I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time I
looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off two 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:02:14 +0100, AJH
wrote:

I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time I
looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off two 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

As long as you are somewhere near the voltage and capacity of the
original battery I can't see it being an issue (with it not offering
similar , if not better, deeper DOD on Nicad, MiMH or Lithium
technology) performance).

Obviously you will need to use a suitable charger. ;-)

If that doesn't work, could you just mount 3 suitable LA batteries
NP7-12) in a fabricated box on the rack or something? Some XT60
connectors and some suitable cable should do it (and you could use the
std charger). ;-)

Does your battery case have an 3 pin XLR connector on it OOI?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I had a similar issue with an old electric kids sized scooter
(our daughters) that was equipped with a 24V / 4Ah LA battery. Because
I can't find a direct replacement atm (I have seen them for sale in
Taiwan for about £15 each but don't need 50 of them!) I was going to
substitute it with 3 x 7.2v Nicad RC car packs, at least to give it a
try.

I'm not sure what the batteries are in our 26" wheel, step through
Powabyke but I don't think it's LA for some reason.

On 30/08/2020 12:26, T i m wrote:
Obviously you will need to use a suitable charger.;-)

Yes the makita charger

If that doesn't work, could you just mount 3 suitable LA batteries
NP7-12) in a fabricated box on the rack or something? Some XT60
connectors and some suitable cable should do it (and you could use the
std charger).;-)

wallwart charger that came with the bike fried itself

Does your battery case have an 3 pin XLR connector on it OOI?

The case has sprung loaded pins that make contact with the bike
electrics, they were always a problem so I was looking forward to
replacing them with Anderton connectors.

I'm not really keen on using lead acid again as the lithium ion ones
should be better and readily available plus I can use them in other
things like drills..

On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:56:24 +0100, AJH
wrote:

On 30/08/2020 12:26, T i m wrote:
Obviously you will need to use a suitable charger.;-)

Yes the makita charger

That should do it. ;-)

If that doesn't work, could you just mount 3 suitable LA batteries
NP7-12) in a fabricated box on the rack or something? Some XT60
connectors and some suitable cable should do it (and you could use the
std charger).;-)

wallwart charger that came with the bike fried itself

As they often do (often destroying the battery before they go). ;-(

Does your battery case have an 3 pin XLR connector on it OOI?

The case has sprung loaded pins that make contact with the bike
electrics, they were always a problem so I was looking forward to
replacing them with Anderton connectors.

;-)

I'm not really keen on using lead acid again as the lithium ion ones
should be better and readily available plus I can use them in other
things like drills..

Sure, if you can make additional use of said batteries and don't
damage them in the process (for their drill use etc).

But looking at any alternative to LA was just so expensive ... plus LA
is very efficiently recycled so could be better for the environment
(certainly over the heavy metal based alternatives)?

I think the source of the problem was the charger. I've just spent
over £100 on a 12/24V Optimate charger to charge / maintain the two
(24V LA) mobility scooters I'm sorting here. A worthwhile investment
when compare with the cost of having to replace quality / AGM / sealed
semi-traction batteries, ruined by poor charging or maintenance. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 30/08/2020 11:02, AJH wrote:
I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time I
looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off twoÂ* 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

Always make sure both batteries are charged the same - in practice both
fully charged - or you run the risk of reverse charging the weaker one.
I'd put a nice big diode in parallel with each battery pack just in case.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 30/08/2020 14:00, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 30/08/2020 11:02, AJH wrote:
I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time
I looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off twoÂ* 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

Always make sure both batteries are charged the same - in practice both
fully charged - or you run the risk of reverse charging the weaker one.
I'd put a nice big diode in parallel with each battery pack just in case.

The batteries will be in series so what will be the effect of a diode
across each pack?

Will the diodes from a car alternator do the job?

On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:31:35 +0100, AJH
wrote:

On 30/08/2020 14:00, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 30/08/2020 11:02, AJH wrote:
I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time
I looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off two* 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

Always make sure both batteries are charged the same - in practice both
fully charged - or you run the risk of reverse charging the weaker one.
I'd put a nice big diode in parallel with each battery pack just in case.

The batteries will be in series so what will be the effect of a diode
across each pack?

Will the diodes from a car alternator do the job?

I believe the idea is that if one battery becomes discharged, the
remaining battery(/ies) in the series link with then, though the load,
try to reverse charge the flat battery. Putting the diode in parallel
with the batteries will limit the reverse voltage across the battery
to about .6V and so minimise any deeper / further damage (than may
already be done by taking the charge to that low level).

AFAIK, the rating of the diode needs to be sufficient to safely carry
the running current produced by the remaining batteries when
delivering full (remaining-resultant) current to the load.

Cheers, T i m

On 30/08/2020 14:00, Clive Arthur wrote:
I'd put a nice big diode in parallel with each battery pack just in case.

I've never heard of anyone doing that. Either you've had a very good and
original idea or you've had a daft idea.

Bill

In message , williamwright
writes
On 30/08/2020 14:00, Clive Arthur wrote:
I'd put a nice big diode in parallel with each battery pack just in case.

I've never heard of anyone doing that. Either you've had a very good
and original idea or you've had a daft idea.

Many, many years ago, at a boot sale, I bought a 12V pack of D-size
'Cyclone' batteries (6 x 2V sealed lead-acid). Each cell had a reverse
diode soldered across it.
--
Ian

On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:24:27 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , williamwright
writes
On 30/08/2020 14:00, Clive Arthur wrote:
I'd put a nice big diode in parallel with each battery pack just in case.

I've never heard of anyone doing that. Either you've had a very good
and original idea or you've had a daft idea.

Many, many years ago, at a boot sale, I bought a 12V pack of D-size
'Cyclone' batteries (6 x 2V sealed lead-acid). Each cell had a reverse
diode soldered across it.

Which makes more sense of course because a 'battery' could have a weak
cell and so you could still end up reverse charging one (or more)
cells within it, even with the diode across the battery.

Cheers, T i m

AJH wrote:
I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time I
looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off two 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

The main issue is likely to be current draw. A drill under load has to push
a small amount of (quite resistant) wood or plaster around. A bike has to
push a ~100kg lump up to 15mph. Expect gulps of ~30A as it accelerates. If
the bike is pure pedelec (ie no twist-and-go) it will be a bit easier as
there is some human input, especially from rest which is the most taxing bit
of the curve.

I'd check what current the drill batteries expect to deliver. You might be
OK, but many 18650 cells aren't rated at that kind of current level. This
is why many e-bike batteries put cells in parallel to carry the load.
The parallel cells provide a higher capacity as well, compared with say a
18V 2Ah drill battery which is just 5 series cells (5S1P).

You might find a 2P/3P/4P battery pack is better at delivering current, but
that might not be something available in drill packs.

Also, be wary of the controller if it has any 'low battery' sensing. It
might decide to cut off if it thinks its lead acid is too discharged. A
quick sum suggests a 10S lithium ion bottom end would be about 32V, while a
18S lead acid bottom end would be about 33V. You might not get the last
capacity out but it looks fairly well matched, although I couldn't speak for
whatever your example actually does.

No harm in trying it and see though. I have one of these power meters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp2wDAfC1k
(about 20 quid on ebay, different versions now available)
which is handy for seeing what's going on.

Theo

On 31/08/2020 10:17, Theo wrote:
AJH wrote:
I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time I
looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off two 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

The main issue is likely to be current draw. A drill under load has to push
a small amount of (quite resistant) wood or plaster around. A bike has to
push a ~100kg lump up to 15mph. Expect gulps of ~30A as it accelerates. If
the bike is pure pedelec (ie no twist-and-go) it will be a bit easier as
there is some human input, especially from rest which is the most taxing bit
of the curve.

I'd check what current the drill batteries expect to deliver. You might be
OK, but many 18650 cells aren't rated at that kind of current level. This
is why many e-bike batteries put cells in parallel to carry the load.
The parallel cells provide a higher capacity as well, compared with say a
18V 2Ah drill battery which is just 5 series cells (5S1P).

You might find a 2P/3P/4P battery pack is better at delivering current, but
that might not be something available in drill packs.

Also, be wary of the controller if it has any 'low battery' sensing. It
might decide to cut off if it thinks its lead acid is too discharged. A
quick sum suggests a 10S lithium ion bottom end would be about 32V, while a
18S lead acid bottom end would be about 33V. You might not get the last
capacity out but it looks fairly well matched, although I couldn't speak for
whatever your example actually does.

No harm in trying it and see though. I have one of these power meters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp2wDAfC1k
(about 20 quid on ebay, different versions now available)
which is handy for seeing what's going on.

Theo

Just buy some lithium power packs for model usage. Or for car starting.
They can handle enormous peak current loads.
An electric bike normally is around 200W with peaks up to 400 or so.
36V is 10s LiPo or thereabouts. You probably want about 4Ah.


Ok this looks close enough at at a fair price and in stock in the UK

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-co...pack-xt90.html

Voltage will peak out at 42V same as 3 x 14V lead acid.

25C means its capable of 100A for short periods.

It weighs less than a kg...

The charging will be something you will need to attend to with a special
charger


--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 31 Aug 2020 10:17:52 +0100 (BST)
Theo wrote:

Expect gulps of ~30A as it accelerates. If
the bike is pure pedelec (ie no twist-and-go) it will be a bit easier as
there is some human input, especially from rest which is the most taxing
bit of the curve.

I'd check what current the drill batteries expect to deliver. You might
be OK, but many 18650 cells aren't rated at that kind of current level.

The cells made for nicotine vaporisers are often rated for that
kind of current (35A is about the heaviest). Around 500W is not an unusual
peak draw for a power drill (almost stalling) so those cells should be good
for peaks of 25A.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

On Sunday, 30 August 2020 12:26:41 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:02:14 +0100, AJH
wrote:

I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time I
looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off two 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

As long as you are somewhere near the voltage and capacity of the
original battery I can't see it being an issue (with it not offering
similar , if not better, deeper DOD on Nicad, MiMH or Lithium
technology) performance).

Obviously you will need to use a suitable charger. ;-)

If that doesn't work, could you just mount 3 suitable LA batteries
NP7-12) in a fabricated box on the rack or something? Some XT60
connectors and some suitable cable should do it (and you could use the
std charger). ;-)

Does your battery case have an 3 pin XLR connector on it OOI?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I had a similar issue with an old electric kids sized scooter
(our daughters) that was equipped with a 24V / 4Ah LA battery. Because
I can't find a direct replacement atm (I have seen them for sale in
Taiwan for about �15 each but don't need 50 of them!) I was going to
substitute it with 3 x 7.2v Nicad RC car packs, at least to give it a
try.

I'm not sure what the batteries are in our 26" wheel, step through
Powabyke but I don't think it's LA for some reason.


NP is the wrong type of lead acid, they don't last well in such use. OP would need to use something intended for golf carts or mobility scooters.

No way is the OP paying £200 for 7Ah of LA, unless they have no idea what they're doing. £200 for 3 lead acids would buy what... dunno but maybe 50Ah or so. Lithium is always going to cost more per Ah than LA.


NT

wrote:
No way is the OP paying £200 for 7Ah of LA, unless they have no idea what
they're doing. £200 for 3 lead acids would buy what... dunno but maybe
50Ah or so. Lithium is always going to cost more per Ah than LA.

The Powabyke batteries can be opened up and the SLA batteries replaced
(usually 3x 12V) - they're just regular Yuasa/etc. However an e-bike with a
lead acid battery is a fairly dismal experience - lightweight lithium ion
will make it much nippier and more manoeurvable.

Theo

Theo wrote:
wrote:
No way is the OP paying £200 for 7Ah of LA, unless they have no idea what
they're doing. £200 for 3 lead acids would buy what... dunno but maybe
50Ah or so. Lithium is always going to cost more per Ah than LA.

The Powabyke batteries can be opened up and the SLA batteries replaced
(usually 3x 12V) - they're just regular Yuasa/etc. However an e-bike with a
lead acid battery is a fairly dismal experience - lightweight lithium ion
will make it much nippier and more manoeurvable.

Theo

https://powabyke.com/category/uncategorised/

36v 15.6amp Lithium battery

Suitable for all recent models
Suitable for older models as supplied with rail and base plate
40-50 mile range**

SRP £479 === nippier

Come to think of it, that's enough money to have bought my
current (human powered) bicycle.

"When I grow up, I want to be a lithium battery merchant."
Sees to be a fat profit available.

Paul

On 01/09/2020 00:31, Theo wrote:
wrote:
No way is the OP paying £200 for 7Ah of LA, unless they have no idea what
they're doing. £200 for 3 lead acids would buy what... dunno but maybe
50Ah or so. Lithium is always going to cost more per Ah than LA.

The Powabyke batteries can be opened up and the SLA batteries replaced
(usually 3x 12V) - they're just regular Yuasa/etc. However an e-bike with a
lead acid battery is a fairly dismal experience - lightweight lithium ion
will make it much nippier and more manoeurvable.

Theo

Yes the sla battery is rated at 12Ah and 36V with three in series so
about £115. The biggest Makita drill battery is 5Ah and two of them come
in about 100 quid. The Natural philosopher's link is a 36V battery and
4Ah for 75quid but I would need a separate charger.

I'm not sure how one can relate the usable capacity of a lead acid to a
lipoly i.e. how many Watt hours would I be able to draw out of either
battery to a non damaging depth of discharge.

On Tuesday, 1 September 2020 22:04:07 UTC+1, AJH wrote:
On 01/09/2020 00:31, Theo wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:

No way is the OP paying £200 for 7Ah of LA, unless they have no idea what
they're doing. £200 for 3 lead acids would buy what... dunno but maybe
50Ah or so. Lithium is always going to cost more per Ah than LA.

The Powabyke batteries can be opened up and the SLA batteries replaced
(usually 3x 12V) - they're just regular Yuasa/etc. However an e-bike with a
lead acid battery is a fairly dismal experience - lightweight lithium ion
will make it much nippier and more manoeurvable.

Theo

Yes the sla battery is rated at 12Ah and 36V with three in series so
about £115. The biggest Makita drill battery is 5Ah and two of them come
in about 100 quid. The Natural philosopher's link is a 36V battery and
4Ah for 75quid but I would need a separate charger.

I'm not sure how one can relate the usable capacity of a lead acid to a
lipoly i.e. how many Watt hours would I be able to draw out of either
battery to a non damaging depth of discharge.

I dunno where you're getting those prices, they're way OTT. Shop around & avoid the non-buggy/mobility types.

For a ballpark I recently looked at 7Ah 12v at somewhere around £15-20 each.
One can also find used lead acids at car boots for not much, if you're overly brave.


NT

AJH wrote:
On 01/09/2020 00:31, Theo wrote:
wrote:
No way is the OP paying £200 for 7Ah of LA, unless they have no idea
what
they're doing. £200 for 3 lead acids would buy what... dunno but maybe
50Ah or so. Lithium is always going to cost more per Ah than LA.

The Powabyke batteries can be opened up and the SLA batteries replaced
(usually 3x 12V) - they're just regular Yuasa/etc. However an e-bike
with a
lead acid battery is a fairly dismal experience - lightweight lithium ion
will make it much nippier and more manoeurvable.

Theo

Yes the sla battery is rated at 12Ah and 36V with three in series so
about £115. The biggest Makita drill battery is 5Ah and two of them come
in about 100 quid. The Natural philosopher's link is a 36V battery and
4Ah for 75quid but I would need a separate charger.

I'm not sure how one can relate the usable capacity of a lead acid to a
lipoly i.e. how many Watt hours would I be able to draw out of either
battery to a non damaging depth of discharge.

On an automotive battery, to achieve a large number of charge/discharge
cycles, you use about 1/4 of the amp-hours.

On Lithium, 100% of the rating is available.

The difference is the notion of safety. Lithium systems have onboard
protection against overcharge and excessive discharge. As a consequence,
the "fuel rating" in ampere hours, is a "fully usable" rating.

Whereas with Lead Acid, nothing bad happens in terms of fires or the
like, if the battery is abused. If is for the notion of a
"decent service life" that the user may wish to observe a
"no more than 1/4 of rated ampere hours" usage. This reduces
the depth of discharge and means you get more charging cycles
from them. Maybe the full charge voltage is 13.8V, and then
you stop using it at 11V. That sort of thing. The cutoff voltage
would be different for each battery chemistry and discharge
strategy.

Lead Acid Traction batteries on the other hand, are both more expensive,
and are also constructed to be less affected by
deep discharge. You can run them flat. But, if you were
to take care of them, you could likely get a good
service life from them. If your golf cart had
some sort of undervoltage lockout, it might improve
the service life.

The poor service life of my Black and Decker NiCd screwdriver,
can be directly attributed to the horrible infrastructure
support the packs received. If there was a bad design decision
they could make, they made it. They might as well have
designed the thing to use dry cells, for all the good
that NiCd would do under those working conditions.

There was a time, when the area of the bicycle frame bounded
by the two rising bars and the crossbar (a triangular area),
on an E-bike, that area was completely filled with cells. By
doing so, you could use any old crap technology you wanted,
instead of some svelte cartridges that fasten to just one bar.

A few weeks ago, I started seeing Bird scooters littering the
sidewalks here, in the downtown area.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/8/18...hare-own-price

"473Wh battery, which VanderZanden says is twice the battery power
as other e-scooters. That gives each scooter a range of up to
30 miles on a single charge."

Aha! And this is how they're getting charged. How horrible.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201902/...r-charger.html

"Birds must be collected and recharged every night. Bird pays
from $5 to $20 per scooter per charge, depending on how difficult
it is to locate it and how much juice it needs. In every
Bird city, an army of freelance subcontractors is enlisted
to collect e-scooters, starting at 9 p.m. (Lime has a similar model.)
The recharged Birds are redeployed in their designated nests
starting at 4 a.m."

Paul

On 02/09/2020 07:07, Paul wrote:
On an automotive battery, to achieve a large number of charge/discharge
cycles, you use about 1/4 of the amp-hours.

On Lithium, 100% of the rating is available.


I had a feeling that something like this may be the case, hence
wondering if a 4Ah lipoly or Liion battarry may work out cheaper and
just as good in the long run.

On 01/09/2020 23:14, wrote:
I dunno where you're getting those prices, they're way OTT. Shop around & avoid the non-buggy/mobility types.


It was a price for a Yuasa 12Ah I have found cheaper ones disappointing
when used in my jump pack

AJH wrote:
Yes the sla battery is rated at 12Ah and 36V with three in series so
about £115. The biggest Makita drill battery is 5Ah and two of them come
in about 100 quid. The Natural philosopher's link is a 36V battery and
4Ah for 75quid but I would need a separate charger.

If you don't already have batteries and aren't fussy about 'system', there
are these:
https://www.aldi.co.uk/activ-energy-...01020361477600
Switchable between 18V/5Ah and 36V/2.5Ah for £30. Chargers are another £15.

It says Samsung cells (which is good) - although in this teardown they use
LG cells:
https://youtu.be/H9Mb5_nCVeo
20A discharge rate per cell, although putting the cells in parallel would
double the current capability.

I'm not sure how one can relate the usable capacity of a lead acid to a
lipoly i.e. how many Watt hours would I be able to draw out of either
battery to a non damaging depth of discharge.

Generally with lithium ion there's not much capacity left once you hit the
bottom end, so while they still have voltage it'll sag if you pull any
current. So it's not really a problem to discharge until the BMS cuts out,
although the cycle life will be improved if you don't do that.

Theo

On 02/09/2020 09:54, Theo wrote:
If you don't already have batteries and aren't fussy about 'system', there
are these:
https://www.aldi.co.uk/activ-energy-...01020361477600
Switchable between 18V/5Ah and 36V/2.5Ah for £30. Chargers are another £15.


I had seen these but they are rated at only 2.5Ah when used in 40V mode.

Also Makita tool battery holders seem readily available as spares.

On 31/08/2020 11:21, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/08/2020 10:17, Theo wrote:
AJH wrote:
I have a 20 year old powabyke with a hub motor.

The 36V lead acid battery is us and there are some problems with the
power/speed controller. The batterry replacement was 200quid last time I
looked 5 years ago.

As Powabyke don't respond to requests at present I was wondering about
converting it to run off twoÂ* 18V makita clone drill batteries.

Are there any likely drawbacks?

The main issue is likely to be current draw.Â* A drill under load has
to push
a small amount of (quite resistant) wood or plaster around.Â* A bike
has to
push a ~100kg lump up to 15mph.Â* Expect gulps of ~30A as it
accelerates.Â* If
the bike is pure pedelec (ie no twist-and-go) it will be a bit easier as
there is some human input, especially from rest which is the most
taxing bit
of the curve.

I'd check what current the drill batteries expect to deliver.Â* You
might be
OK, but many 18650 cells aren't rated at that kind of current level.
This
is why many e-bike batteries put cells in parallel to carry the load.
The parallel cells provide a higher capacity as well, compared with say a
18V 2Ah drill battery which is just 5 series cells (5S1P).

You might find a 2P/3P/4P battery pack is better at delivering
current, but
that might not be something available in drill packs.

Also, be wary of the controller if it has any 'low battery' sensing.Â* It
might decide to cut off if it thinks its lead acid is too discharged.Â* A
quick sum suggests a 10S lithium ion bottom end would be about 32V,
while a
18S lead acid bottom end would be about 33V.Â* You might not get the last
capacity out but it looks fairly well matched, although I couldn't
speak for
whatever your example actually does.

No harm in trying it and see though. I have one of these power meters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp2wDAfC1k
(about 20 quid on ebay, different versions now available)
which is handy for seeing what's going on.

Theo

Just buy some lithium power packs for model usage. Or for car starting.
They can handle enormous peak current loads.
An electric bike normally is around 200WÂ* with peaks up to 400 or so.
36V is 10s LiPo or thereabouts. You probably want about 4Ah.


Ok this looks close enough at at a fair price and in stock in the UK

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-co...pack-xt90.html


Voltage will peak out at 42V same as 3 x 14V lead acid.

25C means its capable of 100A for short periods.

It weighs less than a kg...

The charging will be something you will need to attend to with a special
charger


What is the difference in use between li ion and lipoly?

Do the ones in the link have a batterry management built in to prevent
dangerous discharge?

On Wed, 02 Sep 2020 02:07:46 -0400, Paul
wrote:

snip

A few weeks ago, I started seeing Bird scooters littering the
sidewalks here, in the downtown area.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/8/18...hare-own-price

"473Wh battery, which VanderZanden says is twice the battery power
as other e-scooters. That gives each scooter a range of up to
30 miles on a single charge."

Interesting.

Aha! And this is how they're getting charged. How horrible.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201902/...r-charger.html

"Birds must be collected and recharged every night. Bird pays
from $5 to $20 per scooter per charge, depending on how difficult
it is to locate it and how much juice it needs. In every
Bird city, an army of freelance subcontractors is enlisted
to collect e-scooters, starting at 9 p.m. (Lime has a similar model.)
The recharged Birds are redeployed in their designated nests
starting at 4 a.m."

It sounds like a solution of sorts (a bit like selling The Big Issue
here where it gives out_of_work people an income) or collecting up
deposit paid drinks bottles when I was a kid. ;-)

Do you know the current legislation of electric scooters over there as
I think you have had the bigger Segways over there for a long time
now?

Over here they are running restricted trials of electric scooters to
run along the same sort of lines as the electric assisted cycles, but
they are still illegal to use here (public road or footpath).

However, when going out for a dog walk yesterday (with Mrs on the
mobility scooter, testing it for me and resting her arthritic foot),
we saw a couple of Police persons talking to someone outside a pub and
on the way back (3 hrs later) we saw a bigger group of Police there
again, talking to some folk ... and saw a couple of men coming along
the footpath opposite. they crossed over and scooted up to the group
of Police persons (and I think one went into the pub).

I was watching to see how the police reacted to the guys on electric
scooters on the footpath but the didn't seem to at all, making me
think they weren't bothered or that they might be undercover Police,
using scooters themselves (but I'm not sure how that might work
legally)(in a similar way to the cycle mounted Police checking on
cycle based issues).

I know of at least two people who currently regularly commute
(reasonable distances) on electric scooters and (round here anyway), I
think the mix of shared use footpaths (the footpath divided by a white
line with one part also allowing cycles, electrically assisted cycles
and push scooters etc) means that most people are used to such and
ITRW, everyone seems to get on?

I think electric scooters offer a solution not found in anything else
in that it might be easier to keep dry in normal gear when standing
(compared with cycling) and it's much easier to carry and stow (the
biggest problem in a country not typically known for actively
supporting personal transport solutions) at work (might go in a locker
etc).

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 2 September 2020 09:49:33 UTC+1, AJH wrote:
On 01/09/2020 23:14, tabbypurr wrote:

I dunno where you're getting those prices, they're way OTT. Shop around & avoid the non-buggy/mobility types.


It was a price for a Yuasa 12Ah I have found cheaper ones disappointing
when used in my jump pack

As I said it's way OTT for Yuasas.


NT

AJH wrote:
What is the difference in use between li ion and lipoly?

Lithium polymer relates to the electrolyte, lithium ion to the general
chemistry (where exactly composition can vary). Lipos are lithium ion, but
not all lithium ion are lipo. Most Lipos are in plastic cases rather than
metal cylinders. That means they're more vulnerable to mechanical damage
and thermal runaway.

Do the ones in the link have a batterry management built in to prevent
dangerous discharge?

No, and they need careful external monitoring while charging, otherwise
they might burn your house down.

Theo

T i m wrote:

I know of at least two people who currently regularly commute
(reasonable distances) on electric scooters and (round here anyway), I
think the mix of shared use footpaths (the footpath divided by a white
line with one part also allowing cycles, electrically assisted cycles
and push scooters etc) means that most people are used to such and
ITRW, everyone seems to get on?

I think electric scooters offer a solution not found in anything else
in that it might be easier to keep dry in normal gear when standing
(compared with cycling) and it's much easier to carry and stow (the
biggest problem in a country not typically known for actively
supporting personal transport solutions) at work (might go in a locker
etc).

Cheers, T i m

I'm having to remove the rental scooters from the bicycle path myself.

I suspect the people who charge them at night, are leaving
them in the wrong place on purpose. But, you cannot be
creating a safety issue and expect me to just leave
rental garbage in the path, where a regular bike rider
could fall over it. I also remove tree limbs from the
path, if I run into one.

The behavior of policemen here, is a poor proxy for "what is the law",
as they're very picky about what work they will do. Sorta like
going to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eating only roast beef
cuts and no veggies. People can skateboard where ever they want,
with little fear of a ticket. People can drive bicycles without
lights at night, and no one to stop them. At least these rental
scooters have a headlight, an achievement.

The people who ride the scooters aren't the brightest
bunch. But at least in terms of head injury rates,
Mr.C.Darwin will rapidly sort out the customer base issue
for us. Because there will be riders out there, watching
a movie on their cellphone, while driving a scooter.
So far, I've not seen any of the scooter customers
wearing a helmet. And some of the scooterettes are
coming out of pubs :-) Could they be given a
breath test ? And if so, by whom ? That policeman
who thinks he's on the trail of "gangsters" ?

Paul

On Wed, 02 Sep 2020 22:20:53 -0400, Paul
wrote:

snip

I think electric scooters offer a solution not found in anything else
in that it might be easier to keep dry in normal gear when standing
(compared with cycling) and it's much easier to carry and stow (the
biggest problem in a country not typically known for actively
supporting personal transport solutions) at work (might go in a locker
etc).


I'm having to remove the rental scooters from the bicycle path myself.

I think that's purely the problem of them being 'rental' and the
system they are using to manage them. If they had to be 'docked' or
the rental clock would carry on running I suspect there wouldn't be
the issue.

It's also a reflection of just how few people are 'conscientious
citizens' any more, at least by leaving them out of the way (but
visible for collection). Like the local supermarket that have shopping
trolleys that have a locking wheel that stops people leaving the
shopping centre with them. That wasn't brought in because of us
because we *always* took them back. It's obvious that even with the £1
'deposit', many simply cba to go back to recoup their £1 (we used to
do it before the deposit because we just do).

I suspect the people who charge them at night, are leaving
them in the wrong place on purpose.

Isn't it the *users* that leave them in the wrong place, the
'chargers' have to find them and take them back to their facility and
mains power?

But, you cannot be
creating a safety issue and expect me to just leave
rental garbage in the path, where a regular bike rider
could fall over it.

Agreed, but that also applies to litter like bottles and cans that
people seem happy to just drop. ;-(

I also remove tree limbs from the
path, if I run into one.

Or ideally, before you do. ;-)

The behavior of policemen here, is a poor proxy for "what is the law",
as they're very picky about what work they will do.

I think that's not unexpected, given most Police persons can use their
discretion and so may rate different levels of social behaviour with
such.

Like, I believe someone cycling on the pavement (any one, any age) is
committing an offence but they are 1) unlikely to report for
prosecution children (especially the very small ones) and 2) unlikely
to do much more than give an adult a warning / some education,
*unless* they were caught acting irresponsibly or actually caused
damage or harm.

Sorta like
going to an all-you-can-eat buffet and eating only roast beef
cuts and no veggies.

Sure. But that's partly their discretion, prioritising the workload as
they see best.

People can skateboard where ever they want,
with little fear of a ticket.

It seems it's even quite complex (here) if you try to pin it down.
https://play.decathlon.co.uk/article...ers-and-uk-law

I think the bigger the machine the more attention it might get from
the Police. A skateboard is mostly the rider, then a scooter, then a
cycle etc. The preliminary legal scooter rules prohibit them having a
seal or the facility to add a seat because that would further blur the
boundary between a (stand up) scooter and say and electric moped.

People can drive bicycles without
lights at night, and no one to stop them.

Nope, we see that here all the time but I've not seen anyone cycle
past a police car as such.

At least these rental
scooters have a headlight, an achievement.

Yup.

I came to a T junction (from a side road) the other night and was
stopped at the line, looking right, waiting for a gap to pull out and
go left. Every so often I'd look left, just to gauge the general
traffic flow. As I was considering pulling out I looked left again
there was an electric scooterist, by the front of my car (so nearly
in the road and facing the oncoming traffic), wearing all dark
clothing and with as tiny flashing light stuck to his clothes
somewhere (that you only saw when he moved his arm). He proceeded to
remonstrate we me, when I had just been sitting there and he had
approached me, and chosen to try to go in front rather than behind
(where there was plenty of room and the crossover ramp etc).

1) He was in the wrong legally (on a non exempt motor vehicle on the
footpath).
2) He wasn't making himself conspicuous with any suitable clothing.
3) He wasn't displaying and clearly visible light.
4) He was going to cross in front of a vehicle on the public highway.

The people who ride the scooters aren't the brightest
bunch.

This one didn't seem to be. ;-)

1) He was in the wrong legally (on a non exempt motor vehicle on the
footpath).
2) He wasn't making himself conspicuous with any suitable clothing.
3) He wasn't displaying and clearly visible light.
4) He was going to cross in front of a vehicle on the public highway.


But I think it may more typically reflect the lack of training and
testing you need to be able to use them.

But at least in terms of head injury rates,
Mr.C.Darwin will rapidly sort out the customer base issue
for us.

I'm not sure what the science is re cycle helmets?

https://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html

Similar logic with car safety belts. Drives might drive safer if there
was a 6" spike sticking out of the steering wheel. ;-)

Because there will be riders out there, watching
a movie on their cellphone, while driving a scooter.

Suicidal.

So far, I've not seen any of the scooter customers
wearing a helmet.

See above.

Personally, I wouldn't cycle / scooter without gloves, even for
recreational cyclists / children. I saw a girl come off her bike
whilst out walking the dog the other day, her head didn't hit the
ground but her hands did. Luckily I carried some first aid stuff and
was able to help her tend her wounds.

When we were touring on the tandem we did generally wear helmets
because the speeds / risks involved were much higher.

And some of the scooterettes are
coming out of pubs :-)

Over here you can still get 'done' for being 'unfit to ride through
drink or drugs' when on a bike so I'm guessing the rules would still
apply to a scooter (electric or otherwise)?

Could they be given a
breath test ? And if so, by whom ?

The Police I'm guessing?

Cheers, T i m