Hi there, a question for the much-esteemed regs please.....

Do the new regs for window replacement mean that DIY is effectively
illegal now?
(eg http://www.bexley.gov.uk/service/pla...l/windows.html )

"Steve Walker" wrote
| Hi there, a question for the much-esteemed regs please.....
| Do the new regs for window replacement mean that DIY is
| effectively illegal now?
| (eg http://www.bexley.gov.uk/service/pla...l/windows.html )

DIY is not illegal, you just have to pay the council for a certificate.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Steve Walker" wrote
| Hi there, a question for the much-esteemed regs please.....
| Do the new regs for window replacement mean that DIY is
| effectively illegal now?
| (eg http://www.bexley.gov.uk/service/pla...l/windows.html )

DIY is not illegal, you just have to pay the council for a certificate.

Owain

This is the first time I've heard of this, is it nationwide?

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Steve Walker" wrote
| Hi there, a question for the much-esteemed regs please.....
| Do the new regs for window replacement mean that DIY is
| effectively illegal now?
| (eg http://www.bexley.gov.uk/service/pla...l/windows.html )

DIY is not illegal, you just have to pay the council for a certificate.

Owain

This is the first time I've heard of this, is it nationwide?

Does Scotland have the same regulations?

Sheila

Do the new regs for window replacement mean that DIY is effectively
illegal now?

Local Council Building Control charge for a cert of compliance. They come
out to inspect the windows before and after replacement and then issue a
cert. (AFAIK)

I did ask them (very early on) why they needed a pre visit and they
mentioned maintaining window openings for fire regs or some such reason. Not
part of the remitt I would have thought. Can anyone confirm this. Also they
mentioned inspection fee of £60.

This covers door replacement as well if the glass is 50% or over total area.
The good news is that you can replace garage and shed windows with whatever
you like

Also said it was not an inspection of the quality of the work. Only that the
windows were "Part L". A 2" gap round the frames would not stop the issue of
a cert.!

God help us. What a total waste of time and money. What next.

Firms having FENSA registered, means that they can replace windows and they
issue their own certification as to compliance.

Scotland will have the same regs but probably not named "part L"





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sid wrote:

God help us. What a total waste of time and money. What next.

Firms having FENSA registered, means that they can replace windows and
they issue their own certification as to compliance.

Yes, this new procedure rather struck me to be a coup by a trade
association with an obvious vested interest. What next? I predict
that the British Association of Gardeners will lobby for a similar
approval process re lawn-mowing. Householders wishing to do this
themselves (and thus deprive decent BAG members of rightful employment)
will be obliged to fill out forms, pay fees and submit to
inspections....

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message news:2f63938745bfc64876b106575b9d142a.45219@mygat e.mailgate.org...
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net

DIY is not illegal, you just have to pay the council for a certificate.

Owain

This is the first time I've heard of this, is it nationwide?

Mary

And has it been tested at law?

Although it is against the law, I would have thought it highly
unlikely that you would be prosecuted.....How will the council find
out?

However the real issue will be when you come to sell your house, as
one of the questions you will be asked will be whether you have had
any alterations done and whether you have the appropriate plannings
and building permits. In my last house we had our garage converted
into a room, believing that we didn't need planning permission. When
we came to sell it was a real problem getting retrospective
permission.

Steve Walker wrote:

Yes, this new procedure rather struck me to be a coup by a trade
association with an obvious vested interest. What next?

Part P, that's what's next. Grrr.

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

Yes, this new procedure rather struck me to be a coup by a trade
association with an obvious vested interest. What next?

Part P, that's what's next. Grrr.

So the sparkies have got the fix in too, eh?
Another 20 years and DIY will be practically illegal.

In message , Steve Walker
writes
Andy Wade wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

Yes, this new procedure rather struck me to be a coup by a trade
association with an obvious vested interest. What next?

Part P, that's what's next. Grrr.

So the sparkies have got the fix in too, eh?
Another 20 years and DIY will be practically illegal.

Which will make for a thriving black market

--
geoff

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...


So the sparkies have got the fix in too, eh?
Another 20 years and DIY will be practically illegal.


as if we wanted the extra hassle.

loz

"S Viemeister" wrote
| Mary Fisher wrote:
| "Owain" wrote
| "Steve Walker" wrote
| | Hi there, a question for the much-esteemed regs please.....
| | Do the new regs for window replacement mean that DIY is
| | effectively illegal now?
| | (eg
http://www.bexley.gov.uk/service/pla...l/windows.html )
| DIY is not illegal, you just have to pay the council for a
certificate.
| This is the first time I've heard of this, is it nationwide?

For England and Wales, yes.

| Does Scotland have the same regulations?

Not as far as I can see.

According to the Replacement Windows Advice Note (my emphases) for
Edinburgh,
http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/bca...nt_Windows.pdf
"A building warrant is NOT needed if you are removing a window and
installing a new one in the same opening. However, if the window is not a
'like for like'replacement you MUST make sure that the new window complies
with the Building Standards (Scotland) Regulations. You also NEED a building
warrant if you have to do other work, such as removing a mullion (the
vertical divide between windows), or altering a neighbouring section of
wall.
There are many regulations relating to windows, and they can be
complicated. You should get reliable advice, or a written statement saying
that the new windows will comply with the regulations, from someone
experienced such as your architect, builder or window manufacturer. The
regulations deal with a variety of points including the following examples.
Fitness of materials and standard of workmanship - The windows must be
fitted properly using suitable materials and there should be no leaks or
draughts.
General safety - The window must be fixed securely to the building and must
not endanger passers-by when open.
Emergency escape - Buildings have to be constructed with escape routes in
case of a fire. In certain residential buildings with only one escape route,
there must be emergency windows that give you an alternative escape route.
The regulations explain which buildings, where these windows are required
and window sizes.
Daylight - Certain sizes (measured in 'glazed area') are needed for
different rooms. As lighting accounts for up to 15% of electricity used in
the home, make the most of daylight.
Ventilation - Windows provide essential ventilation, particularly in
kitchens, bathrooms and shower-rooms. The regulations identify the type
(permanent or adjustable) and amount needed in different places. Heating
installations A room or space containing a fixed heating installation (eg
solid fuel, oil-fired or gas-fired) must have permanent ventilation, often
from a vent in a window. This must be taken into account when replacing
windows. The regulations describe the amount of ventilation needed.
Cleaning - To avoid accidents, it is important that any windows more than 4
metres (13 feet) high can be cleaned safely from inside or from a window
access system. Windows above stairs to flats or in a common entrance hall
can be cleaned from a ladder, as long as the window is not more than 9
metres (29 feet 6 inches) above the ground or a suitable load-bearing
surface.
You must install energy efficient double or triple glazing for all
replacement windows, this is now a compulsory requirement under building
regulations .

The PDF also notes:

You may need Feu Superior's Consent before making any alterations, the
grounds of the property. Consent is needed from the Council for alterations
to property previously owned by the Council, or property that has been built
on ground that was previously owned by the Council.

There is also a note that Planning or Conservation Area consents are a
different matter.

And summarised at
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/CEC/Prop.../BWpossnotrequ
ired.html
Replacement Windows - You need a Building Warrant if it is necessary to do
other works, for example removing a mullion or altering an adjacent section
of wall. You may need to have your replacement windows checked when you want
to sell your house. There is a charge for this service.

Also note in contrast to England's Part L:

All new heat producing appliances do NOT need a Building Warrant and
Completion Certificate but MUST comply with the relevant Building
Regulations if it is proposed to install a different type of appliance.
A chimney, flue pipe and hearth associated with an appliance does need a
Building Warrant.

Owain

I did a Google on Window replacement legislations and came up with:

That Health & Safety Executive legislation now requires that
ANYONE who can potentially fall more than 2metres whilst working
should be provided with and use a fall arrest protection system!

See: http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/

Mary

That Health & Safety Executive legislation now requires that
ANYONE who can potentially fall more than 2metres whilst working
should be provided with and use a fall arrest protection system!

So this is why "they" can't fix the leaks on the flat roof of my single story
office, having run out of money in the scaffolding budget.....(world's gone
mad)

That Health & Safety Executive legislation now requires that
ANYONE who can potentially fall more than 2metres whilst working
should be provided with and use a fall arrest protection system!

I think it depends on how long they`re expecting to work at height. ISTR
anything less than 15 minutes doesn`t fall under this legislation (no pun
intended)

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

In message , Mary
Fisher writes

I did a Google on Window replacement legislations and came up with:

That Health & Safety Executive legislation now requires that
ANYONE who can potentially fall more than 2metres whilst working
should be provided with and use a fall arrest protection system!

See: http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/

So I broke the law today then

--
geoff

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:49:57 +0100, "Steve Walker"
wrote:

Andy Wade wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

Yes, this new procedure rather struck me to be a coup by a trade
association with an obvious vested interest. What next?

Part P, that's what's next. Grrr.

So the sparkies have got the fix in too, eh?
Another 20 years and DIY will be practically illegal.



Absolutely.

Have a look at the sanctimonious claptrap from the Institute of
Plumbing and Heating Engineers (Institute of Plumbers as was).

http://www.iphe.org.uk/consumer/diydangers.html


According to them:

"Putting up a couple of shelves is one thing, but trying a bit of DIY
on your plumbing system can not only be dangerous and expensive, but
could also drop you in hot water with the law! "


This is a real joke when one reads this in their How to Join section:
"
Q: I'm a working plumber - will my work be inspected?


A: If you don’t have formal qualifications, we can accept practical
experience instead, together with suitable references from others in
the profession. In some cases we may ask one of our Professional
Standards Inspectors to assess your work.
"

The reality is that all of these self certification schemes are a
means for the government to keep tabs on tradespeople for
administrative (i.e. tax) purposes.

There is absolutely no way that the resources are in place at the
nominated enforcing bodies (i.e. local authority building control) to
police any of this stuff.

It's regulation for its own sake, and poorly done.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Owain wrote:

"S Viemeister" wrote

| Does Scotland have the same regulations?

Not as far as I can see.

According to the Replacement Windows Advice Note (my emphases) for
Edinburgh,
http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/bca...nt_Windows.pdf

(snipped useful information)

Thanks, Owain. Filed for future use.

I would imagine that Highland would have similar regulations to Edinburgh?

Sheila

"S Viemeister" wrote
| According to the Replacement Windows Advice Note (my emphases) for
| Edinburgh,
| http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/bca...nt_Windows.pdf
| I would imagine that Highland would have similar regulations to Edinburgh?

It's the same law. I copied Edinburgh because their website's got more
useful information than most. If anything, Ebr's requirements are likely to
be stricter because of conservation area status.

Of course, it's always possible that Highland have some idiosyncracies, like
all ground floor windows having to be narrower than a coo's horns.

Owain

TimD wrote:

Although it is against the law, I would have thought it highly
unlikely that you would be prosecuted.....How will the council find
out?

a busybody neighbour perhaps...

However the real issue will be when you come to sell your house, as
one of the questions you will be asked will be whether you have had
any alterations done and whether you have the appropriate plannings
and building permits. In my last house we had our garage converted

Since I would expect the majority of people will know nothing about this
legislation and its requirements, chances are they would in all good
faith answer such questions assuming changing a window would not be
included. Much will depend on how specific the solicitors are in
phrasing the questions while conveyancing I guess.

Those who do know about such things are likely to keep schtum, or have a
slight error in recollection of when the window was installed! ;-)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Owain wrote:

Of course, it's always possible that Highland have some idiosyncracies, like
all ground floor windows having to be narrower than a coo's horns.

That wouldn't be necessary in my area. Our feu charter requires that we
maintain coo-proof fencing and/or walls all around the property.

Sheila

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 00:24:08 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"S Viemeister" wrote
| According to the Replacement Windows Advice Note (my emphases) for
| Edinburgh,
| http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/bca...nt_Windows.pdf
| I would imagine that Highland would have similar regulations to Edinburgh?

It's the same law. I copied Edinburgh because their website's got more
useful information than most. If anything, Ebr's requirements are likely to
be stricter because of conservation area status.

Of course, it's always possible that Highland have some idiosyncracies, like
all ground floor windows having to be narrower than a coo's horns.

Owain


But if it's a Highland Coo, this should not be a problem.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , John
Rumm wrote:
Since I would expect the majority of people will know nothing about
this legislation and its requirements, chances are they would in all
good faith answer such questions assuming changing a window would
not be included. Much will depend on how specific the solicitors are
in phrasing the questions while conveyancing I guess.

Those who do know about such things are likely to keep schtum, or
have a slight error in recollection of when the window was installed!

The questionnaire that the vendor has to complete has (on the couple
I've seen anyway) a very specific question on replacement windows, and
it has been reported that most/all new d.g. units have the date inside
them. You could claim that it was a 2002 window but during 2004 the boy
next door broke all three panes with his cricket balls ....

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm


If we're talking upvc windows - there is usually no date printed on the
frame. I was at a window factory on Friday and had a good look at the
extrusions delivered from one of the big profile manufacturers. On each 8m
length of plastic, the date was only printed once - even if you ended up
with a window showing this, it wipes off with white spirit (and what
surveyor is going to take out your sealed units anyway?)

As for the sealed units having dates printed on the spacer bars, some do
some don't. The particular fabricator I was at was happy to leave the dates
off, if required for 'neatness'.

But seeing as you are allowed to replace sealed units without regs
approval - who's to say that you're not just an energy conscious citizen who
changed all his units to K glass as you heard it was good on the TV?

Alex

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
Owain wrote:

Of course, it's always possible that Highland have some idiosyncracies,
like
all ground floor windows having to be narrower than a coo's horns.

That wouldn't be necessary in my area. Our feu charter requires that we
maintain coo-proof fencing and/or walls all around the property.

Sheila

Wherebouts are you, Sheila?

Mary

In article , John
Rumm wrote:
Since I would expect the majority of people will know nothing about
this legislation and its requirements, chances are they would in all
good faith answer such questions assuming changing a window would
not be included. Much will depend on how specific the solicitors are
in phrasing the questions while conveyancing I guess.

Those who do know about such things are likely to keep schtum, or
have a slight error in recollection of when the window was installed!

The questionnaire that the vendor has to complete has (on the couple
I've seen anyway) a very specific question on replacement windows, and
it has been reported that most/all new d.g. units have the date inside
them. You could claim that it was a 2002 window but during 2004 the boy
next door broke all three panes with his cricket balls ....

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary
Fisher writes

I did a Google on Window replacement legislations and came up with:

That Health & Safety Executive legislation now requires that
ANYONE who can potentially fall more than 2metres whilst working
should be provided with and use a fall arrest protection system!

See: http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/

So I broke the law today then

We do it every day. I suppose Spouse had a fall arrest protection system
when picking apples yesterday - but would H&SE accept that tree branches
were such a system? Or the banister on our staircase ... ? I can see a
window cleaner up a ladder on a neighbour's house as I type ...

Mary

--
geoff

Mary Fisher wrote:

Wherebouts are you, Sheila?

The north coast of Sutherland.

Sheila

In article , Alex wrote:
But seeing as you are allowed to replace sealed units without regs
approval - who's to say that you're not just an energy conscious
citizen who changed all his units to K glass as you heard it was
good on the TV?

What it comes down to is that you can't have it both ways: if you're
selling without paperwork you have to say that the windows were done
pre-2003 and you don't have any documents or guarantee ... which may
or may not affect the buyer's enthusiasm/offer.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

John Rumm wrote in message ...
TimD wrote:

Although it is against the law, I would have thought it highly
unlikely that you would be prosecuted.....How will the council find
out?

a busybody neighbour perhaps...

However the real issue will be when you come to sell your house, as
one of the questions you will be asked will be whether you have had
any alterations done and whether you have the appropriate plannings
and building permits. In my last house we had our garage converted

Since I would expect the majority of people will know nothing about this
legislation and its requirements, chances are they would in all good
faith answer such questions assuming changing a window would not be
included. Much will depend on how specific the solicitors are in
phrasing the questions while conveyancing I guess.

Those who do know about such things are likely to keep schtum, or have a
slight error in recollection of when the window was installed! ;-)


Sealed units are often (always?) date stamped so there can be little argument.

MBQ

Tony Bryer wrote:

What it comes down to is that you can't have it both ways: if you're
selling without paperwork you have to say that the windows were done
pre-2003 and you don't have any documents or guarantee ... which may
or may not affect the buyer's enthusiasm/offer.

Of you could be "up front" and say they were DIYed in 2002+n to all the
required standards (as inspecting them will show), but there is no
paperwork or BCO approval. You have no intention of getting it
retrospectively, so, if you like the house, stop making a fuss over
nothing and buy the sodding thing anyway!

(all assuming it is still a sellers market!)

;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

MBQ wrote:

Sealed units are often (always?) date stamped so there can be little argument.

You can replace a sealed unit and still not be affected by the regs
IIUC. It is only replacement of the whole window that counts.

Much of this discussion also depends on how many windows you are
replacing. If you are replacing one small window at a total cost of
under 100 quid, then you could argue that paying as much again to have a
BCO look at it is a large unnecesary expense. If you are paying several
thousand for a whole house full of windows then the cost of the BCO is
not as significant.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Wherebouts are you, Sheila?

The north coast of Sutherland.

Oh. We're going up to Jill's soon but I think Sutherland's too far from Oban
to drop in on you ... another time perhaps.

Mary

Sheila

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
MBQ wrote:

Sealed units are often (always?) date stamped so there can be little
argument.

You can replace a sealed unit and still not be affected by the regs
IIUC. It is only replacement of the whole window that counts.

Do you mean the frame?

What if you make your own frames? It's what we've always done.

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:

You can replace a sealed unit and still not be affected by the regs
IIUC. It is only replacement of the whole window that counts.


Do you mean the frame?

In effect yes. You can replace the glass, and or repair a frame without
regs requirement.

What if you make your own frames? It's what we've always done.

I would expect you would need to comply, unless you can count the work
as a repair of an existing one....

(i.e. I have repaird the existing frame by replacing all the wood and
all the fixings ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Mary Fisher wrote:

Oh. We're going up to Jill's soon but I think Sutherland's too far from Oban

Oban, my favourite single malt ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"
That Health & Safety Executive legislation now requires that
ANYONE who can potentially fall more than 2metres whilst working
should be provided with and use a fall arrest protection system!

See: http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/

Mary

That applies to Heatlth and Safety at work. Not to DIY.






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Mary Fisher wrote:

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Wherebouts are you, Sheila?

The north coast of Sutherland.

Oh. We're going up to Jill's soon but I think Sutherland's too far from Oban
to drop in on you ... another time perhaps.

When will you be there?
I expect to be with family in Edinburgh until the middle of the month.

Sheila

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Oh. We're going up to Jill's soon but I think Sutherland's too far from
Oban

Oban, my favourite single malt ;-)

Mine's Ardbeg.

Mary


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Wherebouts are you, Sheila?

The north coast of Sutherland.

Oh. We're going up to Jill's soon but I think Sutherland's too far from
Oban
to drop in on you ... another time perhaps.

When will you be there?
I expect to be with family in Edinburgh until the middle of the month.

I'll be at the Batle of Bannockburn on 18/19 September, go to Jill's on
20th, probably for a week.

Mary

Sheila

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

You can replace a sealed unit and still not be affected by the regs
IIUC. It is only replacement of the whole window that counts.


Do you mean the frame?

In effect yes. You can replace the glass, and or repair a frame without
regs requirement.

What if you make your own frames? It's what we've always done.

I would expect you would need to comply, unless you can count the work
as a repair of an existing one....

(i.e. I have repaird the existing frame by replacing all the wood and
all the fixings ;-)

Exactly.

I don't anticipate having to do it again before we leave here in our boxes
but you never know, the Grim Reaper might not want us.

Or one of us ... :-)

Mary


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/