On 14/09/2020 15:39, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2020 23:11:58 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.


That's an interesting idea. No idea how it would look but it's definitely worth thinking about!

I would guess something like:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...tenedSteps.png




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 14 September 2020 17:07:40 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I was thinking. maybe if I used black paint on the top riser, and
brought it down so I painted the back of the slab too, maybe this would
make the riser look bigger that it really is.

I don't think the reason for tripping is a false visual cue. You
still trip on unequal risers when you can't see the steps, carrying a
large box for example.

I (and everyone else) tends to trip on the way up, on the top step, so before you get to the top where the smaller rise is. Up to that point the steps are pretty even.


The trip is either catching your toe on the front edge of a step when
it's fractionally higher or not contacting a solid surface when you
expect to if fractionally lower, which causes momentary panic in the
balance department.

Normal subconcious walking or ascending/decending steps is a
controlled constant fall forward, anything that upsets the timing of
contact with the ground upsets that controlled fall forward and panis
the balcnce department. If you're traversing rough ground or
obviously uneven "steps" you consiously look where you are putting
your feet...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday, 14 September 2020 18:00:18 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 16:35:27 +0100, nightjar wrote:

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes
me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...
....

I assumed that was the next stage of construction.

The OP said "recently" but judging by the lack of mud and complete
long grass cover right up to the retaining walls and steps "recently"
is several months ago. Ah, supposed to have been finished Oct last
year...
It was supposed to have been finished last October, but was actually finished on the 6th August this year.


That patio looks as though it involved 'significant works of embanking
or terracing to support the patio', which would mean it needed planning
permission and I don't see it getting that without railings being in the
plan.

Agreed it wouldn't. If planning permission was sought. It wouldn't
occur to me that a raised patio would require planning... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 14/09/2020 18:00, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 16:35:27 +0100, nightjar wrote:

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes
me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...
....

I assumed that was the next stage of construction.

The OP said "recently" but judging by the lack of mud and complete
long grass cover right up to the retaining walls and steps "recently"
is several months ago. Ah, supposed to have been finished Oct last
year...

That patio looks as though it involved 'significant works of embanking
or terracing to support the patio', which would mean it needed planning
permission and I don't see it getting that without railings being in the
plan.

Agreed it wouldn't. If planning permission was sought. It wouldn't
occur to me that a raised patio would require planning... B-)

That rather depends upon the construction. If that front wall acts as a
retaining wall, it almost certainly would. It then becomes an
engineering work, rather than just a patio.

--
Colin Bignell

On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

wrote:

I (and everyone else) tends to trip on the way up, on the top step, so before you get to the top where the smaller rise is. Up to that point the steps are pretty even.

Looks as though the going is longer on the bottom step, so that
is yet another disruption to the rhythm.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On Monday, 14 September 2020 17:07:40 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I was thinking. maybe if I used black paint on the top riser, and
brought it down so I painted the back of the slab too, maybe this would
make the riser look bigger that it really is.

I don't think the reason for tripping is a false visual cue. You
still trip on unequal risers when you can't see the steps, carrying a
large box for example.

The trip is either catching your toe on the front edge of a step when
it's fractionally higher or not contacting a solid surface when you
expect to if fractionally lower, which causes momentary panic in the
balance department.

Normal subconcious walking or ascending/decending steps is a
controlled constant fall forward, anything that upsets the timing of
contact with the ground upsets that controlled fall forward and panis
the balcnce department. If you're traversing rough ground or
obviously uneven "steps" you consiously look where you are putting
your feet...

maybe a solution would be to paint rocks on it? Joking of course.

On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Older bricks were a variety of sizes. Our local Barclays bank
was built in about 1920 something and the bricks are much slimmer.
The 1970's extension to the rear was done with modern metric bricks
and the way they have jointed new with old is awful to look at.

On 15/09/2020 03:14, wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 17:07:40 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I was thinking. maybe if I used black paint on the top riser, and
brought it down so I painted the back of the slab too, maybe this would
make the riser look bigger that it really is.

I don't think the reason for tripping is a false visual cue. You
still trip on unequal risers when you can't see the steps, carrying a
large box for example.

The trip is either catching your toe on the front edge of a step when
it's fractionally higher or not contacting a solid surface when you
expect to if fractionally lower, which causes momentary panic in the
balance department.

Normal subconcious walking or ascending/decending steps is a
controlled constant fall forward, anything that upsets the timing of
contact with the ground upsets that controlled fall forward and panis
the balcnce department. If you're traversing rough ground or
obviously uneven "steps" you consiously look where you are putting
your feet...

maybe a solution would be to paint rocks on it? Joking of course.


Glue Artificial turf all over the patio and it will raise its level
and then provide a soft landing for those that trip.:-)

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Indeed.
We don't know how big the ops bricks are, nor where his dpc is,
nor whether it is constant or stepped around the
patio...



--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 14/09/2020 18:00, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 16:35:27 +0100, nightjar wrote:

Yes, the lack of hand rail around the patio or on the steps makes
me
nervous. I wouldn't like to trip on that row of bricks and go head
first into the lawn...
....

I assumed that was the next stage of construction.

The OP said "recently" but judging by the lack of mud and complete
long grass cover right up to the retaining walls and steps "recently"
is several months ago. Ah, supposed to have been finished Oct last
year...

That patio looks as though it involved 'significant works of embanking
or terracing to support the patio', which would mean it needed planning
permission and I don't see it getting that without railings being in the
plan.

Agreed it wouldn't. If planning permission was sought. It wouldn't
occur to me that a raised patio would require planning... B-)


AIUI it's a "raised platform" (same as decking) if it's over 0.3m high
and then /not/ permitted development.

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/inf...cts/11/decking

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/09/2020 14:28, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Indeed.
We don't know how big the ops bricks are, nor where his dpc is,
nor whether it is constant or stepped around the
patio...




The photo and mention of a 'builder' suggests that modern
bricks were used though, not reclaimed old victoriana !

It's about 220mm from the DPC to the patio. There's a step between the door and the patio. We didn't want the patio any higher or it would overlook the neighbours too much.

Thanks for taking the time to do that. Very kind. What package did you use to create the drawing?

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 14:28, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Indeed.
We don't know how big the ops bricks are, nor where his dpc is,
nor whether it is constant or stepped around the
patio...




The photo and mention of a 'builder' suggests that modern
bricks were used though, not reclaimed old victoriana !


So all new bricks are the same? Dear dear
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 15/09/2020 17:56, Dave Chamberlain wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to do that. Very kind.

No probs - only took 10 - 15 mins

What package did you use to create the drawing?

Sketchup from Trimble - I still use the free 2017 "Make" version from
the end of the Google era. That runs as a standalone application.

The current free version is web based. (not tried it to be fair - it
might be ok)

https://help.sketchup.com/en/downloading-older-versions

(pretty easy to use, and loads of tutorial content on youtube etc)

I often use it when designing furniture or planning building projects.

e.g.:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...le_Concept.png
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...e_on_Patio.jpg

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...anelDetail.png
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...werCeiling.jpg

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...oardDesign.png
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...dComplete1.jpg

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...n_media_centre
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...etedAVUnit.jpg


Also for when you want to conceptualise stuff for explanation, rather
than being used as plans as such:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Roof_construction


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

The current free version is web based. (not tried it to be fair - it
might be ok)

For a web app, it's surprisingly good, but I think you can only save to
their cloud and printing is a no-no.

On 15/09/2020 17:47, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 14:28, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Indeed.
We don't know how big the ops bricks are, nor where his dpc is,
nor whether it is constant or stepped around the
patio...




The photo and mention of a 'builder' suggests that modern
bricks were used though, not reclaimed old victoriana !


So all new bricks are the same? Dear dear


All new 'common' bricks are the same size, though not the
same finish, or classification (engineering bricks).

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 17:47, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 14:28, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Indeed.
We don't know how big the ops bricks are, nor where his dpc is,
nor whether it is constant or stepped around the
patio...




The photo and mention of a 'builder' suggests that modern
bricks were used though, not reclaimed old victoriana !


So all new bricks are the same? Dear dear


All new 'common' bricks are the same size, though not the
same finish, or classification (engineering bricks).


Never been to a brick library then?
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 16/09/2020 20:31, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 17:47, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 14:28, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Indeed.
We don't know how big the ops bricks are, nor where his dpc is,
nor whether it is constant or stepped around the
patio...




The photo and mention of a 'builder' suggests that modern
bricks were used though, not reclaimed old victoriana !


So all new bricks are the same? Dear dear


All new 'common' bricks are the same size, though not the
same finish, or classification (engineering bricks).


Never been to a brick library then?


ever been to a builders merchant ?. All you will find
is common 'standard' bricks, which is what that house
or extension and patio is clearly built with.

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 16/09/2020 20:31, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 17:47, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 15/09/2020 14:28, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 20:05, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:56, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 14/09/2020 15:22, Jimk wrote:
Andrew Wrote in message:
On 13/09/2020 23:11, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2020 17:41, wrote:
I've recently had a patio built by a builder. It has a set of steps
down to the grass, and lots of people trip when coming up the steps.
The problem seems to be that the top step's rise is smaller than the
others. People (me included) seem to trip on the second-to-top step.
I guess our brains are looking ahead and see the rise of the top step
and assume that the one below is going to be the same.

Here's a pictu https://photos.app.goo.gl/1SUv6YLcxVUg1KCe7


Not surprising people are tripping... Really the rise on any staircase
should be the same on every step. You can get away with a difference
with the step onto the grass, since you are changing surfaces quite
dramatically, and that makes you navigate that one differently.

The question is, except for rebuilding the steps, is there anything I
can do to try to trick the brain into not making that assumption. As
you can see from the picture, it would be a lot of work to rebuild
them!

If you want least amount of work, then I would suggest:

Add an additional course of bricks[1] to the top of all three steps -
leaving the existing slabs there. Place the bricks so that they are
flush with the edge of the slab. Then add an additional slab on top. Set
the mortar bed thickness so that the top step comes out exactly level
with the patio (i.e it becomes a small landing rather than a step as such).

The rise will increase on the step adjacent to the grass - which if you
are going to have a change in rise, is probably the safest place for
it), then the other rises would be equal.

I would go for a contrasting colour brick to make a decorative feature
of the top of each step - say a dark grey or buff brick sandwiched
between the light grey slabs. Keeping the bricks flush with the slabs
creates the look of a step with a heavy nosing, rather than a step with
a pair of thin nosings.



The whole patio is too low surely ?. It's almost three courses of bricks
below the DPC of the house. If the patio was at the correct height
then all four 'goings'?? would be equal.


how high against the house wall dpc have you built your patio?


Two brick courses down is the usual distance, though these days
where bi-fold doors seem to be the rage, many people seem to have
their patio at the same height as the house floor, and rely on
a run of acco-drain to keep water out of the house.


When you build yours maybe consider...

"The Building Regulations require at least 150mm between the dpc
and the ground or any paving."


Two brick courses is about 150mm. That photo shows three brick courses.
Part M says front paths have to be level with top of cill, which
all the new houses I have seen seem to comply with.


What size bricks tho?


Aren't modern metric bricks 65mm high ?. Two courses and two
courses of mortar at about 10mm makes your 150mm.
Three courses plus mortar = one course of blockwork (plus mortar)

Indeed.
We don't know how big the ops bricks are, nor where his dpc is,
nor whether it is constant or stepped around the
patio...




The photo and mention of a 'builder' suggests that modern
bricks were used though, not reclaimed old victoriana !


So all new bricks are the same? Dear dear


All new 'common' bricks are the same size, though not the
same finish, or classification (engineering bricks).


Never been to a brick library then?


ever been to a builders merchant ?. All you will find
is common 'standard' bricks, which is what that house
or extension and patio is clearly built with.


You are guessing & googling....
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 16/09/2020 20:03, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

The current free version is web based. (not tried it to be fair - it
might be ok)

For a web app, it's surprisingly good, but I think you can only save to
their cloud and printing is a no-no.

Do you know if you can you round trip files with the desktop one?

(or even download from the web app for that matter?)

TBF, if starting again, it would probably be better to learn Fusion 360
since there is a "free for hobbyists" version of that.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

For a web app, [sketchup free is] surprisingly good, but I think you can only save
to their cloud and printing is a no-no.

Do you know if you can you round trip files with the desktop one?
(or even download from the web app for that matter?)

You can download in .skp .dwg/dxf .png .stl .3ds plus several more formats

Looks like printing may have improved too, I'll try it to PDF with a
proper scaled plan and see how it does now. I do have a paid sketchup
licence but I don't think the import/export features of the web version
are conditional on that?

TBF, if starting again, it would probably be better to learn Fusion 360
since there is a "free for hobbyists" version of that.

John Rumm wrote:

if starting again, it would probably be better to learn Fusion 360 since
there is a "free for hobbyists" version of that.

Limitations coming in from 1st October?

On 18/09/2020 19:10, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

if starting again, it would probably be better to learn Fusion 360
since there is a "free for hobbyists" version of that.

Limitations coming in from 1st October?

Don't know, but a quick looks suggests that the free for hoby use has
now become a "personal" license that is "free for one year" - so
presumably they want money after that. (or you need to sign up for
another free one under a different ID!)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

a quick looks suggests that the free for hoby use has
now become a "personal" license that is "free for one year" - so
presumably they want money after that.

One well-known maker suggesting export all your models to .STP files
now, while you still can.