I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!

On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!

another course at ground level and all the rises would be the same...tee hee

On Sunday, 13 September 2020 17:41:40 UTC+1, wrote:
The question is, except for rebuilding the steps,

I make it you've got 11 courses to spread over x steps.

Unfortunately 11 is a prime number.

Owain

Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

That's the sort of thing I was thinking. I was looking to see if anyone had done anything similar

On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?

lift the stupid skinny slab things and build a course on each
level....top slab level with patio then grade the grass up so all rises
are the same...simples....

On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
....
The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption.

Uneven riser heights is a very well known trip hazard. SFAIK, there is
no solution, apart from correcting the fault.

As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!

From the picture, it won't be possible using full size bricks. Cast
concrete steps would allow you to get the rises even. Adding brick side
walls to the height of the main area would visually match the rest of
the construction.


--
Colin Bignell

"Jim GM4 DHJ ..." Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?

lift the stupid skinny slab things and build a course on each
level....top slab level with patio then grade the grass up so all rises
are the same...simples....


That's probably the proper solution...
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Jimk Wrote in message:
"Jim GM4 DHJ ..." Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?

lift the stupid skinny slab things and build a course on each
level....top slab level with patio then grade the grass up so all rises
are the same...simples....


That's probably the proper solution...

Although one extra course on the top step won't bring it level w
the patio....
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!

Rebuild the level 3 step by putting half a course under it. That will
even up the gaps at the top.

OR Build up the 4th level to have the same gaps as the others, so that
you step onto it and then down a bit onto the patio.

OR Put up a warning notice!
--
Cheers,
Roger

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down
to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The
problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others.
People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our
brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that
the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can
do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can
see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!

Rebuild the level 3 step by putting half a course under it. That will even
up the gaps at the top.

OR Build up the 4th level to have the same gaps as the others, so that you
step onto it and then down a bit onto the patio.

OR Put up a warning notice!

Cant see that a warning notice would work, he
already knows about the problem and trips anyway.

On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?



Assuming the slabs on the steps are 50 mm thick, if you take all the
slabs off the 3 steps and tile in non-slip 10 mm thick floor tiles, that
might make a difference.

But of course, the tiles will not match the patio area.....

S.

On 13/09/2020 19:28, Jimk wrote:
Jimk Wrote in message:
"Jim GM4 DHJ ..." Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?

lift the stupid skinny slab things and build a course on each
level....top slab level with patio then grade the grass up so all rises
are the same...simples....


That's probably the proper solution...

Although one extra course on the top step won't bring it level w
the patio....

well sweeten the levels out....That is what I advised people to do when
they fecked it up like that....

On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 09:41:36 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!


How about filling in the gap at the top, level with the rest of the
wall? The top increment would only be slightly higher than the others.
But it may be more hazardous going down if you're not looking where
you're going.
--
Dave W

On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:30:52 +0100, nightjar wrote:

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there
anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption.

Uneven riser heights is a very well known trip hazard. SFAIK, there is
no solution, apart from correcting the fault.

Agreed and it doesn't take much difference to be a problem. A 1/4"
can do it. The treads seem quite deep as well. Rise height v tread
depth are related to make steps easier to climb/descend and there are
recomended ranges.

Looking at the picture I'd (get the builder to) rebuild the whole
step block so:

The riser height is the same for all steps. (His cock up...).

Make the treads less deep.

Narrower so you don't have that silly part bit of flagstone.
Or just alternate the part flagstone between the ends of each step to
make it look better.

The front lip of the step flagstones is unsupported and they look
pretty thin. In time I can see that breaking and/or the lever action
causing the flagstone's bond to the supporting construction to fail
along the rear edge.

There doesn't appear to be anything holding the end bricks of the row
along the edge of the main raised area in place,

From the picture, it won't be possible using full size bricks. Cast
concrete steps would allow you to get the rises even.

It's certainly going to be an interesting excercise. Though you might
be able to get away by just removing a course of bricks below each
step. I don't think the first step up from the grass being different
will cause the trip hazard.

Mind you steps three courses high seem a bit on the big size and as
removing a course would require a rebuild one ought to be able to
arrange for a more conventional rise/tread ratio and maybe tuck the
rear edge of the flags into the riser to prevent that rear bond
failing.

Adding brick side walls to the height of the main area would visually
match the rest of the construction.

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...

PS. OP: Are you THE Dave Chamberlain? You'll know if you are...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sunday, 13 September 2020 23:52:20 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:30:52 +0100, nightjar wrote:

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there
anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption.

Uneven riser heights is a very well known trip hazard. SFAIK, there is
no solution, apart from correcting the fault.

Agreed and it doesn't take much difference to be a problem. A 1/4"
can do it. The treads seem quite deep as well. Rise height v tread
depth are related to make steps easier to climb/descend and there are
recomended ranges.

Looking at the picture I'd (get the builder to) rebuild the whole
step block so:

The riser height is the same for all steps. (His cock up...).

Make the treads less deep.

Narrower so you don't have that silly part bit of flagstone.
Or just alternate the part flagstone between the ends of each step to
make it look better.

The front lip of the step flagstones is unsupported and they look
pretty thin. In time I can see that breaking and/or the lever action
causing the flagstone's bond to the supporting construction to fail
along the rear edge.

There doesn't appear to be anything holding the end bricks of the row
along the edge of the main raised area in place,

From the picture, it won't be possible using full size bricks. Cast
concrete steps would allow you to get the rises even.

It's certainly going to be an interesting excercise. Though you might
be able to get away by just removing a course of bricks below each
step. I don't think the first step up from the grass being different
will cause the trip hazard.

Mind you steps three courses high seem a bit on the big size and as
removing a course would require a rebuild one ought to be able to
arrange for a more conventional rise/tread ratio and maybe tuck the
rear edge of the flags into the riser to prevent that rear bond
failing.

Adding brick side walls to the height of the main area would visually
match the rest of the construction.

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...

PS. OP: Are you THE Dave Chamberlain? You'll know if you are...

I can't help think that stair is a complete f up. Uneven height, uneven going too, no hand rail, and an overhanging thin nose. I see no way to salvage it bar a rebuild. Sitting a wooden stair on top would also be possible, but would look strange if the sides were open.


NT

Bright paint on each edge? Cheap and worth a try.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
wrote in message
...
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to
the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem
seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me
included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are
looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below
is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do
to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see
from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!

Yellow paint works better in low light.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jimk" wrote in message
o.uk...
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down
to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The
problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others.
People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our
brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that
the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can
do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can
see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 00:45:57 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2020 23:52:20 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:30:52 +0100, nightjar wrote:

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there
anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption.

Uneven riser heights is a very well known trip hazard. SFAIK, there is
no solution, apart from correcting the fault.

Agreed and it doesn't take much difference to be a problem. A 1/4"
can do it. The treads seem quite deep as well. Rise height v tread
depth are related to make steps easier to climb/descend and there are
recomended ranges.

Looking at the picture I'd (get the builder to) rebuild the whole
step block so:

The riser height is the same for all steps. (His cock up...).

Make the treads less deep.

Narrower so you don't have that silly part bit of flagstone.
Or just alternate the part flagstone between the ends of each step to
make it look better.

The front lip of the step flagstones is unsupported and they look
pretty thin. In time I can see that breaking and/or the lever action
causing the flagstone's bond to the supporting construction to fail
along the rear edge.

There doesn't appear to be anything holding the end bricks of the row
along the edge of the main raised area in place,

From the picture, it won't be possible using full size bricks. Cast
concrete steps would allow you to get the rises even.

It's certainly going to be an interesting excercise. Though you might
be able to get away by just removing a course of bricks below each
step. I don't think the first step up from the grass being different
will cause the trip hazard.

Mind you steps three courses high seem a bit on the big size and as
removing a course would require a rebuild one ought to be able to
arrange for a more conventional rise/tread ratio and maybe tuck the
rear edge of the flags into the riser to prevent that rear bond
failing.

Adding brick side walls to the height of the main area would visually
match the rest of the construction.

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...

PS. OP: Are you THE Dave Chamberlain? You'll know if you are...
I can't help think that stair is a complete f up. Uneven height, uneven going too, no hand rail, and an overhanging thin nose. I see no way to salvage it bar a rebuild. Sitting a wooden stair on top would also be possible, but would look strange if the sides were open.


NT

Assuming that you left the builder to come up with the layout of the steps then you have every right to get him to redo it. It's badly done, and dangerous. The safety bods would also want to see a handrail around the patio - any drop over 600mm should really be guarded.

It's not 100% clear from the picture, but you might also have problems with drainage. It looks like any rain on the patio will end up flowing down the steps. Not fun in the winter.

On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.

On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!


Paint lots of thin parallel lines on them |||||| and put a sign up
saying 'escalator out of order'.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 13/09/2020 20:06, No Name wrote:
On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?



Assuming the slabs on the steps are 50 mm thick, if you take all the
slabs off the 3 steps and tile in non-slip 10 mm thick floor tiles, that
might make a difference.

But of course, the tiles will not match the patio area.....

S.

Only 'council' slabs are 50mm thick these days, and they are
'heavy'. Most DIY stuff is between 30 and 40mm thick, but those
'slabs' look more like cheapo Indian sandstone to me.

But not for you. A proper pair of piers at the top
of the steps with a perimeter guardrail and maybe a
handrail on the steps, surely ?.

How many toddlers are going to fall over that edgeing?

Andrew

On 14/09/2020 08:33, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Yellow paint works better in low light.
Brian

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 20:06, No Name wrote:
On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?



Assuming the slabs on the steps are 50 mm thick, if you take all the
slabs off the 3 steps and tile in non-slip 10 mm thick floor tiles, that
might make a difference.

But of course, the tiles will not match the patio area.....

S.

Only 'council' slabs are 50mm thick these days, and they are
'heavy'. Most DIY stuff is between 30 and 40mm thick, but those
'slabs' look more like cheapo Indian sandstone to me.


& infinitely better than concrete fakery IMHO
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
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On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption.
Drop the lawn a few inches.

On Sunday, 13 September 2020 19:21:11 UTC+1, Jim GM4 DHJ ... wrote:
On 13/09/2020 18:53, Jimk wrote:
Wrote in message:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!



ramp?
White paint on step edges?

lift the stupid skinny slab things and build a course on each
level....top slab level with patio then grade the grass up so all rises
are the same...simples....

I'm thinking this might work, but it still doesn't bring us up to the same level as the patio. The top step would have to slope upwards towards the patio.

On Sunday, 13 September 2020 23:11:58 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
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\================================================= ================/

That's an interesting idea. No idea how it would look but it's definitely worth thinking about!

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?
--
Jimk


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On Monday, 14 September 2020 08:31:46 UTC+1, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Bright paint on each edge? Cheap and worth a try.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
wrote in message
...
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps down to
the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps. The problem
seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the others. People (me
included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step. I guess our brains are
looking ahead and see the rise of the top step and assume that the one below
is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I can do
to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As you can see
from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild them!

I was thinking. maybe if I used black paint on the top riser, and brought it down so I painted the back of the slab too, maybe this would make the riser look bigger that it really is. It would probably make the steps look **** though!

On Monday, 14 September 2020 11:41:51 UTC+1, Nikki Smith wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 00:45:57 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2020 23:52:20 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:30:52 +0100, nightjar wrote:

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there
anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption.

Uneven riser heights is a very well known trip hazard. SFAIK, there is
no solution, apart from correcting the fault.

Agreed and it doesn't take much difference to be a problem. A 1/4"
can do it. The treads seem quite deep as well. Rise height v tread
depth are related to make steps easier to climb/descend and there are
recomended ranges.

Looking at the picture I'd (get the builder to) rebuild the whole
step block so:

The riser height is the same for all steps. (His cock up...).

Make the treads less deep.

Narrower so you don't have that silly part bit of flagstone.
Or just alternate the part flagstone between the ends of each step to
make it look better.

The front lip of the step flagstones is unsupported and they look
pretty thin. In time I can see that breaking and/or the lever action
causing the flagstone's bond to the supporting construction to fail
along the rear edge.

There doesn't appear to be anything holding the end bricks of the row
along the edge of the main raised area in place,

From the picture, it won't be possible using full size bricks. Cast
concrete steps would allow you to get the rises even.

It's certainly going to be an interesting excercise. Though you might
be able to get away by just removing a course of bricks below each
step. I don't think the first step up from the grass being different
will cause the trip hazard.

Mind you steps three courses high seem a bit on the big size and as
removing a course would require a rebuild one ought to be able to
arrange for a more conventional rise/tread ratio and maybe tuck the
rear edge of the flags into the riser to prevent that rear bond
failing.

Adding brick side walls to the height of the main area would visually
match the rest of the construction.

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...

PS. OP: Are you THE Dave Chamberlain? You'll know if you are...
I can't help think that stair is a complete f up. Uneven height, uneven going too, no hand rail, and an overhanging thin nose. I see no way to salvage it bar a rebuild. Sitting a wooden stair on top would also be possible, but would look strange if the sides were open.


NT

Assuming that you left the builder to come up with the layout of the steps then you have every right to get him to redo it. It's badly done, and dangerous. The safety bods would also want to see a handrail around the patio - any drop over 600mm should really be guarded.

It's not 100% clear from the picture, but you might also have problems with drainage. It looks like any rain on the patio will end up flowing down the steps. Not fun in the winter.

I agree. I doubt we'd be able to get him back though. It was supposed to be finished in October last year. His list of excuses was very long!

On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.

On Sunday, 13 September 2020 23:52:20 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:30:52 +0100, nightjar wrote:

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there
anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption.

Uneven riser heights is a very well known trip hazard. SFAIK, there is
no solution, apart from correcting the fault.

Agreed and it doesn't take much difference to be a problem. A 1/4"
can do it. The treads seem quite deep as well. Rise height v tread
depth are related to make steps easier to climb/descend and there are
recomended ranges.

Looking at the picture I'd (get the builder to) rebuild the whole
step block so:

The riser height is the same for all steps. (His cock up...).

Make the treads less deep.

Narrower so you don't have that silly part bit of flagstone.
Or just alternate the part flagstone between the ends of each step to
make it look better.

The front lip of the step flagstones is unsupported and they look
pretty thin. In time I can see that breaking and/or the lever action
causing the flagstone's bond to the supporting construction to fail
along the rear edge.

Good point


There doesn't appear to be anything holding the end bricks of the row
along the edge of the main raised area in place,

Yep - I've had to re-cement 2 already


From the picture, it won't be possible using full size bricks. Cast
concrete steps would allow you to get the rises even.

It's certainly going to be an interesting excercise. Though you might
be able to get away by just removing a course of bricks below each
step. I don't think the first step up from the grass being different
will cause the trip hazard.

Mind you steps three courses high seem a bit on the big size and as
removing a course would require a rebuild one ought to be able to
arrange for a more conventional rise/tread ratio and maybe tuck the
rear edge of the flags into the riser to prevent that rear bond
failing.

Adding brick side walls to the height of the main area would visually
match the rest of the construction.

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...

PS. OP: Are you THE Dave Chamberlain? You'll know if you are...

I'm the only one I know. But I don't think I'm who you're thinking of!


--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday, 14 September 2020 13:56:58 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.

There's a single brick height step from the house onto the patio. This is also too narrow, and we've had people falling down this too. At least this is a simpler problem to fix.

I thought, maybe the best thing to do would be to get rid of the row of bricks round the edge and raise the whole patio by 1 brick. That would fix both problems in one go. And yes, I would probably put some barriers on.

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."

--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 13/09/2020 23:52, Dave Liquorice wrote:
....
Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...
....

I assumed that was the next stage of construction. That patio looks as
though it involved 'significant works of embanking or terracing to
support the patio', which would mean it needed planning permission and I
don't see it getting that without railings being in the plan.


--
Colin Bignell

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I was thinking. maybe if I used black paint on the top riser, and
brought it down so I painted the back of the slab too, maybe this would
make the riser look bigger that it really is.

I don't think the reason for tripping is a false visual cue. You
still trip on unequal risers when you can't see the steps, carrying a
large box for example.

The trip is either catching your toe on the front edge of a step when
it's fractionally higher or not contacting a solid surface when you
expect to if fractionally lower, which causes momentary panic in the
balance department.

Normal subconcious walking or ascending/decending steps is a
controlled constant fall forward, anything that upsets the timing of
contact with the ground upsets that controlled fall forward and panis
the balcnce department. If you're traversing rough ground or
obviously uneven "steps" you consiously look where you are putting
your feet...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 07:43:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I agree. I doubt we'd be able to get him back though. It was supposed to
be finished in October last year. His list of excuses was very long!

There is only one way to keep a builder interested in completing a
job: Don't make the last (50%) payment until it's done and snagged.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 16:35:27 +0100, nightjar wrote:

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes
me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...
....

I assumed that was the next stage of construction.

The OP said "recently" but judging by the lack of mud and complete
long grass cover right up to the retaining walls and steps "recently"
is several months ago. Ah, supposed to have been finished Oct last
year...

That patio looks as though it involved 'significant works of embanking
or terracing to support the patio', which would mean it needed planning
permission and I don't see it getting that without railings being in the
plan.

Agreed it wouldn't. If planning permission was sought. It wouldn't
occur to me that a raised patio would require planning... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 07:47:01 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

PS. OP: Are you THE Dave Chamberlain? You'll know if you are...

I'm the only one I know. But I don't think I'm who you're thinking of!

You'd know. We would have worked together. Happy happy happy... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.