio, but I don't know whether it is a genuine
cardio or synthesised. In interviews with the docs, they have asked me
if I ever notice heart palpitations - not really knowing what one should
feel like, all I can reply is that I have absolutely no idea.

The only times I notice my heartbeat is when I feel my wrist or temple
etc. for it, or sometimes can audibly hear the beat in my ears. I asked,
and was told that is quite normal.

What the graph represents, is a measure of blood flow. Which
is driven by pressure. This makes the graph, even though of
blood flow, a measure of pressure too. Sometimes you can
notice a correspondence between what the graph shows and
how you're feeling - without using your separate blood
pressure meter. Some of the ripples in the graph would
represent turbulence in your circulatory system.

It suggests the pulseOX might have one LED light source,
but on the receiving side has a receiver array, and that's
how (like a computer mouse), it can "see" blood flow.
By comparing what each pixel sees.

As a practical example, normally my sitting heart rate
might be 60 BPM. Sometimes when I use the blood pressure
machine, it happily reports "your BPM is 180". And of course
I'm not running a marathon, so that's not possible. The reading
would always be exactly 3X the correct value.

When I fire up the PulseOX and look, there are three peaks
on the waveform. And that clever blood pressure machine
has taken the first derivative of the waveform and spotted
the blips in its math, and counts the three peaks in its
BPM count.

So at least now I know where the blood pressure machine
erroneous readings come from. There is something real
and physical that is happening, at the time. And I
probably don't feel "100% correct" at the time.

I've never had a chance to do a PulseOX when the angina
shows up. It feels like an electric shock, at the pulse
rate, and there's one slight incline I go up when out
for a walk, where it might show up. In terms of intensity,
all I can say is "you can't miss it". It's that annoying.

My favorite quote from the doctor is

"you could drop dead you know"

The doctor is great at the double entendre. I've not
been told what the symptoms would be like, leading
up to "dropping dead". So I can be wearing the
right hat at the time.

Paul

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 03:33:42 +1100, Fred, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

03:33??? And you are up and trolling ALREADY, you subnormal senile idiot?
LOL

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID: